#meta 2024-01-23

2024-01-23 UTC
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Loqi [Event Updated] paulrobertlloyd.com updated "Mar 9 - 10, 2024 IndieWebCamp Brighton 2024" changed cover_image "Add cover image" https://events.indieweb.org/event/572/history/1566/diff
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[tantek] My understanding is that newer variants are symptomatic much quicker, reducing the window greatly for asymptomatic transmission. I need to look up some articles on that though
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GWG My colleagues came back from the home office and picked up illness m.
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GWG So, it is going around again in multiple places
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[tantek] I also think there's a real risk of expecting an overwhelming level of "duty tax" on volunteer organizers, so much so that it discourages some number of organizers or at least raises the burden/barrier to being an organizer that it makes organizing itself non-inclusive
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aaronpk ^^ tbh this is why i haven't stepped up to organize IWS
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[tantek] So to be clear, I am highly skeptical of someone demanding (blogging) things of volunteer organizer who is not themselves actively organizing such events
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[tantek] There's a bit of potential bleed over of entitlement culture from a lot of default OSS culture/projects that we should be sensitive to
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[tantek] aaronpk no problem at all and to be clear it's also ok to say something like I won't help organize some event unless I have N other co-organizers who step up to handle X, Y, Z
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aaronpk well I also have very limited bandwidth for it at the moment, and no obvious venue options anymore, so kind of starting from scratch here
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[tantek] Yeah, I like the idea of looking for a Seattle venue instead
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[tantek] We should define the minimum required responsibilities for an organizer of an in-person indieweb event. And have everything else be "highly recommended" or a "nice to have"
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Loqi I agree
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[tantek] Something like required to uphold and be an exemplar of the code of conduct, and maybe something about respect & care for any venue (to both avoid "burning" a venue, and frankly to uphold the be respectful intent of the CoC towards the venue)
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[tantek] Also I would be down for having a frank and direct (and minuted) conversation about this with others who have co-organized in-person event(s) since Covid started, because I do think it's different than before
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GWG [tantek]: I'd be interested in such a discussion
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david.shanske.com edited /2024/Brighton (+60) "/* Todo */" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /Wordle (+381) "prompted by btrem and dfn added by btrem" (view diff)
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btrem.com edited /Wordle (+137) "Adds info on New York Times purchase of game." (view diff)
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[tantek] GWG, I think first steps would be to 1) make a list of in-person indieweb events that have been held since March 2020; 2) collect the list of co-organizers of such events (yes including you GWG, you helped co-organize both in-person at SD and remotely for Nuremberg)
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[tantek] gRegor, to be clear, strongly supportive of setting up a /health-and-safety-examples page of examples of real world events and what they are doing
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[tantek] separately, would be ok with /health-and-safety-brainstorming as a separate page of ideas/requests from folks who are not themselves event organizers or have never organized an event with the rules/guidelines/procedures they are proposing/requesting.
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gRegor > "I am highly skeptical of someone demanding (blogging) things of volunteer organizer" I don't believe this is a fair take on the public health pledge or Josh's post. There are real world examples of events that have implemented various levels of stronger precautions.
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btrem.com edited /Wordle (+25) "Adds /* IndieWeb Examples */ section." (view diff)
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gRegor Also, yes, there is more of a "duty tax" to organize a safe in-person event in 2024, rightly so imo
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btrem.com edited /Wordle (+33) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Adds btrem.com example." (view diff)
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btrem.com edited /review (+188) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Adds btrem.com example." (view diff)
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gRegor Honestly, I was not yet in a good space to take on that duty for IWC SD which is why I did not sign up to co-organize. With the trend of the fall's transmission numbers, I didn't think it was a great idea and wasn't sure how much I was going to attend. A small thing that did encourage me to actually go was when Peter mentioned in the etherpad intros that he was still being covid cautious and masking.
