#dev 2024-12-03
2024-12-03 UTC
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# 
[mattl] what is squarespace
# Loqi Squarespace is a content hosting service (paid) that provides services such as blogging and domain hosting https://indieweb.org/Squarespace
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# aaronpk i'm gonna start working this phrase into more of my daily conversations: "Code that runs on the client is running on the Devil's Computer" https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/#the-rule-of-least-client-side-complexity
# [tantek] lol
# [tantek] It's no problem as long as you treat it as 100% optional
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# connorgurney hey! just joined the wiki as I've become really interested in the idea of the IndieWeb in recent months. any pointers on who might be in a position to rename my account for me, please? seems to have to be a member of the Bureaucrats group in MediaWiki but I can't see its membership. thanks!
# [Murray] hey @connorgurney, sounds like you may have created a MediaWiki account, but the wiki actually uses IndieAuth as the only method of "logging in" (I think I did something similar when I first joined 😅)
# [Murray] what is the indieweb wiki?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indieweb wiki" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "indieweb wiki is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [Murray] Really Loqi? 😄 hold on
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# connorgurney hi! joined via IndieAuth but it's set my username to a slugified version of the URL I used to log in, meaning that my username is currently *Connorgurney.me.uk me contact.html*. not the most glamorous thing I've ever been called, admittedly!
# [Murray] ah I see. yeah, I don't think that can be changed; it will use the domain used for validation as default. (I also had a similar issue when I signed up, then changed my domain!). You can log in with the "correct" domain and it'll just create a new account
# [Murray] might need someone with a bit more knowledge of the way it all works though 😉
# connorgurney ah, no worries! thanks all the same - appreciate it :)
# carrvo Yes! Got IndieAuth to work with https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_oauth2 today!!
# carrvo [edit] Yes! Got IndieAuth to work with https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_oauth2 today!!
# Loqi [preview] [OpenIDC] mod_oauth2: OAuth 2.x Resource Server module for the Apache HTTPd web server
# Loqi [preview] [OpenIDC] mod_oauth2: OAuth 2.x Resource Server module for the Apache HTTPd web server
# carrvo I will publicly post something about how to get this working in the next few weeks.
# gRegor Welcome, connorgurney!
# gRegor Yeah, if you can set it up so you can sign in by entering your domain name instead of the URL to your contact page, that should work.
# gRegor On indielogin.com, you can try entering https://connorgurney.me.uk/ The setup instructions there for github or email should work
# gRegor carrvo++ congrats!
# Loqi carrvo has 3 karma over the last year
# gRegor connorgurney, I think adding a `rel="me"` on the github / email links in your footer would be sufficient
# gRegor what is rel-me
# Loqi Using rel=me on a hyperlink indicates that its destination represents the same person or entity as the current page, which is a key building-block of web-sign-in, IndieAuth, and ✅ distributed identity verification https://indieweb.org/rel-me
# carrvo Before I do, is there a way for a server to say "hey browser! would you use this bearer token for future requests to me?" It seems indieauth-client-php gets the token on the server side but mod_oauth2 requires the browser to send bearer tokens (upon no token it does not redirect and facilitate letting the browser know). So if I can get my indieauth-client-php redirect endpoint to convince the browser to use a token, then it will b
# carrvo Oh, that was a big message...sorry.
# connorgurney this is super helpful, @gRegor - thanks!
# gRegor carrvo, not sure I follow. Are you building an IndieAuth client or server? I thought server from the mod_oauth2 link
# gRegor though either way, not really aware of a way to instruct the browser to add that, aside from an extension maybe?
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# [snarfed] carrvo sounds like you want to set a cookie
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# btrem Question about presenting nested microformats in a templating language: I sometimes wind up with an h-card that contains only a nested h-adr, e.g., `<div class="p-location h-card"> <div class="p-adr h-adr"><!-- locality, region, etc. --> </div> </div>`.
# btrem It works fine, but -- if it's feasible -- I'd like to simplify the markup. So change the above to `<div class="p-location h-adr"> <!-- locality, region, etc. --> </div>`.
