#meta 2020-08-31

2020-08-31 UTC
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@booksandbbq About to go full-on crazy with IndieWeb and Linux and encrypted email. I mean, I'm already like 75% crazy as it concerns these things, but about to go 100%. Getting dadgum tired of the normie internet & its selling of people as data & its participation in the surveillance state (twitter.com/_/status/1300251441748209673)
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[chrisaldrich] context collapse << 2020-01-13 Nicholas Carr [http://www.roughtype.com/?p=8724 From context collapse to content collapse] has some good implied questions about how to improve social feeds, feed readers, online journalism
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Loqi ok, I added "2020-01-13 Nicholas Carr [http://www.roughtype.com/?p=8724 From context collapse to content collapse] has some good implied questions about how to improve social feeds, feed readers, online journalism" to the "See Also" section of /context_collapse https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72397&oldid=68731
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[chrisaldrich] accessibility << 2020-06-11 Olu Niyiawosusi *[*https://alistapart.com/article/building-the-woke-web/ Building the Woke Web: Web Accessibility, Inclusion & Social Justice]
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Loqi ok, I added "2020-06-11 Olu Niyiawosusi *[*https://alistapart.com/article/building-the-woke-web/ Building the Woke Web: Web Accessibility, Inclusion & Social Justice]" to the "See Also" section of /accessibility https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72398&oldid=70159
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@JesperBylund ↩️ Sounds lovely. I really like the indieweb trend with /now and webmentions. Feels retro, but also personal, and adds something to the network. (twitter.com/_/status/1300305338122547200)
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ohhelloana.blog edited /indiewebring (+29) "adding myself to IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /User:Jamesg.app (+287) (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /User:Jamesg.app (+3) "/* jamesg.app */" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /chat-names (+92) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /quantified_self (+99) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /quantified_self (+722) (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /quantified_self (+375) (view diff)
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[James_Gallaghe] [chrisaldrich] I took your advice and started to flesh out the wiki a bit on quantified self. I’d love to see more contributions to that page because it seems like there are so many IndieWeb sites that track QS data.
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jamesg.app edited /indiewebring (+17) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /indiewebring (+4) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /indiewebring (-3) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /indiewebring (-2) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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jamesg.app created /Template:jamesgoca (+113) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline| https://jamesg.app/assets/coffeeshop.jpg}} [[User:jamesg.app|jamesgoca]]</span>"" (view diff)
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jamesg.app edited /User:Jamesg.app (+849) (view diff)
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /chat-names (+2) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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sknebel [Murray]: the sparklines are just template pages, e.g. https://indieweb.org/Template:murray (I'm assuming thats the one you want to edit ;))
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[Murray] it is, but I couldn't work out the URL (and the sparkline itself just redirects to a different URL :D)
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[Murray] thanks!
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[Murray] sknebel++
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Loqi sknebel has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (46 in all channels)
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sknebel yeah - the {{ }} just tells mediawiki to look for the page with the Template: prefix and include that
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /Template:murray (-2) (view diff)
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[Murray] finally managed to fix the broken link 😅
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[Murray] ^ see that's the missing piece of information. Couldn't find anything that told me how MediaWiki was working out where to reference.
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /related_reading (+579) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+393) (view diff)
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /bookmark (+686) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /search (+185) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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Zegnat [grantcodes]: what sknebel was refering to in #indieweb is that the MediaWiki extension used for login on indieweb.org has a list of domains it will refuse: https://github.com/indieweb/mediawiki-extensions/blob/196b02b6c688b1a026b51f3c80d4e912304899b8/LassoAuth.php#L18-L26
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Zegnat I guess this could be a problem if indielogin.com allows for those domains, and the MediaWiki extension does not provide clear feedback once a user returns from indielogin to the wiki.
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[grantcodes] Ah yeah that'll be it
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[grantcodes] Probably worth listing those somewhere more obvious - if they're not already, I've not had a real look
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /posts (+328) "/* Footer sections */" (view diff)
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Zegnat What are blocked domains?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "blocked domains" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "blocked domains is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat What as blocked subdomains?
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Zegnat What are blocked subdomains?
