#microformats 2015-06-30

2015-06-30 UTC
KartikPrabhu, fuzzyhorns, KevinMarks__ and KevinMarks joined the channel
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@carlopenaii RT @SEOcial: A4:Hidden benefit of pioneering RDFa/Microformats is that you will be easily syndicated by sophisticated entities like Google … (twitter.com/_/status/615746596031078400)
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@neogeografen Keder børnene sig i sommerhuset? - Lav Mapillary fotokonk. hvem der kan lave flest billeder pÃ¥ en dag i omrÃ¥det http://www.microformats.dk/2015/01/13/bevaegelse-motion-gamification-i-folkeskolen/ (twitter.com/_/status/615770867092488192)
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ChiefRA tommorris any news? :)
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@grauniad Gulilaume hreview - sex, violence and protracted booing http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jun/30/guillame-tell-review-royal-opera-house-sex-violence-and-protacted-booing?CMP=twt_gu (twitter.com/_/status/615837942792257536)
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ChiefRA !tell tantek please have a look at my hListing draft modifications I made the other day and please tell me your thoughts on this. Or, let's have a meet about it to definitivate this specific microformat, to upscale it from draft to a 1.0 format. I wish to "help" Google to fix their Tool faster to be able to recognize and use this microformat.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@AccBristol You can use http://Schema.org with #Microdata #RDFa or #jSON-LD - but Microformats is limited in its extendibility. @Chaals at #AccBris (twitter.com/_/status/615947417385574400)
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tantek wow people are still getting that wrong, sigh
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Loqi tantek: ChiefRA left you a message 6 hours, 56 minutes ago: please have a look at my hListing draft modifications I made the other day and please tell me your thoughts on this. Or, let's have a meet about it to definitivate this specific microformat, to upscale it from draft to a 1.0 format. I wish to "help" Google to fix their Tool faster to be able to recognize and use this microformat.
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tantek ChiefRA: thanks for the hListing updates!
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@kevinmarks sorry, @AccBristol, @chaals is wildly wrong there. Microformats is extensible by anyone. http://Schema.org only by Google. #AccBris (twitter.com/_/status/615948922951839744)
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@microformats @AccBristol @chaals that's about 6 years out of date :) #microformats2 has generic syntax and extensible vocabularies. ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/615949030346981376)
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@AccBristol @dbounds @kevinmarks @chaals Yes, our poor choice of words initially. Microformats limits the way http://Schema.org can be used. (twitter.com/_/status/615950036342546433)
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@kevinmarks no, @AccBristol @dbounds @chaals no, that's not right either, you could map schema vocab into microformats2 easily. It would be daft to, yes (twitter.com/_/status/615950616246923264)
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tantek that is a very bizarre response
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@kevinmarks @AccBristol @dbounds @chaals daft because schema has a ridiculously complex inheritance model, but microformats could express it (twitter.com/_/status/615951193508982784)
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@AccBristol .@Danbri acknowledges Microformats 2.0 is more mature, but that it still lags long behind RDFa. @Chaals #AccBris (twitter.com/_/status/615960604914917376)
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tantek wow even more FUD.
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tantek sounds like an apologism for a needlessly complex technology. simpler technology that handles real world use-cases is labeled as "lags" the more complex technology.
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@AccBristol @kevinmarks Posed to @Chaals @Danbri - Yes it could, but it wouldn't scale easily. Microformats lack maturity incomprison to RDFa. (twitter.com/_/status/615961380991201280)
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aaronpk incomprison?
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tantek what is incomprison?
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aaronpk in comparison i think
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@microformats @AccBristol @danbri @chaals @KevinMarks for what real-world use-cases? #microformats2 is certainly simpler, easier to publish than RDFa. ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/615963629616173057)
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tantek I think it's a pretty big mistake to advocate RDFa to an accessibility crowd - since simpler authoring == more accessible authoring.
