#meta 2018-04-18
2018-04-18 UTC
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[kevinmarks] Yeah, calling unmung to do it might be less than ideal
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tantek one is what /posts_about has served and serves today - which is to provide actual introductory and educational/tutorial content about the indieweb, that's the highest value and what I think we should stick to in general
# tantek perhaps we can add that second type to an "Articles" section on /Getting_Started ?
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grantcodes Ok, I think the wiki extension is ready to go now
# grantcodes So it auto generates tabs called "HTML+mf2, mf2 JSON, Micropub JSON & Rendered"
# grantcodes You can also add a Screenshot tab
# grantcodes And hide any tab you want
# grantcodes Also you can overwrite the micropub json with custom json if you need to
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# grantcodes aaronpk: tantek Any changes you think I should make before publishing it?
# grantcodes Yeah it'll work for any html+mf2
# tantek e.g. on the h-cite shown here: https://indieweb.org/reply-context#Markup
# grantcodes Ha, the only part of it that matters is the "tag" name
# grantcodes I can actually use multiple I think
# grantcodes I think your ideas are pretty difficult to remember though tantek
# grantcodes Maybe mf2codetabs ?
# grantcodes mf2tabs
# grantcodes Best option I can think of just now
# grantcodes Ok made a pull request with the extension.
# grantcodes supports both "magic words" `mf2tabs` and `indiewebpost` now
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+51) "update from /Events" (view diff)
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petermolnar morning all; I had a thought of creating a "what is indieweb" entry per generation - just a few paragraphs - but I'd like to ask for thoughts on it
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Loqi petermolnar: tantek left you a message on 2018-02-03 at 12:41am UTC: could you add your preferences here? https://indieweb.org/2018/Planning#Possible_Dates
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[jgmac1106] @pertermolnar I am working on the same. Being a little fun and snarky and want to translate the princeples for "norms"
# [jgmac1106] Here is what I was writing in wordpress but wanted to mocve to meta: I have to take my students from never having been online beyond social media to creating their own blog and focusing on the "values" of indieweb. I think it would take me a few semesters to truly indiewebify my students (wordpress.com>self hosted wprdpress>indieweb plug-ins>syndication)
# [jgmac1106] part of the reason I recommend folks who do move from wordpress.com to a self hosted instance to pay for a theme just so you know you get developer suppor
# [jgmac1106] take the first three principles: ✊ Own your data.
# [jgmac1106] 🔍 Use visible data for humans first, machines second. See also DRY.
# [jgmac1106] 💪 Make tools for yourself
# [jgmac1106] I can teach a "norm" number one. They understand that. They can get that, but from 2-3 I know you are no longer to speaking to me as user but only to developers. WTF is DRY and why woul;d I also see it. What the hell do you mean machin vs human read data?
# [jgmac1106] and new users can't make tools themselves. Having that so high up in principles is exclusionary
# [jgmac1106] even folks like jsadler who have some development chops don't even know what indieweb means
# [jgmac1106] Kind of like micro.blog which uses "exclusionary development" by using a Markdown editor and not including a wysiwyg editor you are saying, "This tool isn't for you. It's for the cool kids who know tech" That can be deliberate. Going after niche markets make sense when fighting large incumbents
# [jgmac1106] but its usually what happens if "You make tools for yourself" that also means making tools for people just like you
# [jgmac1106] but it probably means nothing, it is the perception of the user that matters if they felt they were left out then you deliberately made your tool that way in their eyes
# petermolnar I partially agree; markdown (or even raw html) vs wysiwyg is a manner of willingness; it is true though that a wysiwyg editor is always much simpler to start with, and should be included.
# petermolnar the 3 principles are indeed not for everyone, and that is a real problem
# petermolnar I'd love to help wording the "what is indieweb and why you want to be part of it" for the different generations
# [jgmac1106] @petermolnar yeah I am going to try and translate them for web zeros since they were written by and for web heroes
# petermolnar I'd recommend to have a session about rethinking the core principles and maybe splitting them into generation-like levels in a reverse order at the indieweb summit
# petermolnar things like own your data, plurality, have fun, scratch your own itches are fine for gen4
# petermolnar but most of the rest is gen2-1
# petermolnar !tell aaronpk where can I add suggestions for topic for indieweb summit/leaders summit?
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# [jgmac1106] Peter that is a good idea
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aaronpk petermolnar: https://indieweb.org/2018/Leaders#Sessions
# petermolnar I couldn't participate in the whole session last year, so I don't feel empowered to do so
# [jgmac1106] @petermolnar here is where I start with my students and they must make a blog to start (used to say any platform now restrict to wordpress.com less technical help on my end with just one tool): http://edu106class.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/
# [jgmac1106] and here is where they end up if look at finals: http://edu106.networkedlearningcollaborative.com/
# [jgmac1106] now I am restricted having specifc tech fluency but building in the #indieweb mindset is my major goal
# [jgmac1106] I need to redo my website templates so they get scaffolded into the basics, but its really about goal 1 and what I call "privacy through data empowerment"
# [jgmac1106] also a required class so motivation skewed lower
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# petermolnar tantek: I initiated to have a session on the principal reordering/rewording on either during summit or leaders summit
# petermolnar apart from diaspora, none of those is strictly monoculture: WP is used among us, Mastodon support activitypub, etc.
