#meta 2025-05-30

2025-05-30 UTC
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artlung.com
edited /typecast (+4) "/* See Also */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/SF/apps (+71) "cats, SA"
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[artlung]
what is a vlog
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "vlog" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "vlog is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor
going to mark these cat edits as minor to reduce noise
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[artlung]
vlog is vlogging
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loqi.me
created /vlog (+44) "prompted by [artlung] and dfn added by [artlung]"
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[artlung]
hmmm. i wanted that to be a redirect.
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[artlung]
oh totally gregor. sorry
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gRegor
not a complaint, you're fine :)
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artlung.com
edited /vlog (-22) "Redirected page to [[vlogging]]"
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[artlung]
what is a vlog?
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Loqi
vlogging is blogging using video as a medium https://indieweb.org/vlog
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[tantek]
cat edits as minor makes sense to me gRegor 👍
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gRegor
Thoughts on removing etherpad.mozilla.org links since that's been dead a while?
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artlung.com
edited /Skype (+39) "past tense for definition"
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[tantek]
gRegor, if it's in the context of "Archived from: ...etherpad mozilla link" then I think wrapping them in <nowiki> </nowiki> is fine
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artlung.com
edited /Periscope (+55) "category, note about shutdown"
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artlung.com
edited /Periscope (+185) "change how to communicate shutdown"
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artlung.com
edited /spoiler_post (+157) "adding spoiler link"
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gRegor
Ah, here's an example of the city-category thing, a redlink to https://indieweb.org/Category:Baltimore with 12 pages in it. So could make it a redirect to /Baltimore and avoid editing all those pages.
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gRegor
Is that what you meant, [tantek]?
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[tantek]
I think that's a reasonable path yes
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gregorlove.com
edited /Baltimore (+41) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ first meetup"
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gRegor
what is Category:Baltimore
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Loqi
🦀 Baltimore is a city in the US state of Maryland that hosted Homebrew Website Club meetups starting 2016-09-21 once a month or more, and an IndieWebCamp in 2018 https://indieweb.org/Category%3ABaltimore
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gRegor
Ah interesting, if you add the `redirect=no` you can still see pages in that cat: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Baltimore&redirect=no
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gRegor
That link is also found when you follow a redirect, at the top "(Redirected from Category:Baltimore)
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[artlung]
are you also then adding an include of Category:Baltimore - and thus the pages?
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gRegor
On /Baltimore? I can, sure
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[artlung]
well - does that follow from that? considering whether that makes sense for /music to include Category:Music
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[tantek]
how do you redirect and include a cat page? I don't think that works?
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gRegor
it does with categorytree. just a sec
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[tantek]
ah you're already there, very good
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gregorlove.com
edited /Amsterdam (+88) "Other Pages with categorytree (example)"
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gRegor
I think with broader topics like music it doesn't make as much sense, maybe a table like on /WordPress and similar pages
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gRegor
But only if it's really needed
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artlung.com
edited /scrobble (+85) "adding category tree for music to scrobble (which is the destination for /music)"
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[artlung]
yeah I just added it to https://indieweb.org/scrobble and I'm not crazy about it
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gregorlove.com
edited /Amsterdam (+101) "/* Other Pages */ +instruction"
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artlung.com
edited /scrobble (-86) "removing related pages"
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gRegor
in practice I think most of these will remain static, not many pages added to them
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gregorlove.com
edited /Baltimore (+188) "Other Pages"
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[artlung]
i think that's good.
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[artlung]
Maybe a copyedit to... _To add a pages to this list, add `[[Category: Amsterdam]]` to its content._
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[artlung]
or similar.
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[artlung]
but fine as is
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gRegor
what is analytics
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Loqi
analytics is the collection, analysis and reporting of a websites traffic https://indieweb.org/analytics
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[artlung]
I'm not sure I looked at all 5000+ pages on the wiki today but I looked at a lot
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[artlung]
Also [tantek] if you get a notion I feel like `[[Category:Antipattern]]` would give you some pleasure to see the results of.
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gRegor
Think I'm done for the day
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[artlung]
SAN DIEGO POWER
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[tantek]
[artlung] plenty of red-links and other gardening to do on the existing /antipatterns page. Not sure if we need a category yet? Maybe some day.
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[artlung]
yeah, I noticed there are a few and thought it was a nice category.
