#microformats 2015-07-01

2015-07-01 UTC
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KevinMarks_ updated: http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: do you know what the latest changes to the python parser regarding implied name properties were?
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aaronpk we need to get those into the PHP library
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gRegorLove aaronpk: I can probably fit in some php-mf2 updates if they're not too complicated. What's this about implied name rules?
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aaronpk i don't know, hopefully KevinMarks knows
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aaronpk i'm ironically unknowledgable about the internals of microformats2 parsing
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gRegorLove Hehe
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gRegorLove I know enough to get myself in trouble
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KevinMarks_ let me look
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/kevinmarks/mf2py/commit/edc895ef5a780bcee654e6644a688688934517b0
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KevinMarks_ there's spec text too
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gRegorLove KevinMarks: Do you have a public mf2py parser on your site I can test, a la pin13?
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KevinMarks_ yes, on unmung.com
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gRegorLove Thanks
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gRegorLove I'll compare and look at how difficult it is to update php-mf2
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KevinMarks_ http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65050&oldid=65043
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gRegorLove So with http://www.kevinmarks.com%2Finourtime.html the parsed 'value' for 'schema-episode' should be "Ordinary Language Philosophy" correct? That's the only difference I've spotted between the parsers so far.
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KevinMarks_ updated post again
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@kevinmarks @denials @mfhepp @danbri @niklasl the RDFa is nicer than the microdata, but the microformats is more compact: http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html#more%20compact (twitter.com/_/status/616063779315384320)
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@kevinmarks @JarnoVanDriel @denials @danbri @mfhepp that still has the DRY problems of all side files: http://microformats.org/wiki/dry#sidefiles (twitter.com/_/status/616064817695043584)
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@dbounds RT @kevinmarks: no, @AccBristol @dbounds @chaals no, that's not right either, you could map schema vocab into microformats2 easily. It woul… (twitter.com/_/status/616117220335222786)
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@kevinmarks @danbri @mfhepp @denials we've been working on that for microformats http://testrunner-47055.onmodulus.net/ (twitter.com/_/status/616167598317658112)
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ChiefRA tantek my pleasure. All the guys around (not only tommorris and tantek) if you have time, please have a look at my latest modifications of hListing mf, draft here: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting-duplicated-for-discussions and explanation for this drapt here: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting-brainstorming and please give me some feedback so we
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ChiefRA can wrap up this format from draft into 1.0. All the feedback is greately appreciated! thanks.
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@kevinmarks @danbri @mfhepp @denials not really - we define the parsing rules http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing with some explicit vocab (name, url, etc) (twitter.com/_/status/616172816057040896)
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tommorris ChiefRA: I still don't think we ought to be releasing a new draft of a non-mf2 format
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csarven ChiefRA I've been using hListing/h-listing for awhile now. I don't know if it is still "valid" as per your update to the draft, but see here: http://csarven.ca/archives/articles
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csarven (i.e., Related Readings in the articles)
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ChiefRA tommorris and csarven I know we're using it for some time, but we need to define the mf1 first, then to move to mf2.
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ChiefRA If we don't do that, Google will loose support for it.
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ChiefRA they're already have glitches when trying to validate it in their tool: https://developers.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool/
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ChiefRA it only give you a vague answer, and "I presume" is becvause the specs are not solid.
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tommorris ChiefRA: the problem is I can't seem to find much if any published hListing on the web. that's sort of why I lost interest in it last time.
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ChiefRA thay cannot rely on the actual specs to create a strong validator.
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ChiefRA tommorris, I have A LOT of websites with hListing implemented.
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ChiefRA Like several tens of them, e.g.: www.sothebysrealty.com
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ChiefRA their associates websites which are a lot, and so on.
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tommorris csarven: how is a list of citations an hListing/h-listing? it's for classified advertising not a list of citations. o_O
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tommorris csarven: looking at that markup, h-cite seems the preferable solution
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ChiefRA I mean, I wish to go forward with hListing, as it's very user friendly and so on, but I can't continue with it if Google doesn't use it, and Google slowly eliminate it because the specs aren't solid.
