#meta 2018-07-01

2018-07-01 UTC
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Loqi [superfeedr] "👓 Spending a Morning on the Indie Web | Interdependent Thoughts" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-06-29 https://boffosocko.com/2018/06/29/spending-a-morning-on-the-indie-web-interdependent-thoughts/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@crowley_mike I couldn’t agree more. Simplicity and silos sucking our students souls. Come join us on..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-01 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3957-2/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "I agree. I skipped ISTE and headed to the #IndieWebSummit. Come join us on the #IndieWeb. We have a responsibility..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-01 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3952-2/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "To all my education and nonprofit friends in New York City. Looking to partner with an organization for..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-01 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3964-2/
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aaronpk Anyone remember who wrote that post that was a critique of our concept of generations?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "A few from #Portland this week: 1 #IndieWebSummit group photo, 📷 @aaronpk’s camera on timer 2 #IndieWeb Leaders Summit the day before @MozPDX, 6 in room + 6 remote 3 Bowl of the gods #acaibowl with peanut butter on top at Kure that morning 4 Chipotle chili bowl with quinoa at Prasad the night before that 5 Berlin IWS Remote Viewing hosted @EmbassyNetwork by 📷 @anikasai 6 Participant proposed & led @IndieWebSummit sessions 7 Running @Nov_ProjectPDX with @DesignNatalie (not pictured) 8 Fresh #NP_PDX tag thanks to co-leaders Lara & Shelby 9 Black Currant Cider limited-edition #donut @BlueStarDonuts #2018_176 #2018_177 #2018_178 More photos soon. Got photos from @IndieWebSummit to share? Add them to https://indieweb.org/2018#Photos" on 2018-07-01 http://tantek.com/2018/181/t2/portland-week-indiewebsummit-sessions
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Loqi [superfeedr] "🎉" by Douglas Beal on 2018-07-01 https://dougbeal.com/2018/06/30/1527/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "dougbeal" by Douglas Beal on 2018-07-01 https://dougbeal.com/2018/06/30/1528/
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[jgmac1106] [aaronpk] I discussed in meta but didn't do post, wasn't gonna direct it at indieweb but development in general. Version software not people is catchy
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aaronpk Yeah the more I think about it the more I think the numbered generation model is wrong
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aaronpk We're also missing a group between the current 1 and 2
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aaronpk I'm trying to collect examples of other communities where the same model exists
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[jgmac1106] I am gonna write up the post, but should wait until after vacation. Want to wait until all the rah rah rah, go team go posts are done
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[jgmac1106] My biggest issue is it isn't a growth model. I want malleable levels of skill and activity
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[jgmac1106] But just landed at beach. Time for cold one on porch, the web will wait
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[jgmac1106] Can't lie love the random flower I drew for the daily create after last time we discussed same issue
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aaronpk The numbers imply an ordering as well as moving up the ranks
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aaronpk whereas in reality people exist at these different groups often with no interest in moving between them
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[jgmac1106] Numbers are ordinal but generations carry a connotative static meaning.
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[jgmac1106] At same time in literacy we have field of disciplinary literacies and concept of teired vocabulary
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[jgmac1106] Want to get at the levels of enculturation and ways of being captured in generations model. There is something there.
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aaronpk This is why I want to point to other examples of this and see if we can figure out the right terminology
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[jgmac1106] But hearing speakers talk about different generations or hearing attendees say, "I guess I am just gen3 or gen4" when they can't do something isn't good
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[jgmac1106] Gonna crack a beer sit on my porch and think on it. Can't solve all the problems in a day
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[jgmac1106] Just wish my mother drank something besides Much Ultra,
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[jgmac1106] Mich stupid auto correct
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aaronpk Yeah that's the problem with the ranking model
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aaronpk We need a model where there isn't an implicit ranking so that people don't feel bad about being in any particular group
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[jgmac1106] MicroSub 0.4.2 This still requires you to download the source code and run on your server best for a technical crowd skilled in server configuration.
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[jgmac1106] Aperture 1.0 First public release of a MicroSub server people who run their own websites can connect to.
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[jgmac1106] Just don't see value in labeling and sorting people
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GWG [jgmac1106]: I never used the generations term, to be honest.
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[jgmac1106] Ohh and totally made up version numbers FYI for future reference... @gwg bc you serve the audience most labeled at lowest end of scale
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GWG I understand the difference between developers and users in terms of ability.
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aaronpk The fact is there are these different groups of people with different desires and needs, and it is useful to be able to refer to them specifically, but it should not be an ordering
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GWG So, maybe the numbers need to be names?
