#meta 2024-03-24

2024-03-24 UTC
to2ds, [tantek] and claudinec_away joined the channel
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www.ciccarello.me edited /Linktree (+120) "organize criticism" (view diff)
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www.ciccarello.me edited /Linktree (+343) "add to brainstorming discussion" (view diff)
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www.ciccarello.me edited /Linktree (+8) "right align screenshot" (view diff)
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www.ciccarello.me edited /Linktree (+835) "/* Leaning into web3 hype */ move citation from [[link in bio]]" (view diff)
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www.ciccarello.me edited /link_in_bio () "(-791) Moved linkfire to silo examples. Can consider adding it's own page if too large." (view diff)
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www.ciccarello.me edited /principles (+418) "/* Posts About */ add "The IndieWeb is for Developers" criticism" (view diff)
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[tantek] aciccarello, that post goes beyond the principles. would be better to add it to the /criticism page
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[tantek] we already have work in-progress to transition the principles from dev-centric to user-centric
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[aciccarello] Sure, I'll add that to the criticism page
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[aciccarello] Where is the principles transition tracked? I was also looking to contribute to that discussion.
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www.ciccarello.me edited /challenges (+387) "/* Incoming criticism */ Add "The IndieWeb is for Developers"" (view diff)
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[tantek] let me see if I can dig it up
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to2ds The IndieWeb is for Developers made a lot of sense, but whenever I was in the company of more advanced technologists, they always brought me up. Thinking the IndieWeb movement is the same.
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[aciccarello] I think some of the principles are written in developer centric language but don't have to be.
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to2ds Very true.
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[aciccarello] For example, modularity is something that certainly is a consideration for developers, but can also be something non-developers consider when picking a tool to use.
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[aciccarello] Some of the pushback on webmentions and microformats does make me think those are too closely associated with the minimum to "be part of the indieweb".
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[aciccarello] I see those are useful tools if you want certain kinds of functionality, but not a requirement for anyone.
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to2ds As someone with a tech background, webmentions have given me fits and starts at the onset.
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[aciccarello] Partly due to the modularity, they are on one hand trivial, but also not trivial to understand what's involved in a feature like comments
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to2ds The baseline should be "own domain" then "content." All the bells and whistles can follow in due time.
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www.ciccarello.me edited /Webmention (+131) "/* How to implement or display */ bold the different categories of implementation" (view diff)
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[aciccarello] That see also section could be cleaned up
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to2ds Is there a best practice for the "see also?"
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[tantek] some in /wikify
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[tantek] I wouldn't worry too much about "hot take" blog posts btw
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[tantek] it's good to collect them for eventual processing and improving things based on valid criticisms, however, there is no need to feel a sense of urgency to "respond" or "react" to them
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[tantek] urgently reactive responding is not sustainable, continuous incremental thoughtful improvement, with patient community discussions, is
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to2ds I think my current level of IndieWeb too new to make those distinctions as of yet.
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to2ds Though from what I've read so far, most, if not all, are very subjective.
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[tantek] the principles help with that. e.g. figuring out what (else) you want to do with your personal site, then pursuing ways to make that happen.
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[contact898] to me webmentions were part of the IndieWeb because I'm a simple person and the indieweb WordPress plugin included webmentions
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[contact898] also it's pretty heavily advertised as a group / network so it feels like making the websites communicate is essential
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[contact898] otherwise it's the personal web, not the Indieweb community
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[tantek] right that's a good distinction
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to2ds Yes. Webmentions for all! :D
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[tantek] yep, right there from the home page "community of independent and personal websites connected"
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[contact898] I don't think webmentions are necessarily the only (or even best) way to communicate but they're the ones being used here and therefore they're kind of mandatory here
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to2ds I suspect the microformats aspect of Webmentions becomes the Achilles Heel so to speak.
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[tantek] [contact898] depends on what you mean by "best".
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[tantek] to2ds relative to what? without any structure, there is no communication.
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to2ds From a personal standpoint, the microformats are what threw me off at first. Once I understood the context of u-in-reply-to, u-like-of, et cetera, all the puzzle pieces fell into place.
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to2ds A template would have been helpful. I found aaronpk's post very helpful at the onset.
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to2ds I suspect those just starting with webmentions could benefit from a pluggable template.
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[tantek] depends if they use a template, or what approach they take
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[tantek] or if they are even developers at all
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[tantek] to2ds, the skills of HTML have been lost and obscured with "modern" JS/framework approaches. the larger challenge is to provide a variety of onramps for web devs of different backgrounds
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to2ds Very true.
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[tantek] because if you are not a developer, ideally you should not have to worry about microformats or webmentions at all, you should be able to use pluggable interoperable services to setup your site with the features you want
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to2ds Definitely!
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to2ds Would be kind of cool if there was reference template spec for the various types of webmentions that could be generated.
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[tantek] each one has its own page
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[tantek] what are responses
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Loqi responses, or interactions, in the context of the indieweb, refer to all the different ways and things people explicitly do to and with others’s posts, from written replies to quick likes, in other words responses = replies + reactions https://indieweb.org/responses,
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[tantek] they are in various states of documentation
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to2ds My new favorite bookmark :)
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to2ds Guessing my main question is how could those "responses" be universally commoditized, something like a webmention code/HTML generator?
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[tantek] wikify << ^ another article/site on this topic: [https://justsimply.dev/ If someone’s having to read your docs, it’s not “simple”] <blockquote>Scan your technical writing for words such as easy, painless, straightforward, trivial, simple and just. Chances are your writing will be clearer as a result of removing them.</blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "^ another article/site on this topic: [https://justsimply.dev/ If someone’s having to read your docs, it’s not “simple”] <blockquote>Scan your technical writing for words such as easy, painless, straightforward, trivial, simple and just. Chances are your writing will be clearer as a result of removing them.</blockquote>" to the "See Also" section of /wikifying https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=94333&oldid=94309
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to2ds The problem is not limited to IndieWeb, we're both baffled by our complex digital HVAC control and end up shivering several hours per night 😄
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tantek.com edited /microblog (-157) "wrong microblogUndo revision [[Special:Diff/94336|94336]] by [[Special:Contributions/Loqi.me|Loqi.me]] ([[User talk:Loqi.me|talk]])" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /micro-blog (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Micro.blog (-10) "-http" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-popups (-167) "update from https://events.indieweb.org/tag/popup" (view diff)
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[tantek] to2ds, you noted concerns about "the microformats aspect", it sounds like you have had some experiences or struggles that would be useful to discuss further in that regard. if you're interested, that could be worth exploring in the #microformats channel
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tantek.com edited /why (+111) "/* Avoiding problems */ cluster losing ownership problems and give them a common subheading" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /losing_ownership (+33) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /FOLO (+151) "prompted by [tantek] and dfn added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /FOLO (+3) "subset" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Category:jargon (+7) "DDoS" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /auto-emoji (+328) "prompted by [tantek] and dfn added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /auto-emoji (+330) "[tantek] added "IndieWeb Example: {{capjamesg}} has supported auto-emoji via emoji shortcodes [https://jamesg.blog/2021/10/25/reacjis/ since at least 2021-10-25], using his code https://github.com/capjamesg/cinnamon/blob/main/static/js/editor.js#L319 and reference shortcode dictionary https://gist.github.com/rxaviers/7360908" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /auto-emoji (+43) "linky, finish addition" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /auto-emoji (+461) "new sections, indieweb examples, software examples, service examples, brainstorming, origins, misconceptions, custom emoji in Mastodon and Slack" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /auto-emoji (+575) "converting text in a post vs suggesting text while typing" (view diff)