#microformats 2014-07-08

2014-07-08 UTC
Rastus_Vernon and gRegor` joined the channel
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bret say i have an html table… is there a microformat (or another tool) that lets me parse that table into json or csv or something?
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tantek bret - I believe you're looking for the DOM?
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tantek or the Table OM ?
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bret hrmmm maybe
robmorrissey, statonjr, gRegor`, tantek, JohnBeales, hongpong, brianloveswords, eschnou, shaners_, ChiefRA, pfefferle, chiui, RCheesley_, adactio, pfefferle_ and TallTed joined the channel
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tommorris oh wow. http://jsonresume.org/
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tommorris hey tantek - check out this bit of silliness. http://jsonresume.org/
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tantek tommorris - lol - perhaps add to microformats.org/wiki/resume-formats ? ;)
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tantek hey at least it's not humans.txt ;)
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tommorris I’m just writing a particularly gnarly bug report for them.
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tommorris Basically blasting them with all the issues around names they haven’t thought about.
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tantek tommorris - look they're on #jsonresume ;)
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tommorris tantek: https://github.com/jsonresume/resume-schema/issues/62 ;)
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tommorris oh, wow, they have an open issue for internationalisation - for countries where there are multiple official languages like Canada with en_CA and fr_CA
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tommorris if only there were some way of representing that in HTML
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tommorris oh, and their attempt at representing addresses is a complete mess too.
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tantek tommorris: it's like some college interns decided to do a summer project or something
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tommorris blimey. https://github.com/jsonresume/resume-schema/issues/4
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tantek tommorris - hahahaha they're renaming names of naming fields. yo dawg....
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tantek I heard you like renaming...
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tantek however, nice to see that other folks using hCard as a point of design in that issue
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tommorris as terrible standards go, this is definitely top 5 for me.
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tommorris number 1 is CWL: http://tommorris.org/posts/3364
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tantek tommorris: that URL for me "We're sorry, but something went wrong."
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tantek <title>We're sorry, but something went wrong (500)</title>
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tommorris Hmm, odd.
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tommorris Google Cache version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0z_Nkl8MUF0J:tommorris.org/posts/3364+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
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tommorris investigates.
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tommorris https://github.com/jsonresume/resume-schema/issues/19 is hilarious too.
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tantek tommorris - you must be bored
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tantek you could instead open an issue saying they should close their effort and "just" use h-resume
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tantek if they want a JSON version, just used the parsed output of mf2py or phpmf2
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tantek done and done
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tommorris tantek: can you hit refresh on that post of mine?
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tantek 400 Bad Request / nginx/1.4.6
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tantek 3rd refresh it worked
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tommorris odd.
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tantek funny that you remember such hilarity from 2008
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tantek this is definitely good for some LOLs: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/cwl/XGR-cwl/
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tantek "a unambiguous formal language playing the same role of natural languages for humans." - because so many natural languages have an unambiguous role. lol.
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tantek editors mostly from "Institute of Semantic Computing" - sounds legit.
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tommorris I wonder if I could break CWL by feeding it innuendo and double entendre.
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tantek or just rewrite the CWL spec in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_english
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tommorris tantek: all this sillness reminds me, need to find time to go through and make sure the microformats-2 versions of specs have as detailed examples as the original specs
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tommorris given people will want to copypasta them into their websites.
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tantek I tend to think of the examples priority as somewhat like:
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tantek 1. ultra minimal simple example - for someone to get how simple it can be
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tantek 2. fairly "complete" example that makes use of all (or as much sensibly as possible) of the features in a single example
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tantek 3. examples in between those based on real world use-cases
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tantek see http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card for 1 and 3 for example
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tantek and see http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard#Properties for an example of 2.
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tantek what do you think of those?
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tommorris I was generally impressed with most of the examples on the classic pages
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tantek I wasn't
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tantek (even though I tried to do a good job on them :/ )
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tantek trying to be more deliberate / methodical with h-* examples
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tommorris perhaps my bar for being impressed has been set very low by reading too many W3C specs. ;-)
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tantek yes
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tantek edited /web-sign-in (+429) "susequent sign-ins, input type=url" (view diff)
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jgarber Hello, all. A question about microformats-2 parsing rules. I'm using the <template> element which includes some h-entry class names: https://github.com/jgarber623/sixtwothree.org/blob/master/src/_layouts/post.html#L54-L66. By their nature, <template> elements are hidden and (particularly in my case) contain incomplete markup. Yet, microformats parsers include this in the output (see: http://news.indiewebcamp.com/parse
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jgarber ?source=http://sixtwothree.org/blog/now-accepting-webmentions/ ). Is this the desired behavior? Or, should parsers ignore content in <template> elements?
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jgarber That second link should be: http://news.indiewebcamp.com/parse?source=http://sixtwothree.org/blog/now-accepting-webmentions/
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tantek microformats parsers do not treat <template> in any special way
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tantek that is - it's like <span>
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tantek so what should happen?
