#meta 2019-01-21

2019-01-21 UTC
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dmitri.shuralyov.com edited /Planning (+9) "/* NYC */ Add myself to "interested in participating"." (view diff)
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@kev_mcg Spent the weekend (in between packing/getting ready for Boston) setting up IndieWeb stuff on my site—it’s creaky and taped together but pretty fun to tweet by updating my Jekyll site! Notes at http://kevinmcgillivray.net/notes syndicated to Twitter. (twitter.com/_/status/1087204199044182016)
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@TaylorJadin ↩️ Cool stuff! You should get signed into the IndieWeb wiki: https://indieweb.org/ There's some Jekyll stuff there but last I checked it could use more. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1087217823200489472)
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marcus-povey.co.uk edited /Known (-13) "Reference the updated flickr import procedure" (view diff)
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@cafenun Das NUN erwacht aus dem Winterschlaf! Am Mittwoch starten wir mit dem HOMEBREW WEBSITE CLUB – KARLSRUHE. Am Donnerstag geht es mit KLANGWERK weiter. Am Freitag werden wir mit TO BE WE das erste Konzert in diesem Jahr abfeiern! Beginn: 20:30 Uhr Eintritt: frei ❤️ (twitter.com/_/status/1087311210213769216)
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Zegnat Hmm, looks like the Nürnberg Digital Festival will be in July this year. https://nuernberg.digital/
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Loqi Nürnberg Digital Festival
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Zegnat Anyone know if this means a July IWC Nürnberg?
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Zegnat What is planning?
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Loqi The IndieWebCamp community is planning numerous upcoming events, including future IndieWebCamps, regular Homebrew Website Club meetups, talks, and other proposals — if you'd like to help, please contribute to this page! https://indieweb.org/Planning
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Zegnat shoots a tweet in jkphl’s direction
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@TaylorJadin ↩️ That's awesome. I haven't seen too many IndieWeb folks doing doing syndication on JAM stack so I think it's worth writing up how you did it and crossposting that to the wiki (twitter.com/_/status/1087327039957491712)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /Planning (+38) "/* 2019 */ Interested in both Germany events, though probably forced to pick only 1 at some point" (view diff)
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Zegnat How is the planning for Online, [eddie], GWG? Still in the pipes for next month? Anything I can help with?
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GWG I think we were going to chat tonight
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Zegnat Gotcha :) If there is a time for the chat, maybe note it on the planning page?
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GWG I don't know if we agreed on one
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Zegnat Aah, was that the “7pm EST/4PM PST” in the backlog?
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Zegnat !calc 7pm EST to CET
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Loqi 1:00:00 am CET | Tuesday, January 22, 2019
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GWG Yes, but there was a question about later
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Zegnat Make it 4 hours later and I can attend. Hahaha
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Loqi hahaha
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GWG Zegnat, what should an online event be like?
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Zegnat GWG, I imagine putting the focus especially on the kick-off and demos. Most important to be able to sync those up between timezones.
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GWG Or spread out the day a bit
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Zegnat I wonder if it would work to have the sessions more spread out, rather than all within a couple hours on day one
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Zegnat Yes, exactly
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Zegnat But I think having a nice kick-off and a clear end time for demos is good. Then people can work on their stuff at their own pace in between, much like with the physical events
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GWG Well, you can account for Eastern, Pacific, and European timezones and try to schedule parts for all three
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GWG I saw some good ideas
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jgmac1106 @zegnat yes we are going for shared kick off and demos bioth EU and NA, we are going to offer Aussie folks the chance to schedule their own if we get interest and organizer
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jgmac1106 aligning all three impossible. @eddie @zegnat @gwg @chrisalrdrich home all day so I can hop in at different time points wiith different folkgs
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jgmac1106 ruxton @serena expressed interest in helping out. @mrkndvs might attend depending on schedule
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@feather On the left: my blog logo from 10 yrs ago. On the right: my current blog logos. Need to make some changes... #10yrchallenge #indieweb #2019goals (twitter.com/_/status/1087375960901468161)
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[schmarty] aaronpk++ i am interested in this events site idea and congrats on a very good video!