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[artlung]
and there's a potential category like Blogging which might be too large to be a legit category
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[artlung]
but categories for the sake of categories is not the goal. i want to point at good stuff with a category. And Video, Feed, Writing, and Music fit the bill for me
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artlung.com
edited /blogroll (+29) "/* Joe Crawford - changed how my blogroll works */"
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[tantek]
agreed, categories for the sake of categorization are not helpful. You have something there with a curational intent, a path to focused disocvery
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[tantek]
discovery*
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[tantek]
I was also thinking something like blogs and/or blogging could be a category to help the folks looking for that old nostalgia hit
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lifeofpablo.com
edited /Planning (+17) "/* New York City */"
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tantek.com
edited /Planning (-186) "move Cambridge MA to Restart a Recent City to help keep it recent without expectations, move New Haven, Oxford, Utrecht to Past Cities (no organizers from those cities seen in chat in 1y+)"
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Loqi
Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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tantek.com
edited /Bangalore (-156) "fix dfn for, rm SD copypasta"
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[artlung]
Went on a tear looking at videos on the Internet Archive for indieweb seeing about what could be extracted. https://gist.github.com/artlung/91990f51e291c38491f38fa4ff795b18 not really consistent in their naming and conventions but in theory could be used to generate some friendly video pages.
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[artlung]
I basically scraped the returned json when the page loads and parsed out some fields. Now that I did that probably there's a api and this was silly. Alas. Still, PESOS back to the wiki from Internet Archive!
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gRegor
[artlung] could build a playlist from that! indieweb dot tv :D
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gRegor
meant to karma [artlung]++
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Loqi
[artlung] has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (71 in all channels)
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gRegor
where did that come from, Loqi??
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[artlung]
There’s also videos on the YouTube account. I have some experience automating grabbing that metadata for my cssbattles.
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gRegor
Ah, looks like a preview of that User page above but that was like an hour and a half ago
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gRegor
There's a todo for moving those videos to archive.org if they're not already: https://indieweb.org/to-do#Move_YouTube_archived_content_to_archive.org
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[artlung]
Oh! That’s cool. I know what the steps for that would be.
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gRegor
Not sure, GWG has done most of it so can probably provide details and logins. Well, login you probably have in the 1password already.
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gRegor
I think we're still leaving them on YT for discoverability, but newer ones usually just go on IA
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[artlung]
I’ll be looking more tomorrow I think. Thanks for that!
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[artlung]
I won’t do any moves or copying without coordinating in here of course.
aelaraji5, gRegor, gRegorLove_, [qubyte] and barnaby joined the channel
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GWG
I moved a lot of them from YouTube to Archive.org but not all. And some are all day recordings that need to be cut into sessions
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aaronpk
ok i got my mailchimp account under 2000 contacts https://media.aaronpk.com/2025/05/30065023-8258.png
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aaronpk
newsletter should go out today
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aaronpk
need a longer term solution for this though
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[schmarty]
aaronpk++ downsizing++
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Loqi
downsizing has 1 karma over the last year
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Loqi
aaronpk has 33 karma in this channel over the last year (118 in all channels)
_sisoma[d], duanin2 and [snarfed] joined the channel
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[artlung]
fingers crossed for the newsletter aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 34 karma in this channel over the last year (119 in all channels)
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[artlung]
is there anything you need from the community to support you on the newsletter?
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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aaronpk
not really, the indieweb list has only ~500 subscribers so it will stay on the free tier for a while
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[artlung]
Gotcha. Cool.
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aaronpk
i guess one option is for someone to make a new indieweb mailchimp account and migrate the list over, but that kind of thing is not fun
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
btrem joined the channel
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artlung.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+54860) "big change. imports all internet archive videos and reformats prior year by year videos into the same table"
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capjamesg
[artlung]++
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Loqi
[artlung] has 14 karma in this channel over the last year (72 in all channels)
[Murray] joined the channel
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[artlung]
I deeply dislike pages that look like they ought to be timely not being timely looking. https://indieweb.org/videos_about_the_indieweb
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artlung.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (-182) "remove the duplicate (hi capjamesg!)"
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[artlung]
sad that the dataset I downloaded didn't include length of the videos (it did have the filesize, lame)
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[artlung]
when i look at the youtube todo I'll do another pass
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www.nicksimson.com
edited /IndieWeb_Carnival (-4) "Nick changed his June 2025 topic from "personal style" to "Take Two""
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[tantek]
wow [artlung] that's an amazing presentation of all the session videos!
