#dev 2024-09-24

2024-09-24 UTC
mooff, [fluffy], [tantek], [aciccarello], [schmarty], [Jo], lockywolf, [snarfed], barnaby, doesnm, __DuBPiRaTe__, barnabywalters, [KevinMarks], zicklepop, CRISPR, [manton] and AramZS joined the channel
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[mattl] I got SES working and my account was approved to send email.
jacky joined the channel
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[mattl] voxpelli: Yes. HTTP is the web.
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voxpelli Source?
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Loqi voxpelli: [tantek] left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: some of your Micropub clients need screenshots — see https://indieweb.org/Micropub/Clients#Clients and look for the yellow background "🖼️ needs screenshots" and please update your clients's entries accordingly! Thanks!
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voxpelli what is web?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "web is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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voxpelli I would argue that HTML serves over HTTP(S) is the web
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voxpelli If someone accesses eg a database over HTTP – that doesn’t make it a web database
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voxpelli And ActivityPub is mainly push from server to server, right? The client to server part is not really implemented and can not really be used in a web browser either?
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voxpelli Like email, calendar and kind of rss it needs a dedicated app?
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voxpelli And like eg Gmail that app can be a web app, like Mastodon
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[mattl] if you access a database directly over HTTP? or if a database can talk HTTP and produce an HTML interface?
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[mattl] https://profiles.cache.lol/mattl/picture?v=1726859061 that's viewing an image over the web, no HTML needed.
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[mattl] if you receive an HTML file from an FTP server, that's not the web.
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superkuh I feel the same way about HTTP/3.
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superkuh It's not even TCP.
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superkuh At least FTP is.
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[mattl] HTTP/3 isn't TCP?
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pcarrier_com[d] nope, it's built on QUIC which is based on UDP
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superkuh Correct. It's UDP, but specifically a special layer on top made by Goog/MS called QUIC which is entirely architected based on the use case of mega-corps.
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superkuh Pushed through the IETF because of all the MS/Goog employees in there already.
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voxpelli Does ActivityPub deliver HTML?
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superkuh Open washed.
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pcarrier_com[d] how are the use cases of individuals different superkuh?
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[mattl] given that you can still use HTTP/1.0 I wouldn't worry about having to support HTTP/3 any time soon.
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superkuh An human person, as opposed to a corporate person, should be able to self-sign their TLS. Or better, do HTTP+HTTPS. But HTTP/3 does not allow this. Thus it is very fragile over significant time periods like all CA TLS only protocols.
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superkuh I sure do hope HTTP/1.1 lasts. But I imagine google will remove it from chrome for "security reasons" in a few years.
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[mattl] voxpelli: No, it's ActivityStreams (basically JSON)
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voxpelli And it’s push not pull, right?
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[mattl] no way will Google remove HTTP/1.1
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[KevinMarks] here's an interesting one fro FrESH https://x.com/cramforce/status/1838573170728800386
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pcarrier_com[d] superkuh: does it mandate the use of CA-signed certs more than HTTP/2 or HTTP/1.x over TLS?
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voxpelli I know ActivityStreams, I implemented it into Flattr some 10-15 years ago
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pcarrier_com[d] (my stuff supports h2 and h3 but I haven't read the specs)
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superkuh pcarrier_com[d], yes. HTTP/1.1 can do plain text too. HTTP/2 and HTTP/3 can't. But at least HTTP/2 can self sign. HTTP/3 is CA TLS only, no plain text. Only connections to corporate approved websites.
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superkuh And yes, LetsEncrypt is a benevolent overlord for now.
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voxpelli Back then ActivityStreams were feeds progressively enhanced with social metadata
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superkuh But the more centralization in LE the juicier of a target it is for social/legal/etc pressures.
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superkuh Any website made CA TLS only will have an unmaintained lifetime of only some months to a couple years.
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superkuh Fine for for-profit and institutional stuff.
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superkuh Terrible for the health of the web for human persons.
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voxpelli @[mattl]: ActivityPub is mainly push, not pull, right? And mainly server to server, not client to server?
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voxpelli Usually the “web” is client to server and pull not push
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[KevinMarks] It's pull to in principle, in practice it's mostly push. And yes, no-one uses the C2S spec afaik
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[mattl] voxpelli: it's over HTTP, which makes it the web.