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Loqi aaronpk has 46 karma in this channel over the last year (256 in all channels)
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[schmarty] (re: https://percolator.today/episode/23 and the video version)
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[tantek] goes to watch
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[tantek] lol. appreciate the emotional expressiveness [aaronpk] 🙂
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[tantek] Two things. 1 you basically described what motivated the creation of Lanyrd (back when it was a passion project), including like maybe 90%+ of the same/overlapping use-cases of collecting and linking out to all the stuff "about" an event
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[tantek] 2 yes this is a hard problem, and the reason you're overwhelmed after outlining it is there are too many moving / unknown / unbuilt pieces to "keep it all in your head"
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[tantek] 3 if you can break it down to building blocks that are each useful on their own, and you can (help) solve one a time, maybe even in a community, it may (will) get less overwhelming
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[tantek] 4 one of the most "obvious" building blocks that's needed there are event permalinks, aka /event posts, which itself is a non-trivial thing to build, and yet, an essential piece of any "events site" that you would build (as you figured out when you added up all your requirements)
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[schmarty] i've been thinking about how to automatically add photos / blog post mentions to individual city HWC events
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[schmarty] (oh, and RSVPs)
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[tantek] 5 this is why I strongly believe in iterating on /event posts (and related /rsvp /invitation /photo-reply posts etc.) here in the community, because collectively / in a distributed fashion, we have the best chance of making this/these work, and incrementally improving them until the interactions all feel smooth and good
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[schmarty] since webmention.io already accepts those mentions, a webhook that edits the wiki page might be the fastest thing to build.
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[tantek] 6 as the community solves the "event permalink" problem you (re)identified, then anyone can (re)think up what an event "aggregation" (what you call a list) would/could look like *on another site*
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[tantek] schmarty, ideally the individual HWC location events would be on organizer personal sites just as /event posts
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[tantek] and then /events would "just" link to those - this would all automtically work today (e.g. for the newsletter) because the stuff that consumes /events and the individual event pages just 1 follows a link, 2 parses it for h-event
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[tantek] no need to think about how to automtically add photos, blog mentions, RSVPs - all that is already figured out for /event posts
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[schmarty] tantek: i am leaning away from the idea that they belong on individual organizer's pages.
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[tantek] well they have to go somewhere, why not make the organizers responsible?
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[tantek] also for HWC sake, it builds / shows more indieweb credibility for an organizer to actually use indieweb ways to organize indieweb events
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[schmarty] in my experience with HWC Baltimore it made info harder to find for new attendees
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[tantek] that's a false dichotomy
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[tantek] discovery is solved by distribution
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[tantek] not by *moving*
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[schmarty] also: attendees who did come wanted a centralized way to find out when the next event would be
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[tantek] but yes, discovery (hard to find) is a big challenge, for events or anything else online
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[tantek] right, /events is the best we have for "when is the next event"
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[schmarty] so it wasn't a problem of reach but a problem of those already interested being able to keep track.
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[tantek] could be a lot better obv
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[tantek] well, /events has a way to subscribe in your Calendar aggregator of choice, iCal etc.
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[tantek] perhaps we need location specific lists?
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[tantek] (and thus automatic .ics feed files for calendar apps to subscribe to)
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[schmarty] ooh, i'd subscribe to location specific ics. i already manage it manually in my calendar.
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[tantek] a-ha ok
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[tantek] Kaja already auto-creates the event lists on the home page (which are all inclusive locations)
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[tantek] perhaps Kaja could auto-create location specific event lists on the location *pages*
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[tantek] e.g.
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[tantek] what is Baltimore
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Loqi Baltimore is a city in the US state of Maryland https://indieweb.org/Baltimore
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[tantek] what is NYC
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/NYC
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[tantek] as long as Kaja creates event lists marked up with h-event (and backcompat hCalendar), we can use H2VX to auto-generate an ICS for subscribing in e.g. iOS iCal.app
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[schmarty] being able to point to a centralized place on the wiki for "look here for next HWC [City]" sounds good to me.