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[tantek]
only editorial concern I have, the "videos about the indieweb" were intended as higher level more introductory videos that a new person could come see and get a more general idea. e.g. talks to audiences of mostly folks *not* in the community. I'm not sure it's helpful to newcomers to mix in all the IndieWebCamp sessions which are in general very high-context and very often highly technical
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[tantek]
the worry is that a new person shows up, clicks on the "most recent video" which immediately gets deep into a specific indieweb discussion, and then they're lost because it's all IndieWeb community members having a very deep conversation
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[artlung]
that's what the featured 3 videos are no?
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[artlung]
but i hear you
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[tantek]
wdyt about splitting the "general" talks, like Manton's recent talk at EFF Austin (which was to an audience mostly not in the community), to top section, by year, and then having a separate section (or even page) for the full tables of IndieWebCamp Sessions?
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[tantek]
the folks that want to dig deep will certainly do so, and I think it would help to avoid having new folks "bounce" because they get overwhelmed or intimidated by a very technical talk on Webmention or Micropub etc.?
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[artlung]
separate page, or lower on the page?
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[tantek]
most of the tables are the IWC sessions right? I think there's enough sessions videos now to justify a separate page
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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[tantek]
we can also make case-by-case exceptions, like the "Intros and personal site demos" at IndieWebCamps are usually very accessible to a broader audience so maybe those are worth including? they also tend to show a very human side of the community and how diverse IndieWeb sites can be which can make people feel more included
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[tantek]
... worth including *on the main "videos about the indieweb" page
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[tantek]
re: the featured videos. to your point [artlung], I agree with "dislike pages that look like they ought to be timely not being timely looking". I think we should figure out some criteria for updating the featured videos to enable more people to add to them. like maybe we consider Manton's talk? or if someone reviews a recent personal site demos session from an IWC and finds it particularly welcoming, we could include that? just some ideas
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[tantek]
I hear you on the lack of durations frustration. It was a manual effort to add them into the IWC schedule pages and the "Play" link at the top of all the individual session pages
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[tantek]
those durations are inside a template on the schedule pages and play links, a template which also contains the Internet Archive URL for the video so presumably there's some way to search the wiki for an Internet Archive URL, then look for the template it's inside, then extract the duration from that template? not sure how hard that is
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[tantek]
aaronpk, we really need some way to remove non-topical posts from IndieNews
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[tantek]
e.g. "Revisiting LLMs for Code Development" has nothing to do with IndieWeb, and I'd really not like to see us promoting that in particular. I believe it is damaging to the reputation of the community
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artlung.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb () "(-51774) use the tabular output for legacy videos"
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artlung.com
created /Videos_Hosted_By_Internet_Archive (+52414) "extracted video data from internet archive as of 30 may 2025"
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artlung.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+40) "/* Featured videos */"
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artlung.com
edited /Videos_Hosted_By_Internet_Archive (+137) "links back to main page of videos"
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aaronpk
i can delete for now
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aaronpk
if someone wants to work on a PR to indienews to add the management capability i would be very happy
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[artlung]
[tantek] moved the videos around. I wrote code to do the output of all this because hoo boy lots of data. put it in a big messy gist. https://gist.github.com/artlung/91990f51e291c38491f38fa4ff795b18
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[artlung]
not because i think it's good but in case somebody wants to take a stab. the twig file might be the one okay bit.
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btrem
aaronpk: how should it work? Do you want a post to be deletable via webmention? Maybe it should have some minimum number of delete requests?
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artlung.com
edited /Videos_Hosted_By_Internet_Archive (+73) "definitionize opening sentence and links"
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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capjamesg
What is Subscribe Openly?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Subscribe Openly" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Subscribe Openly is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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capjamesg
Subscribe Openly is a site that creates a page with direct links to subscribe to a web feed in various popular feed readers like [[NetNewsWire]] and [[Feedly]], maintained by {{capjamesg}}.
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loqi.me
created /Subscribe_Openly (+216) "prompted by capjamesg and dfn added by capjamesg"
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jamesg.blog
edited /Subscribe_Openly (+50) "add link, add category"
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[tantek]
aaronpk, one IndieNews fix for the newsletter could be to only pull articles that have at least one bookmark of them syndicated to IndieNews
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[tantek]
that way, when we see an IndieNews article pop-up in the main #indieweb channel, someone has to actually go bookmark it for it to show up in the newsletter
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[tantek]
and of course the bookmark should come from a different domain than the article itself 🙂
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[tantek]
artlung looks good!
