#microformats 2012-12-02

2012-12-02 UTC
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tommorris tantek: I can tell you how many named objects there are.
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tommorris tantek: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/ says the name tag is on 32.8 million objects
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tommorris named nodes which are more likely to fit the hcard semantics are 7.52 million
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tantek a-ha, great
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tantek happy to help figure out the markup too
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tommorris I'm gonna have a go at doing a mixture of microformats and RDFa.
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tantek we may want to consider some "proprietary" properties to reflect the OSM-specific fields
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tantek in uf2, you can do that e.g. p-orgprefix-propertyname
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tantek e.g. p-osm-designation
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tantek p-osm-shop
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tantek *in addition* to marking those as categories
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tommorris so, the wikipedia links, for instance, can easily be mapped to both hCard's url property and do some linked data sameAs magic to dbpedia
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tommorris if I can work out a sane and not-too-disruptive way of adding hCard, I'll have a crack at it tomorrow. certainly, it'd make sense for node venues
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tantek I'd be curious to know what functionality RDFa would add in addition to the uf2 markup - or if it's just to be multimarkup supportive and all that.
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tommorris https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/173
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tommorris that is just replicating in RDFa what is there in the geo uf.
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tommorris there are plenty of properties where there are existing places that can be linked to.
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tantek ok cool - just supporting multiple markups then
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tantek if you do run across functionality in RDFa in real world examples like OSM that you can't do with uf2, I'd be very interested to hear about it.
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tommorris well, there are plenty of OSM properties that are basically pointers to other datasets. the linked data toolset works pretty well for those
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tantek I guess what I don't get about that is, isn't that just URLs?
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tantek like just saying this is a URL for this thing
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tommorris sure.
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tantek still doesn't get the utility of "linked" data per se
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tommorris simple merging.
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tantek ok, so as long as you can just specify the "url" property, you're good
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tommorris so, a really quite fucked-up use case is there are sometimes government datasets that use some kind of unique identifier that doesn't match up to a URI. being able to express the semantics of that (that it is, say, an inverse functional property and all that kind of stuff) means you can do some sanity checking on it at a later date.
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tommorris (and, yes, "it lets you describe other people's shitty data better" is hardly the most compelling use cases for upper-case SemWeb)
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tommorris also, an interesting issue: have we yet worked out how to do multi-lingual microformats?
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tantek what's the real world example you're trying to mark up?
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tantek don't all unique identifiers match up to a URI with some made-up scheme?
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tommorris <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality" lang="fr">Bruxelles</a> (<span class="p-locality" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</div>
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tantek that looks right
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tommorris even more important for non-Latin scripts:
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tantek would result in an "h-adr" item with two values for the p-locality property
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tommorris <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality" lang="he">חֵיפָה</span> (<span class="p-locality" lang="en">Haifa</span>)</div>
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tantek so as far as markup recipes go - that looks correct
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tantek the question is what (if anything) we should specify at the parser level for handling "lang" attributes
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tommorris should the uf2-to-json process care about that?
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tantek currently it doesn't
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tommorris that probably needs speccing out
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tommorris but before that, I should probably get sleep.
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tantek the other challenge is that the markup doesn't make it clear if those are two equivalent values, or two different values
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tantek by default each property value is considered as its own value
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tantek for that kind of example we need something more like an alternatives list
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tantek that might just be a simple translation microformat
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tantek wonders if it would be unreasonable to create a property for each language code
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tantek just *one* per language code, not an nxm matrix
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tantek obv
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tommorris oh, so like p-locality-he p-locality-en
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tantek no, precisely *not* that
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tantek but rather
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tantek something like <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality h-alts"><span class="p-a-fr" lang="fr"> Bruxelles</span> (<span class="p-a-en" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</span></div>
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tantek to make the collection of alternates explicit
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tantek rather than implicit
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tommorris Hmm. Something to mull over.
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tantek might use p-lang-fr rather than p-a-fr just because that's more "obvious" and easy to remember as a generic "here is a French language property"
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tantek e.g.
