#meta 2021-12-22
2021-12-22 UTC
# 
@binyamingreen I'm going crazy over my #CSS.
I'm building a sort of card component. The #HTML is semantic, #IndieWeb-compatible, gluten-free, etc. I know exactly how I want to style it. But... I can't decide on BEM-compatible class-names. Help? (twitter.com/_/status/1473442499167502336)
# 
edgeduchess[d] [schmarty]: this is not exactly what I have now, but it's part of what I aim to build
# edgeduchess[d] and a lot of the philosophy is based on darius' post
# edgeduchess[d] my theory is that better community spaces that support open standards beyond activitypub are a good building block towards allowing people to run their own blogs etc. with success
# edgeduchess[d] asking around, for example, I was told the UX mastodon has implemented for RSS is pretty poor
# edgeduchess[d] but generally a lot of people online these days are looking above all for community
# edgeduchess[d] they aren't going to make their own personal spaces unless they know that someone will interact with them
# 
tantek.com edited /timeline (+630) "add 1997 indie web manifest term & basic concept, link from 2010 use of term to 1997 publication" (view diff)
# edgeduchess[d] Ah, yes, definitely there's a range. I'm talking about my own corner of the web 🙂
# edgeduchess[d] for RSS, what do you think of the modern offerings like Feedly?
# 
Loqi Feedly is a feed reader service https://indieweb.org/Feedly
# edgeduchess[d] it would be interesting to study their public and monetization strategy
# edgeduchess[d] they've been going for a while, so there's at least some signal that people might like that type of service
# edgeduchess[d] also, UX that can be lifted 😛
# edgeduchess[d] right, yeah
# edgeduchess[d] I think it's generally possible to package stuff for different crowds differently, based on similar standards
# 
[chrisaldrich] I moved to Feedly when Google Reader shut down for a long while. It's relatively easy to use and fairly pretty. I much prefer to use Inoreader (and actually have a pro/paid subscription to it) for more functionality and the ability to dovetail with my own website.
# edgeduchess[d] what's dovetail?
# [chrisaldrich] Mostly I'm using IndiePass (fka Indigenous) and other indie microsub readers
# [chrisaldrich] Dovetail meaning I can get parts of the reader's functionality to work on concert with my own reader.
# edgeduchess[d] very interesting
# edgeduchess[d] i'd be interested in learning more about that UX, but it will have to be at a different time
# [chrisaldrich] Here's two dovetailed pieces of wood if it helps the metaphor: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-991060cdfbfa63739fff78859576072f-lq
# edgeduchess[d] ah! it does
# [chrisaldrich] I wrote up some of my experience with Inoreader and my site here: https://boffosocko.com/2018/12/03/using-inoreader-as-an-indieweb-feed-reader/
# edgeduchess[d] amazing, thank you!
darkkirb, gRegor and Tonny joined the channel
# 
tracydurnell[d] I use Feedly as my RSS reader, it's fine, I don't love it but don't dislike it enough to move somewhere else
# tracydurnell[d] quite the testimonial we're giving it "I don't hate it" 😉
# edgeduchess[d] what makes you not love it?
# tracydurnell[d] it really wants you to put all your feeds into channels
# tracydurnell[d] I set up the channels when I joined feedly whenever Google Reader died, and they're not super useful now, but I don't think to change them until I go to subscribe to something new and go uhhhhh what channel uh I guess "lifestyle"
# tracydurnell[d] which is kind of a me problem 😉
# tracydurnell[d] I'm also vaguely irritated by their attempts at classifying whatever I'm reading, it has a popup at the top of I swear half the articles asking "was this article about business?" and literally none are
# tracydurnell[d] so their AI or whatever sucks lol
# tracydurnell[d] signing up for new feeds is a little irritating to me too
# tracydurnell[d] they seem to want to help with discovery
# tracydurnell[d] I just want to paste in the URL of the feed I want to follow
# tracydurnell[d] again, a me problem 😉
# tracydurnell[d] I also am irritated by having to click an article twice to actually get to the website if I don't want to read it in the reader
# tracydurnell[d] which I do because I like to open links in my browser to read later, and in the feed doesn't let you ctrl-click to open in new tab
# tracydurnell[d] you just have to go through and read the link and come back
# tracydurnell[d] (that last is on their mobile app, it works in browser)
# tracydurnell[d] that sucks
# tracydurnell[d] a lot of who I want to follow are artists and I'm bummed they're on Insta or Twitter instead of RSS
# edgeduchess[d] It's interesting because you have a bit of a chicken and egg problem, with not enough "good content" for most people's RSS readers but also not enough engagement outside of social networks
