#microformats 2015-07-02
2015-07-02 UTC
# 
@lubiana Dafür habe ich jetzt voll viel über microformats und semantische-tags gelernt. (twitter.com/_/status/616398413639323648)
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tantek edited /Main_Page (+71) "update wiki home page for microformats2 since they've been stable for over a year, simplify some of the text before the specs, separate rel microformats to reduce confusion, classic microformats" (view diff)
KartikPrabhu, tantek, fuzzyhorns, KevinMarks_, KevinMarks, gRegorLove, KevinMarks__, ChiefRA, emmak, csarven, kez, Left_Turn, chiui and eschnou joined the channel
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@mfhepp @kevinmarks @danbri @denials Anyway, I do not think we can resolve the dispute via twitter, & personally I think #microformats are history (twitter.com/_/status/616550088828166144)
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# csarven What is the expected value for p-author?
# csarven Can it contain multiple values?
# csarven "Alice Bob Carl"
# csarven Or will that be treated as one item (I presume this is the case)
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gRegorLove It would be treated as one author, yes. You would want multiple p-author for multiple authors
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# gRegorLove I embed my h-card when I publish p-author on my site. I think that's common, but it's not required
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ben_thatmustbeme multiple h-cards
# ben_thatmustbeme with p-author, or would you do p-author and multiple h-cards beneath that?
# csarven In the case of h-cite, would it be appropriate to use p-author along with p-publication in the same class?
# gRegorLove One p-author, multiple child h-cards
# ben_thatmustbeme unmung.com has a nice spot to plug in html and see what it parses as
# csarven Hmm, no, p-publication and p-author shouldn't go together.
# gRegorLove I'm not familiar with p-publication
# csarven Can mf2 properties chain its values to its descendent elements e.g., <span class=p-author><span class=h-card/></span> ? Or do they look for the values from their text nodes?
# csarven re: multiple authors, I think I'm stuck with either using p-author incorrectly or drop its use. I'm getting data from an API which returns random text for the author field. Can't be bothered to clean/normalize that
# csarven So, if this wasn't already discussed, if mf2 (or mf3?) allowed chaining, there'd be an ever clear way to map mf<->RDFa. That's not a justification for it to exist in any way.
# csarven Sorry, I should be more clear here. I was thinking of things at once.
# csarven ^two things at once.
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aaronpk there's quite a bit of chaining going on here http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
# csarven 1. possibility to complete attribute-value declarations through child elements 2. and the possibility to describe a new entity through the value of its parent.
# csarven both appear to be possible, with the exception that every entity is sort of like a bnode
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KevinMarks_ every entity can have a url - in that example they all do I think
# csarven As I don't think something like this makes sense: <s class="u-uid"><s class="hcard/></s>
# csarven Having a url is a property of that thing.
# csarven Unless mf2 treats url as the way to identity things
# csarven or uid or hwatever
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# KevinMarks_ yes, urls identify things in microfromats
# csarven And if you don't have an url, the thing you've described can't be identified? (URI is to "identify", URL is to "locate". Aside: In Tantek's beautiful words that I'd like reuse: this is "architecture astronomy talk")
# gRegorLove I was about to ask what the use-case is, to better grasp what you're referring to. :)
# KevinMarks_ you're free to append a # to the URLs to satisfy your pedantry
# gRegorLove Here's a real-world example of my p-author with h-card within it, if it helps. h-* always parses as a child element. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes%2F2015%2F06%2F24%2F7%2F
# csarven Irrelevant at this point. mf doesn't acknowledge URIs. In any case, the question remains re: "urls identify things in microfromats", in the absence of an url, can a thing be identified?
# csarven gRegorLove I'm merely asking about what mf2 is doing. Don't need use-cases to explain myself :)
# gRegorLove Sorry, just having a hard time understanding. I'm no mf pro, though
# gRegorLove Identified how?
# csarven gRegorLove That's a good example thanks
# gRegorLove You're welcome
# csarven rhiaro url/uid/xyz are all properties. KevinMarks_ 's statement sounds like if url's are present, that would be the way to identify that thing. I'm asking what do you call "that" which has no url. Same applies for uid or any other property.
# KevinMarks_ no, you need to explain *why* you want to do that
# csarven gRegorLove "value": "http:\/\/gregorlove.com\/assets\/img\/profile.jpg\r\n\t\t\tby gRegor Morrill" is not clear to me.
# csarven Dude, I'm asking what mf2 is doing. I don't have to prove anything to you!
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# csarven It is a simple question.
# ben_thatmustbeme csarven: the default in many of these groups is "real world example" otherwise its just doing theoretical exercises that may be pointless
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# gRegorLove csarven: I think the php-mf2 parser used in my example is not correct. It should be pulling the p-name from the h-card child, "gRegor Morrill" in this instance.
# gRegorLove The issue's been raised and hopefully php-mf2 will be patched soon for that example.
# KevinMarks oops, fell off
# ben_thatmustbeme h-entries in mf2 could have no u-url, I don't see any problem with that.
# ben_thatmustbeme comes in to the conversation a bit late
# KevinMarks are you trying to link to the mf2 object?
# csarven I'm asking about how something works or is called. Do you or do you not have a name for something which has no url? (As it was stated that "yes, urls identify things in microfromats". I'm asking about the opposite.)
# KevinMarks are you trying to address part of the parsed data?
# csarven ben_thatmustbeme Okay, in that example, there is no way to identify that h-entry correct? Other than perhaps its location in the document?