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tantek <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality h-alts"><span class="p-lang-fr" lang="fr"> Bruxelles</span> (<span class="p-lang-en" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</span></div>
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tantek whether you use uf2 or rdfa etc. you're still going to have that same challenge of explicitly indicating alternates for the same thing, instead of possibly just having a multivalued property where different values just happen to be different languages.
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tantek there's an important difference there
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tantek that becomes apparent when you start adding *multiple* values with the same language and different languages
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tommorris yeah, in RDF, you'd end up with numerous properties with each string having a language tag.
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tantek if you don't cluster the alternates that represent the same value, you have no idea of knowing what are alternates for what
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tantek that's not good enough
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tantek for exactly the reason I just outlined
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tantek we could do that too for p-lang-*
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tantek drop the *
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tantek e.g.
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tantek <div class="h-adr"><span class="p-locality h-alts"><span class="p-lang" lang="fr"> Bruxelles</span> (<span class="p-lang" lang="en">Brussels</span>)</span></div>
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tantek and make "p-lang" indicate that it should get the language from the 'lang' attribute
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tommorris so, in the RDF output for microformats2, I'm certainly interested in preserving the language attribute information. a consumer of the data could under some circumstances make a useful inference from it.
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tantek but the key here is that the "h-alts" grouping makes it clear that there is only *one* value, with multiple language expressions
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tommorris real world usage that prompted this: at a meetup.com-organised event in London this week, there was some Russian guy and his profile on meetup had a name in Russian script and the Latin script version elsewhere in the profile
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tantek that might be two whole different profiles then
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tantek that need to be rel-me'd together
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tantek if you bump things up to the page granularity, then the problem is solved
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tommorris for the purposes of indieweb stuff like the indieweb-autocomplete stuff barnaby is working on, you should be able to type in either and match them. (facebook, incidentally, now let you type in a word like "mom" or "boyfriend" into search and it takes you to the right person.)
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tantek wow
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tantek their (sustaining) pace of innovation is impressive
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tantek presumably, for the indieweb-autocomplete stuff, it should just auto-match *any* profile it knows about, regardless of the language of the profile
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tantek so that should just automatically work if each profile is on its own page
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tantek each language profile
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tommorris yeah. anyway, must sleep. early start then a day trying to hack microformats and RDFa into openstreetmap.
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tantek great
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tantek I'll try be on here to help early tomorrow morning my time then
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@equivalentideas #microformats there seems to be a problem with downloading the #hcard via @h2vx in #IOS6 @t
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@unkariert @skraegelin besonders die hCard Geschichte hats mir angetan!
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@FreeWSOdownload Free download: WSO - WP Author hReview (Plugin) http://www.freewso.info/wp-author-hreview-plugin/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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tantek tommorris, how's the OSM hacking going?
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tommorris tantek: well, one of the guys here has been working on dramatically speeding up the query process.
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tommorris tantek: and I've been working out the best way to map OSM data on to microformats and RDF
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tantek cool
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tantek let me know if I can be of any assistance
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tantek the node/venue pages you showed me looked pretty straightforward to markup
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tommorris I may have a crack at fixing the indieauth login to allow OpenStreetMap OAuth as an option. it'd then be the first IndieAuth provider that is on a site that is controlled by a charitable foundation rather than a Silicon Valley company.
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tantek that would be awesome!
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tommorris well, I'm going to propose that the profile pages - e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Tom%20Morris - start being able to have a homepage and a rel=me
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tantek yes, ideally we should have IndieOAuth - Oauth on our own sites, rather than delegating to some other company for it
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tantek but it's a useful stopgap and fallback
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tantek oh interesting, profile pages on OSM
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tantek right, where is the "my website is:" field? ;)
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tommorris there isn't one, that's why I'm gonna propose one
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tommorris should really discuss indieauth in #indiewebcamp
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tantek right
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tantek tommorris - did you get a patch submitted for adding hCard to OSM venues?
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tantek welcome back barnabywalters
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tantek had a good chat with glenn (gjones) the other day about that one test suite issue
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barnabywalters evening tantek
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barnabywalters oh, the experimental property prefixes?
