#dev 2025-11-08

2025-11-08 UTC
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trwnh js-- tbh even as a "frontend" language. it has an unfair advantage of being the thing that works in browsers which was pretty much unchallenged until wasm. the reason it endures is that there is no real alternative in most cases
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Loqi js has -1 karma over the last year
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trwnh i do think the "content vs app" thing is a generally good distinction though. if you use the web as a platform for exchanging information then you prioritize the content a lot more than implementing more-or-less custom functionality that would ideally be the responsibility of the web browser itself
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trwnh (or some other program using http to obtain information and render it usefully)
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trwnh iiuc this was what xhtml wanted to do, was allow embedding content from multiple data models into the same document, and have browsers render the semantic tags in an appropriate way. instead we got more js, faster js, custom elements implemented in js... imperative over declarative, which kind of sucks really
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trwnh although we still have a sort-of exception for svg in html
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trwnh but regarding js specifically there are just a lot of nonsensical decisions littered all over the language, leading to so many "wtf js" moments in so many contexts. stuff like how the Date class works. or like how weak vs strong equality works. or the difference between null and undefined (which is highly inconsistent across the js ecosystem)
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DKordic IMHO anything related to XML is confused.
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DKordic Mental gymnastics and whiteboard masturbation without exception.
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[KevinMarks] Node works because it has a good enough asynchronous model and because npm is good at handling libraries smoothly (arguably too good which leads to too many tiny libraries)
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[Al_Abut] Great recap @trwnh++ and the nice and tidy synthesis by [KevinMarks]++
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Loqi [KevinMarks] has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (26 in all channels)
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[Al_Abut] This was a fun discussion
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[Al_Abut] It was fun to take a step back and make explicit the “content vs app” mental framing I’ve been using for a while, and to see it resonate even a little bit. I feel like that’s the base layer that gets forgotten when people start talking past each other.
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[Al_Abut] “The web” isn’t just one thing (and it’s not dying either, IMO)
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[Al_Abut] If the web was dying, then by definition the indieweb couldn’t be thriving, right? But it’s super alive and been a huge source of re-finding my love of the game again in the last two years.
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capjamesg Not only that, the “web is dying” discourse does not acknowledge that there are new people who are deliberately opting to make personal websites as a means of expression online.
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[Al_Abut] Yes! The creative new spark that feeds the virtuous circle.
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[Al_Abut] I might be scope creeping this discussion way out of pragmatic dev talk, to the point that we need a #spiritually-affirming-side-of-the-indieweb channel or something
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[Al_Abut] Haha
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capjamesg Haha yes. Optimism about the web is surely needed!
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[Al_Abut] (Also good morning James!)
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[Al_Abut] So true. Honestly, I think I’ve got a solid 5-10k word long form essay in me about how the web is thriving.
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[Al_Abut] I’m going to let it brew for a bit until I get a few more site projects out of the way:
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[Al_Abut] • Wrapping up my photo gallery implementation that I’ve been working on all week (it’s so performant that maybe I should open source it? Never done anything like that before, happy to hear some advice or tips)
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[Al_Abut] • Using the gallery-and-article hybrid format to finally publish a long form memorial for my dog Cosmo. I already published the bones of it privately on Facebook to family and I want to do even more for when I bring it to my blog/indieweb family.
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[Al_Abut] • Migrating from Astro to Eleventy under the hood so I can do all of the above faster and more smoothly with better RSS support.
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[Al_Abut] • Doing all of this before IWCSD in a month, so I can publish recaps from the first two beforehand as a way to frame some of the discussion points I’ve had floating around in my mind all summer.
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[jeremycherfas] [Al_Abut]++ for clearly being on a creative hot streak.
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Loqi [Al_Abut] has 10 karma in this channel over the last year (17 in all channels)
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carrvo Sounds like a lot like the culture surrounding it (managers, frameworks, less to learn, inconsistent implementations) than the language itself. Which is a fair point, just different than strictly stated.
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[Al_Abut] [capjamesg] coincidentally saw this after our “the web is not dead” convo earlier:
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[Al_Abut] https://zeldman.com/2025/10/25/receipts-a-brief-list-of-prominent-articles-proclaiming-the-death-of-the-web/
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