#meta 2024-09-06

2024-09-06 UTC
pavel joined the channel
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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tantek.com edited /Nearly_Free_Speech (+114) "stub, dfn, linky, organize content into IndieWeb Examples, Features, Cost" (view diff)
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[tantek] [mattl]++ for a good start to a highly IndieWeb-relevant page. Thank you!
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Loqi [mattl] has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (5 in all channels)
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[mattl]2 I’m in the process of moving http://digboston.com
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[mattl]2 To NFS
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[mattl]2 They’re paying for it
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[mattl]2 I’m happy to have instilled some IndieWeb ideas there
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claudinec Uh oh, there was an existing page at https://indieweb.org/nearlyfreespeech – should probably try merging? But thanks and welcome [mattl]2 !
mretka, [qubyte], GWG, sp1ff and ChrisFu joined the channel
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ChrisFu Ignore me. Just seeing if my profile pic shows up in the web interface.
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ChrisFu And it does! Love it when things work. :-)
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pcarrier oooh I want that
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pcarrier looks like the thumbnail service doesn't support webp.
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ChrisFu I did wonder if your one purposely looked like a torn piece of paper.
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pcarrier moved to AVIF
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ChrisFu You'll want to change it here too: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=chat-names&action=edit&wvprov=sticky-header
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pcarrier ChrisFu: good call
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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pcarrier.com edited /TOFU (+369) "quick overview" (view diff)
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[tantek] claudinec++ for finding the dupe page, now to try to merge and rename accordingly (preferring the old page)
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Loqi claudinec has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (12 in all channels)
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[tantek] pcarrier is there an actual IndieWeb-specific use of TOFU that justifies us having our own wiki page rather than what Wikipedia already covers in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_on_first_use ?
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pcarrier [tantek]: depends on what one calls web. I mention Gemini which wikipedia doesn't
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tantek.com edited /relevant_to_the_IndieWeb_wiki (+34) "typo, explain why linking to the FAQ" (view diff)
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pcarrier [tantek]: that being said I was just sad that the page didn't say anything other than what the acronym reads, I'm not personally invested in having such a page
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[tantek] pcarrier Wikipedia mentions Gemini here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_(protocol)
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pcarrier yeah I mean not on the TOFU page
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[tantek] then that's something to improve on Wikipedia's TOFU page!
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pcarrier well I don't know that it passes the popularity barrier outside of the indie/smol/whatever web communities. a ton more people are exposed to TOFU than Gemini.
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pcarrier the page only exists because I used the term in chat without introducing it, my mistake
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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tantek.com edited /relevant_to_the_IndieWeb_wiki (+64) "/* What should not go on the wiki */ id for technical_terms, also jargon" (view diff)
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[tantek] pcarrier, yeah I'm not sure how we mitigate the Loqi prompting vs creating pages that are better just referencing Wikipedia
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[tantek] for now I tweaked the docs a bit for reference: https://indieweb.org/relevant_to_the_IndieWeb_wiki#What_should_not_go_on_the_wiki
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tantek.com edited /Zope (+114) "move some barely indieweb relevant aspect to dfn, SA WP article" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Zope (-47) "rm factoid that's already covered by Wikipedia Article" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /nearlyfreespeech (+409) (view diff)
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loqi.me created /bunny (+82) "prompted by [mattl]2 and dfn added by [mattl]2" (view diff)
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[tantek] looks like their canonical name is their domain so going to do a move
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tantek.com moved /nearlyfreespeech to /NearlyFreeSpeech.NET "canonical name on their home page and about"
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tantek.com edited /NearlyFreeSpeech.NET (+4) "canonical name in dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /NFSN (+34) "redir abbr in footer of their own page" (view diff)
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[tantek] ^ also in their favicon
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tantek.com edited /NearlyFreeSpeech (+3) "r--" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Nearly_Free_Speech (+3) "r--" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /SSH (+327) "expand dfn to actually say what it does, use by scp which itself is used by IndieWeb folks" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /SCP (+17) "r" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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[tantek] I'm guessing more people use TOFU here with SSH than Gemini so that's where I'm going to redirect
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tantek.com edited /TOFU (-417) "r to a page which covers a primary use which is at least semi IndieWeb relevant" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /SSH (+232) (view diff)
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[tantek] oh no
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tantek.com edited /SSH (+296) "dd a paragraph relating to TOFU as a redirect target" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /friendly (-7) (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /Seahorse (+57) (view diff)
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[tantek] thanks [mattl]
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[tantek] part of the point of keeping the wiki to things directly IndieWeb related is not taking on the burden of gardening more pages than the community has interest in gardening, or rather, not doing a poor job at pages on subjects which other communities are actively doing a better job
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[tantek] cc: pcarrier
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[tantek] and in the cases where those others have a gap or something missing, please update them directly rather than trying to patch a gap using the IndieWeb wiki
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pcarrier I've literally never created a page :D
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[tantek] sound reasonable?
