#meta 2024-05-17

2024-05-17 UTC
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[Al_Abut] Chipping in from someone married to a primary clinician - [gRegorLove] is right, serial testing is the easy answer to making the tests reliable. No need to cast any shade on their reliability, just take two tests and that’ll rule out the false negatives.
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[Al_Abut] The reason tests are so important are that although “don’t come if you’re symptomatic” sounds reasonable, it’s one of those things that feels true rather than actually effective. Because anyone infected is massively contagious for days before they show symptoms, that’s the real threat vector.
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gRegor High percentage of infections are still asymptomatic https://www.instagram.com/p/C58hBW9LC3j/?img_index=7, which cites https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(24)00038-3/fulltext
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[Al_Abut] Plus if we want to be candid, none of that matters if I don’t see people masking up at an indoor event. I’ll just naturally assume they also didn’t when traveling there and that means no matter how isolated they were before traveling, they’re a health risk to me even if I mask up.
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[Al_Abut] I’m thankful that SD was an outdoor event and that I could “dial in” to watch the Düsseldorf one, and the HWC zooms really go a long way to getting in fun social time, I’m just glad Gregor piped up and wanted to chip in with some science on why there’s still a silent minority of us that are not back into the usual swing of things.
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[tantek] I think different communities are going to find different levels of community (dis)comfort, because there are many factors that are quite local dependent
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[tantek] And there are pure math/probability factors too, like number of people at an event greatly changes the probabilities
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[tantek] Documenting what we as IndieWebCamp organizers actually do, and the results, can help provide concrete data for future organizers
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gRegor (dis)comfort with what?
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] if you figure out the logistics of how to recommend or require IWC participants to "just take two tests", presumably before they actually show up to the venue, then we can document that as a Request for individual IWC organizers to consider
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[tantek] gRegor, referring to Al's comment referring to discomfort with the "usual swing of things"
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[tantek] Communities had different "usuals" before and will now also
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gRegor Oof
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[tantek] Local communities that is
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gRegor The status quo has been ableism and that largely continues
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[tantek] Do you mean in general or at IndieWebCamps? If the latter, do you know of any specific reports / feedback or are you extrapolating the possibility thereof?
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[tantek] Anyway, I think it's good to document the full range of requests & brainstorms for continuing to iterate and improve IndieWebCamp organizing, and especially share what has worked and what hasn't so folks considering organizing an IWC can decide what they have the capacity to volunteer to do or not
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aaronparecki.com edited /FedCM (+1180) (view diff)
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gRegor Have you read my recent post? It's pretty new so no problem if not. I didn't address ableism directly in it, though. https://gregorlove.com/2024/05/more-on-health-and-safety/
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[tantek] I'd also like to minimize the ableism of free labor demands from volunteer organizers, which is part of the reason for documenting minimum viable IWC organizing etc
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[tantek] Yup saw the post. Plenty of good suggestions for improvements there, some of which are not a lot of work which is good
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gRegor I mean in general, and IWC has not appeared much better.
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gRegor I do not think it is ableism to want certain standards for people who are gathering people indoors. If it's outside the capacity of the organizers, I question why they're organizing.
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[tantek] It's ableism to make demands of volunteer organizers beyond what is minimum viable yes
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[tantek] There are far fewer organizers than there are participants
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gRegor ...
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gRegor Whose definition of "minimum viable"?
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[tantek] Evidence based from experience of what has worked for indieeebcamps and what hasn't. We've documented a lot that way
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gRegor Some words doing a lot of heavy lifting there
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[tantek] For example we know having a single organizer does not meet "minimum viable"
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[tantek] Because of multiple failures or shortcomings
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[tantek] Ultimately gatherings are going to depend on the people that want to make them happen and step up (volunteer) to do so, from HWC to IWC
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[tantek] Since a HWC can be as Marty used to put it in the audio edition summaries, a couple of friends gathering at a cafe, all the way to 20+ person IndieWebCamps, there's a broad spectrum there
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aaronpk should i file an opt out request for us? https://awscommunity.social/@Quinnypig/112452921509401306
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Loqi [preview] [Corey Quinn] I'm sorry Slack, you're doing fucking WHAT with user DMs, messages, files, etc? I'm positive I'm not reading this correctly. https://cdn.masto.host/awscommunitysocial/media_attachments/files/112/452/921/335/165/283/original/50f317b416d69fba.png
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aaronpk https://slack.com/trust/data-management/privacy-principles
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gRegor And who attends will depend in part on how safe the event appears to be. This is just part of our new reality. I want to encourage our events to prioritize the health and safety of all attendees. We have a good CoC and try to be inclusive, including for disabilities and medical conditions (mentioned in CoC). This goes hand in hand with that.
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gRegor More later maybe, need to step away for a bit.
