#meta 2024-09-10

2024-09-10 UTC
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[mattl]2 Yeah I’m planning on bringing a lot of the developer related stuff together with a template that’ll link it all together. Trying to do a hard stop around 6pm each day though.
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[mattl]2 At what point can we say a page is no longer a stub? I removed the stub template from Drupal as it’s a fairly fleshed out page.
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[tantek] we don't have any hard & fast rules about stubs, up to the judgment of the editor. for me personally if it feels like a major section is missing / empty / with barely any content that should have at least *something* more substantial then I leave it as a stub. we also have the section-stub template now, so we can use that to mark specific sections as stub-like and remove the overall stub template for the page
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[tantek] also if someone disagrees and wants to do more work on a page, they can add the stub template back according to their judgment
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[mattl]2 Would you say the Drupal page is no longer a stub?
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[tantek] what is drupal
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Loqi Drupal is a popular open source content management system with excellent plugins for IndieWeb use https://indieweb.org/Drupal
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[tantek] oh yeah that looks solid
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[mattl]2 Tantek++
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Loqi Tantek has 33 karma in this channel over the last year (125 in all channels)
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mat.tl edited /multi-site_indieweb (+54) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+166) "feature: 20 items supported in carousels now, previously before 2024 was 10" (view diff)
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[mattl]2 I want to organize an event next year with an IWC embedded in it.
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[mattl]2 A two maybe three day event, in/near Boston.
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mat.tl edited /relevant_to_the_IndieWeb_wiki (+27) "/* Brainstorming */" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /.plan (+166) "prompted by [mattl]2 and dfn added by [mattl]2" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /Doom (+80) "prompted by [mattl]2 and dfn added by [mattl]2" (view diff)
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mat.tl created /NeXTSTEP (+421) "prompted by [mattl]2" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /NeXTSTEP (+197) (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Windows (+80) "[mattl]2 added "https://blogsystem5.substack.com/p/windows-nt-vs-unix-design" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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gRegor Anybody's website run Doom? :D
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[mattl]2 I want mine to run NeXT DOOM
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[mattl]2 For the lads
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gRegor what is feedly
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Loqi Feedly is a feed reader service https://indieweb.org/Feedly
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gregorlove.com edited /Feedly (+41) "mv "Union-busting employee surveillance" from See Also to Issues" (view diff)
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[jacky] gRegor: goal for 2025 lol
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[jacky] https://github.com/cloudflare/doom-wasm
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Loqi [preview] [cloudflare] doom-wasm: Chocolate Doom WebAssembly port with WebSockets support
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] !tell [mattl] are there intentions of expanding /.plan /Doom /NextSTEP /Windows to have IndieWeb relevance? We really don't have a community to improve stubs that are just very small subsets of what's already on Wikipedia. Like literally if you can't put the IndieWeb relevance into the dfn when you create a page, at this point don't bother.
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[tantek] We have too many such abandoned stubs already
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tantek.com edited /macOS (+321) "add IndieWeb relevance to definition, software section with IndieWeb relevant software, move SA criticism to its own section, remove red cat lacking IndieWeb relevance" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /macOS (+5) "(OS)" (view diff)
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tantek.com deleted /Windows "content was: stub without IndieWeb-relevance better handled by Wikipedia"
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tantek.com deleted /NeXTSTEP "content was: stub without IndieWeb-relevance better handled by Wikipedia"
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tantek.com deleted /Doom "content was: stub without IndieWeb-relevance better handled by Wikipedia"
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tantek.com deleted /.plan "content was: stub without IndieWeb-relevance better handled by Wikipedia"
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tantek.com edited /Rust (+15) "add indieweb relevance to dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Elixir (+81) "add indieweb relevance to dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Haskell (+17) "add indieweb relevance to dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Go (+120) "add indieweb relevance to dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /JavaScript (+129) "update the JS definition to be more indieweb relevant and blunt about benefits and drawbacks of current use" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /JavaScript (-63) "drop cats not particularly indieweb relevant" (view diff)
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tantek.com deleted /GNOME "content was: stub without IndieWeb-relevance better handled by Wikipedia"
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tantek.com edited /email (+473) "move Thunderbird links, dfn, plug-in here." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Thunderbird () "(-541) move not directly indieweb related subject to be a subsection of a larger topic page, leave redirect behind" (view diff)
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tantek.com deleted /Seahorse "content was: redirect without IndieWeb-relevance better handled by Wikipedia"
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tantek.com edited /Known (-104) "page logo, move cats to just about SA, drop red link cats, https some sites at least" (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /Firefox_OS (+106) (view diff)
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mat.tl edited /Firefox_OS (-64) (view diff)
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[tantek] ^ there's very long Firefox OS article on Wikipedia with presumably all that info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS - [mattl] what is the point of replicating that work here that it is very unlikely we will maintain better than Wikipedia?
