#meta 2020-01-22

2020-01-22 UTC
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[jgmac1106] [manton] just filed the travel approval to attend. Pinewood Derby this weekend. So no conflict. Fingers crossed boss approves
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[manton] [jgmac1106] Excellent!
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@schlagetown ↩️ Some favorites: - School for Poetic Computation (@sfpc) - @vgr & Ribbonfarm - software: @AREdotNA & @RoamResearch - books by Hofstadter, Alexander, Jacobs, Caro, Borges, Calvino - antidisciplinarathon (see @hypotext post) - indieweb / p2p web - Long Now Foundation, @stewartbrand (twitter.com/_/status/1219843751486595072)
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@MitchWagner Every time I read up about IndieWeb get a headache. So confusing. I get that regular people may never be interested in IndieWeb but the technology is downright hostile to people who don't already understand it. (twitter.com/_/status/1219854812545609733)
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tantek.com edited /silo-quits (+196) "Silo quitters 2020 / jlelse Twitter" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ Sorry to hear that. I'm very happy to talk about it here or at http://chat.indieweb.org The basic idea is straightforward - have your own website and post things there. The various specs are a our supporting that goal, and connecting personal sites to social media silos. (twitter.com/_/status/1219896483111227393)
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[tantek] KevinMarks++ for a kind reply and excellent summary
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Loqi KevinMarks has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (46 in all channels)
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[tantek] anyone go to the Internet Archive meetup? https://twitter.com/ianjohnlee/status/1219820596650864640
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@ianjohnlee 1/ Key moments and takeaways from the @internetarchive meetup on decentralized social media with startups, founders, researchers, and the @Twitter @bluesky team https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EO2sXXZUcAAYWib.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1219820596650864640)
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[Rose] Continuing from the main channel
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[Rose] No, but reading that tweet and knowing what I know about Mitch, he's trying to find out how something like a reply works, and then getting stuck because he wants a few sentence summaries on what different parts of the "plumbing" are and how they work at a high level
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[tantek] so what he's really looking for is a developer introduction then
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[tantek] which is VERY different from "super simple introduction to the IndieWeb"
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[Rose] Something perhaps below a developer level intro and above a generic "what is the indieweb"
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[tantek] there may be an opportunity for that
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[tantek] something more technical than what typical users care about
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[tantek] but not full-on developer details
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[Rose] Yes. With links to the developer details in the right places
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[tantek] Yes
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[tantek] I like the implied framing in your example above "how something ... works"
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[tantek] Maybe we need a section or page "How does it work?"
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[Rose] Yes, that's what I think a lot of people would like
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[tantek] some people
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[tantek] most people just want it to work, without hassle
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[Rose] But is there anything that "just works"? Or if they want something other that micro.blog?
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[tantek] and frankly do not care how it works. e.g. FB and Twitter users do not care at all how those work
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[Rose] I know I really struggled, and honestly am probably still missing good chunks on what different parts of everything are.
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[tantek] using micro.blog is the only "no struggle" option right now
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[tantek] so yes, any other path you choose will be a learning experience
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[Rose] I think a lot of people don't see micro.blog as the place for them necessarily, so this article would help fill the gap between "super simple intro" + use micro.blog and "figure it all out entirely by yourself"
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[tantek] I don't understand "don't see micro.blog as the place for them necessarily" - why?
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[tantek] do they have something against "micro.blog" the name, the brand, the service?
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[tantek] I don't think "other than x" is useful framing
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[Rose] They don't necessarily want the community aspect of it, or like the look and feel of it
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[tantek] There must be a specific reason otherwise it is not actionable
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[tantek] "not x" is not a specific reason
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[tantek] there must be a specific thing they *want*
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[tantek] the "not x" crowd will never be satisfied, and it's not useful to spend time designing for that
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[Rose] Personally I want more flexibility in many things than micro.blog offers/has offered in the past. But I don't know what others want, because I'm not them
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[tantek] right, so it's not helpful/useful to guess tat that (what others want)
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[tantek] "more flexibility" is a good start. more flexibility in what features?
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[Rose] Zapier integration and post templates are the two key ones nowadays.
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@ModernRetroMe I own all my content. You'll find everything I post to social media on my own blog. My social media accounts aren't really mine & can disappear tomorrow if the company wills. If you'd like to learn more about IndieWeb technologies, drop me a line. I'd love to share. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1219903210900656131)
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[tantek] neat
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[tantek] what is Zapier?
