#meta 2020-11-19
2020-11-19 UTC
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@simonw Implementing IndieAuth for Datasette - inspired by a weekend spent at IndieWebCamp East Coast #indieweb https://simonwillison.net/2020/Nov/18/indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/1329223093311574017)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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Loqi [Event Updated] www.maxwelljoslyn.com updated "Nov 18, 2020 6:00pm Homebrew Website Club - The Americas" changed description https://events.indieweb.org/event/186/history/667/diff
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# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "criticism" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "criticism is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com created /2018/Nuremberg/geo (+1685) "Created page with "IndieWebCamp Nürnberg 2018 Session: Geo Data & Maps When: 2018/10/20 14:22 == Participants == * [facilitator URL and name] (session faciliator) *
{{addyourself}} or [URL..."" (view diff)# david.shanske.com created /2018/Nuremberg/notifications (+2016) "Created page with " ---- IndieWebCamp Nürnberg 2018 Session: notifications When: 2018-10-20 15:05 ---- == Participants == * All the people at the event :o == Notes == What do you want to get..."" (view diff)
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@dshanske Continuing my periodic chore of uploading all Indiewebcamp videos to http://archive.org, just uploaded all of the videos I could find from IWC Nuremberg 2018. Because…why not? (https://di5.us/t/zm) (twitter.com/_/status/1329305847726485504)
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loqi.me created /Social_Web_Foo_Camp (+26) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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# kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-186) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
# kaja.sknebel.net edited /Template:next-hwc (+0) "update next date from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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@autiomaa Good article about the future of web authentication methods, together with implementation details.
"IndieAuth is a spiritual successor to OpenID, developed and maintained by the IndieWeb community and based on OAuth 2." (twitter.com/_/status/1329464376106119175)
# www.svenknebel.de moved /Riot.im to /Element "product renamed"
# www.svenknebel.de edited /Matrix (+178) "update intro sentence, move link to indieweb chats up, update see-also link to riot" (view diff)
# loqi.me created /content_navigation (+31) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
# loqi.me created /content_organization (+31) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
# www.svenknebel.de edited /chatbot (+18) "/* Chat networks that enable bot integration */ update" (view diff)
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# Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1329223093311574017" to the "See Also" section of /2020/East https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=73562&oldid=73459
# Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1329232393794797570" to the "See Also" section of /2020/East https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=73563&oldid=73562
# Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1329232167851814912" to the "See Also" section of /2020/East https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=73564&oldid=73563
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boffosocko.com uploaded /File:IWC_2020-11-15.PNG "IndieWebCamp Day 2 Group Photo in 5x4 Zoom grid layout https://indieweb.org/File:IWC_2020-11-15.PNG"
# boffosocko.com uploaded /File:IWC_2020-11-15_demos.PNG "IndieWebCamp 2020 East Day Two Group photo at the Demos session at the end of Camp https://indieweb.org/File:IWC_2020-11-15_demos.PNG"
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[schmarty] (referring to this link from main channel? https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?ascraeus.org/0/phlog/041.txt )
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aaronpk > It then goes on to describe "posts" as the essential building block of the site, and offers a bewildering and lengthy categorisation of the types of posts - https://indieweb.org/posts
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# [schmarty] there is some merit to complaints about licensing on many platforms but i agree. giving (for example) twitter a license to republish your stuff does not diminish your own rights to distribute that stuff.
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petermolnar nothing is linked because that's a gopher post
# petermolnar the legal part is kinda true, but silo dependent
# petermolnar in terms of flickr, no, not true
# petermolnar instagram... yes.
# aaronpk https://help.instagram.com/581066165581870?ref=dp "We do not claim ownership of your content, but you grant us a license to use it"
# petermolnar right, like that's a different thing in reality
# petermolnar it's an unrestricted licence. outside of law language, it's as good as weaving your ownership away.
# petermolnar I was too focused on the opposite perspective - the controlling what can be done after licencing - to see this side; I'll keep this in mind.
# petermolnar trouble is with the word owning
# petermolnar one would assume both, as in owning == option to grant and to revoke rights/access
# petermolnar and with sending it to a silo, the revoking part is, most of the times, thrown away
# petermolnar hence "owning" from that point on, is incomplete(?)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ownership" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "ownership is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# petermolnar btw I fully agree that the entry is inconsistent; it's jumping from tech issues to legal issues, to personal problems
# petermolnar (this should have been kept in the main chat in my opinion)
# aaronpk i want to add a big banner to https://indieweb.org/generations saying that this is out of date or something
# [schmarty] i think one of my biggest issues is the (seemingly common) criticism that, somehow, to "be indieweb" you must do _all_ the things.