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voxpelli Even when server to server?
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[mattl] Anything over HTTP is the web.
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voxpelli I mean, I could accept that ActivityPub is a web technology, but not for that reason
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voxpelli So if a browser can’t access it, only a server, – it’s still the web?
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[mattl] "The World Wide Web (WWW or simply the Web) is an information system that enables content sharing over the Internet through user-friendly ways meant to appeal to users beyond IT specialists and hobbyists. It allows documents and other web resources to be accessed over the Internet according to specific rules of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP)."
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voxpelli A server to server protocol can’t be accessed by users
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voxpelli The client to server protocol can’t be, but pretty much no one uses the ActivityPub client to server protocol
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voxpelli s/can’t/can/
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voxpelli [mattl] Quoting the same Wikipedia page: “Documents and other media content are made available to the network through web servers and can be accessed by programs such as web browsers”
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voxpelli Though, if anything over http is the web, then surely the social web is larger than ActivityPub
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[mattl] ActivityPub is the predominant social networking protocol used on the web (more than OStatus, diaspora*, ATproto), but yes the social web is more than ActivityPub.
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voxpelli I agree with the “social networking protocol” denomination
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voxpelli Especially a “federated” such one
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doesnm im explored twtxt/yarn and thinking what is better than ActivityPub
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[tantek] if anyone here wants to help with actually shaping some of the social web work, there's a few GitHub issues on W3C that could use your 👍 and positive comments / constructive feedback
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[mattl] [tantek] would you mind sharing a link to those?
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voxpelli [tantek]: I’m all into helping, I miss most such communication in the flood of notifications and content
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Loqi misses most such communication in the flood of notifications and content too
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[tantek] lol Loqi
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[tantek] [mattl] the most recent comments (past week) from plehegar on https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/435#issuecomment-2362285972 are very good steps forward IMO and I plan to post a bunch of 👍 and supporting comments very soon
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voxpelli [tantek]: I gave a thumbs up and subscribed
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voxpelli The list that’s linked to in the last comment there may be changed I guess as the new foundation will probably handle the ActivityPub stuff going forward? (And hopefully eg WebFinger, as thats an essential part of the Fediverse despite not being ActivityPub)
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[tantek] I think the new foundation will collaborate on ActivityPub
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[mattl] There's no way to get a good username on http://w3.org right? I have to be Mlee14 for the rest of time?
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voxpelli Is MicroSub something that could go to such a WG as well? Providing something for the client-to-server for reading, not just writing?
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[Joe_Crawford] Thanks [KevinMarks]++
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Loqi [KevinMarks] has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (30 in all channels)
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[tantek] [mattl] I’m stuck with Tantekelik because at the time of account creation it just dropped my family name first letter
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[mattl] Can't handle cedillas 😞
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[mattl] I'm going to assume most things either get it wrong or just write C, despite it being a different letter.
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[Joe_Crawford] Nobody will ever need more than 640k. Or ASCII.
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[mattl] or a domain name that ends with anything other than these six things we've written on a whiteboard.
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[qubyte] Remembering the simpler times of 8.3 filenames.
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[mattl] good news: they're never going away because Windows.
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[qubyte] Wait, really? It’s been so long since I checked…
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[mattl] still can't have files in Windows called "con"
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[qubyte] Oh man, now I’m getting nostalgic over boot disks.
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[qubyte] To be clear, those were not better times. Nostalgia is just weird.
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[KevinMarks] I gave a 5 min talk about that 10 years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cplwtyjhgCU&t=46m25s
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capjamesg[d] https://write.as/evanp/announcing-the-social-web-foundation
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capjamesg[d] [edit] https://write.as/evanp/announcing-the-social-web-foundation
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capjamesg[d] > For me personally, the work will be straightforward. I’m going to continue doing the work I’ve done for the W3C and other ActivityPub projects: protocol refinement, documentation, meetings, speaking engagements, reports. But from here, I’ll be doing it with my SWF hat on.
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[tantek] There you go
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[mattl] lazcorp: I added your note about the RSS feed to the list of bugs on the website
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[mattl] (in an email)
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