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[mattl]2 The page was already there. I’m adding a link to the only part of that stuff that’s still being used.
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pcarrier I guess maybe the default attitude toward pages that aren't closely related to indieweb should be to lose them?
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[mattl]2 I may just start removing pages that aren’t relevant. It would be nice to have less pages with a few sentences on them.
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mat.tl deleted /Firefox_OS "Better served by Wikipedia"
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mat.tl deleted /windows "content was: "#REDIRECT [[Windows]]", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Mat.tl|Mat.tl]]" ([[User talk:Mat.tl|talk]])"
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[tantek] Right, unless there's at least something directly relevant already on the wiki (somewhere) that you can link to / incorporate or YOU yourself are using that thing in an IndieWeb relevant way
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[tantek] pcarrier it's like I said above, if you can't come up with a dfn that has indieweb relevance, at least don't create the page or expand it
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[tantek] Rather if you find such a page and want to expand it, the FIRST thing you should do is find/add indieweb relevance to the dfn, not other Wikipedia-like factoids
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[tantek] [mattl] it's ok to have pages with one or a few sentences as long as there is clear indieweb relevance
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loqi.me created /sitedeath (+23) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /sitedeaths (+23) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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[tantek] switching to here for wiki editing/enhancement talk
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[tantek] [mattl] sometimes in places on pages I've put (needs screenshot) which now that I think about it maybe should be a template
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[tantek] even just listing features of a silo etc and adding (needs screenshot) can be helpful, especially for folks that would like to take screenshots and add them but are not sure which are needded
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[mattl]2 Sounds good. We can use a (needs screenshot) template so there’s some category of low hanging wiki tasks
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[tantek] could probably fork (copy paste contents of) /Template:warning to start and maybe stick a 🖼️ emoji at the start to help call them out
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gRegor what is indieweb relevance
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Loqi Anything directly related to people with their own websites, such as technologies and services used, design and UX, formats and protocols, as well as events or podcasts with IndieWeb talks or content are relevant to the IndieWeb wiki https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb_relevance
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[tantek] what is warning
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "warning" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "warning is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor Use of https://indieweb.org/Template:relevance_needed could be included on there and on /wikifying somewhere, probably. Like "if you find a page lacking relevance and can't add it immediately, add this template"
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[tantek] ^ that page needs a "What this template looks like" section
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[tantek] I'll handle /warning
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gRegor Ok, I'll update that
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[tantek] ty!
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gRegor The category that adds pages to is also displayed as a list on https://indieweb.org/to-do#Update_definitions_with_IndieWeb_relevance
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[tantek] ok I kinda want a separate events channel now for discussion about and during events
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GWG [Joe_Crawford]: JetBlue has a sale on travel.... reminded me...not holding you to it... but any idea on a timeframe for an IWC?
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[tantek] it's different enough from the meta of the wiki, chat, other infra etc. that I think it's worth it
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GWG I'm thinking of visiting Savannah
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[tantek] ^ bingo, example. good timing GWG lol
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aaronpk Can we settle on the new off the record channel? I would rather do all the chat infra changes at the same time to reduce context switching overhead
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tantek.com created /warning (+336) "stub a disambig" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:relevance_needed/doc (+64) "example" (view diff)
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GWG Isn't IWC on the record?
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[tantek] GWG, different subject
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[tantek] aaronpk, "all the chat infra changes" is a lot and a bit completist (perfect enemy of good), do you think we can scale that back to a logical "chunk" of new chat infra changes instead of all?