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@neogeografen 30 grader på vej - husk at dele til #openstreetmap hvor du henter gratis drikkevand på cykelturen o.lign http://www.microformats.dk/2013/07/22/husk-at-samle-vand-ellers/ (twitter.com/_/status/615965311527989248)
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tantek heh: https://twitter.com/MrJonPayne/status/615959775029932033
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@MrJonPayne There's apparently a battle between #microformat guys and #rdf fans. Jeez. Someone should write a musical. #accbris (twitter.com/_/status/615959775029932033)
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tantek how's this for a reply? https://twitter.com/microformats/status/615967445354872832
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@microformats @MrJonPayne hopefully just clearing up misconceptions. For a battle, try them both yourself with real content, compare and report back! ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/615967445354872832)
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aaronpk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 210 karma
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@microformats @MrJonPayne hopefully just clearing up misconceptions. For a battle, try them both yourself with real content, compare and report back! ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/615967445354872832)
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tantek this is interesting: https://twitter.com/MrJonPayne/status/615947577519939584
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@MrJonPayne Spent all day up to my elbows in json. Rdfa looks much easier. Thanks #accbris :) (twitter.com/_/status/615947577519939584)
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tantek so in terms of hard to easy: JSON-LD < JSON < RDFa < microformats2
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tantek Google's documentation has slowly shifted backwards
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tantek from advocating microformats, to microdata (apparently), to RDFa, and the latest is their attemps with JSON-LD data islands. It's like they *want* to make things harder for publishers.
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KevinMarks_ it's also as they gradually lose the people who were paying attention to those arguments and
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KevinMarks_ end up with more "put it in the format I want" people
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tantek the people that don't mind being on the SEO hamsterwheel of constantly trying to update/outguess Google?
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KevinMarks_ I meant on theire internal teams
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KevinMarks_ we spent a chunk of time engaging with them and getting good results (h-recipe etc)
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KevinMarks_ then those people moved on
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tantek yeah
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@mfhepp @kevinmarks @danbri @denials i don't want to restart the #microformats vs. #schema.org war, but the syntax neutrality of s is a win #jsonld (twitter.com/_/status/615975539145179136)
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tantek usually when people say "i dont want to … but " - it means "i do want to"
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@microformats @mfhepp @kevinmarks @danbri @denials All #microformats2 have HTML & #JSON representations. Do you have other pragmatic syntax use-cases? ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/615976585363980288)
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tantek I'm just going to keep asking the hard questions :)
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@kevinmarks @mfhepp @danbri @denials if schema is truly syntax neutral why hasn't it been expressed in microformats-2 yet? (twitter.com/_/status/615977601522229248)
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@kevinmarks can you show me a schema example that you think can't be expressed in microformats? @chaals @danbri @mfhepp @denials https://twitter.com/AccBristol/status/615947417385574400 (twitter.com/_/status/615986540666159104)
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@pcosdeaf RT @kevinmarks: can you show me a schema example that you think can't be expressed in microformats? @chaals @danbri @mfhepp @denials https:… (twitter.com/_/status/615988503504027648)
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KevinMarks_ hm, this is actually a good example
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KevinMarks_ http://www.unmung.com/?html=%3Cdiv+class%3D%22h-RadioSeries%22%3E%0D%0A+%3Ca+class%3D%22p-name%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fprogrammes%2Fb006qykl%22%3EIn+Our+Time%3C%2Fa%3E%2C%0D%0A+%3Cdiv+class%3D%22p-episode+h-RadioEpisode%22%3E%3Ca+class%3D%22p-name%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fprogrammes%2Fb03ggc19%22%3EOrdinary+Language+Philosophy%3C%2Fa%3E%2C+episode+%3Cspan+class%3D%22p-position%22%3E604%3C%
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KevinMarks_ completed example http://www.unmung.com/?html=%3Cdiv+class%3D%22h-RadioSeries%22%3E%0D%0A+%3Ca+class%3D%22p-name%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fprogrammes%2Fb006qykl%22%3EIn+Our+Time%3C%2Fa%3E%2C%0D%0A+%3Cdiv+class%3D%22p-episode+h-RadioEpisode%22%3E%3Ca+class%3D%22p-name%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fprogrammes%2Fb03ggc19%22%3EOrdinary+Language+Philosophy%3C%2Fa%3E%2C+episode+%3Cspan+class%3D%22p-pos
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@mfhepp @kevinmarks @danbri @denials if microformats 2 is a sufficiently generic syntax, it should work. but where is the gain over microdata? (twitter.com/_/status/616009093250052096)
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tantek good to see Martin open to it at least
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KevinMarks_ cna you review my mf2 here: http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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KevinMarks_ going to finish the post now
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tantek KevinMarks: need to use a vendor prefix for schema
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KevinMarks_ ?