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[tantek] not sure what you mean there by "*a* centralized place" vs [City] (more than one)
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[tantek] because if you mean both, then /events (and the home page) both do that today
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[schmarty] i would prefer e.g. having /NYC be a source for all events in NYC, /Baltimore for Baltimore, etc.
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[schmarty] as you described
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[schmarty] but there are other cases where i would prefer to host the event permalink on a site other than my own. for example, my improv show GHOST PARTY has its own website.
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[tantek] got it. sure, then it can have its own event posts / permalinks, that seems fine too
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[tantek] my larger point is, yes it's a big problem, therefore break it down into individually useful building blocks, the most obvious of which is event posts / permalinks, so keep iterating on those and responses to them until that building block works smoothly
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[schmarty] tantek: i wholeheartedly agree that we can iterate on these with indieweb event pages!
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[tantek] or if you want to work on the aggregations/lists piece then great, work on consuming h-event s from elsewhere (like from the wiki, our own sites etc.), not on making your own new event permalinks. focus on one piece or another, not trying to build all the pieces at once yourself
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[schmarty] in my recollection we came up with something buildable for individual city HWCs permalinks/RSVPs/photos/blog posts that also works with aggregation.
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[schmarty] but we have a lot of mediawiki plumbing to work through
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[tantek] I didn't feel that was the case TBH
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[schmarty] we didn't capture it that i can find 😕
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[tantek] re: buildable - it still seemed like too much work to be practical in any reasonable time (less than 3 years?)
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[tantek] yeah
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[tantek] schmarty, we could start by literally re-using the headings from the home page and building manual lists on the individual city pages. e.g. "Upcoming Homebrew Website Club meetups", "Upcoming IndieWebCamps"
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[tantek] many (most?) city pages e.g. /NYC /Baltimore already have some semblance of upcoming or past events sections
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[tantek] just need to pick a convention and start using it
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[tantek] if we re-use the headings from the home page, perhaps it will be easy/easier for Kaja to be updated to "just" update city-specific lists on those pages
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+15) "move HWC 2016 to an Archived heading, not part of any current brainstorming" (view diff)
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[tantek] schmarty, when you do find (or feel free to braindump) "something buildable for individual city HWCs permalinks/RSVPs/photos/blog posts that also works with aggregation" please add it to a new subsection here: https://indieweb.org/Homebrew_Website_Club#Brainstorming
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[tantek] first place I looked and it wasn't there
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[schmarty] that could work! i plan to keep making individual city pages (to the extent that i am now an HWC NYC co-organizer) and would love to start work on showing responses automatically via webmention.
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[schmarty] i'll take a pass at a braindump there
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[tantek] I feel it is more work to show "responses" on a mediawiki page, than it is to keep iterating on indie /event posts many/most of which can already show responses
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[tantek] I do think this is an area where organizers need to lead by example
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[schmarty] i am still torn about having the events on my site. specifically, i am no longer an organizer for HWC Baltimore and it feels odd to have my site be the "home" for these events.
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[tantek] future events sure, sounds like an opportunity to mentor the new chief organizer(s) 🙂
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[tantek] past events are fine on your site. I think it's great to show the individual diversity of who helped what during any period of indieweb community development!
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[schmarty] it feels like a high bar to require an organizer to support /event pages (with responses) and host that content forever, haha
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@Dries I like how @davewiner moved his Flickr archive to his own website: http://scripting.com/2019/01/21.html#a150821. Very #POSSE! https://dri.es/to-pesos-or-to-posse #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1087411256103907329)
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@bradenslen The Weeklyish Summary – http://Indieweb.xyz 21 January 2019 https://indieseek.xyz/2019/01/21/the-weeklyish-summary-indieweb-xyz-21-january-2019/ (twitter.com/_/status/1087411677664952320)
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[tantek] schmarty is that really that high a bar for an organizer in the *indieweb* community, now ~8 years in? 🙂
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[tantek] that reminds me, when did we "start" the indiewebcamp channel on Freenode?
