#meta 2021-12-21
2021-12-21 UTC
nertzy, [davidmead], darkkirb, IntriguedWow[d] and jeremycherfas joined the channel
# 
@pulodev Konten developer acak hari ini:
Apa itu IndieWeb - https://jurnal.dev/indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1473127819781849093)
sayanarijit[d], PK[d] and RIZY101[d] joined the channel
# 
capjamesg[d] What is Next.js?
# 
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Next.js" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Next.js is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# capjamesg[d] Next.js is a JavaScript framework developed by Vercel and a community of open-source contributors that may be used to develop a personal website.
# capjamesg[d] NextJS is Next.js
# capjamesg[d] /NextJS is Next.js
# capjamesg[d] [tantek] I have got us started ^
# capjamesg[d] Let me know if there is anything else you would like to see.
aparecidabosco32 and In_another_world joined the channel
# 
@MuireallPrase ↩️ Basic style. Source Pro fonts, barely off-white background, black text, adaptive sidenotes, 80-ish characters per line. Bringhurst and Butterick are reasonable.
GitHub pages, MIT license, RSS, no analytics. IndieWeb principles (https://indieweb.org/principles). (twitter.com/_/status/1473275755945611264)
# capjamesg[d] What is IndieWeb Utils?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWeb Utils" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "IndieWeb Utils is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# capjamesg[d] IndieWeb Utils is a library that contains a set of building blocks for creating IndieWeb applications in Python, developed by
{{capjamesg}}.# 
loqi.me created /IndieWeb_Utils (+167) "prompted by capjamesg[d] and dfn added by capjamesg[d]" (view diff)
# capjamesg[d] indieweb-utils is IndieWeb Utils
# capjamesg[d] /indieweb-utils is IndieWeb Utils
# 
@marinintim ↩️ Но не стоит доверять сохранность своих данных исключительно корпорациям, корпорации с лёгкостью закрывают сайты или закрываются сами: https://indieweb.org/site-deaths
Не так давно чатик Quill (аля слак), был куплен Твиттером и дал 4 (четыре) дня на вытащить свои переписки. (twitter.com/_/status/1473291262199582727)
# 
@AstraLuma If you're serious about a decentralized web, go look at federation technologies like ActivityPub or IndieWeb, and think about how we can enable less-technical people to use these.
Often times, tech dev isn't shiny and full of buzzwords. It's grinding through through problems. (twitter.com/_/status/1473324373071253511)
[jacky] joined the channel
# 
[tantek] capjamesg[d]++ nice work on /Next.js! Take a look at existing references on the wiki and link them / make sure their examples are also included on the page: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?search=NextJS e.g. on the /Webmention /gatsby and /Jamstack pages
# [tantek] in particular it looks like you could start a /Next.js#How_To section with at least the mention of how to setup webmentions (that tutorial that's linked from the /Webmention page)
# capjamesg[d] Thank you! I'll make a few changes tomorrow.
# capjamesg[d] I used Next.js but then switched to using Jekyll.
# capjamesg[d] Next.js was a bit too abstract and it was hard to understand the true fundamentals of HTML in action without all the JS.
# capjamesg[d] (esp. semantics)
# capjamesg[d] I'll add it to the gift calendar later today 🙂
# capjamesg[d] Ah why thank you!
Eddy04[d] joined the channel
# 
boffosocko.com edited /handwriting (+726) "added Rocketbook and Livescribes as potential platforms/solutions; removed extra see also link; moved Alton Brown and Jeff Bridges to appropriate sections; link to article and synopsis; brainstorming section to encourage experimentation" (view diff)
marksuth[d] and barryf[d] joined the channel
# 
@pbakaus ↩️ IndieWeb, @GrantForTheWeb and others are all fighting the good fight, but (imo) lack product designers and managers laser focused on consumer use cases and product market fit. Need to invest in marketing these web2 movements to folks. (twitter.com/_/status/1473411930379358208)
# [tantek] paging [KevinMarks] to provide a history lesson in response to: https://twitter.com/pbakaus/status/1473411190084698114
# @pbakaus The most uncomfortable thought I have about web3 is that we* let it happen. We could have solved transactions and payments. We could have invested in more robust decentralized social layers. Web3 tries to fill gaps we left. Probably time to course correct. *the web2 community (twitter.com/_/status/1473411190084698114)
# 
@danyork @pbakaus @GrantForTheWeb Yes, the original Web 1.0 was, and still is, massively decentralized. And many aspects of "Web 2.0" were as well. But to your point, the independent projects didn't have product designers who could create the UX that consumers wanted. The platforms DID create easy UX. (twitter.com/_/status/1473419263625019392)
# Loqi ok, I added "Why: https://twitter.com/danyork/status/1473419263625019392" to the "See Also" section of /user-experience https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78516&oldid=77965
# 
[KevinMarks] I saw that and sighed. We did, lots of it, but silos kept removing it
# 
edgeduchess[d] I wasn't there for that, but I think at least part of it is fair
# edgeduchess[d] (though full disclosure Paul and I are friends and we talked a lot about this)
# edgeduchess[d] the UX of things like mastodon is atrocious, and a huge reason that people don't buy in into the ecosystem, even when they wanted to
# edgeduchess[d] the Tumblr exodus was a prime moment to onboard more people into a decentralized web, but there was no place that would suit their needs
# edgeduchess[d] but I will always die on the hill that this is a UX/product problem
# [tantek] edgeduchess[d] I blogged about this just over 10 years ago: https://tantek.com/2011/181/b1/google-plus-pownce-friends-federation-data-export-summer-social-war
# 
[schmarty] I think the "UX problem" is much more a labor problem
# [schmarty] Plenty of stuff that works with plenty of ideas floating around about how to improve or scale. Few people with the skills and time who actually show up.