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Loqi The IndieWeb wiki requires that you use your own domain to login rather than a subdomain of someone else’s domain, and thus has blocked subdomains of several popular and typically free blogging or static file hosts https://indieweb.org/blocked_subdomains
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Zegnat There it is ^^^
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /bookmark (+280) "/* Murray (theAdhocracy) */" (view diff)
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Zegnat Sadly that page does not seem to refer to any previous discussions we have had about easing up on it. Which I am pretty sure we have had …
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theadhocracy.co.uk edited /bookmark (-1) "/* Murray (theAdhocracy) */" (view diff)
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aaronpk i'm tempted to allow github.io pages specifically
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aaronpk because that's almost certainly a sign someone is ready to set up their own site
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aaronpk still not sure how i feel about shared domains like tumblr.com or whatever tho
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aaronpk that said, i'm having trouble finding the list of blocked domains
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sknebel scroll up :D
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sknebel also I knew that sounded familiar: https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/48
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Loqi [sknebel] #48 Give error message to users logging in with banned domains
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aaronpk oh look at that it even has a link to the code
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aaronpk there must be a mediawiki hook for adding an error message though
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@OFNblog Autonomy Online: A Case For The IndieWeb by ana.rdrg@hotmail.com (Ana Rodrigues) via Articles on Smashing Magazine — For Web Designers And Developers https://smashingmagazine.com/2020/08/autonomy-online-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1300430008046026757)
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aaronpk okay I can returrn a string that gets shown to the user. it's not pretty but it's probably better than a silent failure
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aaronparecki.com created /MediaWiki:Loginprompt (+73) "Created page with "[https://sso.indieweb.org/login?url=https%3A%2F%2Findieweb.org%2F Log In]"" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Loginprompt (+61) (view diff)
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aaronpk well that was fun
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[tantek] I disagree with allowing github.io subdomains as logins to IndieWeb. Getting a domain is easier than setting up a github.io, and I'd rather discourage drive-by dev-types TBH
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[tantek] not the greatest path to improving community diversity IMO
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[tantek] if a dev doesn't want to commit to their own domain, why do they want/need to edit the wiki? do they actually believe in IndieWeb or are they using it as a place to propagate their "proposals"?
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aaronpk See main channel for a use case
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aaronpk "I want to document what I'm doing while building my website that isn't yet online"
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aaronpk the counter argument of course is that putting up a temporary page isn't that much additional effort
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aaronpk especially since you could still host that on github pages
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[tantek] ^ was just about to say
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[tantek] "public notes on how I build my site" <-- use the auto-created README.md on your github pages
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[tantek] README.me is "just as easy" to edit with the GitHub UI and Markdown as it is to edit a wiki page on the IndieWeb wiki
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[tantek] maybe that's something we should put in the starter project
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[tantek] like a site-notes.md that has something like a User page's "working on" list to get folks started
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[tantek] what is the starter project
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "starter project" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "starter project is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronparecki.com edited /blocked_subdomains (-84) "login is not a verb" (view diff)
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aaronpk that /blocked_subdomains page is now the most likely place someone will end up on if they try to log in with a blocked subdomain since it's in the error message displayed now, so we can also add more details there
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[tantek] ah ok we can make that friendlier
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Zegnat Note that the case from #indieweb was specifically someone who already had a site hosted on their domain, and were not yet ready to pull the trigger to launch their new indiewebified site
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Zegnat So the temporary or placeholder page did not seem to be an option specifically because of that.
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Zegnat they even wondered if rel-me in HTTP header would work. Probably as a way for them to use indielogin without changing the current contents of their site
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[tantek] we allow rel=webmention in HTTP headers, so why not rel=me?
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aaronpk i could add HTTP header support to indielogin.com
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aaronpk seems like an edge case but i don't really have an issue with it
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aaronpk i'd have to decide priority of headers over HTML tags and such, especially if multiple are found. i'm thinking the presence of any rel=me HTTP header would make it ignore everything in the HTML
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aaronpk https://indielogin.com/setup#advanced
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Zegnat Could you not list all of them? You give the choice betwenen multiple providers if I add multiple rel="" to my HTML, right?
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aaronpk i could, but there's already some fancy rules in there like if you have rel="me authn" then it only considers the "authn" ones
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Zegnat I guess you would be extending “Hidden Links” to also check Link headers, and leave everything else the same
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Zegnat Same fancy rules would apply, I am guessing. You would add them in the “discovery” step before filtering based on authn. (Then authn would also be supported in the Link headers)
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aaronpk is there a partticular reason you think they should be combined?
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aaronpk it seems like a security feature to prioitize link headesr over HTML if they are present
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Zegnat You could do that, but I am not sure that matters at all in this case? You present the user with their pick of providers anyway. I am not sure you actually win anything by prefering one over the other.
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Zegnat an rel-authn within the HTML might be a more wanted alternative than a rel-me from the HTTP headers?
