#dev 2024-01-12
2024-01-12 UTC
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[Al_Abut] Ooo, that closing paragraph really fired up my imagination. The idea that Meta’s just the first of the silos to engage in dialog with the larger federated community and maybe a LinkedIn might jump in next….
# [Al_Abut] If they can do it in a way that doesn’t crush the long tail of indie communities and people can hop between scales of conversation - that’s really interesting.
# [snarfed] unrelated minor nit, seems low key surprising that http://plasticbag.org doesn't serve SSL
# [Joe_Crawford] ssl is overrated. it's become straightforward to provide but I still am skeptical about the _necessity_ of it for every site
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rubenwardy the fact it stops dodgy isps/public wifi injecting ads onto my site is enough for me
# rubenwardy or manipulating my content in other ways
# rubenwardy just the browser left _glances at brave_
# [snarfed] the minimal baseline argument for SSL on every site is, it helps protect your visitors' privacy, especially those in oppressive regimes for whom even visiting seemingly innocuous sites like http://plasticbag.org may in some cases bring them unwanted scrutiny
# [Joe_Crawford] It's a good point. I'll admit to a certain reluctance because of just how many hours of my life have been ruined because of cert that was not renewed, incorrectly installed, not paid for, etc etc. The stove what burnt me, I suppose.
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[tantek] I mean rather than repeating already documented arguments for SSL / HTTPS: https://indieweb.org/HTTPS#Why
# [tantek] [snarfed] you may find this blog post interesting only from the perspective of the continued confusion / assumptions that some folks seem to have about blogs / Mastodon instances being fundamentally "different" somehow, rather than blogs "just" being more instances on the fediverse: https://bix.blog/2024/01/11/activitypub-is-to-the-indieweb-as-a-i-is-to-silicon-valley/
# starrwulfe Beat me to it. But unlike AI, ActivityPub (and ATProto if they can sell its merits) isn't a solution waiting for a problem.
# [snarfed] on a related note, I shipped the Automated label and disclaimer links on BF profiles that haven't explicitly opted in, eg https://indieweb.social/@nature.com@web.brid.gy (requires login)
# [tantek] ok I found the 🍿 https://mastodon.social/@fraying@xoxo.zone/111734925045732930
# [tantek] Oh I see a VERY GOOD POINT from Derek among the 🍿 — when someone makes a presumably local comment on your blog THEY DO NOT EXPECT their comment to be federated. Full stop. The UX of blogs DOES NOT imply federation from 3rd party participants in any way whatsoever so making that happen by default is very much a violation of the UX maxim of "don't surprise the user"
# rubenwardy this is why I don't backfeed comments
# rubenwardy oh wait nevermind, that's the other way around
# [tantek] https://mastodon.social/@fraying@xoxo.zone/111739076924846008 is illustrative
# starrwulfe Yeah but I think the part he misses:
# starrwulfe If a site is federated, assume your comment will be propagated.
# starrwulfe Does it really matter though: if you post ANYTHING on the internet, it's being indexed somewhere.
# rubenwardy that bix.blog post seems to be about backfeeding though, not the other way around
# [Joe_Crawford] I also saw the comment from jwz on his ingestion script for comments from mastodon into his blog. I have not taken the time to do this but am considering it.
# [Joe_Crawford] https://mastodon.social/@jwz/111738698999422483
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Loqi [preview] [jwz] @fraying Halfassedly: https://www.jwz.org/hacks/#mastodon-to-wp-commentsI know you think this is wrong in general, and I get your arguments, but I consider my use of Mastodon to be essentially an appendix of my blog, which is older than social media ...
# starrwulfe Right, no one who puts in a local comment through the form on the post gets federated.
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# [Joe_Crawford] and that's just individual blogs. multiuser blogs, or blogs with large userbases and comments. I don't think of Metafilter or Slashdot or Reddit as blogs _per se_ but -- aren't they though?
# starrwulfe User forums?
# starrwulfe again, I don't think it matters; it all gets indexed somewhere at some point anyway. I like to assume anything I posted on a forum will get hoovered up at some point.
# [Joe_Crawford] (forgive an old man mentioning /. - I was reminded that I have a profile page there. Unused for decades. https://slashdot.org/~ArtLung/
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Argument Machine" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Argument Machine is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# starrwulfe Not to mention kinda doesn't get the gist of how the plugin works maybe
# [Joe_Crawford] Derek's background as a person who has done a lot of moderation - which is to say - the on-the-ground user help required of complex social software informs his strong opinions.
# [Joe_Crawford] I feel like there is prior art in FidoNet and usenet around how context can collapse when distribution of context to effectively distributed systems is uneven
# [tantek] The Argument Machine is https://powazek.com/posts/3368 a post by Derek Powazek describing how [[Twitter]]’s UI appears design to cause and amplify arguments, and lessons from that analysis can be used for better design of commenting/replying/threading systems, including on the IndieWeb.