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[jgmac1106] In positive D&I note I loved that women of the web sticker sheet handed out at #MOZPDX maybe need to do a post on women of IndieWeb Summit what Jean, Dori, [anomalily], @lovi.star.is and a few others did blew my mind. Skilled people.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@namedotcom Just wanted to thank Jared for all he did. The #IndieWeb needs more lies like Jared. Constantly..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-01 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3973-2/
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blog.vanessahamshere.uk created /User:Blog.vanessahamshere.uk (+1826) "Created page with "= Vanessa Hamshere = == Introduction == Hello. I'm Vanessa, a relative newbie in the Indieweb. I work as a manager in an outsourcing company and my current role does includ..."" (view diff)
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sknebel there's been a proposal for user personas as an alternate model too
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[jgmac1106] @sknebel alternative to what? Chat-names
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sknebel the generations stuff
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Zegnat “The fact is there are these different groups of people with different desires and needs” - that applies also to IndieMark to some extend, and is why I like the “axes” model more
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Zegnat The German-IWC personas got some discussion at IWS, IIRC? [jgmac1106] were you the one commenting on how you would have loved a little more diversity in those?
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sknebel k, wasn't sure if people were aware of them
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[jgmac1106] I dig user personas but do worry about reinforcing bias. Look at Nuremberg, the "Gen 1" is a 38 year old single dude. Why can't it be a mom of three struggling to find time?
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[jgmac1106]
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[jgmac1106] It is a problem with user personas back stories. We build in inherent bias across industry. Not #IndieWeb specific
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[jgmac1106] Here was my tongue and cheek rethinking: https://jgregorymcverry.com/heres-my-forking-flower-tdc2336-flower-maker/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Surfing the web takes teamwork. Find your tribe. #IndieWeb Also on:Twitter" by Greg McVerry on 2018-07-01 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3984-2/
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[manton] On the generations 1-4 discussion, maybe I misunderstand the point but I always interpreted the numbering to be not how users move between levels, but that the ordering represents how the community itself will grow. The community starts with programmers, etc. and eventually grows to accommodate mainstream users with little technical experience.
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[manton] From my perspective, if there's a problem, it's not the numbers but that new users are often told they need to self-host instead of letting a hosting provider handle the technical details. Then they get lost in the weeds and give up.
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schmarty I think that makes some sense, manton. “gen3 software” or “a gen3 experience” sounds much better to me than “gen3 users”
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schmarty (For all values of genN)
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schmarty For example, at the presummit party I talked with folks a bit about how the indieweb doesn’t have any kind of mobile-only answer
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schmarty Being able to get a personal site set up and post to it with indieweb features entirely from a non-desktop device might be a “gen3 experience”
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schmarty Come to think of it, in light of our principle of UX first, IndieMark et al feel awfully plumbing oriented
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schmarty Or for a positive framing, I think a measure of indieweb building block features from the perspective of UX would be pretty compelling
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sknebel hm, tons of dead images on chat-people, guess that's not surprising
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sknebel *chat-names
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sknebel yeah, I also am not really convinced about Indiemark. it's interesting as an inspiration, but feels a bit prescriptive
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sknebel which conflicts with the idea of "it's your site, do what you feel is important"
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Zegnat Yeah, that’s my problem with indiemark the numbers, but indiemark the axes is pretty fun. Because you can chose to go full in on say the identity axis
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[manton] IndieMark is something completely different than IndieWeb Generations, I think. Probably best if we don't mix the 2 things.
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[manton] I haven't given a lot of thought to IndieMark, but the first challenge is just convincing someone they should even have a domain name. If someone who never had their own site now has a site, that's a success. So with IndieMark, we want to be careful that it doesn't make the user feel like they haven't done enough.
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[jgmac1106] I have never seen anyone who is indiwebifying mention Indiemark. Actually want to strip it from WordPress getting started
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[jgmac1106] I would replace with badges like [aaronpk] made "my own domain" "microformats" "webmentions" etc
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[jgmac1106] [manton] my issue is more community based. At summit people make gen3&4 jokes while new users are sitting there thinking, "Is that me... Maybe this IndieWeb stuff is for developers not me?"
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[jgmac1106] I also hear people debating, "I guess I am a gen3 or gen4" efficacy is very self reinforcing
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[manton] Hmm. I didn't hear those kind of comments, but agree that's not the right way to talk about it.
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[jgmac1106] And every gen1 started on shared hosting. It was just called LiveJournal or MySpace
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sknebel what kind of jokes?
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[jgmac1106] ... Not explicitly, no, but just trying to think about subtle bias
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sknebel and the "started at" isn't very relevant IMHO: the model does not mean that people are stuck at a stage
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sknebel and neither is it a "goal" for everyone to reach a harder one if they are not interested in doing so
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[jgmac1106] It isn't a big issue at all just something I have been thinking about since I saw somebody write, "I guess I am more a gen3 or gen4 user"
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sknebel I guess the question is, what do they take from that
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[manton] @sknebel I agree and this was the point Jean and I were trying to make in our Summit keynote, although maybe we didn't make it as clearly as I hoped. Most users should not be pushed up to the "harder" levels. They will get frustrated. Instead, the tools should improve and become more usable by non-programmers.