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tantek and who supports <template> now?
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jgarber According to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/template#Browser_compatibility, Chrome, Firefox, and Opera natively.
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jgarber And with some polyfilling, reasonably modern IE and Safari.
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jgarber I think the desired behavior would be to ignore content within <template> tags given the likelihood that the markup within is incomplete (as in my use case).
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jgarber The spec on w3.org: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/scripting-1.html#the-template-element and whatwg.org: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html#the-template-element
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tantek so a "must ignore" then?
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tantek like comments?
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jgarber I believe so, yes.
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@JitendraBlogger Author hReview Plugin: Rich Snippets for WordPress http://www.bloggersideas.com/author-hreview-plugin-rich-snippets-for-wordpress/ via @jitendrablogger (twitter.com/_/status/486595638641958912)
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tommorris wonders what the hell <template> is for.
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tommorris these here HTML5 elements are popping up like crazy.
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jgarber tommorris It was new to me, too. According to MDN:
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jgarber The HTML template element <template> is a mechanism for holding client-side content that is not to be rendered when a page is loaded but may subsequently be instantiated during runtime using JavaScript. Think of a template as a content fragment that is being stored for subsequent use in the document. The parser does process the content of the <template> element during the page load to ensure that it is valid, however.
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jgarber It's a weird intersection of content and behavior and I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it. But... it's in the spec.
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tommorris Odd. I was looking for something similar recently, but that’s not it. ;-)
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KartikPrabhu why are people pushing templating into HTML?
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Hixie microformat parsers that parse HTML according to the HTML parsing rules shouldn't see the contents of <template> elements
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Hixie the microformat spec shouldn't need to mention them
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KartikPrabhu nods
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tommorris wonders what the HTML parsing rules are… this week. ;-)
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Hixie (stuff between <template> tags don't end up in the DOM)
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Hixie (they end up in a side document)
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Hixie tommorris: hey, we have them now. this is a significant step up from a few years ago.
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tommorris true dat.
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tantek Hixie, thanks for the clarification. I'll make an informative note to that extent then. Could be worth a test case.
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jgarber tantek: You could run http://sixtwothree.org/blog/now-accepting-webmentions/ through any of the existing parsers and observe an incomplete h-entry pulled from a <template> element.
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jgarber A lone example, for sure, though.
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tommorris tantek: definitely worth a test case, and given that a fair few parsers are probably simply using some kind of permissive-tagsoup parse rather than a full browser-style page parse, templates with microformats classes potentially could break them.
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tantek thanks jgarber - a lone example will suffice for now
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jgarber Sure thing! Happy to help out.
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tommorris tantek, Hixie: https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/commit/92740deb7e19b8f1e7fbf6bec001cf52f2b07e99 - got a failing test case for it. ;)
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing (+416) "explicit reference to HTML parsing rules at start, add note HTML parsing rules section and template example, and jgarber test case in the wild" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris - could you file that on phpmf2 as well?
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tantek FYI: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#note_HTML_parsing_rules
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tommorris filed - https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/52
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KartikPrabhu is there a list of tags that are supposed to be ignored in HTML parsing?
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: well, ideally you should follow the HTML parsing rules in the spec.
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KartikPrabhu yes... to follow the parsing rules, I want a list of tags to be ignored
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Loqi gives KartikPrabhu a list of tags to be ignored
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KartikPrabhu unless I trust my HTML parser to do the right thing which has been tricky
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tommorris I’ll probably hack the template ignore rule into mf2py until html5parser for python gets updated to support it.
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: yeah my thoughts exactly :)
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tommorris and fixed. https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/commit/c37b645a5adb002e362df110bb23ff3a65fdf8ad
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tantek tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 28 karma
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KartikPrabhu tommorris++ will pull that also send a PR for some datetime parsing improvements kylewm made to my fork
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Loqi tommorris has 29 karma
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: if you’ve got those, am happy to merge in and maybe put out a new release this week
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KartikPrabhu cool will send PR tonight
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tantek ok now it's bugging me that we look at <link> elements for rel values but not for h-* microformats properties, specifically u-* properties
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tantek !tell tommorris, Kartikprabhu what do you think of changing http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing##a.u-x[href]%20or%20area.u-x[href] to "a.u-x[href] or area.u-x[href] or link.u-x[href]" ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` I like it, tantek, as someone who doesn't necessarily want to alter their design to add a photo / h-card on the homepage. Although my shortcut icons are just the "g" currently, not my photo.
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tantek but you do *have* a shortcut icon at least
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tantek even if it is minimal
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tantek do you not show the icon on the page?
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 55 minutes ago: what do you think of changing http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing##a.u-x[href]%20or%20area.u-x[href] to "a.u-x[href] or area.u-x[href] or link.u-x[href]" ?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: re link.u-x[href] if there are enough use-cases then it wouldn't be hard to change mf2py code
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gRegor` No, I don't show the shortcut icon on the homepage. Just the logo at the top.