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tommorris ChiefRA: what do you mean by user friendly? ;-)
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ChiefRA coding friendly if you wish - it's easy to be implemented
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tommorris it's great that you have implemented it, but I'm not seeing wide adoption.
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tommorris ChiefRA: presumably as opposed to schema.org RDFa etc.
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ChiefRA yep! :)
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tommorris so, there's a bunch of things that are pretty objectively broken about mf1 - like, rel scoping is broken
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tommorris which is why it isn't in mf2
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ChiefRA so, tommorris, my plan - please contradict me if needed - is as follows: a) we need to step-up with 1.0 (make the specs rock solid) b) I'll implement it on the websites I'm responsible with. 3) make sure these specs along with real-life cases (my websites) reach Google Technical Team so for they to fix their algorithms and their Structured Data Testing Tool for using it again properly.
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tommorris we use p-category rather than rel-tag because rel-tag goes against document scoping rules laid out in HTML5
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tommorris and while there are some people who reject HTML5 in favour of preciously sticking to XHTML 1.x or HTML 4.x, in practice that's a pretty unsustainable approach
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ChiefRA I don't say there isn't place for improvement from mf1 -> mf2. But let's fix it ascendingly.... we need to have rock-solid specs for mf1 then, applying them to the mf2 version. DO you agree?
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tommorris nope, I'd say given that hListing isn't widely adopted, just let it die and build h-listing
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KevinMarks_ we've shifted a bit, in that now we look at how to express it in mf2, then what we need to do for backward compatible support
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ChiefRA tommorris that's not sustainable in real-life cases, since Google doesn't recognize the mf2. none of them.
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csarven I don't know if ther eis a process here e.g., get mf1 out of draft and then do mf2, nowadays, but I don't see how that is a preferable process. If there is no wide adoption, just bump it up and work on it in mf2
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tommorris other microformats like hCard, hReview and hCalendar got widespread adoption so backwards compatibility is something we need to do
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KevinMarks_ and some of that is dropping properties that didn't get wide adoption or renaming them to be more consistent
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tommorris but the examples in the wild listing for hListing has three websites
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tommorris two of which are run by you ChiefRA. like, you are two thirds of the implementers. ;-)
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csarven tommorris You are right. The h-listings that I have now are more appropriate for citation/related/seealso
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ChiefRA :)))))
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ChiefRA guys, I look at this from my perspective. I need to serve Google something that "it" understands. I may have to swhich to Schema implementation for the time being (a few years from now) until Google recognize the mf2.
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ChiefRA which is nither pleasant, nor easy... but I don't have other choice.
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ChiefRA I struggle to "fix" the hListing (mf1) because this one IS sustainable by Google at present.
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tommorris I don't think there's going to be any consensus to take hListing to 1.0 given lack of implementation
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tommorris hListing sort of sits in the same place that other specs like vote-links (which I rather liked) which didn't take off ended up
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ChiefRA me neither, but what I needed was another pair(s) of brain(s) to have a look over my notes, maybe I've missed something etc.
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ChiefRA maybe my proposal can be improved, I don't know :)
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ChiefRA if you guys agree with my notes and my change-implementation-suggestions I've made, then, we can set it.
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ChiefRA mf2 is in its early staging of acceptance. Google doesn't seem to want to support it soon, I've even asked them directly and the official answer was: we don't know even IF we will ever support it...
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ChiefRA so, based on this, we need to "feed" Google what it can "chew" to get the advantage.
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ChiefRA I'm not saying mf2 is wrong in any way, only that based on the actual feedback, it takes a while to settle. In the mean time, we need to use what Google (and other search engines) do support.