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[tantek] looking to update /timeline a bunch
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[tantek] I found https://chat.indieweb.org/2011-02-12 where the "Prev" button is greyed out so presumably that's our oldest archive of the channel. Maybe when we started it? From the chatter there, it sounds like the site was setup already, which seems curious. I'd have expected channel chatter before the site setup
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+234) "/* 2011 */ apparent #indiewebcamp channel archives start/launch" (view diff)
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[schmarty] oof, i don't think we captured all of the three-tracks homepage redesign stuff we talked about at /2018/Organizers (where we discussed "IndieWeb Meetup" (beginner) vs "HWC" (advanced) vs "WordPress Meetups" (the one that made me exclaim "omg i organize a wordpress meetup and i don't even use wordpress")
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+51) "/* 2011 */ note backfeed" (view diff)
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[tantek] schmarty we took A LOT of notes in the Etherpad
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[schmarty] oh the etherpad! thank you.
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[tantek] not sure if it got archived?
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[tantek] might be worth auditing all the /2018/NYC Etherpads
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[tantek] making sure they got archived to session wiki pages
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[schmarty] i think a very condensed version made it back to the wiki
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tantek.com edited /timeline (-51) "/* 2011 */ clarify backfeed concept before term introduced" (view diff)
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GWG We also need to discuss execution
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+128) "/* 2012 */ Bridgy first version launch details from Ryan's post" (view diff)
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[tantek] GWG, maybe? I mean at this point we need more just capturing of all the ideas onto the wiki, which anyone can do who was there, asynchronously. no need to bottleneck on any discussion
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[tantek] and even then, anyone interested can start to play with prototype structure / content / style on a sub-page of their wiki user page if they like
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[eddie] [chrisaldrich] any word on when you might be available for a meeting today? Anything between 5:00pm and 8:00pm PST?
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GWG I meant that we should see if anyone wants to do that after the discussion
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chrisaldrich [eddie] I think I could pull off anything in that time range. Let me know what works best for the rest of the gang.
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Loqi chrisaldrich: [eddie] left you a message 2 days, 3 hours ago: yeah, I can do a meeting for IWC Online on Monday. What times work best for you all?
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[tantek] GWG, I think we can judge interest "anyone wants" by the participation in capturing / prototyping
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+464) "added a few more future events" (view diff)
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chrisaldrich I've got the munchkin on holiday today, so I'm around, but only checking into chat intermittently
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[tantek] !tell sknebel are we ready to switch to using city-specific HWC event wiki pages for February (and have Kaja auto-create aggregates per date)? Or should we do February like we did January and postpone the switch another month?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel postpone :/
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[eddie] [chrisaldrich] makes sense. If you are available at 5:30pm, 5:30-6:30 seems like the best time for everyone else
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[schmarty] found it! https://indieweb.org/Organizers/event_pages
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gregorlove.com edited /Organizers/event_pages (+15) "/* ToDos */ link mf2-to-iCalendar" (view diff)
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gRegorLove_ About to book my Austin flights, getting in Friday at 2pm instead of Thursday
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Loqi gRegorLove_: [tantek] left you a message 1 week, 2 days ago: WDYT of adding an event_photo field to https://indieweb.org/Template:one-day-event so we can easily add a photo URL (maybe show thumbnail?) to the h-event that it generates to more easily get a photo from an event to show-up in the newsletter (rather than always having to create a separate one-off page after the fact for an indieweb-related event that happened to have a photo)
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@calum_ryan Got a website? / Want to start a website? Homebrew Website Club London @ hub by Premier Inn London Covent Garden back again this Wednesday ⏰ from 19:00 https://hwclondon.co.uk/meetups/20190123 (https://calumryan.com/note/2368) (twitter.com/_/status/1087433182247559170)
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aaronpk those event pages look great :)
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[tantek] cool [gRegorLove] - I too will get in on Friday to AUS, though a few hours later than you
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[schmarty] calumryan++ great event permalinks for hwc london
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Loqi calumryan has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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[tantek] !tell calumryan when did you first start posting HWC London event pages on the hwclondon site? Can you add it (and permalink) to https://indieweb.org/event#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] would be good to curate a few of the "great" examples at the top
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[tantek] like we did for webmentions
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@depone Ihr denkt noch an den Homebrew Website Club Mittwoch Abend? Schon im Wiki eingetragen dass ihr kommt? https://indieweb.org/events/2019-01-23-homebrew-website-club#Karlsruhe (twitter.com/_/status/1087441561418452992)
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[tantek] We have enough events on enough days in /timeline that it makes me wonder what would it take to have an "On This Day" box for IndieWeb major events (things from /timeline)
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[tantek] e.g. the two year anniversary of Webmention REC was just 9d ago!