# petermolnar but our principles are aimed at gen1
# aaronpk i thought this was helpful https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2018-04-18#t1524050962303500
# petermolnar and has no place in there
# petermolnar it should come later
# petermolnar this is what we're talking about :)
# petermolnar only partially
# tantek btw https://www.sadlerjw.com/2018/04/17/wrapping-my-head-around-micro-blog-and-indieweb/ sounds like a gen 1 person
# tantek so that IMO is not a good example of the point you're trying to make to improve /principles for gen 2+
# petermolnar it doesn't matter who triggers it, if the points are valid, does it?
# petermolnar agreed
# petermolnar (btw for those who still come with Atom vs RSS, my reaction is "get out!")
# petermolnar and yet most of the principles is builder-oriented, though not drowning in plumbing, that is true
# petermolnar however, it might be time to shift a bit, given we have a lot of relatively user friendly tools by now
# petermolnar ok, so we're all on the same page, that's why we need a session on this and re-word the page
# petermolnar that's all
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# [jgmac1106] in some ways I am equating indiewebcamp (as gen 1 or leadership, pipe builders) and HBWC (gen 2+, users, pipe fillers). I know that's not the intention but bifurcation makes some sense
# [jgmac1106] also have to be careful trying to plan for and educate the Wordpress cloud the plug-ins are getting closer, theme authors getting better, but its WP, a Wonky Pain, things will always break....I just think about onboarding, leadership, mentoring, and leveling up a lot in open source communities...didn't mean to come off as crass (thats just a bad side effect of my personality)
# [jgmac1106] Wordpress crowd, not cloud, stupid predictive type thinking it is smarter than me
# tantek !tell dansup since your goal is "federated instagram", have you documented Instagram's feature list? or what subset you see as an MVP for your version of a "federated instagram"? Partial list here, would appreciate any contributions! https://indieweb.org/Instagram#Features
# [jgmac1106] @petermolnar this is my favorite: Have fun. Remember that GeoCities page you built back in the mid-90s
# [jgmac1106] I am teaching this to stuff who weren't alive then
# [jgmac1106] Classic practice of signaling membership by setting a high bar of first participation. Even though it's trying to be cute it can come across as, "You kids get off my lawn. We are the real internet"
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# petermolnar !tell [jgmac1106] about that "Remember that GeoCities page..." please keep it in mind that the indieweb wiki is community-written and some of it's parts might be nearly a decade old. If something needs rewording, we are open to it, even you yourself can edit the wiki. Also: there's nothing wrong teaching what Geocities was, and why internet longtimers wipe a tear when they recall it.
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# [jgmac1106] I get both of those points. It's just when you ask, "What is indieweb?" Somebody usually points you to the principles. Not trying to be ornery, but I teach folks who were born long after the first wave
# [jgmac1106] I didn't want to edit wiki if you were making this a session proposal. I am doing my own word play as a thought experiment to see if I can keep the same principles but focus more on users rather than pipe builders
# [jgmac1106] You know what else after reading up on the Hopscotch project and thinking about the meme discussion we had in WordPress...there really isn't an indieweb media remix machine anymore
# [jgmac1106] That has to be way most folks are onboarded to the Web. I think back to tools like Popcorn and Zeega.com that allowed for amazing remixing while tracking sources of derivative works. Wonder what an indieweb powered HTML 5 remix machine would do and look like
# [jgmac1106] You will never slice enough away from silos without making them meme generating and amplifying machines
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chrisaldrich Following onto some of aaronpk's note the other day about related IndieWeb tweets in the wild, I ran across this: http://social.cheribaker.com/what-is-this/
# Loqi chrisaldrich: tantek left you a message 2 days, 1 hour ago: this whole section, since Conway's law was on your mind: https://indieweb.org/antipatterns#design_for_silos_or_enterprise
# chrisaldrich I find it interesting that there are now subcultures of people using the word in what might be considered a Gen2-3 arena who have little or no interaction with the broader existence of indieweb.org
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# chrisaldrich and as they go, the examples I've seen thus far are not too far from how we would define IndieWeb, though perhaps not as nuanced.
# chrisaldrich It's quite thrilling to see second or third hand concepts of IndieWeb without any reference to the resources we're all accumulating here.
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# [jgmac1106] [chrisaldrich] agree. Figuring out language for the next batch of users is such a good problem to have
# aaronpk whoa, a spanish post about the indieweb wordpress plugins! https://ciudadanob.com/blog/2018/04/18/plugins-de-wordpress-para-la-indieweb/
# chrisaldrich worth adding a Spanish tab to indieweb news to bookmark that and his other post(s)?
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# chrisaldrich I've seen him on the periphery in the past, but it's been a while.
# aaronpk otherwise we need someone to translate this to spanish: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/tree/master/Locale
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tantek.com edited /events/2018-04-18-homebrew-website-club (+8) "/* San Francisco */ add self" (view diff)
# tantek.com edited /2018/Leaders (+235) "/* New ideas */ start modest, rephrasing to be inclusive of gen2" (view diff)
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# [chrisaldrich] GWG, can others call in?
# hate-titles.com profile sjayanthi created /User:Hate-titles.com_profile_sjayanthi (+1476) "Created page with " == Shridhar's Indie Web profile. == I will try to use this wiki page to log the evolution of my self-hosted website. This might take a while - I haven't seriously programme..."" (view diff)
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# [jgmac1106] awesome @gwg I love a good couch tour