#meta 2024-01-22

2024-01-22 UTC
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[tantek] Per Gresham's law of trolls (https://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html) there seems to be an equivalent law of developers vs users
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[tantek] To rephrase Graham's words: Developers are willing to use a forum with a lot of users in it, but users (and those with no desire to chat or even be bothered reading about technical details, jargon, acronyms) aren't willing to use a forum with a lot of developers in it. Which means that once technical details, jargon, acronyms take hold, it tends to become the dominant culture by discouraging users from showing up, or discussing user-centric
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[tantek] topics, or even staying in said forum.
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[tantek] This re: #indieweb vs #indieweb-dev today.
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[snarfed] ^ I like it, story checks out
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[tantek] I keep thinking of too many meta things like that to post about, faster than I can actually write up short posts about them
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[snarfed] calls back to your "capture now, publish later" post
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com/tinbox (+151) "finish addition" (view diff)
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[snarfed] having ideas faster than you can write them up isn't so bad. lots of ideas, prioritize and write up the best ones at the rate you can, you still end up sharing lots of good stuff
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[tantek] indeed. at least captured.
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[tantek] makes me think I should keep an open queue of such captures on my personal site that don't show up "on main" as it were
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[tantek] so those that are curious can go dig there but nothing there gets broadcast
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[tantek] ok that's on topic for main
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tantek.com edited /Webmention (+20) "please don't use class names that are just inline styles, more maintenance elsewhere = less community sustainable. also either no one bothered to define .floatright or it was lost in a recent MediaWiki update, proving my point" (view diff)
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[tantek] ^ when the edit summary is longer than the edit
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[tantek] also cc: [Paul_Robert_Ll]
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aaronpk oh funny, i wonder what version of the skin that was in
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[tantek] does it matter? the meta point stands. don't use class names for customizations of mediawiki styles. they will break eventually
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[tantek] what is mediawiki customization
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Loqi MediaWiki customizations are changes to the default install of MediaWiki that the IndieWeb community has made for various reasons to better serve how the community uses the wiki https://indieweb.org/mediawiki-customization
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aaronpk yeah sounds reasonable
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[tantek] MediaWiki customization << Don't use class names for customizations of MediaWiki styling or skin customizations, they will break eventually. Don't use class names that are just inline styles (e.g. https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Webmention&diff=92520&oldid=92491 fixed one), more maintenance elsewhere = less community sustainable. also either no one bothered to define .floatright or it was lost in a recent MediaWiki update, proving
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[tantek] my point.
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Loqi ok, I added "Don't use class names for customizations of MediaWiki styling or skin customizations, they will break eventually. Don't use class names that are just inline styles (e.g. https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Webmention&diff=92520&oldid=92491 fixed one), more maintenance elsewhere = less community sustainable. also either no one bothered to define .floatright or it was lost in a recent MediaWiki update, proving" to the "See Also" section of /MediaWiki_customizations https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92521&oldid=92480
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki_customizations (+9) "finish sentence" (view diff)
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[tantek] going to rewrite /lists to be more IndieWeb-centric
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[tantek] what are lists
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Loqi list is a feature on some silos such as Twitter for collecting a set of people you want to follow for a specific reason such as a topic or area of expertise https://indieweb.org/lists
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[tantek] wow only one edit/dfn (me/Loqi) more than 5 years ago. ok that's worth deleting and recreating a new page since that dfn had zero effective relevance to the IndieWeb as a separate page at least
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tantek.com deleted /list "content was only a stub unedited since created by tantek+Loqi chat dfn: "{{stub}} '''<dfn>list</dfn>''' is a feature on some silos such as Twitter for collecting a set of people you want to follow for a specific reason such as a topic or area of expertise.", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Loqi.me|Loqi.me]]" ([[User talk:Loqi.me|talk]])"
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tantek.com created /list (+1526) "recreate based on IndieWeb-centric uses / wants / needs, IndieWeb Examples snarfed, Brainstorming, see also" (view diff)
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[tantek] what is a list
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Loqi A list is a feature on personal sites, often a page (not a post), for collections of things that may not need separate posts, and distinct from a listicle https://indieweb.org/list
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[tantek] better. defining by actual IndieWeb usage (and desires) rather than a silo feature