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[tantek] lol where did TOFU come from
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[tantek] ah yes to2ds via Loqi
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[tantek] yeah I should add some docs about how to garden these unintended new pages
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[mattl]2 yeah, i'm trying to make things link to the relevant indieweb parts... there's a lot of older articles like that Seahorse once I made in 2014 apparently that can probably redirect to a single page of Linux-related Indieweb tools.
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[tantek] yes that would be great [mattl]
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[mattl]2 what is linux
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "linux" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "linux is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] we only have a small number of folks gardening the wiki so we're trying to keep the garden more maintainable as it were
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mat.tl created /linux (+485) "prompted by [mattl]2" (view diff)
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[mattl]2 yeah, it's my intention to do a lot more wiki gardening as I really enjoy it.
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mat.tl edited /macOS (+140) (view diff)
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[tantek] could use your review of /wikify as well then to make sure the guidance we are giving is as clear and understandable as possible
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[mattl]2 on it. i have to go to the bank and get my rent check in a few but I'll look when I'm back
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[mattl]2 what is windows
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "windows" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "windows is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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mat.tl created /windows (+122) "prompted by [mattl]2" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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mat.tl edited /Zope (-179) "Redirected page to [[Plone#Zope]]" (view diff)
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mat.tl created /bunny.net (+86) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>bunny.net</dfn>''' is a CDN and static file host. https://bunny.net."" (view diff)
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[tantek] lol [mattl] pages are case sensitive
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[mattl]2 What is Windows
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Loqi Windows is a series of operating systems from Microsoft https://indieweb.org/windows
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[mattl]2 [tantek] I'm realizing that now 🙂
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pcarrier so we have Windows but not wiki
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pcarrier what is wiki
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/wiki
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pcarrier nevermind. I tried /Wiki
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[mattl]2 you typed that in manually and it didn't work?
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mat.tl created /Linux (+19) "redirect for case sensitivity" (view diff)
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mat.tl created /Windows (+21) "redirect for case sensitivity" (view diff)
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[tantek] yeah I definitely need to write that up
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[tantek] what is a dfn
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Loqi The HTML dfn tag is a way to denote the first time a term is defined https://indieweb.org/dfn
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[tantek] lol
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[tantek] what is a definition
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Loqi A definition on the IndieWeb wiki should be an accessible, basic, clear, plain English description of the term (or phrase) naming a wiki page, with an explicit connection to the term’s relevance to the IndieWeb, and ideally without any use of jargon https://indieweb.org/definition
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[tantek] ^ [mattl] start with that
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[tantek] if you're unable to provide a definition with a direct IndieWeb relevance, it's a good clue the page should not be on the wiki
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[tantek] even if there are "similar" existing pages on the wiki
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mat.tl edited /iOS (+403) (view diff)
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[tantek] and rather than redirects, the key here is to CREATE the page with the canonical capitalization, and then redirect any prior misspellings/capitalizations to it
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[tantek] for relatively new pages anyway
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[tantek] if it's an old page, a MOVE is fine to the canonical capitalization
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[mattl]2 I don't think I have permission to move stuff
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[tantek] Loqi doesn't pick up moves/redirects so "new" pages that have been moved or redirect disappear and don't make it into the newsletter
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[tantek] oh interesting
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Loqi redirect disappear and don't make it into the newsletter
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[tantek] lol
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mat.tl edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[linux]] to [[Linux]] over redirect: Misspelled title" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /Special:Log/delete () "Mat.tl deleted redirect [[Linux]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[linux]]"" (view diff)
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[mattl]2 I have move, I just didn't see the icon
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mat.tl edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[windows]] to [[Windows]] over redirect: Misspelled title" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /Special:Log/delete () "Mat.tl deleted redirect [[Windows]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[windows]]"" (view diff)