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tommorris ChiefRA: I'd suggest a whole bunch of things. I made a bunch of changes in the h-listing draft you could backport
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tommorris 1. get rid of the version property. it's unimplemented and unnecessary
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ChiefRA I said that also in my latest comments.
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ChiefRA please review them here: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting-brainstorming
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ChiefRA ersion - now optional, should be removed as deprecated - because the version should be deduced from the name of the microformat itself: hListing (version 1), h-Listing (version 2), h-Listing3 - could become version 3, etc.
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ChiefRA next? :)
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tommorris 2. "intermediate(NEW! - there are a lot of businesses intermediating between buyers and sellers)"
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tommorris wha-?
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tommorris what do you mean by a "desired type of listing?"
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ChiefRA let me get to that. I'll answer in a second.
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ChiefRA maybe I didn't choose the right word by "desired", we can change it.
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ChiefRA did you get the intermediate part or should I further explain it?
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tommorris ChiefRA: not really
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ChiefRA it's like "mediate", for example, if someone wants to create a new company, phisically. An "newbie" would walk a lot to get all the necesarry papers done to start a new company, but here, there are a lot of companies, which do that for you for a fee. They'd do it faster, easier and the fee is minimum.
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ChiefRA same thing happens when you sell a car.
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ChiefRA happens = apply
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ChiefRA :) ok.
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chiefra edited /hlisting-brainstorming (+17) "/* Revised Base Schema Elements (proposed, revised by Arthur Radulescu 14:25, 29 Jun 2015 (UTC)) */ small correction for better viewing." (view diff)
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ChiefRA now it's easier to follow what I wanted to say as I've marked up properly the properties.
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chiefra edited /hlisting-brainstorming (+12) "/* Revised Base Schema Elements (proposed, revised by Arthur Radulescu 14:25, 29 Jun 2015 (UTC)) */ replaced . . . with a proper property: "housing" within the code examples." (view diff)
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ChiefRA tommorris do you want me to have a comparison between h-Listing and hListing to adjust them accordingly for backwards compatibility?
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tommorris ChiefRA: probably a good idea to explain those things.
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tommorris ChiefRA: if you want to. I haven't got much else to add. sorry, I've got to run.
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ChiefRA tommorris so you're ok with my proposal so far?
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ChiefRA tommorris ok, thanks for the time, see you later.
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tommorris what I've read looks like it has clarified some of the issues
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ChiefRA yes, that was the intention.
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ChiefRA I don't want to change the structure, just to adjust for clarification. :)
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@TheWPTheme #WordPress Theme - Redify http://thewptheme.com/free-theme/redify.xhtml?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thewptheme+%28TheWPTheme%29 #freetheme #custombackground #fixedwidth #leftsidebar #microformats (twitter.com/_/status/616197898196234240)
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@DigestWordpress RT @TheWPTheme: #WordPress Theme - Redify http://thewptheme.com/free-theme/redify.xhtml?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thewptheme+%28TheWPTheme%29 #freetheme #custombackground #fixedwidth #leftsidebar #microformats (twitter.com/_/status/616202728033796096)
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@TNOrdinaryGirl RT @Shelia_Kay: @TNOrdinaryGirl @exede @AjitPaiFCC http://satellitecomplaints.com/exede-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-693 (twitter.com/_/status/616255376241987585)
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@kevinmarks @briankelly @AccBristol @MrJonPayne you might be interested in my follow-up post about microformats and schema: http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html (twitter.com/_/status/616298247020113920)
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@kevinmarks I managed to represent http://schema.org in #microformats http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616306330412802048/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/616306330412802048)
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@pcosdeaf RT @kevinmarks: I managed to represent http://schema.org in #microformats http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616306330412802048/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/616307344150913024)
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@pvestatesca Solano Land Trust has great nature events year-round. Learn more here: http://www.solanolandtrust.org/CalendarList.aspx?hCalendar=1 (twitter.com/_/status/616305270038249472)
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@SEOSEM RT @kevinmarks: I managed to represent http://schema.org in #microformats http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616306330412802048/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/616310664873803776)
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tantek catches up on discussion from very early this morning
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@IM_Coaching Author Hreview Review – Increase Search Traffic With Eye Catching SERPS http://www.matthewwoodward.co.uk/reviews/author-hreview-review-increase-search-traffic-with-eye-catching-serps/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter #AuthorHreview #WordpressHacks (twitter.com/_/status/616339378919444480)