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tantek yeah, that and more
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tantek that github issue was really confusing
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tantek it wasn't really one issue - it was more of a conversation thread about multiple questions, and I couldn't even follow what was a question and what was a suggestion
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barnabywalters yeah, it was a bit all over the place
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tantek so that's an email thread, not a github issue :P
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tantek ah, here's the chat Glenn and I had: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20121201#l-51
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barnabywalters reads
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tantek moved / to /Special:Log/move "[[test-suite]] moved to [[test-suite-2009]]: Pretty much everything here is dated as of 2009, and it makes more sense to start from scratch with a new [[test-suite]] page for [[microformats2]] for 2012."
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barnabywalters heh, loqi is behaving really weirdly recently1
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barnabywalters !
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barnabywalters okay, prefixing everything experimental with -x- now makes sense
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barnabywalters so the typing issue is a little more awkward
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barnabywalters because the parser removes the prefix of the class when parsing
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barnabywalters so returning strings makes everything more simple on the parser side, but could make understanding the parsed structure more tricky
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barnabywalters my other semi-issue with having the parser not understand the types involved is value-class split datetimes
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barnabywalters e.g. given something like this:
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barnabywalters (from µf wiki)
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barnabywalters <span class="dt-start">
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barnabywalters <abbr class="value" title="2008-06-24">this Tuesday</abbr>
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barnabywalters at <span class="value">18:30</span>
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barnabywalters </span>
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barnabywalters how should the parser behave without understanding the types involved?
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tantek right, that's the only case where the parser *does* need to do type-specific parsing, and then combine the result back into a string
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tantek note: prefixes != types. that's a semi-common misconception.
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tantek prefixes are merely cues for different parsing algorithms
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tantek which *happen* to *sometimes* overlap with some variances in typing
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barnabywalters so apart from date vagueness, what is the advantage of returning strings over native objects if conversion to native objects is required in order to do the parsing in the first place?
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tantek edited /test-suite (+1048) "stub from scratch for 2012 with some borrowed prose from before" (view diff)
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tantek edited /test-suite-2009 (+140) "update header warning" (view diff)
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tantek so first, there's nothing vague about the broader set of dates/times/durations that <time> and microformats allow - each is actually very specifically defined. it's not vague, the same way that 12:00 isn't vague just because it omits seconds and milliseconds.
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tantek second, whether or not you use native objects to parse the value class pattern is an implementation detail. it's certainly not required by the value class pattern spec or parsing algorithms
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barnabywalters so is there a technical term for those non-moment times?
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tantek always returning strings for every property greatly simplifies the JSON format that is shared
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tantek what is a "moment time"?
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tantek still not sure what you mean
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tantek is there a term for time without milliseconds?
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tantek do we need such terms?
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tantek some of them have prose descriptive names, though I wouldn't call them "technical terms"
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barnabywalters no, I’m referring to the whole "2012-12-20 15:25" is different to "2012-12-20 15:25:00 0000" thing
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tantek it's also different with/without timezone
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tantek and with/without seconds
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tantek etc.
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barnabywalters where the first time represents the entire minute, the second represents a particular moment
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tantek those are both iso8601 datetimes
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tantek no the trailing " 0000" is invalid
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tantek is it a timezone? is it milliseconds?
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barnabywalters that was supposed to refer to milliseconds, I forgot the official syntax
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tantek why is a millisecond a "moment" instead of a second? why not nanosecond then?
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barnabywalters I am not expressing this well.
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tantek the best I've seen to describe such details is YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS vs. YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS.ssss
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tantek there are no technical prose expressions for those that I know of
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tantek I often use "isodate" to mean YYYY-MM-DD
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barnabywalters my point is, most software datetime libraries assume each datetime object refers to a particular moment in time, and there is no way of expressing "a week" or "a minute" or "a second"
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tantek and isodatetime to mean YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM (with optional :SS seconds and/or Z/+/-TZ)
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barnabywalters which I believe in the HTML5 <time> spec there is
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tantek software datetime libraries are horribly inconsistent when it comes to such edges
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barnabywalters tommorris tweeted about this recently, perhaps he can express it better
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tantek and no, they don't refer to moments, they often either refer to seconds or milliseconds
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tantek e.g. epoch seconds is often supported in software libraries
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barnabywalters okay, practical example in PHP:
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barnabywalters var_dump(new DateTime('2012-01-01T00:00:00') == new DateTime('2012-01-01'));
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tantek the point is, to do date time parsing properly and handle real world use cases (which all went into the design of the HTML5 <time> element, almost all from microformats), you have to write your own date time zone etc. parsing code.