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[tantek] :thumbsup_all:
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www.ciccarello.me edited /about.me (+32) "add link to site in definition" (view diff)
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www.ciccarello.me edited /about.me (-12) "actually link to the site [facepalm]" (view diff)
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[tantek] gRegor, always good to follow your self-assessment like that, I think that's a part of the spirit of "life happens"
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[tantek] there was a spirit of support at IWC SD, no criticism of anyone for wearing a mask, in any context, whether outdoors or not
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[KevinMarks] the organisations that have most successfully implemented covid protocols have been film sets, we should look up what they do
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamp_Organizing (+574) "/* COVID precautions */ Health and safety, section stub, summarize goals/should, provide example statement re: symptoms, note prior IWCs with guidelines, more directed calls to action on resources" (view diff)
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] how have you heard "successfully"? We know films have been made, we don't know how many got sick in the making films, and I would consider the latter a necessary aspect of "successfully implemented"
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[tantek] gRegor, updated from Covid to Health and safety: https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_Organizing#Health_and_safety
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamp_Organizing (+24) "/* Health and safety */ link SD & NUR rules sections" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2023-tollwerk-corona-regeln.jpeg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:2023-tollwerk-corona-regeln.jpeg"
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tantek.com edited /2023/Nuremberg (+25) "/* Covid Rules */ photo of Tollwerk covid rules that in-person participants saw / agreed to by participating onsite at Tollwerk" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2023/Nuremberg (-9) "resort emojicon, TOC, widen covid rules photo" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2024/Brighton (+78) "replace emojicons with page logo of hero image from event" (view diff)
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ohhelloana.blog edited /2024/Brighton (+59) "/* Todo */ adding myself as a volunteer to help organising" (view diff)
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capjamesg[d] Maybe I should try and plan an Edinburgh camp...
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capjamesg[d] It would probably have to be August.
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capjamesg[d] And I'd need a co-organizer who can help!
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Always looking for excuses to visit Edinburgh 🙂
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capjamesg[d] Maybe we can do something!
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Be good to keep the momentum
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capjamesg[d] I'm happy to help with venue coordination, ticketing, promotion, equipment setup, etc.
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capjamesg[d] But I really need someone else because I haven't organized a larger meetup in person before!
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capjamesg[d] There are a few potential options for venues.
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capjamesg[d] CodeBase, a big part of the Scottish startup ecosystem, has event space.
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capjamesg[d] Then there are dedicated places with conference room-esque offerings like the Edinburgh Training and Conference Venue.
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capjamesg[d] Actually, August is probably the worst time. That's when the Fringe is on. Hotels will be so expensive.
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capjamesg[d] Perhaps early September? It's usually a lot quieter as soon as the Fringe ends.
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Ha yeah, August would be mental. Haven’t been to the fringe for a few years, but I think its a bit like SXSW, gotten so big its not as enjoyable. But I bet everyone says that, no matter when they started going 😂
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capjamesg[d] Another option is the Edinburgh Futures Institute, part of the University of Edinburgh. I think they might be sympathetic to offering space for free, since the IndieWeb aligns closely with their goal of advancing innovation, etc.
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capjamesg[d] In any case, I can codify all this in a wiki page.
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capjamesg[d] [tantek] I'll need your help on how to wikify this.
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capjamesg[d] What page do I need to create?
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capjamesg[d] Or where do I add this info?
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GWG capjamesg[d]: I'd love to visit EDI... although don't you all have some sort of big festival in the summer?
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GWG Jumped the gun there.. should have read the whole scroll back
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] capjamesg[d] I think the place to start is https://indieweb.org/Planning
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[KevinMarks] During the Fringe would be a bit much (there used to be an Edinburgh HWC, and my son went along when he was performing at the fringe, but he felt like an interloper because of Fringe dislike)
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[KevinMarks] The Fringe is great IMO, but yes it did make things a bit pricy - he did another show in 2022 so I went to it wiht him and wow, what a lot of shows to see
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capjamesg[d] I don’t think the Fringe is a good time.
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capjamesg[d] I suggested September.
