#meta 2024-05-15
2024-05-15 UTC
[Joe_Crawford], IWSlackGateway, [Joel_Auterson], [jeremycherfas], [qubyte], [Al_Abut], [tantek], [Paul_Robert_Ll], [KevinMarks], [Jo], [snarfed], [campegg] and laker joined the channel
barnaby and gRegorLove_ joined the channel
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /User:Paulrobertlloyd.com/principles (-97) "Reduce key principles to 3, reconfigure development principles" (view diff)
[tantek], [byJP], Guest6, [KevinMarks] and jacky joined the channel
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Loqi aaronpk: [tantek] left you a message 2 days, 7 hours ago: Meetable feature request: if there's no hero or banner photo of an event, can it show the first uploaded photo as the link preview image? E.g. on https://events.indieweb.org/lPSJYTuqCdL2
# Loqi ok, I added "https://aaronparecki.com/2024/05/12/3/fedcm-for-indieauth" to a brand new "See Also" section of /FedCM https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95224&oldid=95223
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aaronpk reasonable feature request, captured here: https://github.com/aaronpk/Meetable/issues/178
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# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /developer-principles (+404) "Update idea for consolidated developer principles" (view diff)
# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /principles (+905) "Brainstorming a reduced set of core principles, that sit above developer principles" (view diff)
# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /User:Paulrobertlloyd.com/principles (-483) "Update based on latest edits shared elsewhere" (view diff)
# kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2024/Düsseldorf (+379) "Add post about IndieWeb principles" (view diff)
# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /principles (+447) "Add post about splitting up and reorganising principles" (view diff)
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[tantek] I think there's some key missing pieces from the "3 core" principles though, relating very much to our prose at the top of the home page, which, we can use as a form of "regression testing" any change in the principles. That is, if revised principles do not support / logically follow through to the statements on the home page, then the revised principles have regressed and lost something
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capjamesg (i.e. /longevity)
# vanderven.se martijn edited /emoji (+914) "/* History */ Apply citation template to links, add one more link: emoji from 1959!" (view diff)
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# vanderven.se martijn edited /page (+501) "/* See Also */ add link for /hello pages, lets wait with dedicated page" (view diff)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IWC Organizing" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "IWC Organizing is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi IndieWebCamp Organizing is a great way to bring together your local IndieWeb community https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_Organizing
# [tantek] IWC Organizing is /IndieWebCamp_Organizing
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loqi.me created /IWC_Organizing (+36) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
# kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
# [tantek] I'm going to go do some deep cuts to the IWC organizing document, especially cutting anything that was added by either a non-organizer or not-current organizer (will move to a "Requests" section), and anything only done (or just proposed) by a single organizer (i.e. not replicated by multiple organizers for multiple IndieWebCamps) is going to get moved to a "Brainstorming" section, until it has been replicated by more than organizer for
# [tantek] `1. if you're not an organizer, you have no perspective on what is *required* or even *recommended* for implementing a successful IndieWebCamp. You can make requests of what you'd like to see organizers consider, if they have time after they attend to required things, but you're in no position as a non-organizer to be making demands / claims as to what it takes to make an IndieWebCamp work, unless you are willing to do and frankly
# [tantek] 2. if you are an organizer and something has worked for you but no one else, then maybe you have a good idea for organizing, or maybe you have a good personal best practice. Regardless, you have no idea whether someone else trying to do something that only have done will actually be able to do it, or if it is actually necessary for that other organizer to successfully run an IndieWebCamp. It's good to document what has worked for you
# [tantek] 3. the more steps to organize, the more points of potential failure overall. Every step added to a list means a longer list which means it's easier for someone to *miss* at least one or more items from the list. every item you add to a list of steps puts the other steps at risk. if the gains from the item being added are not sufficiently high to outweigh the fragility and marginal risks added, then that item should not be added to the list
# [tantek] 4. the more steps, the more intimidating / hard it looks to organize, the more labor it takes, the more that discriminates against more people organizing an IndieWebCamp. to be blunt, long lists of steps are anti-inclusive of folks that don't have the same time/resources to put in to organize.