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Loqi Zapier is a task automation service, similar to IFTTT, with free and paid tiers https://indieweb.org/zapier
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[tantek] Rose, Zapier is still plumbing, what's the actual feature you feel you need Zapier for?
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[Rose] When a variety of sites post my content, I create link posts back to these posts automatically.
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[tantek] Zappier << plumbing
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Loqi Sorry, I couldn't find a page named "Zappier" or similar
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[tantek] Zapier << plumbing
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Loqi ok, I added "[[plumbing]]" to a brand new "See Also" section of /zapier https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67959&oldid=53295
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loqi.me edited /zapier (+32) "[tantek] added "[[plumbing]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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[tantek] "When a variety of sites post my content" <- how are other sites posting *your* content?
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[Rose] I give it to them in exchange for payment. They post under my name, but on their schedule.
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[tantek] Do you post a copy of the content to your own site too? Or only a link?
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[Rose] I have a copy in another location, but I tend to open the opening paragraph and a link.
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[Rose] I could probably hook something up with MicroPub via REST on Zapier, but then things get complex much more quickly.
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jeremycherfas I'll just throw in the WithKnown is almost as easy as micro.blog and does not necessarily have the community aspect if you don't want it.
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sgreger [Rose]: Calum's https://indiewebguides.org/ maybe going in that direction?
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sgreger (re your earlier onboarding discussion...)
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[tantek] jeremycherfas, are you comparing an open source project to a turnkey service and actually saying "almost as easy"?!?
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jeremycherfas Yes, I am. Why?
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[tantek] setting up an open source project is never "easy" by any non-expert measure
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[tantek] if withknown. com were still open to sign-ups, that would be a different discussion
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jeremycherfas Which is why I used a modifier. Now, you and I may disagree on what exactly "almost as" means in practice, but I am certainly happy to describe it that way, particularly in light of what [Rose] and you said about "Something perhaps below a developer level intro and above a generic "what is the indieweb""
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jeremycherfas I could equally well point out that micro.blog is only "no struggle" if you have a credit card.
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[tantek] nope. any place you'd setup an open source project requires webhosting which requires a credit card, same with domain name
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[tantek] no setup of any open source project is "almost as" easy as a turnkey service, again, for non-experts/non-hobbyists
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[tantek] I admit this is presuming need to use a command line, which Withknown now requires since there are no longer any webhosts that let you flip a switch to get a withknown instance
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jeremycherfas Who said anything about "non-hobbyists"?
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[tantek] if they're a hobbyist I expect them to show up in chat
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[tantek] instead of secondhand via Rose
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[Rose] Some people might not feel comfortable joining another chat first to figure this stuff out, it can be quite an intimidating prospect.
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[Rose] I know it took me quite a while to join the chat here because I wasn't sure if it would be a good fit for me
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[tantek] That's a very good point Rose
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[tantek] Do you think we can improve that with our description on /chat ?
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[tantek] We really should do what we can to make the main #indieweb channel welcoming to anyone (per CoC) with any level of personal interest in their own site, even if they don't have one yet
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[Rose] Perhaps, but the nature of chat is that it flows by quite quickly, which is one reason I asked some time ago if there was a forum, it's easier to scan and see if there are topics that apply to you.
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[tantek] the wiki is where to look for topics
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[tantek] forums are a place for discussions to get lost and never found again, so they happen over and over
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[tantek] kind of like email lists 😛
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[tantek] and not being able to actually find conclusions
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[Rose] Chat is exactly that, forums with a good search are a nice community tool.