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[tantek] Yes aaronpk, let's opt out of that
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aaronpk sent
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[tantek] It's good to be inclusive yes, and that inclusivity applies to who can be an organizer as well
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[tantek] We don't have one CoC for participants and another for organizers
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Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "Mar 29, 2023 10:00am The Future of ActivityPub Standardization and Related Subjects" changed tags "add w3c tag" https://events.indieweb.org/event/459/history/1713/diff
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gRegor Right... and we're not being as inclusive as we could be if organizers just "aren't comfortable" requiring masks and still go ahead and have an event.
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[tantek] The "as we could be" is hiding a lot of expectations, which aren't really reasonable for volunteer based events, and frankly IMO is an anti-inclusive phrase because "as we could be" greatly differs from person to person based on their ability
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[tantek] We should be doing more to enable & empower more people to be organizers of local HWCs and eventually IWCs, instead of making those roles less accessible
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Loqi [New Event] aaronparecki.com created "May 21, 2024 8:00am W3C FedID Community Group Meeting" https://events.indieweb.org/B0LdP30lMyMf
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aaronparecki.com edited /client_ID (+111) "link to docs" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk++ exciting!
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Loqi aaronpk has 43 karma in this channel over the last year (127 in all channels)
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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Loqi [Event Updated] artlung.com updated "May 18, 2024 7:00pm Bonus Online Homebrew Website Club - Social Norms in the IndieWeb" changed summary, description "Added summary for newsletter. Added apostrophe." https://events.indieweb.org/event/594/history/1715/diff
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[Al_Abut] [tantek] I appreciate your offer to write up some testing guidelines and incorporate them as organizer recommendations but to continue the theme of respectful frankness, I don’t feel good about doing that if it ends up being a fig leaf for not masking.
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[Al_Abut] I discussed this with my wife over dinner to double check and make sure I’m not misrepresenting health guidelines and yeah, the biggest risk is not masking during travel and at the event. Improved testing protocols before you engage in traveling and meeting as usual doesn’t mean anything.
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[Al_Abut] I realize this is a volunteer org and everyone can do what they’re comfortable with, and those that aren’t won’t, so I’m thankful there’s another SD event later this year to look forward to.
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[tantek] [Al_Abut] totally fine, and the point was to provide a place to capture what people want (Requests) and if you choose to help co-organize IWC SD, then a place to capture your plan (Brainstorming) and then we can see how it goes vs how it was planned
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[tantek] I don't believe it the "doesn't mean anything" assertion. That's not how epidemiology or frankly other things like security work. It's a series of probabilities, layers of defenses, and individual measures can impact the overall result even in the absence of other measures
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[tantek] I agree that the biggest risk is (especially long) travel before events, it's where you encounter many more strangers
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[tantek] During the event is highly varied based on size of space, airflow/filtering in the space, number of people and many other factors. Numerous studies have demonstrated those factors, and frankly at this point we have our own experiences as well with a variety of IWC event configurations
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[tantek] Any I have it my queue to add Requests and Brainstorming sections in /IWC_Organizing and move things there accordingly. I can ping you again once that's done
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tantek.com uploaded /File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-1.jpeg "Photo from Joschi, crop/rot by T https://indieweb.org/File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-1.jpeg"
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GWG I was thinking we need to have a pre arrival meeting for organizers, maybe just in chat to confirm who is bringing what
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[tantek] GWG like a Zoom call?
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[tantek] That's a good idea
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GWG [tantek]: Zoom Call, in chat, even email...some sort of final prep discussion before it is too late to do anything if we forgot
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[tantek] IWC organizing << Brainstorming: pre-camp meeting by organizers of the camp, possibly in Zoom, at least chat (some organizers are not on chat), or email perhaps, to confirm who is bringing what, idea by {{gwg}}, +1 {{t}}
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Loqi ok, I added "Brainstorming: pre-camp meeting by organizers of the camp, possibly in Zoom, at least chat (some organizers are not on chat), or email perhaps, to confirm who is bringing what, idea by {{gwg}}, +1 {{t}}" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWebCamp_Organizing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=95325&oldid=95263
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[tantek] GWG ^ feel free to edit further
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GWG For example, I had the remote participation stuff... although I left a piece in Ireland...so it didn't occur to me to check about other supplies.
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[tantek] GWG did you see the IWC DUS 2024 feedback / organizer notes page I created?
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GWG I turned my organizer kit over to SD
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GWG Let me look, I had a busy week
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[tantek] Could you add a section there with comments like what you wrote above about what you thought of during/after the event?
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[tantek] I added a section of notes from me
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GWG I pulled it up on my phone.