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tantek.com edited /Ghost (+62) "expand dfn with more functionality summary / use-cases, move implementation detail to second sentence" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Ghost (+35) "change logo to ghost-logo on GH instead of Twitter" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /eating_his_own_cooking (+31) "r for easier inline prose usage" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /eating_her_own_cooking (+31) "r for easier inline prose usage" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Ghost (+36) "start Articles section with Citation Needed post about migration from Substack to Ghost, reword old "dogfooding" criticisms to eating your own cooking variants, move logo to top, move Cats to just before See Also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /migration (+1084) "add Citation Needed post about migrating from Substack to Ghost as an example, quotation about why self-host" (view diff)
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] I believe `floatright` and `floatleft` (and possibly others) are from a previous MediaWiki version, but can be enabled with a setting: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgUseLegacyMediaStyles
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] I’ve added them to my vector-2022 custom overrides (which fix a few other bugs in Vector, and tweak the design/font size)
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] https://indieweb.org/User:Paulrobertlloyd.com/vector-2022.css
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Also, can template snippets provide their own styles? I ask as the current snippet used to show a user profile, really ought to have a media query; adding that to inline styles isn’t possible.
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] (Its currently set to float right, but on narrower screens, it creates a narrow river of text down its left side; using a media query to make it full width at a certain breakpoint would fix this)
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foreverliketh.is edited /User:Foreverliketh.is (+442) (view diff)
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foreverliketh.is edited /User:Foreverliketh.is (+0) (view diff)
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foreverliketh.is edited /User:Foreverliketh.is (+47) (view diff)
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foreverliketh.is edited /User:Foreverliketh.is (+19) (view diff)
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foreverliketh.is edited /User:Foreverliketh.is (-19) (view diff)
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foreverliketh.is edited /User:Foreverliketh.is (-3) (view diff)
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[tantek] media query for different widths makes sense, especially for floats
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] I’m not sure how best you can achieve this in MediaWiki; maybe styles for custom templates live in global custom.css? Perhaps something for me to look into.
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[tantek] I vaguely recall using a <style> element inline on a page before, since you can put mediaqueries in those
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[tantek] otherwise yeah, global custom css
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2024/Brighton (+340) "Planning update on venue accessibility" (view diff)
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2024/Brighton (+72) "Add date of planned ticket availability" (view diff)
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] (☝ May need some help next week getting access to and setting up Tito)
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capjamesg[d] Wait, March 9-10th? I should be able to make it!
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[tantek] I really want to go to IWC Brighton 2024. My bday is the day after (11th). That said, since there is limited capacity, I think it makes sense to wait to let anyone local-ish to get first dibs on tickets/spots.
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[tantek] (I'd include anyone who can get there within a day's train ride as local-ish 🙂 )
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[tantek] (I realize that means a lot of Europe)
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GWG I really want to go too, but my nephew is getting married on the 12th in Lakewood NJ. So I may have to remote
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GWG I was hoping to punch my Indieweb bingo card.
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] One question we had this evening was around remote participation; is there usually limited remote participant spaces at IndieWebCamps? I can see how that’d be useful, but also depends on your definition of ‘remote participation’.
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barnaby assuming that a full remote participation experience requires a video feed, usually the limiting factor is having limited (usually only one?) camera for streaming, so the remote participants have to decide where they want it, someone has to carry it there and position it well, etc
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barnaby *cameras
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sknebel I dont think we ever had a problem with "too many remote participants" if that's what you mean
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] remote participation works well when there is an on-sight organizer familiar with the technnical details of making remote participation work well. In the past this has been various folks such as aaronpk, GWG, or sometimes someone semi-familiar (like me) working in coordination with a remote expert (GWG), and often a HWC organizer who has run several online events (e.g. [calumryan])
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[tantek] on-site* not on-sight
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[tantek] adactio also has some familiarity, and I believe I left him with good high quality external HD USB camera + mic that works MUCH better than the one built-into laptops, so if you can convince him to bring his equipment / help with remote participation setup, that would likely work
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[tantek] we usually do remote participation for main sessions (intro, demos) and at least two rooms of breakout sessions. beyond that requires more equipment and expertise though has been done (e.g. at IWS pretty sure we had remote participation in all breakout sessions)_
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Good point about making sure we have dedicated equipment. I think we’ll have a few seasoned pros in attendance, so hopefully that means we can keep to a high standard for remote participation. My main worry was around having too many remote people, but I guess that’s a good problem to have (and I might be getting a bit to far ahead of myself 😂)
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GWG I can help out remotely on that.
