#microformats 2012-12-01

2012-12-01 UTC
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tantek greetings gjones
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tantek I'm not sure I understand this thread: https://github.com/microformats/tests/issues/1
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tantek the intent of microformats2 parsing as to always produce strings for each property
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gjones Thats what I thought, a lot of the v1 parsers validated properties based on a pre knowledge of data type. That's no longer the case as v2 are generic parsers
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tantek right
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tantek also - there's not a precise mapping to language-specific data types anyway
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tantek e.g. time element, microformats2 allow for more coarse time values, e.g. year, month, month and day (but no year)
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tantek which are representable using ISO8601 strings, but not in native datetime structures
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tantek e.g. I don't think it is possible to represent those with PHP DateTime objects for example
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tantek so if we have a test like: <span class="h-card"><span class="p-name">Alice Brown</span>, birthday: <time class="dt-bday" datetime="--12-31">31 December</time></span>, then all we can test for are matching canonical ISO8601 strings - not any kind of PHP or JS datetime object.
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gjones Data and structure validation may still be interesting to help users test their mark-up (ufLint), but its no longer core to the parsers. 
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tantek yes - exactly
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tantek useful for validators / validation services
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tantek which can be built on top of parsers
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tantek validators can test all kinds of other things too
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tantek vocabulary specific things
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tantek e.g. making sure that any dt-end is *after* a dt-start
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tantek etc.
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gjones So in a PHP or C# parser we may have two representations native in strongly types structures and JSON which is just string and is common across all parsers and which we build the test on
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tantek there's no native strongly typed representation of "--12-31" in PHP or C#
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tantek that's what I'm trying to explain - what microformats (and HTML5) considers date and time is a *superset* of what strongly typed native language structures do.
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tantek and thus exceed what native strongly typed representations can do
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tantek thus you can't depend on native strongly typed representations
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gjones If I rebuilt ufxtract .net developers would want native object structures for data, if they interfaced with it directly. I built ISODate class Geo Class etc so they had less work to do.
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tantek ah ok - *new* native classes then, not built-in.
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gjones Take a look at the Geo class in ufxtract https://github.com/glennjones/UfXtract/blob/master/ufXtract/Utilities/Geo.cs
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tantek ok, cool. as long as these are utilities classes I think that works great
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gjones Maybe I should make a second library that took the JSON and converted into more usable native objects. Keep it away from the parser
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tantek right
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tantek that would make more sense - keep the parser simpler, more minimal
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tantek we should specify things like whitespace normalization, but not much more.
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Loqi I agree
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tantek thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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tantek (???)
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tantek nothing strongly typed - with the exception of the datetime parsing needed to make the value class pattern work
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gjones This is approach make a lot sense to me. Just wanted to make sure before I went to far I think it will mean some changes for Barnaby
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gjones Also I think that means I can drop the asserts from the test.
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gjones Ok second point do we need to use *-x-* i.e. p-x-result on experimental properties if its already on the root i.e. h-x-test-fixture
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gjones *-x-* on lots of properties can be visual very heavy to read example in https://github.com/microformats/tests/blob/master/h-card.html
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tommorris gjones: in the project I'm working on, I'm sticking a p-x-type on hCards. Basically, it's a simple text description of the type of place something is, like "government building", "library", "Buddhist temple", "gay bar", "bank" etc.