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GWG I was thinking we need to do a sticker and other materials run and distribute it worldwide
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9200.jpeg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9200.jpeg"
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tantek.com uploaded /File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9201.jpeg "Photo from Joschi, crop/rot by t https://indieweb.org/File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9201.jpeg"
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GWG Along with new organizer packs
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tantek.com uploaded /File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9202.jpeg "Photo from Joschi, crop/rot by t https://indieweb.org/File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9202.jpeg"
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[tantek] GWG, almost more important is the list of materials for the kits, and instructions to organizers for how to replenish them in their kits
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aaronpk s/almost//
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[tantek] We need to rework /IWC_kit accordingly
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tantek.com uploaded /File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9203.jpeg "Photo from Joschi, crop/rot by t https://indieweb.org/File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9203.jpeg"
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GWG I think we need to get back in the habit if we want to build some regular camps we can rely on annually
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tantek.com deleted /File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-1.jpeg "named it wrong. Reuploaded instead"
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[tantek] GWG, indeed, though right now it is very dependent on the specific conditions and volunteers of each city
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[tantek] GWG, if you could focus on one city to get back in the habit so you can rely on it annually, which city would it be?
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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GWG We need a Summit location, or we could repeat 2014....with events going on simultaneously in multiple cities...
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[tantek] aaronpk since we have new pages in the newsletter, should we have a grid of new photos & screenshots? We had a bunch this week and I think they would make the newsletter more visually attractive
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GWG I think SD could become a reliable annual US one.. maybe one more reliable annual city in the US.
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GWG Germany has been reliable
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[tantek] GWG, a Summit location is a completely different thing than the habit idea
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aaronpk oh like uploads to the wiki vs uploads to event pages?
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GWG Brighton UK I think might reliable
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[tantek] aaronpk yes uploads to the wiki
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GWG [tantek]: New US or old US locations?
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[tantek] But we call it new photos and screenshots
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aaronpk that'd be fun
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[tantek] GWG, not sure how that's connected?
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aaronpk there's a MW query for it already too https://indieweb.org/Special:ListFiles
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[tantek] Having trouble following your different suggestions/questions GWG
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[tantek] aaronpk right!
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[tantek] Not sure it's reasonable to try to build it for today but we can try for a future newsletter
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[tantek] Perhaps it encourages us to take & upload more screenshots too?
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aaronpk yeah probably not, that's a lot of image handling code to scramble together
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[tantek] 👍
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[tantek] What are cities
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Loqi cities are a good place to organize and host IndieWebCamps and Homebrew Website Club meetups; see the lists of cities below https://indieweb.org/cities
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[tantek] GWG ^ you can check that for some recent data on which cities are emerging as more reliable or possible future candidates
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[tantek] My theory is that it depends on having a city local organizer active in the community
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[tantek] Like it's less than six months to Berlin and we don't have a Berlin local IWC organizer who is active here in chat
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[tantek] That makes it much harder in my experience
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GWG [tantek]: That's why I was asking. I'm not sure where we have an excited local who can help us with ground work
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aaronpk oh hey micro.camp is today
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Loqi [New Event] aaronparecki.com created "May 17, 2024 11:45am Micro Camp" https://events.indieweb.org/2LLVNrGiuNaF
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GWG [tantek]: How do we get a local excited?
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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[tantek] GWG, we make it more fun that it is work to do
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[tantek] hence all my points about inclusiveness of organizers
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artlung.com edited /dark_mode (+144) "/* IndieWeb Examples / Joe Crawford */" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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[tantek] which of the IWC DUS Create Day photos should I upload to the Event for the newsletter?
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[tantek] (aaronpk, related to the newsletter "New photos and screenshots" feature, I added a "Recent uploads" link to the Sidebar to more easily access/review them as well
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[tantek] )
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[tantek] IWC DUS folks, GWG, capjamesg [Joschi_Kuphal], [daveletorey] [pfefferle] and anyone else here that has an opinion, which of these two photos is better for the day 2 group photo?
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[tantek] A: https://indieweb.org/File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9202.jpeg
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[tantek] B: https://indieweb.org/File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9203.jpeg
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tantek.com edited /File:2024-133-iwc-dus-create-day-9200.jpeg (+32) "photo from" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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capjamesg [tantek] B.
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capjamesg I'm hidden in A 😂
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[tantek] capjamesg I like B also 🙂
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[tantek] capjamesg vice versa! you're visible in A, hidden in B
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[tantek] I like both
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[tantek] looks like Joschi likes A
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capjamesg Dave and I are hidden in B.
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[tantek] ok I'll add both to the event
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capjamesg But you're hidden in B.
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capjamesg There's probably a utilitarian set algorithm we could devise here.
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capjamesg Or...
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capjamesg We could upload both as you say 😄
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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capjamesg Amazing newsletter this week!
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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GWG [tantek]: I took one during demos if you want
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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[tantek] GWG, you're welcome to upload it to the wiki!