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capjamesg[d] Ironically as someone in the city most days I can never remember when the Fringe is 🙈
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foreverliketh.is edited /User:Foreverliketh.is (-6) (view diff)
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Loqi Countdown set by [tantek] on 2024-01-09 at 2:47am UTC
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Loqi the WebSub Recommendation is 6 years old! https://www.w3.org/TR/2018/REC-websub-20180123/
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[tantek] capjamesg create an "Edinburgh" subsection inside /Planning#2024 and dump all the info you write above about possible dates and possible venues
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capjamesg[d] ++
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aaronpk moving the irc notification script and wiki backup script over to the new server now
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aaronpk no visible changes expected
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] FWIW, noticed that in vector 2022, the live search doesn’t work, 404s on https://indieweb.org/wiki/rest.php/v1/search/title?q=test&limit=10
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aaronpk 😮
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aaronpk looks like web server issue not routing that to rest.php
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sknebel yep, that was among the issues found and documented when we tried it a while back
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aaronpk what a weird path
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Works on vector 2010, so guess its calling a different endpoint?
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Ah
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sknebel presumably some of the other notes under https://indieweb.org/MediaWiki_customizations#Wiki_is_unusable_on_mobile also need updating then, or can be removed?
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki_customizations (-59) "/* Is there a GitHub repo for issues */" (view diff)
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Those issues can be updated when the site defaults to Vector 2022, I think we’re close to being able to do that.
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] the hero image for IWC Brighton is getting cropped weird when it shows up as a link preview in Mastodon, see top post in https://mozilla.social/@tantek.com@tantek.com
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] I’m having second thoughts about that image, bit too straight-laced in retrospect, and right now working on something a little more ‘indie’ 😄
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[KevinMarks] previously https://flickr.com/search/?text=indiewebcamp%20brighton&view_all=1
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] is that a photo making a point to go for better diversity in this year's IWC Brighton?
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[KevinMarks] I remember some Brighton years being more diverse than others - 2015 did well iirc. Could we ask Jeremy what worked better in which years?
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[tantek] I think Jeremy got in touch with local coding groups and that helped.
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tantek.com created /2015/UK (+27) "r" (view diff)
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] can you check with Jeremy about which local coding groups he got in touch with for 2015? Seems like that was one of the more (the most?) well attended and diverse IndieWebCamps in Brighton, and it would be good to know what worked there and try doing more of that
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Already have done 😄
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] We’re going to be speaking with the folks at Codebar, too.
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll]++ thank you 🙏
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Loqi [Paul_Robert_Ll] has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (20 in all channels)
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capjamesg[d] I fundamentally disagree with this goal "IndieMark is an in-progress set of metrics for measuring the indieweb-ness of a site"
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capjamesg[d] That is basically an invitation for people to compare their sites with others', disregarding the extent to which something matters to them.
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[campegg] Agreed, capjamesg—it creates the impression that "being IndieWeb" is some kind of competition
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[tantek] yes, I agree with both of those criticisms. that dfn is a bit out of date unfortunately. will attempt a fix to reflect more modern (what we've discussed in the past few years of IndieWebCamps) understanding
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[tantek] thanks for clearly stating the problems
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capjamesg[d] Yeah. Looking through this page again, I don't want to do a lot of this on my site.
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[tantek] IndieMark << to-do: update definition to reflect a more updated understanding (and intent) of collection of emergent patterns of feature adoption/implementation among the IndieWeb community, and roughly ordered incremental steps for implementation that make each step more implementable by a developer during an IndieWebCamp or possibly in a matter of hours or less
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Loqi ok, I added "to-do: update definition to reflect a more updated understanding (and intent) of collection of emergent patterns of feature adoption/implementation among the IndieWeb community, and roughly ordered incremental steps for implementation that make each step more implementable by a developer during an IndieWebCamp or possibly in a matter of hours or less" to the "See Also" section of /IndieMark https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92570&oldid=92568
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], half empty vs half full perspective. rather than looking at the bits you don't want to do, why not focus on the bits you do want to do?