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[tantek]
wait what is happening with 2020 and 2017 being listed out of order in both pages? How is that happening?
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aaronpk
i used to have that feature in indienews, but nobody used it
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aaronpk
syndicating bookmarks was pretty advanced
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[tantek]
interesting
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[tantek]
[artlung] "Videos Hosted By Internet Archive" reminds of Netflix big lists of shows for each season/year. it's amazing
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[tantek]
that 2019 season was HUGE! 😂
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aaronpk
the way i was imagining a quick version of this working is news.indieweb.org can already know if you're logged in because it's on *.indieweb.org, so if you're logged in, you can click "delete" or something, and it would take 2 different people deleting a post to remove it
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[tantek]
ooh that also makes sense
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aaronpk
suggestions welcome for the text of the button
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[tantek]
would that tombstone the URL so it couldn't show up if the publisher sent another (repeat) webmention?
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aaronpk
yeah, it'd mark it as deleted in the DB so it wouldn't be re-added with a new webmention
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[tantek]
aaronpk, I think there's a diferrence between, ew yuck someone syndicated something nasty, must delete ASAP, and someone syndicated something off-topic
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[tantek]
kinda surprised we haven't seen more spam on indienews tbh
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aaronpk
true, but then it gets in to the question of who is allowed to immediately delete something, and also should there be an undo
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[tantek]
also what happens when someone just spams every post they make? would want to block a whole domain?
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aaronpk
right now, only I can actually delete something, and there is no undo 😂
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[tantek]
aaronpk, I agree with your "takes 2 different people to moderate" idea
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aaronpk
anyway there's lots of interesting things we _could_ do, but I would like to more quickly solve the immediate problem
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[tantek]
would make sense to apply that to both deletes and offtopic labels
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[tantek]
maybe we start with "delete" because that roughly solves more use cases sooner?
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artlung.com
edited /planet (+94) "archive offline planets"
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aaronpk
yeah, I am on board with a "delete" feature that takes 2 people to delete a post
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[artlung]
oh whoa. sort issue thanks for heads up hopefully I can find it heh
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[artlung]
what are videos about the indieweb ?
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Loqi
📺 Videos about the indieweb are a great way to get a quick visual introduction to what is the Indie Web, why we need it, and how you can make a difference for yourself, and others https://indieweb.org/videos_about_the_indieweb
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[artlung]
what are videos hosted by internet archive?
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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gRegor
Github issue and link to past discussion on indienews moderation: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/issues/58
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Loqi
[preview] [aaronpk] #58 Create admin UI to remove posts
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gRegor
I might be able to take a look this weekend
barnaby joined the channel
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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[tantek]
wow old pages long before used dfns and Loqi for what is!
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gRegor
Yep, mainly cleaning up dupe categories, adding dfns while in there
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gRegor
There's some redlinks for people who don't have user pages, like Chris Messina. Should I remove those?
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gRegor
Glenn has a User: page so changed it to that
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[tantek]
I'd say not to bother, leaving such things as is for historical pages is fine I think
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[tantek]
we have much more recent pages more worthy (and needing) of gardening 🙂
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[tantek]
lots of See Also collections
barnaby joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
edited /Ward_Cunningham (-47) "r to User: page"
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
btrem1 joined the channel
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artlung.com
created /Videos_Hosted_By_YouTube (+32689) "while I'm on a video tear, here are the YouTube videos"
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artlung.com
edited /Videos_Hosted_By_YouTube (+406) "table cells for times"
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artlung.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+32) "adding YouTube link internally"
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gRegorLove_ joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
edited /IndieWebCamps (+91) "link to newer categories for each camp, preparing to remove now-empty Category:Session Notes, which was only used for /2011"
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gregorlove.com
deleted /Category:Session_Notes "Empty Content: 2011 sessions all in newer categories, this was now empty and nothing linked to it. content was: "Here's the set of all Session Notes from the [[2011/Schedule]].""
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gregorlove.com
deleted /Category:Session_List "Empty Content: session pages in newer categories, this was empty and nothing linked to it. content was: "Session lists from IndieWebCamp [[events]] This category seems to have been superceded in subsequent years by <nowiki>[[Category:Sessions]]</nowiki>. See that category here: [https://indieweb.org/Category:Sessions Category:Sessions]""
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
[benji] joined the channel
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btrem
aaronpk: maybe indienews should have some sort of gatekeeping. A submission is just that, a submission, until an editor approves it. Perhaps by bookmarking it?