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GWG In terms of advice and support
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[tantek] GWG, that would be great, especially since you're only 5hrs apart in timezone
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capjamesg[d] I can't guarantee I'd be able to go in person as I have a work trip in Spain that week, but we'll see!
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[tantek] GWG, can you add yourself as a remote co-organizer helping with remote participation?
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GWG capjamesg[d]: I'd be missing you again and others...darn
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GWG Will do
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capjamesg[d] It might work out because I fly back to Manchester, which is closer to Brighton than Edinburgh.
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] That’d be lovely, thanks GWG
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GWG capjamesg[d]: It is? I thought Brighton was closer to London
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Easy to get to Spain on Eurostar/TGV (I’ve done it!)
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capjamesg[d] I mean travelling from Edinburgh to Brighton takes longer than from Manchester 😄
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capjamesg[d] I'd really like to go!
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[tantek] capjamesg, if you're flying back to Manchester, see if you can talk Ian Forrester into taking the train to Brighton with you! He's co-organized many a BarCamp Manchester in the past
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[tantek] [Ian_Forrester] ooh let's see if he sees this Slack mention
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capjamesg[d] I don't think I know him! What's his domain name?
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capjamesg[d] Oooh!
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[tantek] e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2011/09/barcamp-whats-a-barcamp.shtml
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[tantek] his domain is https://cubicgarden.com/
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[tantek] and I just emailed him directly giving him a heads-up about IWC Brighton
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tantek.com edited /Template:IndieWebCamp (+31) "add Brighton since date & location are confirmed" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2024/Brighton (+2) "put myself after organizers who are more likely to be there in-person" (view diff)
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Loqi [New Event] jamesg.blog created "Jan 24, 2024 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" https://events.indieweb.org/JsNKFpjtn6yT
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Loqi [Event Updated] jamesg.blog updated "Jan 31, 2024 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" changed start_date, description https://events.indieweb.org/event/567/history/1559/diff
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] can we publicly post about tickets opening up for IWC Brighton on the 1st? Start generating some hype? 🙂
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Loqi [New Event] jamesg.blog created "Feb 7, 2024 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" https://events.indieweb.org/5hk1pyUBj5gc
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Loqi [New Event] jamesg.blog created "Feb 14, 2024 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" https://events.indieweb.org/pR7bmltWiZ4j
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Loqi [New Event] jamesg.blog created "Feb 21, 2024 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" https://events.indieweb.org/hFrKVoneAzZs
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aaronpk I can send shirts and name badges either directly there or to someone in the US who will be going
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Loqi [New Event] jamesg.blog created "Feb 28, 2024 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" https://events.indieweb.org/aWOhRaPRevto
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Loqi [Event Updated] jamesg.blog updated "Jan 31, 2024 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" changed meeting_url https://events.indieweb.org/event/567/history/1564/diff
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capjamesg[d] Happy to share on my blog too!
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[tantek] aaronpk if I'm going I can bring shirts in an extra suitcase
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[tantek] capjamesg great! yes, mostly I'm looking for permission / go-ahead from [Paul_Robert_Ll]
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aaronpk speaking of which, i need to mail out the shirts from IWC SD now that things have thawed out
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aaronpk we were stuck under a layer of ice for the past week here
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Need to confirm venue and set up Tito, mainly, could release tickets earlier, but want those 2 things in place first, I think.