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aaronpk could be fun for the newsletter too!
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[tantek] the first IWC Baltimore was just a year ago yesterday!
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[tantek] aaronp, WebSub REC anniversary is coming up Wednesday!
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[tantek] and IndieAuth Note for that matter
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aaronpk omg
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[schmarty] that feels both so recent and so long ago!
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[tantek] could be a good day to post about where IndieAuth has grown in the past year
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aaronpk relatedly, i'm currently working on updating my quarterly review summary and wondering what this might look like to automate it and turn it into a digest format that's fun to read
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[tantek] quarterly review like for work work?
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aaronpk for personal work
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aaronpk I did one for Q1, and then promptly forgot the rest of the year https://aaronparecki.com/2018/04/01/39/q1-review
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] First Quarter 2018 in Review
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aaronpk my goal with doing that quarterly was to make the full year summary easy to write by having everything already summarized
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loqi.me edited /2018-review (+187) "[tantek] added "2019-01-20 [https://david.shanske.com/2019/01/20/state-of-the-indieweb-wordpress/ State of the Indieweb in WordPress] (year in review of IndieWeb in WordPress in 2018)" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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[tantek] I think quarterlies are too hard for that, too much of M1 and M2 is forgotten by the end of M3 of a Q
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[tantek] I do think monthly summaries are the way to (start to) go with that. Now that would make quarterlies "easy" and maybe annuals too
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[tantek] which reminds me
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[tantek] [schmarty] I sympathize with how much work it took *every* week to do the This Week podcasts. Would monthly be "easier"? Or just as much work as doing it every week for a month?
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[tantek] the challenge in going from weekly to monthly is I think it needs some amount of curation
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aaronpk hm my problem with monthly vs quarterly is the months go by too quick so I feel like i'm always doing that project
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[tantek] then again, it's impressive what cleverdevil built with 100% automation for his own monthly summaries
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[schmarty] monthly would be easier than weekly beyond the need to cut things
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[tantek] doing which project?
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aaronpk the summarizing
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[schmarty] (for TWIITIWAE)
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[schmarty] (err TWITIIWAE)
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[schmarty] i'd like to figure out some processes to make the TWITIWAE summarizing more piecemeal (which could also be more collaborative and enhance the published newsletter)
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[tantek] I do like the weekly deadline for the newsletter being a motivator to clean-up various wiki pages, make sure photos are uploaded / linked etc.
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[schmarty] tantek: a lot of TWITIWAE time is spent reading through wiki page diffs to see if anything "notable" happened. some automation and pre-filtering could save a lot of time there.
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[tantek] that's a good insight. I wonder if that's a clue that we could improve the quality of the signal in the "changed wiki pages" portion of the newsletter
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[schmarty] it's all pretty well captured here: https://indieweb.org/User:Martymcgui.re/this-week-indieweb-podcast
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[tantek] and if so, how
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aaronpk [schmarty]: what are you looking for to determine whether edits are "notable"? would a simple "number of words changed" filter work?