# edgeduchess[d] ironically Tumblr had RSS
# edgeduchess[d] we did talk about focusing on artists as a potential strategy last time, didn't we?
# tracydurnell[d] yeah you shared cardd (sp?)
# edgeduchess[d] yeah
# tracydurnell[d] are artists who you're focusing on for your project?
# edgeduchess[d] fandom people, which includes a lot of artists
# tracydurnell[d] oh yeah, you did say that
# edgeduchess[d] https://fanlore.org/wiki/Transformational_Fandom this group basically
# edgeduchess[d] They basically did LiveJournal => DreamWidth => Tumblr, and now are on Discord, which is just bad for their needs
# tracydurnell[d] oh yeah, I can see that being a bad path
# tracydurnell[d] livejournal and discord not the same at all
# edgeduchess[d] people half-assedly tried to get them on Mastodon, but Mastodon is also not that great
# edgeduchess[d] yeah absolutely
# edgeduchess[d] what i'm trying to do right now is build forum-like community spaces that work for multimedial content
# edgeduchess[d] with an interface more similar to Tumblr's and modern social networks
# tracydurnell[d] cool
# tracydurnell[d] seems like it'd be useful for a lot of groups
# tracydurnell[d] I wandered into a fountain pen forum the other day and they were all linking to images that are now dead links
# edgeduchess[d] as part of that though a big question is how to let people have their own blogs and still plug them into the "ecosystem" with a UX that works for people
# edgeduchess[d] that's the second part of my project, but I believe that without community spaces getting people their own blogs is hard because they're just going to end up having to "market" them on social networks anyway
# tracydurnell[d] yeah
# edgeduchess[d] Yeah, I bet, most forums out there are really old
# edgeduchess[d] for fandom communities there is Amino right now, but aside from the fact that the median age is super low their UX isn't great either
# tracydurnell[d] is the biggest challenge of uniting a bunch of sites the technical side or how to display content from a ton of sites usefully?
# edgeduchess[d] I would say the biggest challenge is getting people not to kill each other at this stage of fandom
# edgeduchess[d] there's a lot of problems with harassment in the community
# tracydurnell[d] oh no 😦
# tracydurnell[d] that sucks
# tracydurnell[d] so designing for safety?
# edgeduchess[d] yeah
# edgeduchess[d] i would say "designing for community"
# tracydurnell[d] fair point 🙂
# edgeduchess[d] I mean a big problem with modern social networks is that moderation is most often outsourced to the platform
# edgeduchess[d] it's only at the individual or platform level
# edgeduchess[d] mastodon solves this a little bit with the person administering the instance having a lot of power to ban other ones
# edgeduchess[d] but OTOH this is also the wrong model cause people don't want to join an instance just to find they can't access other ones that they personally want to be able to see
# tracydurnell[d] do you have a thought for a different model? or still thinking on that part?
# edgeduchess[d] I have various thoughts, some more abstract than others
# edgeduchess[d] I generally think who can post in a community and who a person can follow from their own "dashboard" should be separate
# edgeduchess[d] mastodon very much flattens from all i've seen the idea of individual and community
# edgeduchess[d] you exist as part of an instance, and that's your community of people
# edgeduchess[d] with Boba, I'm taking a slightly different approach which is moving everything one level up
# edgeduchess[d] so I control the instance, but the instance can have sub-communities in it
# edgeduchess[d] so each community can self-moderate at a more fine-grained level and what I allow on the platform can be broader than what I would allow in a community
# edgeduchess[d] how well that works in practice is what we'll see in 2022, cause first quarter of it is going to be finding the right people to lead more communities
