#meta 2017-08-13

2017-08-13 UTC
eli_oat, schmarty, [chrisaldrich], sl007, [renem], jjuran, [jeremycherfas], [miklb], tantek, [kevinmarks] and [shurcool] joined the channel
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Zegnat tantek, taking this here: do we need some sort of guideline for when we point people to dev? Clearly the two of us have different thresholds :)
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Zegnat As long as no code is being mentioned I feel like #indieweb is fine, but you seem to suggest anything talking about adding a rel value should go to dev?
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tantek Zegnat, when was the last time you asked a user (non-dev) to do the things you spoke of in person and saw the reaction on their face?
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tantek *maybe* a little bit of HTML is acceptable
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tantek but talk of things like a
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tantek authorization endpoint
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tantek heck anything "endpoint"
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tantek how is that not obviously dev?
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tantek users do not know what an 'endpoint' is
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Zegnat rel="me" vs rel="authorization_endpoint"
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Zegnat same amount of coding necessary for those.
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tantek also uploading a file, I can only assume you mean by command line
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tantek anything command line is definitely dev
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tantek kinda surprised that's even a question
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sknebel since when is commandline the default way to upload files to webspace?
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tantek how else do people do it?
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Zegnat Command line is far from default
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tantek on what host?
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Zegnat My mom wouldn’t know how to touch the command line
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Zegnat Every single hosting provider I have worked with here in Sweden allows file management through their control panel
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Zegnat Binero, One.com, …
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sknebel or you use a graphical FTP client
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Zegnat I think cPanel used to support file management too?
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tantek that's worth capturing then
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tantek "FTP client" is dev
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Zegnat So every hosting provider with full cPanel allows file uploads
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tantek even knowing you need to find / install / configure an FTP client
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tantek it's non-trivial
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tantek users do not have FTP clients installed by default
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tantek again, kinda surprised to see that even mentioned as a user alternative
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Zegnat Also false: Explorer is a FTP client
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Zegnat used to be, anyways
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tantek browsers do read-only ftp: URLs
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Zegnat Comes with every Windows computer
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tantek they don't upload to ftp
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tantek AFAIK
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Zegnat Explorer, not Internet Explorer
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Zegnat the file manager
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sknebel so what's the correct protocol to talk to someone about "dev-y" things when they start asking in #indieweb ? "could you please join -dev so I can talk to you about something cool"?
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Zegnat That’s why I asked what the guideline would be :)
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sknebel totally agree on moving support and detail questions to -dev, but it IMHO makes no sense to ban *mention* of such things from the main channel
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tantek sknebel: that's a more interesting question
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tantek how to transition conversations
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sknebel especially when talking to devs (which unless I'm totally confusing who shurcool is clearly applies to him)
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tantek sknebel: in this case they didn't start asking about anything dev-y
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sknebel so if you or aaronpk ask a non-dev question I can't suggest a dev-y solution in the main channel?
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tantek rather, Zegnat offered unprompted the selfauth alternative
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Zegnat Not unprompted, they were asking about ways to use indieauth.com after moving their rel-me links of the page
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Zegnat bear mentioned hidden metadata through LINK elements linking to silos, I wanted to throw in the fact that the LINK element could point to an auth endpoint too, as an alternative
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tantek not really, they were only talking about links
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tantek and the user scenario of having a separate about page
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tantek they were not talking about protocols and indieauth.com in general
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tantek sknebel: I think it's ok to provide one such (more dev-like) answer, and then point out it's still a technical solution, and happy to discuss more of it in #indieweb-dev
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tantek then you give them the choice of either keeping the conversation user-focused in #indieweb, or following-up with more dev-talk in #indieweb-dev
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Zegnat His literal question: https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-08-13/1502646468825000
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Loqi [[shurcool]] Hi there. I've got a quick question that's _probably_ common... it's about indieauth and rel="me" links. So, I _used to_ have those links on the index page, but I've ended up moving them to an `/about` page. That ends up breaking my ability to sign i...