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aaronpk it matters less on a one-user domain, but if more than one user has access, or if users can edit HTML but not Link headers, then the operator of the site can have a more secure way to set the allowed providers that users can't override with HTML
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Zegnat Hmm, true. I guess I am just wondering if that extra fancyness has any real world value in practice or if it adds complexity for very little reason.
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Zegnat Your product though, aaronpk, so whatever you think is best in implementation ;)
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aaronpk oh another one, if you show webmention comments but haven't sanitized HTML right, someone might be able to sneak in a rel=me link. but if you set an HTTP header then it wouldn't matter
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Zegnat True
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Zegnat But at that point we are slowly edging towards recommending HTTP headers for relmeauth, and I wanted to avoid getting there xD
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /anonymity (+354) "changing dfn" (view diff)
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aaronpk It's already possible for IndieAuth so why not?
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[jgmac1106] aaronpk I took a try, feel free to revise
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[tantek] aaronpk, I'd say start with the simpler option first (treating it the same as hidden links as Zegnat suggests), and document the security concern
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aaronpk it remains to be seen which is actually simpler
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[tantek] rel=me is supposed to be additive, to a set of options, so that seems more in line with the spirit of the spec
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] pseudonymous identities also don't require use of your "real name". Anonymity is different, you can't even connect different instances of anonymous behavior, that's the key point.
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[jgmac1106] okay after work will work on dfn trying to capture the difference
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@dealmeida ↩️ http://IndieWeb.org (twitter.com/_/status/1300463557952245760)
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@xgurix Autonomy Online: A Case For The IndieWeb https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2020/08/autonomy-online-indieweb/ @smashingmag (twitter.com/_/status/1300470345695100928)
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tantek.com edited /anonymity (+819) "dfn includes disconnecting interactions, How to / domains, IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] ^^ attempt at an improvement, feel free to rewrite / iterate on further
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aaronparecki.com edited /anonymity (-21) "commentpara.de is on the list of [[blocked_subdomains]]" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] [Ana_Rodrigues] was that tweet from @OFNblog with your Smashing artil doxxing your email address? Can we help by reporting their account for abuse?
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[Ana_Rodrigues] [chrisaldrich] I just messaged one of the senior editors at Smashing because the author’s emails are available on the feed and I didn’t know that. I’m emailing the owners of that account now to kindly ask them to delete that tweet. I had a look at the feed and I’m not the only one : /
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aaronpk what a weird thing to do
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[Ana_Rodrigues] unintentional but… could be harmful sadly.
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tantek.com edited /blocked_subdomains (+413) "stub, call to action to participate via Get Started" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk ^ see if my suggestions there read ok with the flow of using it as an "error page" destination
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aaronparecki.com edited /blocked_subdomains (+9) "/* Blocked Subdomains */ -jargon" (view diff)
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aaronpk looks good!
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aaronpk i like the addition of the how to use with your domain!
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[chrisaldrich] That is bizarre that they'd put the author's email address in <author> tag in the feed and not on the page... Do let us know if they don't fix it as I think a few here have some personal relationships that could help to remedy the problem.
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[tantek] blame RSS
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[tantek] the <author> tag never had any proper spec / interop either
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[tantek] thanks for the review aaronpk, appreciated. if we can think of more ways to try to help folks who get that login failure, we can hopefully add it there
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@FindNerd2 Autonomy Online: A Case For The IndieWeb https://ift.tt/31L0r8G Follow Us... (twitter.com/_/status/1300476233742979072)
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[tantek] our WP . com page is missing instructions for how to use it with your own domain name so I just linked to the top level page instead of a subsection
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aaronpk i see... the twitter bot just copies whatever is the RSS author tag
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[tantek] I've asked the #indieweb-wordpress folks to add a specific subsection for that
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www.jeremycherfas.net edited /anonymity (+167) "Trying to be a bit more explanatory" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /anonymity (+17) "hey dfn tags would help lol" (view diff)
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[tantek] [jeremycherfas]++ nice rewording and expansion
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Loqi [jeremycherfas] has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (42 in all channels)
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[jeremycherfas] Thanks.
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tantek.com created /pseudonymous (+26) "r" (view diff)
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[Ana_Rodrigues] Oh the owner of that OFN blog just replied to me and it is now deleted : )
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[chrisaldrich] I scrolled back in their feed and they had a similar tweet (to the now deleted one) that didn't have the email address. odd...
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[chrisaldrich] Let us know how the Smashing side works out.