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barnabywalters evaluates to true
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tantek that's just because PHP assumes 00:00:00
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tantek can't make that assumption across libraries / languages
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tantek PHP treating a particular day as the same as a particular second could easily be claimed to be a bug
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tantek because they're not the same thing
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tantek existing language/library "support" of dates and times is sadly deficient, that's why I said you have to write your own date time zone etc. parsing code.
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tantek it's also why HTML5 specifies parsing algorithms for all of the different dates / times / durations - because all previous attempts have been sadly deficient / and/or taken bad shortcuts
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barnabywalters looks for HTML5s datetime parsing algorithms
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barnabywalters that is awkward
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barnabywalters still, I suppose ditching php DateTime and writing something based entirely round the value-class datetime spec would make things a bit more straightforward
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tantek and it would reflect actual content published by people on the web, rather than whatever legacy strings the PHP languages folks wanted to parse in the PHP DateTime object
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tantek there's no documentation on the research (if any) that was used to justify what PHP DateTime object parses and what it doesn't
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barnabywalters yes, the "this is the actual content the author authored" factor is a powerful one
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tantek for HTML5 <time>, we have: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time
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tantek exactly, we've got the research (SCIENCE!) to back it up
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tantek as opposed to hacks accreted upon hacks over time
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barnabywalters Created new issues for these in php-mf2: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/7 https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/8
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barnabywalters I could do with some help with these, if anyone’s interested
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tantek barnabywalters - and I could do with some help with this wiki page: http://microformats.org/wiki/test-suite
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tantek as your questions / issues are answered, mind adding them there?
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barnabywalters tantek: sure
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tantek edited /test-suite (+84) "stub FAQ" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - what's the issue with https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/7 ?
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tantek that's a statement, not an issue
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tantek did you just want me to write "Yes." and close it? ;)
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barnabywalters tantek: no that wouldn’t be very helpful ;)
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tantek oh sorry - just noticed the project name :)
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tantek (php-mf2 rather than test
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tantek )
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tantek was wondering where issues 2-6 went.
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tantek BTW, barnabywalters, all the am/pm variants are *particularly* helpful in parsing real world content publishing of times
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tantek (in the value class pattern dates and times section)
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barnabywalters yeah, I haven’t really pushed anything to the tests repo yet, apart from that comment. not really sure what I can do to help there
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barnabywalters tantek: yep, the list looks like it’ll be really easy to turn into a load of regexes to check for
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tantek great
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tantek yeah I think we have to wait for glenn to sort out the answers to the questions he went on about in the one issue
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tantek I'm still having trouble separating them out the specific questions, otherwise I'd add them here: http://microformats.org/wiki/test-suite#FAQ
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tantek can you help with that?
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barnabywalters I’ll have a go
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tantek at a minimum if you can break down and extract *one sentence* questions from https://github.com/microformats/tests/issues/1 that would be a big help
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tantek (and short sentences, not run-ons, certainly less than a tweet ;) )
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barnabywalters I have so far proved to be inept at that, but I will try :)
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barnabywalters the question about the -x- prefixes probably belongs elsewhere, in the microformats-2 page
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tantek could you state the question?
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barnabywalters "What is the correct way to start using experimental microformat and property names in µf2?"
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barnabywalters The root of the question in that issue seems to me to be "should parsers attempt to understand data types when parsing"
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tantek edited /validators (+46) "see also validator-brainstorming" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /test-suite (+426) "/* FAQ */ Added paraphrase of JSON vs parsed property comparison" (view diff)
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tommorris tantek: hCard for OSM venues may be a hard sell.
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tantek really? seems like an easy fit
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tantek why is that?
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tommorris tantek: the OSM community are rightfully rather conservative about what gets put on the website.