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mat.tl moved /windows to /Windows "Misspelled title"
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mat.tl deleted /Windows "Deleted to make way for move from "[[windows]]""
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[tantek] what is linux
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Linux
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[tantek] what is windows
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Windows
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[tantek] well that's broken
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[mattl]2 yeah, fixing
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[tantek] ah, no dfn elements
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mat.tl edited /Windows (+62) "fixing the redirect loop" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /Linux (+171) (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /iTunes (+2) "Fixing broken category tag" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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mat.tl edited /Movable_Type (+282) (view diff)
barnaby and srijan joined the channel
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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mat.tl edited /omg.lol (-10) (view diff)
AramZS joined the channel
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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[tantek] is anyone using http://bunny.net ?
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[tantek] [mattl] ^
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tantek.com edited /bunny.net (+8) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /static_file_host (+25) "r" (view diff)
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jimw [tantek] I use bunny.net for some static sites and some static content for my site.
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jimw and for DNS.
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tantek.com edited /bunny.net (+60) "stub IndieWeb Examples per meta chat" (view diff)
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[tantek] jimw can you add yourself to https://indieweb.org/bunny.net#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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trainedmonkey.com edited /bunny.net (+86) "Add myself" (view diff)
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catgirlin.space [tantek] i use it on my website :3
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[tantek] amazing! can you add your website to https://indieweb.org/bunny.net#IndieWeb_Examples and how you use it?
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catgirlin.space mmm maybe later >.< am bored rn and editing a wiki page takes effort....
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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[tantek] not really, you can use the < < directive (removing the space between the <s)
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[tantek] but yes it takes the effort for you to describe *how* you use it on your website, but that makes sense because no one else can answer that besides you!
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catgirlin.space mmmm okii ill do it >.< (no idea what the < < syntax is tbh, dont know loqi enough...)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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capjamesg[d] catgirlin_space0[d] The syntax is at https://indieweb.org/Loqi
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capjamesg[d] [edit] catgirlin_space0[d] The syntax is at https://indieweb.org/Loqi
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catgirlin.space ooo ty
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catgirlin.space still don’t know loqi’s pronouns :(
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[schmarty] who is loqi?
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot/digital therapist present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indieweb.org/User:Loqi.me
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[schmarty] good idea to add pronouns there! 😄
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capjamesg[d] Loqi << TODO: Define pronouns.
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Loqi ok, I added "TODO: Define pronouns." to the "See Also" section of /Loqi https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=96874&oldid=88238
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capjamesg[d] The < < syntax [tantek] mentioned was that you can use those symbols to add something to the bottom of a wiki page from here.
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capjamesg[d] My comment above just added "TODO: Define pronouns" to the end of the /Loqi page.
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catgirlin.space mhm, so it wouldn’t have added to indieweb examples for like, the bunny.net example? confusing
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capjamesg[d] You would have to edit that section from the wiki, yeah 😦
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capjamesg[d] The link is: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=bunny.net&action=edit&section=1
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capjamesg[d] [edit] The link is: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=bunny.net&action=edit&section=1
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capjamesg[d] (You'll need to be signed in!)
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capjamesg[d] I can add you too if you'd like 🙏
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catgirlin.space mhm, already did it
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catgirlin.space wait
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catgirlin.space nvm i must’ve never saved
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catgirlin.space hhhh
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capjamesg[d] 😭
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capjamesg[d] Wiki editing isn't intuitive.
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catgirlin.space it’s fine i’ll find a bench
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catgirlin.space capjamesg[d]: pretty sure i just got distracted and never hit save
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capjamesg[d] TIL there is no bench emoji.