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[tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] to be clear, not asking to release tickets earlier, more about if we can publicly announce that registration opens on February 1st.
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Oh sorry, misread your message [tantek]; hype hype hype!
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[tantek] and what time on the 1st lol
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[tantek] in case there is a mad rush for tickets 😂
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Ooh! Ha! Hmmm, what’s a goof time, maybe 6pm GMT?
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[tantek] or do former participants get an early registration code?
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[tantek] yes whatever time you think would be easiest for the locals
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[tantek] maybe noon to give a little bias for locals / Europeans being more awake than North America folks?
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capjamesg[d] or do former participants get an early registration code? - I'm not sure that is fair.
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Need to think about registration codes, really want to have a mix of old and new faces. Also planning on reserving 5 tickets for minority groups and mentioning the event in the local Codebar Slack groups.
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[tantek] yes a mix would be good
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Going to be tough to get this right
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[tantek] capjamesg I doubt more than 10 former participants would ask for a registration code so I don't see a problem
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[tantek] or [Paul_Robert_Ll] could always cap that code at 10 uses
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[tantek] that would help achieve the goal of having a mix
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[tantek] also get a critical mass of registrants going
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] Yeah, perhaps 10 former, 5 reserved, 15 generally available, at least to start with, and can adjust as needed
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[tantek] that's a really good split IMO
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[tantek] another code to consider is for Brighton locals to really reinforce the sense of local community
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[Paul_Robert_Ll] I guess ultimately, if we have to turn people away, we can organise another camp 🙂
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[tantek] maybe 5 for that from the generally available pool?
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[tantek] precisely if you sell out the capacity that will be amazing
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[tantek] I would advise a minor fee like $5 to go towards food & drink & venue rental expenses, just to limit the number of no-show registrations (which we know happens with BarCamps for example, only a third or so typically show up when there are free registrations)
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[tantek] er, £5 🙂
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[tantek] with of course the caveat that you can explicitly select an option for "economic hardship" for no cost
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[tantek] that's usually sufficient to discourage drive-by registrations that have low intent
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[tantek] aaronpk, do you remember the wording we used on IWS for the economic hardship option or how we set that up in Tito?
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aaronpk not off the top of my head but it should still be in there
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[tantek] let's make sure [Paul_Robert_Ll] has access to the IndieWeb tito
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aaronparecki.com edited /list (+179) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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[KevinMarks] Aslo ping Hadley Beeman as a former Attendee with good connections to the other barcamps (eg govcamp)
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] perhaps you could go ahead and do so!
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+904) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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gRegor I'd encourage setting a health and safety policy for the event, more in https://publichealthpledge.com/ and https://blog.josh.tel/2023/10/19/an-event-organizers-duty-of-care-from-codes-of-conduct-to-health-and-safety-policies/ Latter links to policies from other events too.
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Loqi [New Event] paulrobertlloyd.com created "Mar 9 - 10, 2024 IndieWebCamp Brighton 2024" https://events.indieweb.org/xRTP2hAZOvZd
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[tantek] gRegor, worth starting an organizers page about that on the wiki if we don't already have one
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[tantek] ah we have this: https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_Organizing#COVID_precautions cc: [Paul_Robert_Ll]
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[tantek] and yeah, I'd be up for renaming that to health and safety precautions
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[tantek] especially since this winter has seen the triple surge of Covid, flu, RSV
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gRegor Yeah I was thinking of setting up a /health-and-safety-examples page
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gRegor Kind of related, I've been working on setting up a personal guidelines version of it, draft in this post: https://gregorlove.com/2023/12/our-health-and-safety/
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[tantek] I have been hearing anecdotes (looking for studies) that Covid event testing policies have contributed to the spread of colds, flu, RSV etc due to people having a false sense of safety/health from a negative Covid test
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[tantek] A lot of events I’m participating in are taking the different approach of rather than testing or requiring masks, a strong discouragement of any symptomatic participation
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gRegor I could see that if the policy is only "test before you come" which is why masking is an important additional layer, imo.
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gRegor Yikes
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gRegor -1 when such a large percentage of transmission is asymptomatic.
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