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[tantek] IndieMark << to-do: write an explicit warning for completionists as that's not the intent of this page
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Loqi ok, I added "to-do: write an explicit warning for completionists as that's not the intent of this page" to the "See Also" section of /IndieMark https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92571&oldid=92570
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capjamesg[d] rather than looking at the bits you don't want to do, why not focus on the bits you do want to do? - if one person has this impression, others are going to have it too 😄
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[tantek] IndieMark << to-do: write an explicit guide for developers to seek out the features described in IndieMark that they want to do, instead of worrying about the features that they don't want on their personal site
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Loqi ok, I added "to-do: write an explicit guide for developers to seek out the features described in IndieMark that they want to do, instead of worrying about the features that they don't want on their personal site" to the "See Also" section of /IndieMark https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92572&oldid=92571
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capjamesg[d] If you have a ranking of any kind, people are going to see it as a list of things to do.
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], yes, it is the optimist vs pessimist perspective. and yes there are others who are both optimists and pessimists
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], some people will see it as a list of things to do, others as a set of things to choose from
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[tantek] don't make the mistake of assuming your perspective is the common perspective.
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[tantek] always assume there will be a variety of perspectives and reactions, and rather than extrapolating from your own experience, gather a diversity of perspectives to reason from
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capjamesg[d] That's fair. With that said, we already have criticism / people put off about the perceived amount of technical knowledge required to participate in the IndieWeb community.
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capjamesg[d] This reads like a developer guide.
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[tantek] It *is* a developer guide
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[tantek] It's for builders
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sknebel its a bit of a mix
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[tantek] IndieMark << to-do: clarify that this page is for developers & builders
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Loqi ok, I added "to-do: clarify that this page is for developers & builders" to the "See Also" section of /IndieMark https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92573&oldid=92572
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sknebel (and ideally none of it would need "you" to be a developer, because you could pick something to host your site with that lets you turn on nearly all of it)
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capjamesg[d] Exactly.
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capjamesg[d] We should be clear that "hey, X, Y, Z services have a lot of these things already!"
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capjamesg[d] I think this would work well as a guide for people _building_ web tools like micro.blog as a way to evaluate their connectivity to the social web.
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[tantek] well when we have more than X,Y services, we can worry about that
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capjamesg[d] 😄
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[tantek] right now there are only two, http://micro.blog and omg.lol. when that expands to 4, let's re-assess
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Loqi I agree
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capjamesg[d] And yet we only mention micro.blog twice and don't mention omg.lol 😛
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[tantek] it's fairly new that it's been established that omg.lol can be used seamlessly with your own domain
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[tantek] and we don't have a lot of examples either so it's harder to recommend without reservation
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[tantek] capjamesg[d] do you know anyone personally using omg.lol to host their personal site/domain?
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[tantek] do you know enough about omg.lol to recommend using it to a person new to the IndieWeb?
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capjamesg[d] I would recommend it to people because it looks easy to use and fun from my research!
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capjamesg[d] I have visited a lot of omg.lol sites, but don't know people who use it personally.
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[tantek] "looks easy to use" is a risky approach IMO
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capjamesg[d] I think I actually have an account.
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[tantek] Tumblr, WordPress, and many others "looked easy to use" and turns out they were either very hard to make IndieWeb friendly, or IndieWeb dead-ends
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[tantek] we've been burned too much by such eagerness to recommend things that "look easy to use" but folks had not personally confirmed
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[tantek] we should capture that somewhere
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Loqi I agree
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[tantek] go try a service yourself, and document your experience, before recommending it to others
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capjamesg[d] They have an interactive demo on their homepage!
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capjamesg[d] https://home.omg.lol/
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[tantek] That certainly helps. Do we link to that from our page /omg.lol ?