# [tantek] IWC Organizing << to-do: reduce & simplify what is required to organizing an IWC. Clearly document Minimum Viable IWC Organizing, as it what it takes, empirically, to organize a successful IWC, not what anyone thinks is "required" due to any assumptions of first principles or entitlements or expectations. Go through the top implied "required" parts of the document and critically assess whether or not each step is actually necessary, or was
# Loqi ok, I added "to-do: reduce & simplify what is required to organizing an IWC. Clearly document Minimum Viable IWC Organizing, as it what it takes, empirically, to organize a successful IWC, not what anyone thinks is "required" due to any assumptions of first principles or entitlements or expectations. Go through the top implied "required" parts of the document and critically assess whether or not each step is actually necessary, or was" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_Organizing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95256&oldid=94704
# [tantek] IWC Organizing << add a "Methodology and principles" section that describes the all volunteer nature of IWC Organizing, and thus expecting & designing for limited volunteer labor, and what makes for a successful IndieWebCamp (or failures), note explicitly that in the past some volunteer organizers have burnt out, walked away from organizing, or even had repeated failures due to having difficulty finding co-organizers for essential roles
# Loqi ok, I added "add a "Methodology and principles" section that describes the all volunteer nature of IWC Organizing, and thus expecting & designing for limited volunteer labor, and what makes for a successful IndieWebCamp (or failures), note explicitly that in the past some volunteer organizers have burnt out, walked away from organizing, or even had repeated failures due to having difficulty finding co-organizers for essential roles" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_Organizing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95257&oldid=95256
# [tantek] IWC Organizing << add to methodology, principles for adding to or editing steps to organize, starting with: 1. if you're not an organizer, you have no perspective on what is *required* or even *recommended* for implementing a successful IndieWebCamp. You can make requests of what you'd like to see organizers consider, if they have time after they do required things. Non-organizers are not in any position to be making demands / claims as to
# Loqi ok, I added "add to methodology, principles for adding to or editing steps to organize, starting with: 1. if you're not an organizer, you have no perspective on what is *required* or even *recommended* for implementing a successful IndieWebCamp. You can make requests of what you'd like to see organizers consider, if they have time after they do required things. Non-organizers are not in any position to be making demands / claims as to" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_Organizing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95258&oldid=95257
# [tantek] IWC Organizing << ^ 2. if you are an organizer and something has worked for you but no one else, then maybe you have a good idea for organizing, or maybe you have a good personal best practice. Regardless, you don't know whether another organizer will actually be able to do it, or if it is even necessary for that other organizer to successfully run an IndieWebCamp. Good to document what has worked for you personally, by name, in the
# Loqi ok, I added "^ 2. if you are an organizer and something has worked for you but no one else, then maybe you have a good idea for organizing, or maybe you have a good personal best practice. Regardless, you don't know whether another organizer will actually be able to do it, or if it is even necessary for that other organizer to successfully run an IndieWebCamp. Good to document what has worked for you personally, by name, in the" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_Organizing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95260&oldid=95259
# [tantek] IWC Organizing << ^ 3. the more steps to organize, the more points of potential failure overall. Every step added to a list means a longer list which means it's easier for someone to *miss* one or more items from the list. Every item added to a list of steps puts the other steps at risk. If gains from a new item are not high enough to outweigh the additional fragility and other risks, then that item should not be added to the list
# Loqi ok, I added "^ 3. the more steps to organize, the more points of potential failure overall. Every step added to a list means a longer list which means it's easier for someone to *miss* one or more items from the list. Every item added to a list of steps puts the other steps at risk. If gains from a new item are not high enough to outweigh the additional fragility and other risks, then that item should not be added to the list" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_Organizing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95262&oldid=95261
# [tantek] IWC Organizing << ^ 4. the more steps, the more intimidating / hard it looks to organize, the more labor it takes, The more that discriminates against more people organizing an IndieWebCamp. To be blunt, long lists of steps are anti-inclusive of folks that don't have the same time/resources to put in to organize. The harder it is to find & encourage new IWC Organizers, and have past IWC Organizers be inspired to volunteer their time again.