# [tantek] What's the purpose of the h-card there? What problem is it solving, for what consuming code or service?
# [tantek] Hard to advise markup details without knowing the consuming code use case
# btrem Location of a photo in an h-entry. As I said, the nested markup is fine, but a bit bloated. It just gets dicey when you're using a templating language like nunjucks and you have to do if location and name then card else if location and adr then adr else if location and geo then geo.
# btrem I'm writing a how-to, and would like my markup to be as lean as possible, to make it as readable as possible.
# [tantek] location can be anything you like really.
# btrem Yes, I'm aware of that.
# [tantek] you could put merely the name of a venue if you like. or name of a city, state, country, and in which case yes a minimal h-adr with the appropriate property is all you need
# btrem Right. It's just a question of the logic in the template.
# [tantek] yeah the logic should be based on if there are values for each property or not
# btrem I'm attempting that now. And the code is *ugly*.
# btrem ...probably because logic of this level of complexity should not be in the template. But I don't know how else to do it.
# [tantek] real world data is ugly and messy too. nearly nothing fits into neat hierarchies (whether class, inheritance, or characteristics) like all the "architects" would prefer
# btrem No doubt. But when I look at this level of logic in a template, I start to wonder if I'm going about this the wrong way.
# carrvo gRegor, I think I am probably the one who doesn't understand. This is really my first time trying to configure the server-side OAuth.
# carrvo As a user I understood that I could visit pages, be redirected to a login, and then access the page, all powered by OAuth. Now I have to wonder if the "page" made a separate request, passing along the token, and used the response to either build the page or determine that I am not authorized.
# carrvo I am also familiar enough with security to know that I should try to deny requests as early in the process as possible. So it would be appealing to block access to a page at the Apache level, not the page/app level.
# carrvo But it seems like this constitutes both a client and a resource? A client because users directly query it and a resource because it contains the data displayed (even if that data is just text or a photo).
# carrvo Like, if I am hosting a static webpage, is that a "client" or a "resource" or both? And if it is not a resource, then why would it have OAuth protecting it?
# carrvo Maybe this is the wrong place to ask though 😞
# [tantek] #indieweb-dev is a good place for that, e.g. you can use IndieAuth to provider limited audience access to webpages
# [tantek] as an RP
# carrvo So...maybe: user enters /path/to/page.html -> browser sends /path/to/page.html -> PHP passes along /_real/path/to/page.html with header -> html document is returned -> PHP passes back html document -> browser renders html document
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# carrvo [snarfed]++ Looks like mod_oauth2 can be configured with OAuth2AcceptTokenIn to search for the token in other places from the request (like a cookie). Will try another day.
# Loqi [snarfed] has 49 karma in this channel over the last year (90 in all channels)
# gRegor Ah, it is kind of both I think. With IndieAuth you'd access a restricted page, it would ask you to sign in by entering your domain, then it would do discovery on the entered domain to determine where to redirect you to sign in / authorize the request.
# gRegor Once you authorize, the restricted page where you started would get back an authorization_code which can be exchanged for the `me`, and/or an access token (latter depends on requested scopes)
# gRegor I'm not sure how exactly that flow works with the Apache module, though
# gRegor So some real world examples, if someone on WordPress site with the IndieAuth plugin installed, they visit https://indiebookclub.biz and enter their domain, they'll be taken back to their WordPress UI to authorize it, then redirected back to indiebookclub
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# Kolev I'm just looking to get started. Currently, I have no domain of my own. Currently, I use a static site generator. From what info I've gathered, I need to get my own domain and use WordPress, to have the best experience.
# capjamesg[d] It depends what you want to do!
# capjamesg[d] There are no pre-requisites to use any specific technology to participate. All you need is a personal website, which it sounds like you have!
# capjamesg[d] Everyone here uses different technology for their websites.
# capjamesg[d] Some people have static sites; others use WordPress; others use https://micro.blog (some have custom themes; others use defaults); others use omg.lol.