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[KevinMarks] That's very close to my various posts about twitter. Mastodon does a lot less of it by default; it's closer to the semi-overlapping publics of 2009 Twitter, but the cultural tone has been set now and even Derek is drawn into argumentation by default
# starrwulfe Kevin's argument is [blog comments aren't social media posts](https://bix.blog/2024/01/03/blog-comments-are-not-social-media/] and where he is arguing from.
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# starrwulfe sorry bad habit from slack.
# starrwulfe I mean Discord. I'm bridged
# starrwulfe via Matrix. tis complicated.
# starrwulfe did I need to get karma sniped for it though?
# starrwulfe Anyhoo-- the point I was trying to make was that in 2024, I feel just about anything posted on the internet is social media and fair game
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# starrwulfe Good point! Maybe that's tonights post for me. The argument being made for something to be perceived expressly as "not linkable or attto the person who said it for fear of being out of context" should be a matter of whether its opt-in or opt out. That's my delimma.
# starrwulfe Atto -->attributable
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# starrwulfe It's gonna take me a moment to gather my (very opinionated) thoughts on this one so it's not a hot-take.
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[0x3b0b] re: the Wordpress plugin...To me, the (brief) initial confusion was because "When you respond to comments from the fediverse on your blog, they will now be federated" reads as if "comments" is the antecedent for "they," when I gather the intended antecedent is an implicit "your responses." If the comments are from the fediverse, they were _already_ federated; that's how you got them! ...But if one thinks the comments are "they," it might be really...
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[jacky] is it worth highlighting if a `rel="me authn"` URL is being used during /RelMeAuth?
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[pfefferle] [snarfed] [tantek] this all is only a "problem" if you choose to enable local comments! if you decide to go IndieWeb/Fediverse only you do not have the issue at all! And I am fine arguing about how it is implemented and how it can be improved but I hate if people simple call it "bad idea", "poorly implemented", "release fast, break things" or this is simply because ActivityPub is the new hyped thing. 😞
# [pfefferle] and thanks [snarfed] 🙂
# [pfefferle] [tantek] and yes I had a hard time being precise in my wording... it was late, I was a bit emotional and that doesn't really affect my english well... ;)
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# [KevinMarks] Derek seems to be objecting to Webmention more than AP at heart. Propagating replies around the web was very much what all of us (me, Derek, Tantek) were doing at Technorati 20 years ago, so it is our fault in some senses.
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# [pfefferle] Thanks [tantek] and good idea! I now really have a lot of content for the FAQ 🤗
# [jacky] is looking at https://indieweb.org/consent_screen
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[jamietanna] I can't remember if I've actually implemented it 😂
# [jamietanna] But the idea was that if you get given the scope, you could then use the access token to Micropub my notifications server and send me a notification via that message, if authorized
# [jamietanna] That also sounds like an interesting idea tho!
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "waveforms" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "waveforms is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi An audiogram is a video clip where the primary content is the audio, and is accompanied by a visual aspect, usually a graphical representation of the waveform, the text of what is being spoken, or a still photo of the person speaking https://indieweb.org/audiogram
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# capjamesg How was the call? I had four hours of meetings this afternoon.
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# capjamesg Thank you.
# [Joe_Crawford] changed the units to `rem` rather than px where available and that *may* improve things overall. If I'm understanding it right then because I used `rem` if there needs to be a fix a `:root
{ font-size }` could be set to adjust. I think it's more robust? But all of this is pretty experimental. Along the lines, weakly, of the incredible work Jen Simmons did showcasing Flex and Grid back when those were fresh. https://labs.jensimmons.com# [Joe_Crawford] [tantek] the changelist since last iteration. https://codepen.io/artlung/pen/qBvaePM - last time I was relying on Impact or something similar being available. Turns out, hilariously, the Microsoft effort for ubiquity with Impact died. The history of "Core Fonts for the Web" is amazing! I missed much of this. So what I've done now is created a different proprietary dependency - I chose Oswald, a Google Web Font. I also went through and
# [Joe_Crawford] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_fonts_for_the_Web "Program termination and software license agreement issues"
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gRegor [snarfed], https://indieweb.org/Wavelist, domain looks dead unfortunately 😢
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# [KevinMarks] Definitely getting closer
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# [Joe_Crawford] Baby steps. Very fun to nibble at the edges of this.
# [Joe_Crawford] [KevinMarks] ++ Android QA!
# Loqi 📓 A draft in the context of the indieweb refers to a draft post, a post that an author has partially written, or otherwise does not consider finished https://indieweb.org/draft
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