# Loqi ok, I added "^ 4. the more steps, the more intimidating / hard it looks to organize, the more labor it takes, The more that discriminates against more people organizing an IndieWebCamp. To be blunt, long lists of steps are anti-inclusive of folks that don't have the same time/resources to put in to organize. The harder it is to find & encourage new IWC Organizers, and have past IWC Organizers be inspired to volunteer their time again." to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_Organizing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95263&oldid=95262
# [tantek] Separately, as we are completing our third full year of IndieWebCamps (2022-2024 inclusive) since before the pandemic, we should consider reconsidering and reviewing current / recent / past IWC Organizers and asking folks who haven't actively organized in IndieWebCamp in 2022+ if they are still interested in doing so in the future, if so, which city or cities, and how soon into the future. If it's not at least some time in the next 1.5
# Loqi "Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" call ended https://events.indieweb.org/2024/05/homebrew-website-club-europe-london-HJs8USwnq2Ie
# Loqi 🧰 IndieWebCamp kit is a small minimum set of supplies that help to run an IndieWebCamp such as large sticky notes and Hello My Name Is name badges https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_kit
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IWC kit" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "IWC kit is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [tantek] IWC kit is /IndieWebCamp_kit
# Loqi ok, I added "to-do: document actual minimum set of supplies from actual experience" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_kit https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95266&oldid=95264
# Loqi ok, I added "to-do: write a "how to prepare a minimal kit" subsection of "how to" describing how to acquire, assemble, and pack up ^ said minimal set" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_kit https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95267&oldid=95266
# Loqi ok, I added "to-do: write a "how to prepare a recommended kit" subsection of "how to" describing how to acquire, assemble, and pack up recommended kit materials in addition to the minimal kit ^" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_kit https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95268&oldid=95267
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# [capjamesg] !archive https://events.indieweb.org/2024/05/homebrew-website-club-europe-london-HJs8USwnq2Ie events/2024-05-15-hwc-europe
# cali-iwc Created https://indieweb.org/events/2024-05-15-hwc-europe. Please review the page to ensure the document is correctly formatted and remove any unnecessary text.
# cali.moe created /events/2024-05-15-hwc-europe (+4248) "Created event page using IndieWeb events / Etherpad archiver" (view diff)
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# [Joe_Crawford] Yes, particularly on the day-of! Move the Notes field up and maybe even have a kind of "active" button. Is that what you were thinking James?
# [Joe_Crawford] During the meeting, there's a Zoom button that is displayed and my recollection is it is slightly more prominent. At any rate it's big and clearly clicky. Very nice affordance.
# [Joe_Crawford] We've had a number of people expect the convention of a Zoom chat. And we point them to etherpad.
# [tantek] why not point them to http://chat.indieweb.org?
# [Joe_Crawford] I think the realtime wiki is nicer for this purpose. chat is okay but most live events become unfollowable if you're also speaking
# [Joe_Crawford] refocusing: James' comment was "We regularly see participants struggle to find the Etherpad." which I second. That's the experience I think that could use improvement.
# [tantek] aaronpk, both make sense, with different time-windows. what I'm saying is, it makes sense for an event to have TWO fields, for the different use-cases, and then it ALSO makes sense to hide one when notes are no longer being taken (event ends), and show the other (minutes / archive) when it is non-empty, which may happen some time after the event!
# [Joe_Crawford] There's no harm in brainstorming but the thing James is talking about is very finite 🙂 It's "People have trouble finding and seeing the etherpad link"
# [Joe_Crawford] That's a terrific question. I don't see an instance. 😐 It is typically ever 2 weeks.
# [Joe_Crawford] typically it's been gregor taking the helm
# [Joe_Crawford] Last one was may 8. I have a busy month let me see if I can commit to being there
# [Joe_Crawford] So 2 week interval will be 22 May. I can commit to that. I will add.
# Loqi [New Event] artlung.com created "May 22, 2024 6:00pm Homebrew Website Club - Pacific" https://events.indieweb.org/i68Swhvi4o4T
# [Joe_Crawford] okay, created HWC Pacific 2 weeks from the last one. Thanks for the prod GWG++
# [Joe_Crawford] very glad to have you looking at improving the etherpad link experience aaronpk++
# Loqi [Event Updated] artlung.com updated "May 23, 2024 12:00pm Front End Study Hall #003" changed description "added an rsvp note" https://events.indieweb.org/event/607/history/1709/diff