# tracydurnell[d] cool, fingers crossed it works well!
# edgeduchess[d] thank you!
# tracydurnell[d] I was reminded of this artist I follow musing about this challenge earlier in the year: "What would it look like to have a combined location where our overlapping readers could talk to each other?" https://lucybellwood.com/service-agnostic-environments/
# edgeduchess[d] That makes a lot of sense, yes
# edgeduchess[d] > My general obsession recently (and I know I’m not alone in this) has been more about getting audience members to connect with one another rather than singularly with me.
# edgeduchess[d] that's part of why I'm not working on decentralized blogging, though I'm chomping at the bit to do stuff in that space
# edgeduchess[d] I keep coming back to the fact that I think for a lot of people the joy of the web is the connection between people
# tracydurnell[d] totally
# edgeduchess[d] so like a Tumblr without reblogging and whispertags (we talked about them) would have been a much different space
# edgeduchess[d] thank you! I love transformational fandom, it's where I grew up online
# edgeduchess[d] I have to say, I grew up in the internet of the 00s, so it was a different time
# edgeduchess[d] but my Peak "the Internet is Great" time was 2010-1015 tumblr
# edgeduchess[d] around 2015 is when harassment and internal wars in fandom spaces started getting out of control
# tracydurnell[d] what do you think pushed it out of control? changes in culture, scale?
# tracydurnell[d] haha true
# edgeduchess[d] change in culture, mostly
# edgeduchess[d] the new generation thinks we're all heathens
# tracydurnell[d] oh no 😦
# edgeduchess[d] I kinda wrote a whole open letter on this when i started boba, let me pick it back up
# edgeduchess[d] https://v1.bobaboard.com/open-letter
# edgeduchess[d] it's really interesting, and you can see how the new shape of the web tends more towards affirmational
# edgeduchess[d] right, exactly
# edgeduchess[d] I think TBH that getting a "good web" back is very much at least partly about realizing we were always the minority, and that most people like affirmational
# edgeduchess[d] but the transformational niche can still thrive in its spaces, if we can build them
# edgeduchess[d] thank you!
# edgeduchess[d] I think the good part of the fights between transformational people is that they didn't use to be connected to your own identity, so you could step out more easily
# edgeduchess[d] but from what I hear from people that have been doing this longer than me, people have always been vicious
# edgeduchess[d] happy to chat about this whenever, i'm glad to have a space to talk about a better web
# edgeduchess[d] oh good to know, i'll move it to that channel next time
# edgeduchess[d] from what I heard people were trying to doxx each other even on LiveJournal, it just was harder
# edgeduchess[d] but there were *less* vicious people
# edgeduchess[d] that's true
# edgeduchess[d] especially when retweets/reblogs so heavily amplify "dunking" on people
# 
[tantek] precisely. I really like Derek's deep dive into this: http://powazek.com/posts/3368
# edgeduchess[d] > Nothing creates a fight faster than in-group language overheard by the out-group.
# edgeduchess[d] this is so true
# edgeduchess[d] how would you design something that avoids that?
# edgeduchess[d] i guess we can move directly to #indieweb if you want since we're going in another discussion (though I might soon have to be back tomorrow)
[aciccarello] joined the channel
# edgeduchess[d] let's do it 🙂
# 
@tchambers These look helpful: “Announcing indieweb-utils” https://jamesg.blog/2021/12/20/announcing-indieweb-utils/ (twitter.com/_/status/1473529554857873409)
# tracydurnell[d] @tantek for the "who" page, mocked up a hex-based 2021 US organizers map and wanted to see if it was what you were thinking of or too abstract - if this is the right direction I can do something similar for Europe
# tracydurnell[d] couldn't find a picture for Maxwell, think I got everyone else though based on event listings
# tracydurnell[d] would be nice to get a better picture for GWG 😉 and would need to get thumbs up to use pic from Jacky because I pulled it from his site vs indieweb profile
alex11 joined the channel
# 
@voxpelli ↩️ Also: @indiewebcamp which is just plain old semantic HTML progressively enhanced to facilitate social interactions (even real-time such, as I support in https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ which is long overdue to get some love from me) (twitter.com/_/status/1473597842505797633)
# @voxpelli ↩️ Also: Metcalfe’s law and the network effect it describes makes any creation of a new network very challenging and will likely only be successfully achieved if it can be built by leveraging the existing web rather than discarding what we already have and starting from scratch. (twitter.com/_/status/1473600028233056256)
# @voxpelli ↩️ Join us at @indiewebcamp / http://indieweb.com to dogfood, document and push the state of the web forward through iterative and exploratory steps.