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tantek let's talk pros/cons of wrapping hListing into a 1.0, and what should make it into that draft and what shouldn't (assuming we want to make it happen)
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tantek the back/forth I saw earlier this morning had lots of good points, yet some were talking past each other
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tantek it may be worth specifying back compat for the properties that Google has chosen to parse from hListing
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tantek (and if we have some confidence, properties they support in other syntaxes but which they claim they'll support in hListing - i.e. what ChiefRA has heard from them)
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tantek pretty sure a bunch of these questions we can answer by following the existing microformats.org/wiki/process for moving a draft forward
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tantek especially since we have multiple publishers and at least one consumer (Google)
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tantek edited /search-engines (+9) "-Gsocialgraphapi +relme support" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ could add backcompat for hlisting to mf2py
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tantek good to know - but we should define a strict subset of properties based on *existing* implementating / consuming code accordingly
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tantek s/implementating/implementing
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Loqi tantek meant to say: good to know - but we should define a strict subset of properties based on *existing* implementing / consuming code accordingly
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KevinMarks_ yes
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tantek existing implementation + what ChiefRA claims is
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tantek "likely" to be implemented per his contacts
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tantek that way we should be able to satisfy all the constraints
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tantek edited /google-search (+76) "rel-me support" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ the sothebys feed seems to have both hlisting and schema microdata
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tantek interesting - probably worth documenting which specific properties they seem to be publishing
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tantek edited /google-search (+147) "move SGAPI to previous support" (view diff)
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rhiaro Quick pre-googling-it question. Is there something in mf for marking up definitions?
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tantek no but there's markup in HTML for that
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rhiaro indeed
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rhiaro thanks
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tantek <dl><dt>term</dt><dd>definition</dd></dl> :)
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tantek we've tried to avoid duping semantics that exist in HTML
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tantek except when we need to associate something specifically
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tantek !tell ChiefRA have you tried posting hListing test pages with all the properties in your latest hListing proposal and seeing which ones the Google Structured Data Testing Tool shows that it found?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell ChiefRA I think that's the next step - post public URL examples of hListing markup with all the properties you want, that way we can all see what existing consuming code does with them.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove Do we need to be approved to edit the wiki, or are some pages just locked?
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tantek !tell ChiefRA I think your general overall plan is a good one. re: a) step up with 1.0 rock solid specs, b) implement on your sites, c) make sure those real life cases reach Google Technical Team.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek gRegorLove: only some pages are locked
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tantek due to spam / abuse in the past
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tantek however we've been gradually unlocking pages when requested, and so far nothing has gone wrong with that
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tantek gRegorLove: so if you see something you want to edit and it won't let you, speak up and one of the admins in the channel should be able to help
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gRegorLove I was trying to fix the <code> on this line. It's open from the previous line. http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing##use+the+first+p-name
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gRegorLove Just minor formatting
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tantek edited /Special:Log/protect () "unprotected "[[microformats2-parsing]]"" (view diff)
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tantek ok let's see what happens :)
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gregorlove edited /microformats2-parsing (+7) "/* parse an element for class microformats */ + </code>" (view diff)
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gRegorLove shakes first at MediaWiki autocapitalization of usernames
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tantek just noticed KevinMarks got retweeted by an SEO bot
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gRegorLove s/first/fist/
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Loqi gRegorLove meant to say: shakes fist at MediaWiki autocapitalization of usernames
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tantek the image on this tweet is hilarious https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616306330412802048
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@kevinmarks I managed to represent http://schema.org in #microformats http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616306330412802048/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/616306330412802048)
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csarven <div class="p-episode h-RadioEpisode"> vs. <div property="episode" typeof="RadioEpisode"> -- which of those is easier to understand / self-explanatory?