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tantek sure - that's one of the reasons we've minimized what markup you need to add to add microformats
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tantek microformats are the most conservative of the options as compared to RDFa or microdata for example
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tommorris no, it isn't that. it's more that the mapping of OSM tags to the semantics of microformats (or microdata or RDFa etc.) isn't necessarily something they want in the core code
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tantek and microformats2 makes that even *more* conservative (less makrup)
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tommorris because of loose coupling.
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tantek but they've already got geo, somehow that was acceptable?
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tommorris so, the OSM website tries hard to not make assumptions about the tags used. there's only a few hard-coded tag.
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tommorris well, geo is kind of rather a primitive one
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tantek right, so is name, and url
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tommorris you can't have nodes in a GIS database without geo.
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tantek and for starters, name, url, geo are sufficient for useful hCards
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tommorris I mean, it may be possible, but it won't be a five minute patch, it'll require a bit of thinking
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tantek really?
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tantek show me the file
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tantek or is this drupal-like where 20+ files all combine to create bits and pieces of one web page?
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tantek (a horrible development practice IMHO)
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tommorris yup, but that's not that big of an issue
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tommorris it's that the OSM community has a certain feeling about the "freedom to tag as you like"
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tommorris so, for instance, there was a big debate back in the day over postal_code vs. postcode
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tantek sure that's fine, and for OSMXML they should make up whatever tags they want :)
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tommorris it's very cowpath-pavey. so, when basically canonicalizing a set of OSM->microformats (or RDF or whatever) mappings, you need to basically do it in a way the community can change later without being programmers
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tantek so let's just start with hCards with url, geo, name then
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tantek and postpone figuring out address-compat for later
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tommorris yup, that's what I will probably do.
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tantek this is an important constraint: "do it in a way the community can change later without being programmers"
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tantek and very useful to keep in mind
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tommorris so, would something like this: <div class="h-card p-name">Market Street</div> be valid? ;-)
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tantek for that matter then, you could markup all the OSM specific properties with p-osm-whatevertag
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tantek where whatevertag is their thing
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barnabywalters tommorris: you can even leave out the p-name in that one
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tantek tommorris - no that's bad because then the geo won't get included
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tommorris barnabywalters: was more thinking in terms of the semantics of what an hCard is.
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tantek you need the hCard somewhere higher up
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tommorris tantek: the geo would be included later on
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tantek heck, put it on body
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tantek if there happens to be a name
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davidwysiqgjltbscali created /Postcard_Printing_-_Chopping_Costs,_Obtaining_Low-cost_Residence_Cellphone_Solutions_Thru_VOIP_(Part_one) (+19846) "New page: The use of postcards has risen tremendously over the previous couple of a long time. They are no for a longer time used for personal use but advertising and marketing as properly. Even so,..." (view diff)
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tommorris I'm asking a more Pedantic Web question: would a street be a valid hCard?
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:DavidwysiqgjltbScali]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek deleted /Postcard_Printing_-_Chopping_Costs,_Obtaining_Low-cost_Residence_Cellphone_Solutions_Thru_VOIP_(Part_one) "content was spam"
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tommorris or an unnamed park bench?
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tantek tommorris - no I think those would not be things you put in your address book / contacts list.
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tantek though there may be exceptions
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tantek e.g. Bourbon Street
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tantek Wall Street
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tommorris so, there is already a process for specifying some loosely coupled tag rules.
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tommorris I've just got to figure it out
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tommorris I know the Wikipedia links have some special magic, for instance.
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tantek the point with the "p-osm-*" properties is that now that we have a way of doing vendor/site specific properties in microformats2, we might as well use it.
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barnabywalters would using the -osm- prefix on the root class get around the "not everything OSM has is an h-card" issue?
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tommorris so, <div class="h-card h-osm-node">…</div>
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tantek well it wouldn't get around it
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tantek it would just give you another object
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tantek the hard part is to somehow only put hCards on things with names that are venues
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tantek rather than just streets
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tantek e.g. I'd say if you can check into it (per indieweb.com/checkin ) then it's a venue and it likely makes sense as an hCard
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tantek can you check into a street? no.
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tantek can you check into an unamed park bench? no.
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tommorris people do. street carnivals. pride parades. ;-)
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barnabywalters can you check into a named park bench?