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[Rose] That depends on the forum
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[tantek] I'd be interested in seeing an example of that
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[jgmac1106] jermerycherfas if we can find someone to update the installatron script we can get Known back to a bit of of easier
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[tantek] like an actual good example, as all the ones I've dived into (e.g. Apple online support etc.) are next to useless
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[jgmac1106] Known is not easy in any way for most, anything that involves terminal can't fall in theat category
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] that's what I mean, hence I'm trying to understand in what frame of reference could [jeremycherfas] consider withknown "almost as easy"
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[tantek] it's not easy understanding how it is "almost as easy" 😛
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jgmac1106 i think he meant once set up everything just works, except now you have to do manual updates, just need to get the insllatron plugin fixed and every webhost will put Known back in cPanel
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jgmac1106 I have talked to name.com and reclaimhosting.com about adding micro.blog butit isn’t LAMP so harder for most, not open source and they aren’t set up for a revenue share or freemium modwl
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jgmac1106 might be something gwg and WP crew could look at as well, a fully packaged WP with all plugings ready to go that could be launched from a cPanel, pine.blog has been new and interesting to watch, mblaney and ihazawebsite ifs making progress
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jgmac1106 Users I interact with the issue they have with micro.blog is not understanding how they build a homepgae and website from the splash page, they see it as JUST a community from first glance
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jeremycherfas I wonder what happened with zipperhost.com? Site is currently available. I seem to recall they were thinking about turnkey WithKnown.
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jeremycherfas Maybe it changed to https://zipperhost.cloud/
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[jgmac1106] Reclaim will add it again but the installatron plugin needs to be installed, maintenance of mantaining launcher themsleves got to be too much after 0.9.2
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[jgmac1106] name.com as well
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[jgmac1106] speaking of which they did a good job on their website redesign kinda of speaking to the "how it works" audience while not getting too jargony for john q. public
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jgmac1106 this needs a bump from php 5.4 to php 7+ https://github.com/idno/installatron
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Loqi [idno] installatron: Installatron scripts for use with Known.
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[tantek] The challenge of "how do I make a home page that represents me" vs. "how do I post on my stream" is kinda fascinating and I'm wondering if that's worth an #indieweb channel discussion
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[tantek] where micro.blog handles only the latter well (currently)
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[jgmac1106] it handles the "home page" stuff well, just hidden...once you have the phrase "easy writing with markdown" you are beyond 95% of users
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[jgmac1106] I think in the mitch case it is a user who has had a website for X number of years and wants to then add all the building blocks, support indieweb, collect and display webmentions....that is difficulut, I could never do it
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[jgmac1106] my 2020 goal is to spend the year trying to get webmentions to display on my site....really by Summit...but I will proably need the summer months
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jgmac1106 rose, tantek had idea, we should use MDN for a clearer how to guide than the wiki. Get folks who use and built the specs to create docs for all the building blocks
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jgmac1106 be a good IWC session as well
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www.jvt.me edited /rsvp (+168) "/* Calendar integration */" (view diff)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] where is irrelevant if you don't have good enough what. We can use MDN once we have stuff that's "good enough" on the wiki. The problem is not use MDN vs use IndieWeb wiki, the problem is actually writing the good accessible content.
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[tantek] There is nothing stopping you from writing "a clearer how to guide than the wiki" on the wiki, in your own User: pages etc.
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[tantek] That said, we should start adding stubs for how web developers can add support for these technologies to web sites. Not necessarily their own.
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[tantek] Adding the building blocks to an existing website is another interesting use-case. I do think that's firmly in column three however
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[KevinMarks] If we can find a way to work with good communicators like Mitch to do it as well
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[jgmac1106] Yeah I could never write to an audience like Mitch, I do need to swing back through the getting started page but..time...
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[jgmac1106] Might just propose some gardening sessions at IWC but I like approach we took of porting mature content from micrformats.org to MDN
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[jgmac1106] A page for webmentions, IndieAuth, micropub, and microsub.... Where it is just documentation and not our text structure of IndieWeb examples, non examples, brainstorming, criticism
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[jgmac1106] I am happy to read and punch up technical content but should be written by people using tech.... Techincal writing is the most difficult genre.... Beyond honest reflection
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] I also find major individual page rewrites noy too effective... Saw it happen with Get Started WP....there are like five versions but the live page doesn't change
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[LewisCowles] https://github.com/idno/installatron/issues/4
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Loqi [mapkyca] #4 Scripts are hopelessly old
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[jgmac1106] Incremental change through lazy consensus or wiki editathons work, whole cloth rewrites often fail
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tantek.com edited /expand_a_page (+1703) "Brainstorming / New Common Sections / How does this work / What can this do" (view diff)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] agreed on "whole cloth rewrites", and frankly, they're usually far too ego-centric, as if that one author has the magical empathy to understand the "real" perspective that is needed and no one previously did.