Totally agree that we can augment the web to where we want it to be without needing to build something completely new. (twitter.com/_/status/1473599643103735808)
# 
petermolnar.net edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+370) "added another article found in support of indieweb" (view diff)
# 
@kkd Web3…中央集権から分散の流れ..また新たな中央集権を生むのか？ IndieWebをブロックチェーンベースで実現するとか（てきとう）… https://jp.techcrunch.com/2021/12/22/jack-dorsey-and-elon-musk-are-talking-about-web-3/ (twitter.com/_/status/1473622573682417676)
# 
@acute_aura ↩️ it's kinda funny that even people like jack doresey and him see how web3 is fundamentally broken as a concept
i mean it's the decentralized/indieweb stuff we already have, with blockchain tacked on, and then assumes there will be commercial adoption. (twitter.com/_/status/1473639160653258757)
Brin[d] joined the channel
# petermolnar.net edited /why (+4102) "cleaned, formatted, and moved links from "See Also" to "Articles and Related Links"" (view diff)
# 
petermolnar what is identity loss?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "identity loss" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "identity loss is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# petermolnar identity loss means losing one's accounts for any reason (this page is a work in progress)
# petermolnar identity loss is losing one's accounts for any reason (this page is a work in progress)
# 
loqi.me created /identity_loss (+115) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
# petermolnar.net edited /identity_loss (+6744) "converted first section into cite blocks" (view diff)
# petermolnar !tell [tantek] I made /identity_loss , copied the block over from /why and converted them to cite templates. Should I redirect the block in /why ?
# 
@kevinmarks ↩️ I stick with #indieweb as a term, as that can be decentralized or semantic too. A breaking semver number is less attractive (twitter.com/_/status/1473701514497646602)
gRegor joined the channel
# tracydurnell[d] thanks Tantek!
# tracydurnell[d] I'll work on a Europe map next 🙂
# [tantek] petermolnar++ excellent, thanks for starting /identity_loss, will take a look
# [tantek] petermolnar, re: what to leave in place in /why#Identity_loss, I'd say a
{{main|identity loss}} link and then curate the top 3 links and summarize in place there# 
capjamesg[d] indieWEborg++
# petermolnar indieweBORG - resistance if futile
# petermolnar *is, of course I make a typo
# @kevinmarks ↩️ Indeed, and we've been building on those ideas with more openness and less silo dependence at #indieweb https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/1204769210259386369?s=20 (twitter.com/_/status/1473760064523673606)
# petermolnar.net edited /why () "(-3985) link to main identity loss article, list of example stories" (view diff)
# tantek.com edited /identity_loss (+231) "dfn, on the web, reason why, what instead, see also" (view diff)
RISHI_RAJ[d] and kimberlyhirsh[d] joined the channel
# petermolnar [tantek]: i disagree with that dfn; domains can be lost, taken away, etc as well.
# petermolnar putting that get a domain in there feels like bad marketing pitch to be honest.
# petermolnar There is no need for it to be there at all.
# Loqi identity loss on the web is when someone loses their account(s), domains, and/or usernames for any reason, and one of the reasons why it’s better to focus on an IndieWeb presence first, and treat social media only as an ephemeral distribution mechanism https://indieweb.org/identity_loss
# petermolnar the whole "and one of the reasons..." is unneeded there.