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tantek I've checked into named drinking fountains (e.g. during a run in the park)
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tantek yes, you could check into a named park bench, because you could certainly create it as a venue (e.g. in foursquare)
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ddeniz created /tayt_modelleri (+768) "New page: 2012-2013 Bayan tayt modelleri Son 10 yılda bayanlar tarafından sıkça kullanılan bayan '''tayt modelleri''', özellikle 2012 yılında kadınların ilgi odağı olmaya baÅŸladı. Her..." (view diff)
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Ddeniz]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tommorris that's why it's a bit more complicated than just rolling it out: I need to hack together some way of allowing the community to self-describe the relation between OSM tags and microformats
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tantek deleted /tayt_modelleri "content was spam"
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barnabywalters when I map park benches on OSM I always give them a name :)
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tantek also, people do check into neighborhoods / intersection
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tommorris and, as with all such communities, sell the participants on the idea.
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tantek e.g. https://foursquare.com/v/haightashbury/4aaa7f6df964a520375620e3
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tommorris I could see people checking in to, say, "Tottenham Court Road" in London, because they may wish to signal to the world that they are flitting between shops on said street.
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tantek note that it has an hCard :D
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tantek right tommorris
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tantek however I think the semantic that those people are expressing is a particular meaning of "the area around Tottenham Court Road" rather than "anywhere on a street named Tottenham Court Road"
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tommorris yup
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tantek edited /microformats2-faq (+1578) "How do you use experimental microformats and property names" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters, well that's one FAQ answered: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-faq#how_do_you_use_experimental_microformats_and_property_names
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barnabywalters hurrah!
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tantek created /validator-brainstorming (+682) "stub with a few ideas from IRC" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - I started this page http://microformats.org/wiki/validator-brainstorming since you were suggesting some good ideas for what parsers *could* do that was really above and beyond what parsers *should* do.
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tantek however, all your ideas were excellent ideas for what a validator *could* do that was built on top of a parser.
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tantek please feel free to braindump there!
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barnabywalters by that you mean all the datetime interpreting stuff?
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tantek edited /validator-brainstorming (+147) "lat long" (view diff)
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tantek edited /validator-brainstorming (-1) "/* ... = */" (view diff)
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tantek edited /validator-brainstorming (+53) "=" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters and more
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tantek is attempting to parse that github issue once more
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tantek we should collect all that kind of validation-like features here: http://microformats.org/wiki/validator-brainstorming
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Loqi yea!
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tantek and then when building validation functionality, if it makes sense to put hooks into the parsers to get more info, then we can discuss that then
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barnabywalters that sounds like a much more robust solution
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barnabywalters and makes for more parser compatibility between languages and parsers
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barnabywalters e.g. a cassis validator function could be used with either PHP or JS parsers
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barnabywalters or (if I ever figured out how one could be made), a php+js parser
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tantek exactly!
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tantek yes it is totally doable
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tantek parsing is just string processing
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tantek which CASSIS already has a bunch of
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tantek just need to add more :)
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tantek !tell gjones I've wrapped up an answer on https://github.com/microformats/tests/issues/1 as best I could, please feel free to close it if you think the issues/questions have been answered, or preferably if there are outstanding issues/questions, please start a new github issue for each. Thanks! cc: barnabywalters
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek edited /test-suite (+237) "/* FAQ */ clarify that native language objects are sadly deficient at representing dates/times/durations as published on the real world web." (view diff)
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vanirradcilaclugar created /Believing_On_The_Different_HCG_Drops_Reviews3982594 (+3281) "New page: In the event that danger, 500 calories/day is a lower amount. Just compare it a concern . daily required amount of calories for a trustworthy person, it is truly well below generally ideal..." (view diff)
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@TMobileProvider Chamber Growth and The hCard! | Spotlight on US Local Micro ...
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@lopinsjk Non sono riuscito ad inserire il save on @foursquare button benché avessi una hcard nella pagina. Come andare a letto nervosi.
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carmelobppymshagnkeay created /studenten_zorgverzekering_top_59620235 (+165) "New page: collectiviteit zorgverzekering kortingen zorgverzekering [http://www.studentenzorg.org goedkoopste studenten zorgverzekering 2011] zorgverzekering voor hbo studenten" (view diff)