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Zegnat mentioned indieauth
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tantek but just treating it as a free-for-all to go all dev-talk in #indieweb is not a good thing
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tantek Zegnat, yes, indieauth the user feature. not protocol, not (.com)
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Zegnat Yes, the user feature, logging in with their homepage.
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tantek they didn't mention RelMeAuth, you did
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tantek they didn't mention "IndieAuth protocol", you did
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tantek all of which all of a sudden makes indieAuth sound much more complicated than it is
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tantek which maybe is ok if it's a dev that's specifically asking about details and differences etc.
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tantek but is very bad for helping out users, who then get overwhelmed with so much detail and options and often give up because it all sounds so complicated
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tantek the point is to keep indieweb friendly for users
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tantek and for most folks that means leaving out dev-talk by default, because that only makes things more confusing (less friendly) for more people
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tantek s/more/most
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sebsel So, apart from IndieAuth-the-protocol and IndieAuth.com, there is IndieAuth-the-user-feature?
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sebsel I think this shows that there is room for a rename of IndieAuth-the-protocol
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Zegnat I guess I saw my comment more as “I have gotten around the requirement for rel-me links on the homepage by using selfauth”, which is like someone saying “I now post video to my Known installation using cweiske’s plugin”. I didn’t feel that was develop-y. But it’s fine to call it out when things get too technical of course!
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sknebel Zegnat's wording might not have been optimal, but IMHO just mentioning a more complex solution the person asking the question might be interested in doesn't warrant jumping in and going "dev-talk, forbidden here". Redirecting discussion about details, sure, but that hadn't happened yet
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sknebel (again, if talking to someone completely new that's different, but we weren't)
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Zegnat I don’t really care for this specific example. Lets move on from that. I have no hard feelings towards tantek over this.
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Zegnat I am mostly wondering how soon we should move to -dev and what the best way to point people to it is.
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Zegnat Like, should we have pointed shurcool there right after he asked the question?
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Zegnat Was bear’s “the rel=me links just are pointers for indieauth to know which pages represent you for authentication” too much plumbing for #indieweb?
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tantek Zegnat, I think bear's explanation was borderline, but because it was just HTML, it was still reasonably accessible
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Zegnat selfauth doesn’t involve coding, tantek. Just uploading 2 files.
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tantek re: how soon, https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2017-08-13#t1502649518508000
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Loqi [tantek] sknebel: I think it's ok to provide one such (more dev-like) answer, and then point out it's still a technical solution, and happy to discuss more of it in #indieweb-dev
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tantek what is selfauth
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Loqi selfauth is a single user authorization endpoint written in PHP which is easy for anyone to get running https://indieweb.org/selfauth
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tantek Zegnat, I don't see that there
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tantek no "how to", no "why", nor even "IndieWeb Examples"
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tantek if it's so easy, the steps should be simply explained there
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tantek also it should be clear that selfauth requires you to pick and remember a new password
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tantek that's actually a huge disadvantage to usability/security if someone already has a github/twitter with 2FA ertc
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Zegnat Not every project has a copy of their README on the wiki
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tantek not a whole readme
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tantek just at least the minimal steps
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tantek if it's easy, it should be short
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tantek if it's not short, it's not easy
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tantek and nowhere does it say anyone actually uses it
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Zegnat three steps, we also document the easiest way to test if you have got everything working: https://github.com/Inklings-io/selfauth/blob/master/README.md#setup
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tantek I'd be very suspicious of anything auth / password without examples of anyone using it
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Zegnat Hmm, I thought I added myself there, maybe I only added it to my user page
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tantek hence the need for explicit "why" (why is this approach better, caveats), *short* "how to"
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tantek and "indieweb examples"
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tantek I'd NEVER point a user to such a stub page suggesting they use that
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tantek because it looks super undeveloped
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[miklb] miklb set the channel topic: community organisation: event planning, wiki gardening, ...
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adactio.com edited /events/2017-08-09-homebrew-website-club (+88) "/* Brighton */" (view diff)
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[tantek] Shouldn't that be for 2017-08-23?
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[tantek] The eclipse is 2017-08-21
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aaronpk i'm guessing he clicked on "next hwc" to get to that page
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