# petermolnar I think we should ditch the whole generations page
# petermolnar even if there isn't a replacement yet
# [schmarty] that makes sense to me. at the very least we want folks to stop using it as a reference for current or future work.
# petermolnar [schmarty]: yes, I'm noticing that as well, and it also seems pointless to explicitly tell them: https://mastodon.social/@petermolnar/105204349345552385
# [schmarty] archiving the page and cleaning up references to it might be a reasonable-sized chunk.
# petermolnar (yes, I know I need to un-twitter my language when it's feditwitter.)
# petermolnar (btw the original link to dgold's entry is gopher://ascraeus.org/0/phlog/041.txt )
# [schmarty] i am not sure it's in scope for the IndieWeb wiki but i think it would make sense to try and help folks focus on _figuring out what they want to do on the web_
# petermolnar [schmarty]++
# petermolnar yes
# petermolnar or indiewebify.me
# [schmarty] i think a lot of folks find they agree with indieweb philosophies early on and then rush to find the lowest-effort solution to get the "most IndieWeb"
# [schmarty] and if they get far enough to grok it that often means rushing into WordPress and all the plugins and getting lost in the weeds.
# petermolnar (western people and their grading systems.... “In Okinawa, a belt means you don’t need a rope to hold your pants up. Daniel-san, karate is here [taps his head]. Karate is here [taps his heart]. Karate is never here [points to his belt]. Understand?”)
# petermolnar I'd welcome a CC like "choose what you need" page
# petermolnar so we forget ranked scales?
# [schmarty] a lot of the criticisms in this piece on gopher comes from an assumption that one needs all the features (and, corollary, that one should probably build it themselves)
# petermolnar https://creativecommons.org/choose/ <- this for indieweb?
# [schmarty] probably multiple things like that, petermolnar.
# petermolnar the missing bit is "if you need/want them"
# [schmarty] the number and types of choices for even "simple"-sounding building blocks like "i want to support webmentions" actually can mean a world of different things.
# petermolnar I think indiemark needs a more serious rewamp. Check lvl 1: domain, h-card, _searchable posts_
# [schmarty] i have this image of a video game tech or skills tree
# aaronpk actually these axes are decent https://indieweb.org/IndieMark#draft_axes
# petermolnar lvl 1 is domain + hcard at max, that's already enough to log in to the wiki
# [schmarty] but so many are optional in indiemark 😂
# petermolnar even the ordering is wrong
# petermolnar why h-entry if there isn't a h-card yet?
# petermolnar post types have nothing to do with it, given autodiscovery
# [schmarty] yeah. to be honest i almost find the h-entry stuff more useful as a first step for certain cases. like "i made a post replying to someone and i want it to show up good on their site because they have webmentions"
# petermolnar h-entry need a h-card to make sense
# petermolnar either sibling or embedded
# [schmarty] other than signing into the indieweb wiki i didn't and sometimes still don't know why homepage h-card is so prominent
# petermolnar so h-card needs to come first
# [schmarty] petermolnar: yeah so for a single post i can just stuff a author h-card in there. and that's actually how my site still works!
# [schmarty] the indiewebring directory is the main place i think of that actually uses homepage h-cards
# petermolnar [schmarty]: yes, but it's still a h-card. It helps to understand the microformats2 idea itself, it needs to exist for a h-entry, it's simple, plus is makes indieauth possible, so it makes sense as a first step.
# [schmarty] maaaaybe some micropub clients? but we just wrote a replacement for that into the indieauth spec some weeks ago so i doubt we'll see much of that.
# petermolnar I'm not saying homepage h-card, i'm saying h-card
# petermolnar any h-card
# petermolnar and what vilhalmer is saying
# petermolnar but it's instantly giving you something
# [schmarty] i agree it's a more gentle introduction to microformats2 etc! and seeing that a testing tool can see it is rewarding.