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[tantek] what is a warning
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Loqi ⚠ A warning in the context of the IndieWeb could be a content warning (AKA trigger warning) on a post or link, or the warning template used for placing a warning on a page or section as part of wikifying https://indieweb.org/warning
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[tantek] there we go
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pcarrier on that note, still ready to run the Discord unarchiver on whichever channels we want, with whichever timing we want 🙂
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[tantek] thanks pcarrier
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[tantek] GWG, I believe the latest for IWC San Diego timeframe is still "December" and nothing more specific.
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GWG Darn
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[tantek] aaronpk, I'll cluster the "chat infra change" proposals that seem ready or close to ready
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GWG I guess I'll take a risk
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[tantek] if you're looking for a proposed set
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[tantek] GWG, I'd warn against that unless you know you can easily change JetBlue flights without incurring (too much of) a fee
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GWG [tantek]: Cancel for full credit anytime. And I used them to San Diego last few times
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[tantek] aaronpk, can I ask you to respond to this poll in the meantime? https://indieweb.org/discuss#Avoid_Tech_Rants_Poll (and anyone else who has an opinion on this too, I think [snarfed] does at least, and I bet [mattl] [schmarty] gRegor do too 🙂 )
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+435) "/* events meetups channel */ update my votes. changed my mind and top pref is now #events" (view diff)
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[tantek] gRegor, [KevinMarks], [schmarty] do you have opinions on naming a (live sometimes) events/meetups channel? https://indieweb.org/discuss#events_meetups_naming — y'all are good/insightful with names & naming
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[tantek] aaronpk, after allowing ^ a bit of time to contribute to that naming poll, I think we will be ready to cluster both the 'off the record' and the '(live) events/meetups' channel naming/creation. those are the two biggest use-cases / "pain" sources for chat channels right now, the other proposals are less urgent / necessary (maker channel, link sharing, protocols talk)
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[snarfed] [tantek] hell yes! strongly agree with avoid tech rants. I've heard this called (and myself called it) "tech politics" before, which is probably complicated terminology at best, but also felt like it captured it well
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gRegor Yeah, I took aaronpk's comment to mean deciding on OTR channel and adding event channel as one change.
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[snarfed] "avoid tech rants" works for me too!
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capjamesg[d] ++
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[tantek] [snarfed] I want to see if we can thread the difference between discouraging unproductive rants, and encouraging actual beneficial discussions of technology and values/principles/impacts on humans which is fundamentally "political" and "politics"
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[snarfed] yeah, hence "complicated"
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[tantek] hence yeah I dislike the framing "tech politics" which I find highly status-quoist
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[snarfed] "tech politics" feels too broad, I slightly worry if "tech rants" is maybe too narrow...
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[tantek] which frankly, if you're in this community, you're not status-quoist 😄
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[snarfed] ie "this isn't a rant, I'm being calm, and this is important, we need to talk about it!" hrmph
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[tantek] lol
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[snarfed] but yeah I'm down to try new language!
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[tantek] yes yes we encourage people to blog their important concerns 😂
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+83) "/* Avoid Tech Rants Poll */ add capjamesg from chat" (view diff)
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[tantek] [snarfed] to be even more direct, by very nature of the fact that we have /principles which are not "purely technical", we (IndieWeb) are political. we can't escape it
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[tantek] gRegor++ for /Template:relevance_needed thank you thank you this is what I have been missing and have needed for a while ❤️
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Loqi gRegor has 56 karma in this channel over the last year (132 in all channels)
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gRegor yw. I'm pretty sure it came from our discussion where you were saying we needed it :) Wow, almost a year ago according to edit history
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trainedmonkey.com edited /discuss (+14) "/* Avoid Tech Rants Poll */" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk, new channel summary for now: indieweb-cafe is leading with +9 (closest 2nd is indieweb-offtherecord at +4), and indieweb-events is leading with +6 (closest 2nd is indieweb-live with +4)
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capjamesg[d] When do we consider the vote complete?