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[tantek] sometimes that may be the case, but we should recognize that's the exception, not the rule
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tantek.com edited /expand_a_page (+130) "note source of why a "How does this work" section could be helpful" (view diff)
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[tantek] [Rose] I tried to capture/brainstorm a way the wiki could be improved per the use-case you pointed out: https://indieweb.org/expand_a_page#How_does_this_work please review and see if this is the kind of thing you were getting at
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[tantek] If it sounds like a good idea in theory, we can try improving a few feature pages accordingly, and see if it helps
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[Rose] I think we also need an overview page, otherwise it's too spread out
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[tantek] overview for the "curious"?
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[Rose] Yes, because while you're curious that doesn't mean you have time to go digging around in the wiki to find the right terms
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[tantek] agreed
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[Rose] One thing I struggled with a lot was figuring out what terms were important to start with
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[tantek] that's another good use-case. *which* jargon terms to start with 🙂
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[tantek] we could have a top level /How_does_this_work page that provided that overview
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[tantek] as well as specific sections for specific features that go into more detail
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[Rose] It might be nice to have some kind of diagram (assuming we can make it accessible) where each part links out to the right page
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[tantek] I feel like I've given the "How does this work" as a talk
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[tantek] yeah
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[tantek] we kind of do have that diagram already
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[tantek] what is diagram
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Loqi Visual representation, sketch notes from talks, building block logos, images, and slide deck templates you can use in your talks https://indieweb.org/diagram
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[Rose] Not a great page title I must say. I wouldn't expect a diagram to be on its own page 😄
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[tantek] ^^^ does that answer your question of "what terms were important to start with"
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[tantek] agreed about page title etc., that's cleanup we can do
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[tantek] however is that the kind of diagram you mean? or something else?
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[tantek] one problem at a time please 🙂
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[Rose] I think that's kind of what I mean, but people looking for this kind of content might also be trying to compare it to terms they already know, such as RSS.
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[tantek] or think they know
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[Rose] Not sure that "similar to known technology X" belongs on this page, but worth thinking about
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[tantek] there is a massive misunderstanding of "RSS" by people who think they already know it
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[tantek] the whole "why can't we just go back to RSS" crowd
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jeremycherfas They're marginally more engaged than the whole "RSS is dead" crowd
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[Rose] The diagram is good, but I think we definitely need more spacing, and the steps listed out one after another with the diagram being built step by step would be good. And samples of "an app to log into uisng the IndieAuth" standard
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[tantek] jeremycherfas I feel there's a better chance of getting the "RSS is dead" crowd, because they're not wrong 😂
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[tantek] whereas the RSS nostalgists are out of touch
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[Rose] So "Janice logs into an app, such as Quill [link] using the IndieAuth [link] standard"
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[tantek] agreed on both points [Rose]
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jeremycherfas I'll be watching how that goes, [tantek]
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[Rose] Though it also specifically says social reader in step 2, which might be separate
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[tantek] jeremycherfas, which, Flickr or RSS?
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[Rose] Do we have documented "how do I post a note to my site" type flows?
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[tantek] yes I still need to split out the social reader stuff
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[tantek] Rose, depends on which audience
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jeremycherfas "getting the "RSS is Dead" crowd"
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[Rose] Any to start with
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[tantek] Rose, yes on /note#How_to
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[Rose] Ok, good start. I think we might also benefit from a step before that. "How can I post a note to my site"
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[Rose] How can I post
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[Rose] Loqi is taking a nap, or that isn't a trigger.
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Loqi I think that isn't a trigger.
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[Rose] Thanks Loqi 🤣
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Loqi you're welcome, [Rose]
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[Rose] What is a post?
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Loqi A post is either a piece of content or the act of publishing that content (usually in a way that is shared) https://indieweb.org/post
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[Rose] https://indieweb.org/post#How_to < These are very philosophy oriented, rather than "what can I use to post" which is what I would expect to find
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[jgmac1106] Yeah that page was supposed to be for all reusable assets not a page for the diagram workflow itself. Maybe it deserves it's own?