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tantek since none of their vocabs have actually gone through any kind of actual open community process
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tantek Kevinmarks you're familiar with -x- and -vnd- ?
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KevinMarks_ will that mess with url and name?
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#VENDOR_EXTENSIONS
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tantek you can re-use u-url and p-name if they mean the same thing
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tantek so for example, h-RadioSeries is no good, because there is no open radioseries format
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KevinMarks_ so h-x-schema-RadioSeries or h-schema-RadioSeries
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tantek so it needs a vendor prefix
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tantek e.g. from that reference: "h-bigco-one-ring" - a hypothetical "bigco" vendor-specific "one-ring" microformat root class name.
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tantek -x- is for experiments/extensions that the publisher feels are likely to be discussed and standardized
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tantek using both -x- and -vnd- is what you might say is daft
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tantek h-schema-org-* is a reasonable prefix for the schema objects
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tantek question is - is their "RadioSeries" meant to be case-sensitive camelcase
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tantek ?
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tantek so either h-schema-RadioSeries if it's supposed to be case-sensitive, or h-schema-radioseries if not
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tantek s/h-schema-/h-schema-org-
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Loqi tantek meant to say: so either h-schema-org-RadioSeries if it's supposed to be case-sensitive, or h-schema-org-radioseries if not
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tantek similarly with RadioEpisode
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tantek and the proprietary "episode" as schema prefix scoped: p-schema-org-episode
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aaronpk why not short name "schema" since microformats.org is referred to in shorthand as "mf2"?
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tantek aaronpk - different contexts - "mf2" is used in parser code project names
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tantek and schema is effectively a vendor
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tantek rather, schema-org is
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tantek and it also provides a convenient way to automaticallly convert a URL based object type into a h-vnd-* type
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tantek KevinMarks: do you know if "episode" is a generic (global) schemaorg term, or specific to "RadioSeries" ?
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KevinMarks_ https://schema.org/RadioSeries has https://schema.org/episode which is an https://schema.org/Episode
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KevinMarks_ which has an episodeNumber which is apparently different from a position
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KevinMarks_ because position is inherited from CreativeWork
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KevinMarks_ and we got nerdsniped again
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tantek ok if it's global to schema-org then p-schema-org-episode
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KevinMarks_ you sure about -schema-org- ? makes us look like namespace
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KevinMarks_ -schema- is fine imo
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KevinMarks_ (I don't want url-looking namespaces)
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tantek you could point that out
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tantek say, depending on your preference for a more CSS-like vendor prefix, or a more URL-like vendor prefix
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tantek you could use either -schema- or -schema-org-
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tantek since semweb folks are typically strongly biased for URL-like namespaces, they should logically prefer the latter
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KevinMarks_ I don't want to encourage them
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tantek it's not about encouragement but more like reductio
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KevinMarks_ the point of this is to toggle between mf2 and microdata/rdfa and see the compactnes
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KevinMarks_ and also see that they ballsed up the JSON-LD
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KevinMarks_ because it's a side file
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KevinMarks_ and that our JSON is consistently parsed from the mf2 by n parsers
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KartikPrabhu also mf2 does not intorduce new arbitrary attributes. class is supposed to mean "this element belongs to this class of elements" exactly what mf2 is using it for