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[jgmac1106] Yes version software not people, but I am okay with ethical tech being designed to push users to greater understanding
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sknebel [manton]: yes, that was the motiviation behind the classification from my understanding
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[jgmac1106] Also know tons of people who aren't on their own domain but are the most indieweb people I know
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sknebel as a shorthand for "this requires X skill to be useable currently. this other thing has better tooling, and thus is readily accessible to a larger group"
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[manton] Yeah, I think Gen 1-4 works as a way to describe the community growth to more mainstream users. But maybe it can be reframed if it's causing confusion or being used to "label" users in a negative way.
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[manton] To me, Generation 4 represents a goal. It means our tools are easy enough to use for your average Twitter user to be able to participate in the IndieWeb. It does not mean that they should then jump to Generation 3 or 2.
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[jgmac1106] I like goal. The problem with generations is they aren't dynamic. I can't join my parents generation
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[jgmac1106] Goal seems to be more focused on the tech and the community rather than individual user
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[jgmac1106] [manton]++
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Loqi manton has 3 karma in this channel (58 overall)
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Zegnat “Also know tons of people who aren't on their own domain but are the most indieweb people I know” - this is always a thing that I think about. The thing is, if you (or a trusted party) are not in control of your own domain, but you use a URL to have your online identity, your identity can disappear without a path to point it to a new one.
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Zegnat So I like recommending family domains. Like my own. Or like how GWG offers free email addresses on his domain to anyone with the same surname.
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[jgmac1106] Agree @zegnat. Wow I am drawing to this idea of using the badges [aaronpk] as a way to recognize growth and a gentle nudge
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[eddie] I have Hinkle.life with the plan of that becoming a hub for my family that wants to shift to owning their identity. Haven’t done anything but own the domain yet, but it’s a first step
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[chrisaldrich] Apparently I missed a great IWC session on generations this morning...
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[chrisaldrich] What is generations?
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Loqi Generations in the context of the IndieWeb refer to clusters of potential IndieWeb adopters in a series of waves that are expected to naturally adopt the IndieWeb for themselves and then help inform the next generation https://indieweb.org/generations
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[chrisaldrich] Generations << https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2018-07-01#t1530418649464700
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Loqi ok, I added "https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2018-07-01#t1530418649464700" to the "See Also" section of /generations https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=49476&oldid=47915
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Loqi [aaronpk] Anyone remember who wrote that post that was a critique of our concept of generations?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Aaron put together a nice clear guide ..." by Kevin Marks on 2018-07-01 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/aaron-put-together-a-nice-clear-guide
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aaronpk re: "I always interpreted the numbering to be not how users move between levels, but that the ordering represents how the community itself will grow"
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aaronpk yes that is the intent, but what I'm seeing is that people are treating it as a ranking instead
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aaronpk because they are numbered sequentially
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[manton] Thanks Aaron. I'll be interested to hear what suggestions people have for improving this.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "IndieWeb Summit 2018 wrap-up | Manton Reece" by Jonathan LaCour on 2018-06-30 http://www.manton.org/2018/06/indieweb-summit-2018-wrap-up.html
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aaronparecki.com edited /2018/Planning (+228) "/* Costs */ update with actual costs" (view diff)
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sknebel Zegnat: vHWC this week?
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Zegnat uuuh
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Zegnat checks calendar
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sknebel I can host one too, but wasn't sure which week the next one was supposed to be
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Zegnat This week is an off-week.
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Zegnat “supposed to be” is whenever people want it to be. My schedule has been a little bit scrambled by IWS so hard to keep track of stuff :P I think I am available this wednesday though if we want to do one
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sknebel Then let's do one
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sknebel Post-event discussions are good
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Zegnat Better put yourself as organiser. I am too scatterbrained to get anything together.
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Zegnat But ping me and I’ll show up.
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ascraeus.org edited /User:Ascraeus.org (+1037) "/* My Indieweb Setup */ wikified my subdomain obsession" (view diff)
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sknebel Aaronpk suggestion for the chat noise debate: ignore "indieweb" when there is another keyword and it is in the domain?
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aaronpk I thought we had agreed on that last week
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aaronpk did that get captured in the notes?
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aaronpk yep https://indieweb.org/2018/Leaders#Leaders_Summit_Discussion_5
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sknebel Ah, then I remembered that wrong
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sknebel I had to turn on my Master's thesis yesterday, so I was not really paying attention last week
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sknebel Turn in
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aaronpk wow congrats
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dgold crap, thought i ticked the 'minor edit' button
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dgold now congrats sknebel on submitting your thesis
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dgold do you have to defend it in viva voce?
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metafluff.com edited /2018/indiewhere (+2930) "notes from dietrich" (view diff)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Brainstorming on Implementing Vouch, Following and Blogrolls" by David Shanske on 2018-07-01 https://david.shanske.com/2018/07/01/brainstorming-on-implementing-vouch-following-and-blogrolls/
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