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[jgmac1106] I am in the RSS never stopped working crowd. All edu bloggers and OpenPedagogy workflow built on RSS
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[tantek] I suppose that's like POTS landlines never stopped working 😛
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[tantek] ok [Rose] I'll look at /post#How_to next
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[KevinMarks] the talk we did at redecentralize was a bit like that- we took an interaction and then dug down through the bit that made it work
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@jgmac1106 Here is the #edu106 syallbus for this semester @scsu: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18xB8YXcLV4oko4kF_LnpZAdNuQE6ztJl-G7zXHgVcyI/edit?usp=sharing wanna check out what students did last semester: https://edu106.jgregorymcverry.com/ looking forward to showing students value of #IndieWeb as they begin to craft their identities online (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/hpE4W) (twitter.com/_/status/1220008282271768576)
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[tantek] KevinMarks, lots of "curious" hobbyist types at Redecentralize conference
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[tantek] I'm wondering how to categorize the "curious" vs the "CMS user"
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[tantek] or is "curious" an adjective that could apply to a "service user", a "CMS user", or a "developer"?
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[tantek] are there non-curious developers? (they just want to get something coded, they don't really care how/why it actually works)
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[Rose] I would define curious as "has read the general description and is looking for more detail, but is not yet ready/willing/lacks the technical knowledge to read the developer docs"
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[Rose] Ignore CMS/developer/service titles for now.
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[tantek] I think it matters because each of those three approach curiosity differently
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[tantek] and are likely curious about different things
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[Rose] Possibly, but we could start with a generic "more detail than the simple intro we have" version, and then source opinions from those groups as to what it's missing and go from there
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loqi.me created /annual_report (+162) "prompted by [tantek] and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /annual_report (+996) "add some examples" (view diff)
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@aaronpk ↩️ You might be surprised what you can do with Microformats... https://aaronparecki.com/2018/03/12/17/building-an-indieweb-reader Even this tweet originated from my own website using tools built on Microformats. (twitter.com/_/status/1220021316964642816)
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@megarush1024 AmandaCon has all my internet friends from #WordPress and #a11y and #Indieweb plus others who don't fit a community and we have fun over $10,000 worth of food and drink. https://twitter.com/Seattlejo/status/1219345191854723072 (twitter.com/_/status/1220025953855922177)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ OK. I'll have a look - Your site is at the beginning of microformats support: https://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnystudio107.com (twitter.com/_/status/1220031484934881280)
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tantek.com edited /metrics (+469) "stub with definition, links" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /environmental_impact (+372) "prompted by [tantek] and dfn added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /environmental_impact (+73) "[tantek] added "Corporate example: https://www.apple.com/environment/" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /annual_report (+31) "[tantek] added "[[metrics]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /Indieweb_for_Journalism (+327) "/* Examples in the Wild */ MIT Technology Review & David Byrne" (view diff)
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@ChrisAldrich This essay by @DBtodomundo makes a fascinating point about people and interactions. It's the sort of thing that many in the design and #IndieWeb communities should read and think about as they work. #ruinedbydesign @darkpatterns https://boffosocko.com/2020/01/22/eliminating-the-human-david-byrne/ (twitter.com/_/status/1220077899090284544)
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tantek.com edited /environmental_impact (+382) "clean-up and separate Corporate Examples, posts about, brainstorming" (view diff)
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@rederer @chstaffner mir gefällt der falter-leserbrief. hohe ziele, weit weg: aber genau da müssen wir hin. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1220095875386507264)
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tantek.com edited /environmental_impact (+313) "calculator.carbonfootprint, note burying of more impactful food and clothing items" (view diff)
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@steveivy I’ve added POSSE-style notes to #goldfrog. https://indieweb.org/POSSE (monkinetic txt-b0cb1a5) (twitter.com/_/status/1220110287681884160)
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tantek.com edited /environmental_impact (+76) "/* Posts About */ documents her current practices" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /environmental_impact (+263) "IndieWeb Examples: rhiaro's post counts as at least a documentation of her practices to reduce / minimize impact" (view diff)
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@t Many companies publish their environmental impacts, often annual metrics and specific practices, on their websites. Are any individuals doing this on their #IndieWeb sites? https://indieweb.org/environmental_impact E.g. @rhiaro has https://rhiaro.co.uk/2019/09/reflections-climate Beyond the ... https://tantek.com/t54i3 (twitter.com/_/status/1220128307515183104)
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tantek.com edited /environmental_impact (+6) "/* Posts About */ posts*" (view diff)
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[tantek] Alright I put out a public call for indieweb examples of people publishing their personal environmental impacts, we'll see if anyone steps up!