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tantek tommorris - "type" is a horrible name for anything ;)
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tantek overloaded to the point of meaninglessness
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tantek gjones - a root class name does not scope the properties used within
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tommorris yeah. tell me about it. especially if you happpen to be using a statically typed programming language. ;-)
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tantek all properties mean the same thing across all microformats
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tantek a p-name inside an h-card means the same thing as a p-name inside an h-event
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tommorris might switch it to p-x-venue-type or something like that
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tantek so you can't "just use it on the root"
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tommorris or p-x-venue-description
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tantek venue-category even
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tantek since what it sounds like you're talking about is a taxonomy of venues
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tantek and 'category' typically implies explicit taxonomy (perhaps by the author)
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tommorris yeah, and I may be able to match those up with some well-known external vocabulary like Wikipedia ;-)
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tantek in contrast to folksonomic 'tags'
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tantek e.g. Foursquare calls them "categories"
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tantek e.g. https://foursquare.com/v/four-barrel-coffee/480d1a5ef964a520284f1fe3
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tantek from their explicit hierarchical taxonomy:
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tantek Categories
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tantek Categories help describe what type of place this is
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tantek + Coffee Shop
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tantek X
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tantek primary category
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tantek + Bakery
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tantek X
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tantek set as primary
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tantek + Donut Shop
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tantek X
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tantek set as primary
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tantek and then in addition to that, they *also* have tags - for users to contribute any string labels they want
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tantek e.g.
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tantek Tags
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tantek Use tags to let people know what they can expect here:
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tantek + good_mark
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tantek + espresso
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tantek + mopeds
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tantek + donuts
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tantek + smug
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tantek + cute boy baristas
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gjones OK, I can see the bigger picture for always using the *-x-* on experimental properties.
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tantek etc....
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tantek gjones, because property names are unscoped
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tantek but if you can re-use existing property names from other microformats, that's even better
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gjones Its going to be interesting to see how many people start adding them to h-card etc - reinvent the wheel could be an issue
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gjones I will put a pointer in the github issue thread to this
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gjones I am sure there will be more questions along the way, I will try bring them up here
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tantek thanks gjones
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tantek if it's possible to simplify the questions to like 1-2 sentences each at most, we can add them to a microformats2-parser-faq
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tantek the thread on github was too essay-like to follow what was really going on - what were statements vs. questions formed as statements
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tantek hence I needed to ask in IRC with short statements back/forth
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tantek anyway maybe I was the only one confused by the github thread. tweet-like brief self-contained specific questions are easier to answer.
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tantek thanks
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gjones Will try and keep that in mind, the github was a bit to much of mind dump, but helped me frame some of design issues for uf2 parsing. Short questions from now on :)
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tantek awesome - feel free to use for minddumps too - they're just harder to follow-up on
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tantek sometimes a minddump can help with formulating a simpler question
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tantek it's actually why I prefer wikis to threads like that
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tantek wiki minddumps can be edited, iterated until they're more and more readable
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tantek whereas threads (whether email, forum, or github issues) are designed to preserve minddumps are primary content rather than just historical reference.
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tantek ok, thanks for clarifying the questions gjones
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tantek I hope we covered enough to answer the questions from that github issue thread.
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tantek I'm going to head to bed unless there's anything else for now.
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doloresxkiubfgidjflaharty created /Recommendations_In_Buying_Cialis_Online7871748 (+3216) "New page: Within the health care industry, the word they generally utilize is Tadalafil. Yet, in stores, it is commonly referred to as Cialis which is the drug of preference for erectile dysfunction..." (view diff)
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ebruesgin edited /hrecipe (+120) "/* Examples in the wild */" (view diff)
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tantek edited /hrecipe (-120) "yemektarifinet is a recipe but lacks hRecipe markup. please add it! Undo revision 49085 by [[Special:Contributions/Ebruesgin|Ebruesgin]] ([[User talk:Ebruesgin|Talk]])" (view diff)
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tommorris edited /geo-examples-in-wild (+257) "so, there's this little website called OpenStreetMap that has 1.7 billion geo microformats. pretty cool." (view diff)
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nhidbf199 created /User:nhidbf199 (+3614) "Meg tells me you are wanting a room" (view diff)
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tantek whoa that's awesome Tom Morris, just saw your wiki edit
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tantek 1.7 billion nodes with geo?!?
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tantek wow
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tantek you'll have to let me know how many named venues you find
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tantek in looking at http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1789070056 - it looks like the "designation" comma delimited list could be marked "category" for each item, and shop could be a "category" as well