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btrem
There could be any number of editors.
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btrem
Bookmarks would have to be in an approved list. Maybe vouch could be used? I don't know much about vouch, so maybe it was not adopted widely enough to be useful here?
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[tantek]
!tell GWG can you fix the description on https://archive.org/details/possepractices-indiewebcamp-nuremberg-2023 ? it errantly links to linkrot (copypasta likely) and the downstream impact is the downstream duplication of "linkrot" in the rightmost column in the table in this section: https://indieweb.org/Videos_Hosted_By_Internet_Archive#2023
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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btrem
Sorry, that last comment was unclear. I meant to say, "bookmarks would have to come from an approved list of domains...."
balintm joined the channel
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[tantek]
!tell [artlung] the date columns in the tables in different years are different widths and that's a bit jarring when scrolling. would be great to make the date columns the same width (and since they have known semi-fixed width content, should be possible to pick an em width that works for all YYYY-MM-DD)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor
I think a two-person approval from a voiced account here in chat should work on indienews. That's how we used to retweet things from the @indiewebcamp account back in the day
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gregorlove.com
edited /Category:IndieWebCamp_Portland_2014 (+65) "update dfn, three cities at once in 2014"
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btrem
gRegor: so have it approved in chat, instead of using bookmarks?
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gRegor
That's an option, or two signed in people on *.indieweb.org clicking a button on indienews
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[tantek]
another method is approved via site UI (which you login to via IndieAuth)
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gRegor
jinx :)
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[tantek]
hah, gRegor beat me to it 🙂
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gRegor
I think two bookmarks might be tricky, not everyone set up to post those
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gRegor
Also nothing personal against anyone, but not sure I'd want to be posting those on my site, haha, even if unlisted
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[tantek]
I think a single bookmark post is a good starting point for that kind of "approval"
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[tantek]
and two +1s via UI directly on the site
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btrem
Yeah, ok. I don't really understand the "signed in people on *.indieweb.org" thing, I was just spitballing. I guess I was thinking if you're an "editor" you could maybe implement it.
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gRegor
It's similar to events.indieweb.org. If you're signed in you can add and edit events
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gRegor
Should "just work" if you're signed in to the wiki
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btrem
gRegor: regarding "nothing personal comment" :-D
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btrem
I'm not qualified, but if I were an editor, I'd probably have a separate place to approve posts. Maybe a subdomain? Because I might not want to post bookmarks on my site.
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gregorlove.com
moved /Category:IndieWebCamp_Portland_2014 to /Category:IndieWebCamp_2014 "rename since distributed camp across three cities"
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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gRegor
https://indieweb.org/Category:2014 is cleaned up, sessions each categorized by camp now
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aaronpk
wow gRegor++
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Loqi
gRegor has 34 karma in this channel over the last year (97 in all channels)
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Loqi
GWG: [tantek] left you a message 34 minutes ago: can you fix the description on https://archive.org/details/possepractices-indiewebcamp-nuremberg-2023 ? it errantly links to linkrot (copypasta likely) and the downstream impact is the downstream duplication of "linkrot" in the rightmost column in the table in this section: https://indieweb.org/Videos_Hosted_By_Internet_Archive#2023
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GWG
[tantek]: Fixed
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Loqi
Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
barnaby joined the channel
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Loqi
Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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tantek.com
edited /Videos_Hosted_By_Internet_Archive (-3) "/* 2023 */ propagate copypasta description fix from IA video page to summary in table"
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balintm joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+282) "add 2025 with Manton's talk at EFF Austin Meetup"
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[tantek]
^ scratched that itch of having at least *one* 2025 video near the top of the "videos about the indieweb" page, inspired by [artlung]
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[tantek]
!tell [artlung] same presentational concern on https://indieweb.org/videos_about_the_indieweb of varying widths of the first column (date) across the tables for different years
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-05-30.html
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[tantek]
Looking good! Great work everyone!
barnaby and balintm joined the channel
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[tantek]
Woohoo! Got the newsletter email! Thanks aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 35 karma in this channel over the last year (120 in all channels)
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Loqi
😄
sp1ff` joined the channel