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aaronpk I could see dropping some edits from the text newsletter if they also aren't "notable"
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[tantek] (nah sometimes a key citation is added)
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[schmarty] aaronpk: https://indieweb.org/User:Martymcgui.re/this-week-indieweb-podcast#Exclusion.2FInclusion_Criteria
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aaronpk schmarty++
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Loqi schmarty has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (54 in all channels)
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aaronpk seems like those first four could be automated and might also benefit the newsletter
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[tantek] indeed
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sknebel I know there is some filtering of userpage edits already
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sknebel or maybe I'm thinking of the code that highlights the new user pages vs new user-sub-pages being created
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[tantek] aaronpk, any chance of hourly/half-hourly updates to the newsletter in the 24 hours before publishing?
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[tantek] I feel like some increase in iteration could really help those of us trying to fix stuff for the newsletter
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aaronpk sure, not a huge deal to bump that up. it does involve a lot of crawling so i'm not sure every 30 minutes is a good idea, but I can definitely add a bunch more regens
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[tantek] schmarty++ that's some good filtering criteria
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Loqi schmarty has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (55 in all channels)
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[tantek] aaronpk, even just hourly to start with would be great
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[schmarty] thanks! it's the result of a lot of iteration, haha. 😄
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[tantek] I feel like all this weekly filtering / summarizing analysis could have personal uses too
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aaronpk should Loqi report in IRC every time the regen is complete?
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[tantek] here in meta? I think that's fine. certainly no worse than wiki edits 🙂
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aaronpk true
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[tantek] weekly filtering / summarizing analysis could be helpful with auto-generating *personal* newsletters for folks that want a weekly summary instead of reading all your posts
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[tantek] what is a newsletter
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Loqi A newsletter is a regularly scheduled email that is sent out on a specific topic to an email list https://indieweb.org/newsletter
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[schmarty] tantek: also, i found a write-up of the proposed per-city HWC wiki pages and automation: https://indieweb.org/Organizers/event_pages
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[tantek] hmm, perhaps there's even a place for weekly summaries on one's own site
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aaronpk I get a lot of weekly summary emails from things like fitbit, and most of the time they are not that great
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aaronpk I think the wiki is unique in this regard
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[tantek] I really dislike the weekly summary from Swarm - see what your friends were up to - always massive FOMO-inducing and feelings of not having "done" enough 😕
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[tantek] (and I assume that means my prolific Swarm checkins may be unintentionally having a similar affect or just annoying people in their "see what your friends were up to" summaries 😕 )
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aaronpk huh I haven't looked at one of those in a long time
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[tantek] right I deliberately avoid looking at them for those reasons
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aaronpk hahaha you are all three of the checkins in my "most coins earned" section
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Loqi awesome
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[schmarty] swarm weekly summaries are the primary reason i disable swarm notifications
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[tantek] SMH 🤦
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[tantek] Since it's possible to automate decent monthly summaries (as [cleverdevil] has), it must be similarly possible to automate decent weekly summaries
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[tantek] (for a personal site)
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aaronpk some of the challenge i'm noticing is that some of the content i'm including in my (manual) summary is not actually from my website
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[tantek] so you're identifying holes!
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aaronpk well like percolator.today is an example
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[schmarty] aaronpk: i went looking for a permalink for the most recent percolator on your site so i could reply to you somewhere we could have a back-and-forth
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aaronpk hmmmm
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[schmarty] (since percolator.today accepts but doesn't show WMs)
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aaronpk it does show them!
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aaronpk your comment is there, and I also saw that one in my reader!
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[schmarty] oh! i thought it didn't for some reason
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aaronpk i've gotta get better at remembering to post on my site when I do small updates to things
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sknebel Starts to sound on topic, not meta 🙂
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[kevinmarks] The swarm summary is not so much fomo as "how did Tantek get 495 coins for 1 checkin?"
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[tantek] Gotta time those every 1k checkins on 3x multiplier venues/stickers
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GWG Did we ever set a time?
jgmac1106 and [eddie] joined the channel
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[eddie] GWG are you talking about IWC Online Planning?
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GWG [eddie]: Correct