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[tantek] capjamesg[d] in the past we have done so at annual Organizers meetups where we see if there is (1) a clear leading option, (2) absence of any (serious?) objections
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[tantek] but that was 5y+ ago 😢 so now we have to wing it a bit and frankly try to establish a similar decision in public chat (barring a better alternative)
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[tantek] alright, is anyone else here going to Fediforum this week? https://fediforum.org/2024-09/ I see [manton] and [timothy_chambe] there. Didn't see [snarfed] signed up (yet) though.
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tantek.com edited /FediForum (+89) "add IndieWeb event to 2024-033" (view diff)
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[tantek] could one of you (or anyone else here interested in helping!) create an event accordingly on http://events.indieweb.org linking to https://fediforum.org/2024-09/ and their registration link, summarizing the description? You could duplicate https://events.indieweb.org/2023/09/fediforum-september-2023-LQ43AMkZsAly and edit the fields accordingly to update for 2024-09
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tantek.com edited /FediForum (-41) "simplify dfn a bit" (view diff)
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gRegor what is fediforum
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Loqi FediForum is a semi-annual conference for people working on the "fediverse", with several IndieWeb community members participating and some leading talks on IndieWeb-relevant topics. The first conference was held on March 29-30th, 2023 https://indieweb.org/FediForum
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martymcgui.re edited /discuss (+22) "/* Avoid Tech Rants Poll */ +me" (view diff)
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catgirlin.space pcarrier[d] discord unarchiver?
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aaronpk Right I just mean if I'm gonna go edit these config files and discord/slack and munge IRC channel permissions I want to do that just once for the next while
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pcarrier catgirlin_space0[d] automatically remove messages older than X for the successor to #indieweb-chat
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catgirlin.space ohh
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pcarrier catgirlin_space0[d] https://github.com/pcarrier/purgatorial
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pcarrier [edit] catgirlin_space0[d] https://github.com/pcarrier/purgatorial
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catgirlin.space ooo cool,,,,,
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mat.tl edited /discuss (+16) "/* Avoid Tech Rants Poll */" (view diff)
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aaronpk Oh and yes agreed on finalizing just those two new channel use cases for now
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[tantek] alright last call for any objections (or votes rallying for alternatives) for new channels for: 'off the record' of "indieweb-cafe" and '(live) events/meetup' of "indieweb-events". Otherwise if they’re still clearly leading and no objections by say tomorrow noon Pacific Time, let's make it so.
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[mattl]2 I do just think we should call it cybercafe purely for vibes
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[tantek] that can be our informal name for it in speaking 😄
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[tantek] "let's take this to the cybercafe"
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[tantek] when you want to refer to it in plain speech but not call attention to the precise channel name
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[mattl]2 I may setup an old Macintosh for chatting purely in the cafe
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pcarrier as long as it's not #indieweb-starbucks… 😄
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capjamesg[d] I like Starbucks.
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pcarrier didn't mean to criticize the chain, picked most famous café brand
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[mattl]2 indieweb-runs-on-dunkin
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capjamesg[d] pcarrier[d] I wish they had Pumpkin Spice Lattes without sugar.
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[tantek] ^ this is all on-topic for the indieweb-cafe ☕
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[mattl]2 Great place for your espresso machine too
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[tantek] yes yes
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gRegor join the #indieweb-cafe, open https://coffitivity.com/, click play, enjoy your beverage of choice :D
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mat.tl edited /Lektor (+26) (view diff)
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aaronpk tempted to get my Mac SE online just so I can connect to IRC from it https://metalbabble.wordpress.com/2020/02/08/the-final-frontier-connecting-a-macintosh-se-to-the-internet-with-a-raspberry-pi/
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GWG Reminder, there is an HWC Pacific tomorrow...who is in?
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gregorlove.com edited /XOXO (+48) "/* See Also */ +enwp" (view diff)
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gRegor Might stop by later in the evening
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[mattl]2 I’m excited for HWC Eastern tomorrow. I was going to be at the office for it but I’ve sprained my ankle so I’m at home.
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[0x3b0b] What do we typically do about broken links? I was thinking of updating the "microblog.pub" page to mention the community fork later, and was wondering whether I should do something about the main website and documentation links which are currently dead.