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[KevinMarks] I signed up and tried it, I'll see if I can use a subdomain of mine, or one of my weird ones
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[tantek] subdomain seems to "obviously" work and not really help anything tbh
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[tantek] if you can document your experience setting up an actual domain you own instead top level, that would be helpful
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (-424) "complete to-do: rewrite definition to a more modern (like past 5+ years at least) understanding and intent, clearly state up front that it is in-progress and for developers" (view diff)
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[tantek] in the interest of hopefully some progress sooner than later short of "perfection" or even "addressing most of the issues" ...
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[tantek] what is IndieMark?
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Loqi ✅ IndieMark is an in-progress developer guide of clusters of related IndieWeb features, gathered from emergent feature implementation trends in the community, ordered within clusters towards a step-by-step approach to incrementally building IndieWeb features for your site https://indieweb.org/IndieMark
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[tantek] ^ capjamesg[d], [campegg], sknebel does that help?
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[tantek] trying to at least limit the misunderstandings while fixing / cleaning up the rest of the page
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capjamesg[d] I like it!
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[campegg] > IndieMark is an in-progress developer guide that organizes IndieWeb features into related clusters. These clusters are based on observed implementation trends within the IndieWeb community and are ordered to provide developers with a step-by-step approach to incrementally integrating IndieWeb features into their sites.
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[campegg] I like it too, but had to read it a couple of times to really get the gist. Maybe a slight rewrite along these lines?
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[tantek] yes that's better
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+86) "simplify definition, separate details into a second sentence and rewrite for better readability and some additional precision. thanks to campegg++" (view diff)
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[tantek] hey I thought that ++ would work
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[tantek] campegg++ for the help with splitting up the concepts / sentences
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Loqi campegg has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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[tantek] what is IndieMark
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Loqi ✅ IndieMark is an in-progress developer guide that organizes IndieWeb features into related clusters based on implementation trends within the community https://indieweb.org/IndieMark
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Loqi [Event Updated] paulrobertlloyd.com updated "Mar 9 - 10, 2024 IndieWebCamp Brighton 2024" changed cover_image "Update cover image" https://events.indieweb.org/event/572/history/1567/diff
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[tantek] ^ I split it slightly differently that you did [campegg] but used a lot of the phrasing/wording changes you made. take a look
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[tantek] looool
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[campegg] [tantek] yep, that reads really well!
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[tantek] ok that is a hilarious and fun and even a bit self-deprecating new cover image [Paul_Robert_Ll]++
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Loqi [Paul_Robert_Ll] has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (21 in all channels)
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paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:brighton-2024-logo.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:brighton-2024-logo.png"
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aaronpk cute
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[tantek] and now I want vegan softserve. I blame you [Paul_Robert_Ll]. unfortunately the best vegan softserve place in Brighton stopped serving it 😞 I have to find a new one
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2024/Brighton (-45) "Add 2024 logo" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2024/Brighton (-31) "dates are pretty locked down, no longer being "planned"" (view diff)
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paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:brighton-2024-cover-laptop-light.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:brighton-2024-cover-laptop-light.png"
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tantek.com edited /2024/Brighton (+97) "add event page" (view diff)
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paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:brighton-2024-cover-laptop-dark.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:brighton-2024-cover-laptop-dark.png"
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tantek.com edited /2024/Brighton (-2) "-crs" (view diff)
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paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:brighton-2024-cover-graffiti-wall.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:brighton-2024-cover-graffiti-wall.png"
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[tantek] actually LOLed at that last one
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[tantek] uh [Paul_Robert_Ll] I'm not sure we should be using TimBL's face without his permission
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2024/Brighton (+275) "Add selection of promotional images" (view diff)
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[tantek] Tim does know about IndieWeb and I have a feeling I would get blamed personally if this image got promoted
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Okay, will remove… that was my original image, and I ummed and urred on it.