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[Ana_Rodrigues] all the links from smashing (on that twitter account) have the author’s emails. But yes, I will let you know once I hear back from Smashing. Thank you!
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[chrisaldrich] [Ana_Rodrigues] Because of the time difference, I'll mention that I'm sure Jeremy knows Rachel Andrew, the editor of Smashing if you need a direct connection to the top.
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[chrisaldrich] I have to imagine it's a benign oversight on their part that they'll want to fix immediately.
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aaronpk Twitter << mobile signup flow as of 2020-08-31 https://tinysubversions.com/notes/twitter-usernames/
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Loqi ok, I added "mobile signup flow as of 2020-08-31 https://tinysubversions.com/notes/twitter-usernames/" to the "See Also" section of /Twitter https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72433&oldid=71981
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[tantek] I feel like there's even a meme about "Hello first name and bunch of numbers with a strong opinion"
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aaronparecki.com edited /quantified_self (+205) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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@2ternets Autonomy Online: A Case For The IndieWeb : https://ift.tt/31L0r8G by ana.rdrg@hotmail.com (Ana Rodrigues) (twitter.com/_/status/1300494414289174528)
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jacky Getting a domain is _not_ easier than setting up a GitHub Pages site. GitHub Pages doesn't require money. That point re: it being centered around developers is key (and GitHub is really trying to gently break that mold but lol)
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aaronpk you don't even need to use git or a git app to use github pages, it's possible entirely from the website, kind of like editing a wiki
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jacky Yup
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GWG jmac: You free next Wednesday?
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jmac GWG: In theory I'm free other than around the noon hour Eastern time
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GWG https://events.indieweb.org/2020/09/homebrew-website-club-east-coast-timezone-SZgFkW4D1IU5
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GWG I put something on
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GWG I figured that West Coast is fine at its current frequency and we'd just see about a monthly online East Coast to gauge interest
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jmac Sounds good! I took a few weeks off from IndieWeb stuff but I've been meaning to get back in; thank you for the ping
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GWG jmac: I am trying to build the online contacts I lack in real life
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GWG jmac: Still hoping for a IWC East in late October
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jmac GWG: I hear you. I am coincidentally paying attention to chats like this again thanks to my latest attempt to make chat manageable and not a complete attention-drain. (My undying, impatient obsession with trying to wrangle order out of the fractured and siloed chat universe is not unlike my attraction to IndieWeb, but is otherwise not exactly on topic)
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GWG jmac: Topic for next week? Order to chaos?
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jmac Sounds good to me
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@roelgroeneveld En meteen ook even mijn Instagram-posts handmatig doorgezet naar m’n blog: https://roel.io Dat moet ik toch eens automatiseren… #indieweb #posse #notyet (twitter.com/_/status/1300520992893214727)
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tantek.com edited /A_Domain_of_One's_Own (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /HTML (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-10-29-hwc-lisbon/ (+36) "linky" (view diff)
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[Ana_Rodrigues] Just got a reply: they are now looking into removing that info.
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[tw2113] aww yiss they approved my comment 😄
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boffosocko.com edited /2020/Pop-up/Sessions () "(-2198) Moved WordPress Themes to Scheduled section; moving organizing data to the new page" (view diff)
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Loqi [New Event] boffosocko.com created "Sep 26, 2020 9:30am Making IndieWeb Friendly WordPress Themes" https://events.indieweb.org/8fs9gAVX3OkV
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[tantek] Greetings West Coasters, we need a host and a "start the zoom" person for this week's HWC West https://events.indieweb.org/2020/09/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-eKgjOW4KvBIK
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GWG [tantek]: Know anyone on East Coast time willing to come on the 9th?
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[tantek] I've been sharing it around work
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[tantek] There's some interest
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loqi.me created /GitHub_Hosting (+25) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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GWG [tantek]: I think the monthly attempt in different timezones can work to gauge interest.
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loqi.me created /GitHub_static_pages (+25) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /GitHub_Pages (+156) "clarify turn off issues, cannot turn off pulls, cannot use private repo" (view diff)
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GWG [tantek]: Can I invite you personally to the event on the 12th?