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[tantek] I think /Generations is still doing more good than harm
# petermolnar not even the same level; h-card is a wordpress widget by hand, h-entry is template manipulation
# [tantek] the answer (upgrade) to /Generations is the three column layout stuff we've discussed and worked through some of the design, but it needs more dedicated work
# petermolnar [tantek]: you may want to read the scrollback
# petermolnar so to solve the problem of being ranked, let's try another ranking?
# petermolnar nearly every criticism we get is due to generations
# petermolnar read: it's bad
# petermolnar (plus we were in the middle of indiemark brainstorm, I don't want to lose that)
# [tantek] now I won't claim IndieMark is as "polished" as /Generations, but that's another thing that has a lot of thinking and work behind it, that can definitely continue using improvement
# petermolnar and, apparently, is not good
# petermolnar because people want to achieve scores instead of goals
# [schmarty] gamification can cause people to feel bad!!
# [schmarty] gamification is not an unalloyed good
# petermolnar we sort of came to the conclusion that indiemark needs to be restructured around "what do you want to achieve" by topic and not numbers/scores
# petermolnar no, [tantek]. I confused everyone on first go. My first exposure to indiemark ended in a "what the heck is this" + leaving it alone
# petermolnar like looking under a blanket to find a bloody corpse and putting the blanket back quietly
# petermolnar me.
# petermolnar it confused me.
# petermolnar better? :)
# petermolnar ^^^ this
# petermolnar these are not _levels_. That's the problem: they don't build on eachother.
# petermolnar some, yes
# petermolnar search, for example, shouldn't even be there
# petermolnar but it's nothing indieweb
# petermolnar it's a lot bigger, than us
# petermolnar no, it's just web
# petermolnar indie, yes, not indieweb as tech/building blocks
# petermolnar which brings the next problem with indiemark: it's a mix of indie, self-hosting, and indieweb building blocks
# petermolnar which I get, and understand
# petermolnar am I wording it wrong, or you don't want to understand, or you want to stick to problems?
# petermolnar there is a page called "indiemark" with a wall of text, with a mix of tech/jargon from mutiple ideas of individual website, indieweb building blocks, all "arranged" in levels, which don't actually build on each other in their current form (see h-card vs h-entry ordering requirements above), gamified to the point where it loses all interest and fun.
# petermolnar now, those who stay long enough and have the patience eventually realize to leave indiemark alone
# petermolnar or at least it seems this is the consensus
# [schmarty] it is also a bit confusing to say it is "aimed at gen 1/2" but also that it is "about UX" and "plumbing doesn't matter":
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[chrisaldrich] Part of the question for the IndieMark page is "Who is it for?" I would argue that it's meant for developers who are building from the ground up and who can build all the things for themselves. It's a reasonable structure for that, but if you're making a WordPress site as a side-hobby, it's generally useless...
# [chrisaldrich] There's also the antipattern of the "checkbox comparison measure" seen in the gridded comparisons of software from the 90's... Let me make a grid of checkmarked features that my software supports that yours doesn't != my software is necessarily better than yours.
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[KevinMarks] I think indiewebify.me is a better approach than indie mark as it narrates what each thing solves. It is still presented as a progression perhaps, but that could be edited. It also provides ways to check what you have done.
# [KevinMarks] Can we reframe the building blocks in the independent way they are, but how they coexist?
# [chrisaldrich] Perhaps we could have a grocery store analogy with various IndieWeb wares on the shelf and you can browse the aisles to see what you'd like to "cook for yourself"? But first you need only a domain name/hosting to use as your grocery cart/carriage/basket...
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+124) "note that current IndieMark is more about building features and thus audience is primarily for webdevs" (view diff)
# [KevinMarks] I like that analogy. Building blocks as ingredients and sample recipes for what you can make with them
# [chrisaldrich] Kevin Quark's example of "leaving the indieweb" last week was really just a decision to put some things back on the shelf before he left the store, but he still "left" and had a site with a domain he controlled.
# [chrisaldrich] It also doesn't presuppose that you might not come back for an ingredient or two at a later date.
# petermolnar I mean... you put a coin in the cart, you bought it, right?
# [KevinMarks] I also wonder if indiewebify.me could work as a way for users to ask their hosting providers for building blocks
# petermolnar that's an interesting thought
# petermolnar quite useful
# [KevinMarks] Thinking about how we used to use the feed validator to get users to send bugs to their blogging hosts
# petermolnar (if the cart is not the good one, make the domain the frying pan/oven/wok/etc that is most certainly needed to cook anything)