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catgirlin.space edited /bunny.net (+118) "add myself :3" (view diff)
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catgirlin.space yay
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Loqi catgirlin_space0[d] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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capjamesg[d] catgirlin_space0[d]++
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catgirlin.space yay
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catgirlin.space ty
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[tantek] catgirlin_space0[d]++ woo hoo!
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Loqi catgirlin_space0[d] has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
barnaby joined the channel
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+42) "typos, changed some of my votes, -1 on tmp" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+159) "/* Brainstorming */ remove a level of section depth, add subsections for all naming polls to make it easier to reference each one to encourage more votes" (view diff)
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[tantek] ok folks, please go add your opinions to the polls here: https://indieweb.org/discuss#Brainstorming
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[tantek] in particular I'd like to call your attention to something which should appeal to (nearly) everyone, having an opinion on naming
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+4) "/* Brainstorming */ alpha sort naming options with linebreaks between each option to make it easier to see where to add your opinion" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /discuss (+195) "/* off the record naming */" (view diff)
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[tantek] one I'd like us to settle on sooner than later because I think it will be a big positive help to our Zooms is the "live / events" channel
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[tantek] please add your opinion on these names for a new channel: https://indieweb.org/discuss#events_meetups_naming
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mat.tl edited /discuss (+34) "/* events meetups naming */" (view diff)
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[tantek] or if you have another suggestion for a "live / events chat" channel, please read https://indieweb.org/discuss#events_meetups_channel for scope/meaning prior art and then make a suggestion within that context
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aaronpk this mess of +1/-1 in the wiki really makes me wish we had a better voting tool 😂
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-09-06.html
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+318) "/* web making naming */ maker more inclusive than frontend" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk, even Wikipedia has nothing better e.g. with their AfDs e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tenet_Media
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[tantek] [Joe_Crawford] what are you feelings on an # indieweb-maker channel?
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[Joe_Crawford] I believe we talked about front end channel potentially but dev seems to have been fine for that more or less. No strong feelings.
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[tantek] ok
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mat.tl edited /bunny.net (+103) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /bunny.net (+41) "IndieWeb relevance to dfn" (view diff)
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[mattl]2 bunny using plain old FTP as a way upload stuff in 2024 is certainly a choice
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[tantek] aaronpk, looks like indieweb-cafe is in the lead with 8 points here: https://indieweb.org/discuss#off_the_record_naming. Next closest is only 3 points for -offtherecord
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[mattl]2 indieweb-cafe, the natural successor to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Cafe_(TV_series)
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[tantek] and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_caf%C3%A9
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[tantek] I mean I could propose indieweb-cybercafe if folks really want
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[mattl]2 I would love that
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[tantek] "indieweb-cafe" has roughly the same syllables as "internet-cafe" so that's a win
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[tantek] this will eventually result in one of us opening an IRL indieweb cafe
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[tantek] likely in Portland because where else
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[mattl]2 I already have a vague idea to open one near Harvard Law School called "coffeeright infringement"
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aaronpk or Vienna, already got a store front https://media.aaronpk.com/2024/09/file-20240906153902-9080.jpg
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aaronpk INDIE is also around the corner from FOAF https://media.aaronpk.com/2024/09/file-20240906153937-1874.jpg
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jimw [mattl]2 yeah, the ftp thing is odd, but as a service they feel like they've really just started expanding from just being a CDN.
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[mattl]2 for a while near the FSF office we had CVS, vim and Emack & Bolio's
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[mattl]2 jimw: yeah, i think they're a pretty new thing in general.
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tantek.com edited /Template:mattl (-83) "replace with an embed of his newer template" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+187) "/* off the record channel */ resort, add indieweb-cybercafe for mattl" (view diff)
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[tantek] ^ there you go [mattl] — will leave it to you to see if you can rally the votes to catch-up to indieweb-cafe 🙂
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trainedmonkey.com edited /discuss (+152) "Add some votes from me" (view diff)
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catgirlin.space edited /discuss (+124) "/* off the record naming */ add my opinions (will add more later)" (view diff)