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tantek which of those do you need to learn two new attributes? and then also learn the vocabulary separately?
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tantek !tell csarven did you update your hListing examples to use h-cite in some cases? do you still have live hListing or h-listing examples in the wild that you think are appropriate/correct? if so can you add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Examples_in_the_Wild ? Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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csarven tantek Reminder that I don't have access to the mf wiki.
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Loqi csarven: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: did you update your hListing examples to use h-cite in some cases? do you still have live hListing or h-listing examples in the wild that you think are appropriate/correct? if so can you add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Examples_in_the_Wild ? Thanks!
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tantek kicks self
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tantek csarven, would you be opposed to creating a new account csarven2 until we can resolve database permissions problems?
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csarven tantek You didn't answer my questions ;) but came up with two different ones. We can of course play this game of "what's easier". If one to make a claim like "easier", they'd better be prepared to back it up with some data e.g., surveys on users/authors/developers/or whoever is being tested for mf/RDFa usage. Otherwise, stuff like microformatschema.html are just opinion pieces. (Not to imply...
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csarven ...that opinions are unwanted or useless)
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rhiaro tantek, what do you mean 'also learn the vocabulary separately'?
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csarven But what gets to me is that it is mentioned as if it is some fact.
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csarven Pretty photo though.
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csarven tantek No worries! Instead of csarven2 how about tantekneedstofixwikipermissions ? :P
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tantek edited /search-engines (+55) "use web archive link to Google support since their latest update lost info" (view diff)
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tantek csarven - that user name would be a DRY violation of the existing issue on the wiki :P
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csarven :)
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rhiaro Also... I feel like pros and cons of overloading 'class' vs using property and typeof about balance
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tantek csarven - yes, a lot of the "data" is anecdotal in hearing horror stories from web designers and developers about RDFa confusion, and about relief when using microformats instead.
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tantek professional web designers and developers literally don't care or don't even think of any issues with overloading 'class' vs using property and typeof
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tantek typically that's architecture astronomy talk
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tantek csarven - to be fair, we've seen similar anecdotal horror stories from web designers and developers about microdata confusion, and about relief when using microformats instead.
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tantek not surprising since RDFa and microdata are not that different any more, since RDFa dropped rel etc.
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rhiaro we have anecdotal evidence about things getting messed up when styles are applied to microformats classes, too
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tantek in maintenance updates, yes
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KartikPrabhu rhiaro: what do you mean "overloading class" ?
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tantek which seemingly undoes the "advantage" of using microformats classes for styling
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KartikPrabhu also CSS can be applied to anything including tag-names so the same problem
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tantek however, if you're only building and launching a simple fairly static site, using microformats classes for styling is no problem at all, and a huge efficiency boost
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the term "overloading class" typically comes from a worldview that was artificially limited about what the class attribute was/is for
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KartikPrabhu class attribute != CSS hook
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tantek people not realizing it really was intended to be multipurpose in HTML
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tantek KartikPrabhu: bingo
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tantek per http://tantek.com/2012/353/b1/why-html-classes-css-class-selectors
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rhiaro is learning
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KartikPrabhu i can even style using [property=startDate] according to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Attribute_selectors so RDFa has the same problem wrt styling using specific properties
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tantek rhiaro: frankly, this type of limited worldview tends to (anecdotally) be held/assumed/presented by SemWeb folks that have a very limited worldview of HTML overall, e.g. often assuming HTML is only for presentation
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tantek KartikPrabhu: except that it's so awkward to use RDFa [property] for styling that no one bothers to. microformats classes are much more tempting to style because it's so easy to do so with the class selector
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KartikPrabhu but if we are speaking hypothetical that is a hytopthetical counter argument ;)
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KartikPrabhu says something smug with a typo sheesh!