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GWG If not, I feel like I need to internalize the process
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aaronpk after our discussion about which domains can log in to the wiki this morning, that reminded me that we should probably get an organizersr popup on the calendar
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aaronpk given that we used to do those adjacent to in-person events, but that won't happen again for a while
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@ChrisAldrich The IndieWeb WordPress community could use some more theme options. Join us on Sept. 26 for an IndieWebCamp Popup Session to help make some IndieWeb Friendly WordPress Themes #WordPress #microformats https://boffosocko.com/2020/08/31/making-indieweb-friendly-wordpress-themes-an-indiewebcamp-popup-session/ (twitter.com/_/status/1300562134699393024)
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[tantek] aaronpk, did you forget that we did do this? https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Organizers
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[tantek] realizes now that the Etherpad wasn't archived lol
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[tantek] so we mostly did it 🙂
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GWG I'm in for an Organizer meeting
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GWG But I'm in for most things
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, if you want to help lock in a late october/early November date, we can put an IWC East on the calendar and that'll give us a good excuse to do an organizers check in....
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GWG Didn't I put my blackout dates in?
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tantek.com edited /2020/West/Organizers (+5071) "archive from etherpad" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] I think I've got the WordPress theme popup set... let me know if the page(s) have any inconsistencies...
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[chrisaldrich] I've also started a bit of a curriculum/outline for the day at: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/WPandMicroformats if you want to add any notes GWG.
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[tantek] ah, aaronpk, you missed IWC West Organizers, ok that makes sense then that it feels like we didn't do one to you
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aaronpk when was that?
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Loqi what
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GWG I have to pick a theme
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[chrisaldrich] What is planning?
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Loqi The IndieWebCamp community is planning numerous upcoming events, including future IndieWebCamps, regular Homebrew Website Club meetups, talks, and other proposals — if you'd like to help, please contribute to this page https://indieweb.org/Planning
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GWG I kept being called away during that
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[tantek] aaronpk, per https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Organizers 2020-06-26: 9:30-13:00
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aaronpk ah i thought that was more about IWC specifically, not covering general issues
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, you gave a +1 to Oct 17/18, but nothing else. Do you have any workable dates in November to give ourselves a bit more runway? /Planning#North_America_East_.28Online.29
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tantek.com edited /2020/West/Organizers (+1) "make the event & rsvp more visible than buried in a prose paragraph" (view diff)
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GWG If it doesn't happen the day before an IWC... might not get spillover
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[tantek] aaronpk, like all recent Organizers meetups, it covered both the IWC and general issues
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: No, you reformatted it to remove context
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: I am busy until the 17th...I have nothing after that.
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[tantek] having to deal with the reality of an imminent IWC helps focus the "general issues" on things that actually matter more than theoretical concerns
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GWG Although Thanksgiving
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GWG [tantek]: Also a point
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, are you sure you're not thinking about the WordPress theme session? That had some other details....
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Possibly
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GWG Same me though
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GWG I have no short term plans
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GWG And I have days to burn
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: there's a slight level of committment for a popup vs a camp. 🙂
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GWG Yes
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GWG I still have no plans
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GWG The next plan I have is in December, tentatively
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GWG And I have a month or so of vacation I need to use
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GWG I need to start taking it
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[tantek] We *once* (last year) did IWC the weekend before Thanksgiving (IWC Berlin2) and it was a big success, I think because it was *not in the US*
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[tantek] I would recommend avoiding a "weekend before Thanksgiving" IWC in the US
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GWG [tantek]: I enjoyed the Berlin events
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[tantek] same
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[chrisaldrich] I'm thinking maybe either November 7/8 or 14/15, both just after Daylight Saving Time changes. Veteran's day on the 11th is the only nearby holiday.
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GWG I'm free
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, aaronpk, do you have a preference?
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GWG Not sure where I'll be free, but wherever I am
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GWG needs to get a life
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[tantek] let me check my schedule, it get kinda packed those weeks
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GWG Outside of the house... although bad time for it
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[tantek] sorry, forgot the 😉
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GWG I am thinking maybe I should take a week and just clean the house and do indieweb projects
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GWG That may not be meta enough
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[tantek] that's meat
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[tantek] meta*
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GWG That's the meat of the meta
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[tb] 👋 [chrisaldrich] on IWC East
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[chrisaldrich] I see your avails [tb]. Anything you'd like to volunteer to help out with?
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[tb] Hmm I wouldn't know where to begin 😄 Is there a list somewhere of some things that could use some volunteering on?
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[chrisaldrich] There's a few ideas at https://indieweb.org/Planning#North_America_East_.28Online.29
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[tb] Ah I found the list 🙂
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[tb] Let's see..
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[tb] Certainly can start with co-hosting Zoom rooms
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[chrisaldrich] And there's also https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_Organizing
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tonyburns.net edited /Planning (+21) "/* North America East (Online) */" (view diff)