# edgeduchess[d] I don't think that he doesn't, I actually think that that's in line with what he's saying
# boffosocko.com created /DEV (+1974) "stub; definition; pagelogo, syndication, POSSE to; rel-canonical; see also" (view diff)
# edgeduchess[d] they shat the bed, they had the opportunity, but they didn't (google included) because of short-sighted interests
# edgeduchess[d] I think the problem is that the people that show up and the people that care about UX/product are not the same
# edgeduchess[d] you can get tech people excited about decentralized standards, but for other types of talent you need more
# [schmarty] I have a lot of answers _why_ the folks with free time (and money) are showing up at other projects/startups/etc
# edgeduchess[d] would love to hear those answers 🙂
# edgeduchess[d] because they're motivated by different things
# edgeduchess[d] my boyfriend is a UX/product designer, so we talked a bit about this
# edgeduchess[d] I forgot all we said, but generally designer/UX people don't have the culture of open source tech people do
# [schmarty] Lack-of-UX-work is a classic problem in nearly every open source community, for one thing. For lots of reasons!
# edgeduchess[d] yeah
# edgeduchess[d] right
# edgeduchess[d] there's movement in that area: https://opensourcedesign.net/
# [schmarty] Many open source communities or at least their maintainers focus on plumbing and downplay other kinds of contributions, from UX to docs to emotional labor and more
# edgeduchess[d] It's also harder to coordinate UX work when all you have is scraps of time
# [tantek] design << See https://opensourcedesign.net/ for ideas and [[welcoming]] folks
# Loqi ok, I added "See https://opensourcedesign.net/ for ideas and [[welcoming]] folks" to the "See Also" section of /design https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78518&oldid=75581
# [schmarty] UX work is also a kind of work that creates work. So a UX person can show up and do a great job for a project but unless they are also ready to contribute code, there's a reliance on those who will write the code to take the notes and act on them
# edgeduchess[d] like there needs to be a vision that is built, and that's harder to "silo" into manageable pieces than a tech spec is
# 
[chrisaldrich] edgeduchess[d]++ for an earlier nudge to create a page on the wiki for /DEV; it's up for others to add to now.
# edgeduchess[d] I mean, yes, fair point
# edgeduchess[d] but there's more prior existing art, I think
# edgeduchess[d] I can read up on how to set up a good tech contributors environment
# edgeduchess[d] I don't (yet) know where to start with design
# [schmarty] IndieWeb enjoys the benefits of plurality of approaches and software but it also comes with a cost
# edgeduchess[d] indeed
# [schmarty] There is no "IndieWeb project", there are dozens, built by different people at differing times. Things drift in and out of compatibility and relevance as the community iterates
# edgeduchess[d] I mean to me that's part of the problem, though I agree with the plurality of approaches philosophy
# edgeduchess[d] but there's no shared roadmap to onboard people on
# edgeduchess[d] if someone shows up and asks "where do I help?" what's the IndieWeb answer?
# [schmarty] It is a high cost sometimes!
# [schmarty] edgeduchess[d] that is a great question with many possible answers. Typically I think we would start with: what do YOU (the someone showing up wanting to help) want for your own personal website
# edgeduchess[d] [tantek]: Yeah I understand where you're coming from. There's also a related problem with technical founders in startups. If the leads don't care about good design, it doesn't get prioritized.
# [schmarty] Haha yes what tantek said about it
# edgeduchess[d] In an environment where tech voices abound, it might be hard to make designers feel welcome and important, also because of that difference in approaches.