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tantek I'm going to agree with you because I don't understand your reply :)
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KartikPrabhu :P
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tantek nods his head and hopes no one notices.
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KartikPrabhu in any case, personally I have found mf2 easier to write and also update even if CSS styles break than RDFa stuff so I'll stick to mf2 for now
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csarven tantek Preference for styling @class over @property may simply be (i.e., Occam's razor) that people have seen and use @classes far longer than @properties
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csarven That is entirely different than somehow "class" being superior to "property" for styling.
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csarven At least it is not inherent.
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rhiaro It's not too much of a stretch that developers who don't know about mf and see code with microformats classes assume they are CSS related. If they see property attributes and don't recognise it, they can at least google it as something they don't know rather than making a wrong assumption about what it's for
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tantek csarven - reason for preference irrelevant. existence of it is all that's being pointed out.
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tantek and pre-existing such preference (AKA what devs already know how to do) is sufficient for superiority
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csarven still doesn't see how x is easier than y.
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tantek because devs know x more than y already
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tantek csarven and it's pretty much 100% of anecdotal examples of devs trying both in real world situations / professional site development
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csarven It is not just the attribute here that's in question.
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tantek regardless of whether you can't see a theoretical differnce
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tantek not seeing a theoretical difference is irrelevant
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csarven What makes the class=value easier than property=value as far as semantic annotations go?
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tantek as compared to actual experience in the wild
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tantek usually means the theories need to be adjusted per the data
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tantek not vice versa
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tantek csarven, as already said, one possibility is existing web dev knowledge of class attribute, and how to use it, how to use with multiple class values, etc.
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tantek knowledge *and* experience doing so
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tantek usually makes things easier
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tantek anyway - not really interested in exploring theoretically any more - you're welcome to go get your own anecdotal data by teaching workshops in semantic markup and gathering results
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tantek edited /google-search (+26) "use web archive link to Google support since their latest update lost info" (view diff)
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csarven is not convinced =)
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tantek edited /hlisting (+333) "/* implementations */ Google Search and Rich snippets supports consuming hListing" (view diff)
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tantek csarven - you're welcome to cling to theory if that's what you prefer - your lack of being theoretically convinced is not going to convince anyone else either.
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csarven I don't see how you draw up this "theoretical" card? Which of my comments came across as theoretical to you? I am merely asking for some evidence or support of this "easier" claims.
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csarven All I get back is perceptions.
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csarven Well, that has a lot to do with who you hang out.
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csarven .. with.
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KartikPrabhu why is this a debate? If people find RDFa easier/convenient/pretty they should use that, if others find the same for mf2 they should use that
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csarven Even if it is "easier", can you measure it? How much easier is it? Does it matter? In monetary terms, how much cheaper is "easier"?
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KartikPrabhu seems like the Mac vs PC debate from the early 10s
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csarven There are issues here at play: documentation, community support, "dogfooding" ..
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csarven And I think those things have far more influence on "easier" than the @class vs. @property "debate".
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tantek csarven - see above, current "data" is anecdotal mix of in-person experience, and people reporting in IRC, the wiki etc.
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KartikPrabhu how do those differ between RDFa and mf2?
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tantek anyway - since you don't want to see those comments, can't help you with "All I get back is perceptions."
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KartikPrabhu both have pretty fine documentation, both have "community support"...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: not really, there is no "RDFa community"
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tantek there's various semweb lists, channels etc. certainly no real cluster around RDFa
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tantek e.g. RDFa WG closed 2015-03-27 - that was closest thing to a "community" that existed. http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/
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csarven copy/pastes his last two lines.
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csarven Anyhew.. this h-card is off to bed. Catch you all folks later :)
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tantek !tell ChiefRA to help push hListing along, I documented the Google support explicitly with a link to my earlier analysis that I did a while ago: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#implementations
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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