# capjamesg[d] [edit] Some people have static sites; others use WordPress; others use https://micro.blog (some have custom themes; others use defaults); others use omg.lol.
# capjamesg[d] We have a more complete list of options on https://indieweb.org/web_hosting
# capjamesg[d] [edit] We have a more complete list of options on https://indieweb.org/web_hosting
# capjamesg[d] But before choosing an option, definitely ask what you want to accomplish. If you'd prefer to write HTML, a static site generator is ideal. If you'd prefer to make pages without coding, a solution like WordPress or micro.blog may be preferable.
# [lazcorp] (And some of us are stupid enough to build dynamic sites from scratch)
# Kolev capjamesg[d], having a microblog independent of microblogging services really appeals to me.
# Kolev POSSE, as it's called.
# [Murray] definitely something people do with a static site generator 🙂 There are even a few free hosting options for SSGs which will handle the build step and things for you, like Netlify and GitHub Pages
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# [Joe_Crawford] Added PHP Codesniffing and a first unit testfor my Lab site. I also added to the navigation a color hint as to how old pages are. https://lab.artlung.com/
# [tantek] Kolev, re: what aaronpk has built on his site, yes it's quite admirable. I strongly recommend reading https://aaronparecki.com/tag/100daysofindieweb starting from his day 1 post and reading it forward to day 100.
# Kolev [tantek], thanks.
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# carrvo That seems useful! I'll give it a read too.
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# [alanm] Hello. I've been running my own website for a couple of years now and will be looking into integrating it into the indie web by adopting the microformat standard and implementing web mentions.
# [alanm] I've been enjoying looking through the wiki and perusing other peoples' personal sites!
# [alanm] For those who are curious, my website is https://alanmckay.blog/
# Kolev I still feel attracted to WordPress.
# Kolev [alanm], very nice!
# [alanm] Cheers!
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# carrvo I decided it was time to write a little blurb to give background on why I am here: why I discovered IndieAuth and why I have been asking the questions I have been. https://turner.enemyterritory.org/HomeCloud
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# carrvo Nothing fancy and no commenting, but I am happy to hear thoughts here and through email.
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# Kolev Ugh, can't decide between Known and WordPress.
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# Kolev I might bite the bullet and use Known...
# capjamesg[d] I have enjoyed using Known in the past!
# Kolev capjamesg[d], what do you use now?
# capjamesg[d] A custom static site generator.
# capjamesg[d] I wanted to learn how they worked.
# Kolev capjamesg[d], and you can do IndieAuth with that?
# capjamesg[d] You can, but my site isn't an IndieAuth server.
# capjamesg[d] That means that I need to depend on another server.
# capjamesg[d] I was happy with Known.
# capjamesg[d] It isn't actively maintained now IIRC, but it worked and was reliable and stable.
# capjamesg[d] I used it a lot to keep track of bookmarks and web pages I liked.
# Kolev capjamesg[d], I'm looking for a solution that will stand the test of time and allow me to implement a lot of the IndieWeb features, especially POSSE and IndieAuth.
# gRegor WordPress might have some more active users and dev people who can help around here. But there are several Known people too, and I think development is picking back up, or Ben at least mentioned that.
# gRegor Both open source, of course, so if you're comfortable with code, Known might be perfectly suitable
# gRegor what is known?
# Loqi Known is an open publishing / community platform project https://indieweb.org/known
# Kolev gRegor, I'm OK with code. I've used static site generators, written HTML/CSS from scratch, etc. I want something robust that will just work and I won't have to worry about replacing it any time soon. Known looks really cool but WordPress has so much maturity on its side.
# gRegor Looks like last release was January this year. Ben mentioned some ideas for the future of Known in https://werd.io/2024/helping-to-build-the-open-social-web
# capjamesg[d] WordPress is a good call for something with a large, actively-maintained ecosystem.
# capjamesg[d] (And actively supported IndieWeb plugins!)
# Kolev And learning WordPress would be good for me. Lots of sites use it. It's a good skill to have.
# gRegor True
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