# edgeduchess[d] I mean, what all you say make a lot of sense, but what I'm saying is slightly different
# edgeduchess[d] there's no collective roadmap to build towards, from what i've seen
# edgeduchess[d] there's no "product"
# edgeduchess[d] which is totally fine! but it's not going to end up in a vision people can easily contribute towards
# Loqi Typical use of the term roadmap does not refer to actual roads, maps, or maps of roads - instead, keep a personal priority ordered list of what you're specifically Working On, and for unsorted or vague desires, add them to an unordered Itches list, on your User page or your project's page https://indieweb.org/roadmap
# edgeduchess[d] ok, but assuming they do, what then?
# edgeduchess[d] we're talking about two different things though
# edgeduchess[d] one thing is inviting everyone to build their own solution for their needs
# edgeduchess[d] one thing is offering a solution that can be adopted by a large amount of people
# edgeduchess[d] which is UX/product work
# [KevinMarks] one path with amplification is to contribute to templates for common frameworks that add mf2 and webmention hooks etc, with tests
# edgeduchess[d] yeah, it is an assumption problem at its base, but that's kinda what Paul is saying
# [KevinMarks] and to do the social work to persuade maintainers to adopt them
# edgeduchess[d] there's a lack of people that focus on consumer use cases and product market fit
# edgeduchess[d] a.k.a. people that focus on building stuff that non-tech people can use without understanding the underlying layers
# edgeduchess[d] eheh, UX is hard, but i'm also curious to hear what the pain points are
# edgeduchess[d] yeah
# edgeduchess[d] was there ever an effort to design how that looks?
# edgeduchess[d] what happened with it?
# [schmarty] There was some interesting stuff done by Simply Secure about design for decentralized systems which was not tied to any particular software. It's interesting to read through and see what assumptions are baked in
# edgeduchess[d] ooooh, i'm going to save that, thank you
# [schmarty] That was funded work I think. Not sure by whom or who might be using it to guide their work today, but it has a lot of stuff that feels geared more towards Mastodon like stuff
# edgeduchess[d] I wonder if right now is a better time to try and get something like that off the ground
# edgeduchess[d] I've said it here before that i'm convinced there is an actual market for a better "own your website" experience
# [schmarty] There have also been consumer-focused platforms with strong IndieWeb ties. Such as micro.blog , and Known (aka WithKnown aka Idno)
# edgeduchess[d] how was the UX of those platforms?
# edgeduchess[d] yeah, makes sense
# [schmarty] Known has gone back to a community model with slower updates. I'm not aware of anyone offering to host it these days. It's kind of Tumblr-like, I guess.
# edgeduchess[d] or when you get people to pay you for it, I guess
# edgeduchess[d] oh yeah absolutely
# [schmarty] micro.blog is very active and has a lot of ways to interact thanks to being built with APIs in mind. There are apps focused on Twitter-style microblogging, on photography, on podcasting, and more
# edgeduchess[d] I mean, if you study entrepreneurship and marketing principles that's what they tell you not to do
# edgeduchess[d] that's not just a problem with this type of software
# edgeduchess[d] it's why most startups fail
# Loqi Make what you need is an IndieWeb principle that helps creators focus on creating & publishing things prioritized by what they need & want for their own personal site https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_need
# edgeduchess[d] but I think treating it like a product problem is still a better way to potentially succeed
# edgeduchess[d] if you only build what you need, projects won't die, but they also won't have an as large impact
# edgeduchess[d] you kind of have to keep hammering at the problem
# edgeduchess[d] the hard part here is traditional funding avenues are closed off
# edgeduchess[d] (gotta run, but i'll be back to this convo cause it's very relevant to my own interests)
# [schmarty] I would be interested in seeing someone try out an IndieWeb-powered small community in the vein of Darius Kazemi's https://runyourown.social/
# [schmarty] I don't think I agree!
# [schmarty] indieweb.social is a mastodon instance loosely associated with this community. IndieWeb as a community runs primarily on chat+wiki
# [schmarty] I think Darius only mentions Mastodon incidentally because that is what his own community is using to communicate.
# [schmarty] What I am trying to describe is: a small thing built and managed by a community to meet the community's needs, based on IndieWeb building blocks rather than Mastodon/ActivityPub
# [schmarty] One step up from "make what you need" to "make what we need".
# boffosocko.com uploaded /File:Devto_canonical_link.PNG "User interface screen capture of modal window that pops up when the hexagon is clicked. The Modal has a field for putting in the canonical URL of the original post as well as a potential series name once multiple posts in such a series exists. https://indieweb.org/File:Devto_canonical_link.PNG"
# boffosocko.com edited /DEV (+290) "/* IndieWeb building blocks support */ screenshot of rel-canonical functionality" (view diff)