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[tantek] interesting, image uploads to events don't show up here
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[tantek] !tell aaronpk another Meetable request, since event text or datetime edits show up here, so should image uploads to events
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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[tantek] what is Micro.camp?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Micro.camp" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Micro.camp is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] ^ anyone here at the event want to create a stub for that?
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[tantek] ^ starrwulfe ?
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aaronpk oh yeah i noticed that a while ago 😂 https://github.com/aaronpk/Meetable/issues/109
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Loqi aaronpk: [tantek] left you a message 45 minutes ago: another Meetable request, since event text or datetime edits show up here, so should image uploads to events
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Loqi [preview] [aaronpk] #109 Add edit notification when a photo is added
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tantek.com edited /developer-principles (+122) "stub dfn" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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[Joe_Crawford] what is X?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "X" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "X is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[Joe_Crawford] X is Twitter
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /X (+40) "prompted by [Joe_Crawford] and dfn added by [Joe_Crawford]" (view diff)
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[tantek] [Joe_Crawford] you need to put a / like /Twitter for the " is " reply if you want to make a redirect
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[tantek] like X is /T
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artlung.com edited /X (+4) (view diff)
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[tantek] I'm thinking it may be a better opportunity for humor though
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[Joe_Crawford] It's looking like they finalized their domain transition to the stupider name which is why I checked.
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tantek.com edited /X (+167) "update dfn to be more useful" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /X (+36) "add indieweb services and XRay example for more indieweb relevance" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /developer-principles (+13) "IndieWeb Principles" (view diff)
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Loqi [Event Updated] tantek.com updated "May 17, 2024 11:45am Micro Camp" changed summary "copy first sentence of description to summary" https://events.indieweb.org/event/612/history/1717/diff
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Loqi [Event Updated] tantek.com updated "May 17, 2024 11:45am Micro Camp" changed description "lets see if div style="white-space:prewrap" turns off the idiotic Markdown behavior of soft-wrapping linebreaks not preceded by space" https://events.indieweb.org/event/612/history/1718/diff
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Loqi [Event Updated] tantek.com updated "May 17, 2024 11:45am Micro Camp" changed description "that's pre-wrap" https://events.indieweb.org/event/612/history/1719/diff
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Loqi [Event Updated] tantek.com updated "May 17, 2024 11:45am Micro Camp" changed description "nope, markdown processing breaks white-space:pre-wrap. add double line-breaks to force markdown into making an emoji bulleted list an actual list instead of rewrapping it all into a single paragraph" https://events.indieweb.org/event/612/history/1720/diff
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[tantek] markdown--
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Loqi markdown has -1 karma in this channel over the last year (-7 in all channels)
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pcarrier many parsers like marked have a special mode for that. `gfm:true,breaks:true`
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pcarrier because github diverges from standard markdown around linebreaks, for good reason 🙂
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pcarrier you can force newlines to be newlines in standard markdown by finishing the previous line with ` `
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pcarrier (that's 2 spaces)
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pcarrier guess who implemented markdown support on found.as yesterday 😉
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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[tantek] yeah I know about the 2-spaces before a linebreak rule to make markdown treat a linebreak as a hard linebreak
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[tantek] what does gfm:true mean?
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pcarrier GitHub Flavored Markdown. it's required in marked for breaks:true to have any effect
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tantek.com edited /2024/Düsseldorf (+83) "/* Photos */ don't add more photos to the event, no desire to spam the newsletter, list of places to see photos, CTA to upload any more photos to the wiki" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2024/Düsseldorf/Schedule (-18) "/* Saturday */ no longer a stub section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2024/Düsseldorf/Schedule (+167) "/* Sunday */ photos of Create Day table" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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aaronparecki.com edited /FedCM (+168) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /FedCM (+77) (view diff)
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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tantek.com edited /2024/Düsseldorf/Planning/sunday-email (+302) "dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2024/Düsseldorf/Planning/sunday-email (-2) "g" (view diff)
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[tantek] !tell GWG https://indieweb.org/2024/D%C3%BCsseldorf/Feedback#Organizer_notes is the place to add a list-item for yourself with your thoughts & what you learned from the experience of co-organizing IWC DUS 2024
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] all the new pages should have dfns now
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[tantek] wish there was a way to get https://flipboard.video/w/ovAsDRovkgbihkZa3wMcUA into the "What we are listening to" section of the newsletter
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[tantek] I don't know how to go from Peertube -> Huffduffer tagged with #indieweb
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-05-17.html
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[tantek] Looks good. Thanks everyone for all the contributions, wiki edits etc.! Lots in there this week!
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[Joe_Crawford] 💯 yes a great week for news
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capjamesg 🎉
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[tantek] How do I get a podcast link like https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dot-social/id1717622022?i=1000655810007 into Huffduffer so it shows up in the newsletter?
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aaronpk need tofind the actual audio file url
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aaronpk let's see if that worked
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