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[tantek] I mean the graffiti is great
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paulrobertlloyd.com deleted /File:brighton-2024-cover-graffiti-wall.png "Non-cleared image usage"
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] It was take on these images of famous people, that are all around Brighton: https://www.visitbrighton.com/things-to-do/attractions/street-art?asset=3613-ig-18231968488191624
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] (Not the one in the preview 🙄)
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] now if you painted that image of TimBL as street art and then took a photo, now we're talking 😂
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Ha! It’s a shame I haven’t seen one of him already, I think he’d need to release some music first 😄
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[tantek] capjamesg, you were asking about IndieWeb or was it web-dev? related events in the first half of the year in the UK, check out: https://mastodon.org.uk/@barcamplondon/111703275629414869
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paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:brighton-2024-cover-graffiti.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:brighton-2024-cover-graffiti.png"
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Loqi [preview] [BarCamp London] We're having discussions with the venue. Hoping to establish a firm agreement within a couple of weeks.Now we need some challengesBarcamp London Hack 202415 & 16 June 2024, Stratford, East London https://bclhack.wordpress.com/challenges/#goadsg #bcl...
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capjamesg[d] I’m trying to bring back HWC Edinburgh.
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capjamesg[d] We shall see what happens!
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capjamesg[d] If there is anyone to whom I should reach out, let me know
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[tantek] [acegiak] maybe?
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capjamesg[d] Also thanks re: the BarCamp link!
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capjamesg[d] I’m trying something I don’t usually do: planning things months in advance!
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capjamesg[d] Do you have a wiki page on how you prioritize things [tantek]?
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capjamesg[d] I vaguely recall you having something along those lines.
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[tantek] no I'm misremembering re: Edinburgh, sorry I should have checked the wiki first
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[tantek] oooh how to prioritize things. maybe for writing?
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], re: bringing back HWC Edinburgh, check the names (and people in the photo) in https://indieweb.org/2015/Edinburgh
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[tantek] do you know any of these folks? https://indieweb.org/2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List
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capjamesg[d] Will take a look!
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capjamesg[d] [tantek] I mean in general.
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capjamesg[d] To chat I venture!
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2024/Brighton (+722) "First draft of event introduction" (view diff)
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[KevinMarks] OK http://kevinmarks.org now hosted at omg.lol - I followed the directions here https://home.omg.lol/info/switchboard and the only step that took any time was the 15mins for my dns to propagate because that was the old timeout
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[KevinMarks] https://kevinmarks.weblog.lol/2024/01/routing-kevinmarks-org-to-omg-lol-step-1-make-an-a-record-in-dns-at-hover-com-for
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[KevinMarks] cf https://www.kevinmarks.com/omglol.html
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[KevinMarks] oh, it does subdomains easily too https://blog.kevinmarks.org/
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[tantek] wow! [KevinMarks]++
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Loqi [KevinMarks] has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (30 in all channels)
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[tantek] and demonstrating rel=me support!
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[KevinMarks] that's built in by default
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[tantek] omglol << IndieWeb Example: http://kevinmarks.org is hosted at omg.lol. See blog post for the steps it took: https://kevinmarks.weblog.lol/2024/01/routing-kevinmarks-org-to-omg-lol-step-1-make-an-a-record-in-dns-at-hover-com-for
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Loqi ok, I added "IndieWeb Example: http://kevinmarks.org is hosted at omg.lol. See blog post for the steps it took: https://kevinmarks.weblog.lol/2024/01/routing-kevinmarks-org-to-omg-lol-step-1-make-an-a-record-in-dns-at-hover-com-for" to the "See Also" section of /omg.lol https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92593&oldid=92044
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www.kevinmarks.com edited /omg.lol (-2) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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[KevinMarks] pretty impressed with omg.lol - the fediverse integration is a mastodon server that you log into separately though
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[tantek] can you provide a http://kevinmarks.org permalink for that blog post?
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[tantek] that would help demonstrate it's more than just for setting up brochure sites (on your own domain)
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[KevinMarks] I pointed the blog subdomain at it
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[tantek] so what would that make the permalink then?
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[tantek] and can you provide a FYND way from http://kevinmarks.org to the blog there?
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[KevinMarks] done
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tantek.com edited /omg.lol (+42) "move SAs to IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)