# ben_thatmustbeme as far as I know there is no name for it in mf2 world, its just parsed data at that point.
# csarven Cool, thanks!
# ben_thatmustbeme csarven: nope, though you could possibly use an ID but thats outside of MF2 parsing
# csarven In the RDF world, something like this is called along the lines of a bnode. I was looking for a similar term or treatment from the mf side.
# ben_thatmustbeme mf2 parsers just parse "a document" that could be fetched by parsing the HTML for a fragment
# KevinMarks right, you could link to the h-entry if it has an id
# KevinMarks or you could use a fragmention link to its text
# ben_thatmustbeme you can use any external method you wish actually,
# ben_thatmustbeme thats entirely outside of MF2 land
# csarven Cool, got it!
# KevinMarks or you could parse the page and get the nth h-entry
# csarven That's totally fine. I was only trying to determine whether it exists or not.
# KevinMarks is there a CSS selector for nth-of-class ?
# ben_thatmustbeme i think so, there is in jquery
# ben_thatmustbeme .h-entry:nth-of-type(2)
# gRegorLove Beat me to it
# gRegorLove :)
# csarven !tell tantek I've dropped h-listings. Using h-cite now. Defaulting to "broken" way of using p-author in h-cite because I am lazy (as a developer) to clean/normalize its value where it is retrieved from an external resource, and it contains multiple authors along with some other random text.
# KevinMarks no, that's by type
# csarven IRI
# csarven IRI or bnode
# csarven webpage/email are IRIs
# csarven Not sure why you are sarcastic
# csarven is confused
# KevinMarks oh, that does work gRegorLove
# KevinMarks not clear from the docs
# csarven *[class] probably
# csarven It has Message-ID
# KevinMarks !tell tantek https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/%3Anth-of-type shoudl show that you can address classes as well as types (or is that not generally true?)
# csarven *[class]:nth-of-type(2) should work
# 
@kevinmarks @anshublog twitter is email with no to: field (I think that is Sergey Brin's description) (twitter.com/_/status/616395539387527168)
# KevinMarks it works for me in chrome and safari: http://dabblet.com/gist/420ad9c379e07b526d74
# KevinMarks and firefox
# KevinMarks though stack overflow has several answers saying it doesn't dating from 2013
# KevinMarks so csarven, a natural way of addressing microformats within a page is by css class selector
# KevinMarks if you want to point to them structurally
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# csarven Could just as well be XPath
# ben_thatmustbeme though generally if you are pulling something within a feed i'd recommend against using nth-of-type as thats will change as soon as anything is added
# ben_thatmustbeme wonders how much browsers respect the "only one of an ID" and if [id]:nth-of-type would work
# csarven In a way XPath is actually a lot more powerful to refer/address/name/point to things in a document as it can traverse or look for certain conditions.
# KevinMarks right, tantek uses files with long collections of posts queried with xpath as the backend to his site
# ben_thatmustbeme bi-monthly storage files
# KevinMarks with month defined using his personal modified calendar
# csarven How would one use u-uid for the ISBN?
# KevinMarks for u-uid it would need to be URL
# KevinMarks p-uid if it's an inline value
# csarven Didn't know p-uid existed
# KevinMarks u- and p- are parsing directives
# ben_thatmustbeme still not clear on exactly what e- is for actually
# KevinMarks though h- does
# csarven entry?
# ben_thatmustbeme keep forgetting to look at that
# KevinMarks e- means 'the html contents of this element'
# ben_thatmustbeme ahhhh
# KevinMarks useful for h-entry, for example
# ben_thatmustbeme e-content is the only place i ever saw it
# aaronpk 'e-*' for embedded markup properties http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-prefixes#microformats_2_prefixes
# KevinMarks losing the prefixes on parsing does mean it's harder to round-trip
# KevinMarks if something could a url or text, your consuming code has to sniff it
# ben_thatmustbeme i don't think it makes sense to round-trip though, its not 1-to-1 so it doesn't really matter
# KevinMarks well, also if I'm trying to construct a page from the parsed output, I have to assume a type
# ben_thatmustbeme so long as you can generate some html that will parse back to the same results, there are infinitely many options
# csarven I think it might be confusing to tell in situations where an URL is used as p-url
# aaronpk <span class="p-url">http://example.com</span>
# ben_thatmustbeme unlinked url but still contains url as text
# csarven not sure what the difference is in the end.
# csarven or how it will/should be treated
# csarven p- is more like for displaying (for the human)
# KevinMarks url is clear enough
# KevinMarks we've defined that as a general property like name
# csarven aaronpk Right. I was giving an example to KevinMarks' point. p-url will give you url, but going back to p-url or u-url is not clear. Actually this holds true for all properties.
# KevinMarks well, it can matter - I got this when trying to make the indiecards
# csarven The preference/default for some properties may be that "okay, if you see url, go with u-url"
# ben_thatmustbeme the only difference between <span class="p-url">http://example.com</span> and <span class="u-url" href="http://example.com">example.com</span> will be the value of Name
# ben_thatmustbeme so really u-url has more fidelity
# csarven Right. It just illustrates that it is a case by case or whatever the preference may be for the consumer/publisher.
# ben_thatmustbeme yes. well, publisher, the consumer parses it by the parser
# KevinMarks aaronpk: I had to do https://github.com/kevinmarks/unmung/blob/master/indiecard.html#L23
# csarven So, when an h- type doesn't have a property does that mean that it is disallowed or can one use any property as they like?
# csarven h-cite for example mentions u-uid but not p-uid.
# csarven In my case (and I imagine others do something similar here), I use p-uid for the ISBN of an h-cite
# KevinMarks because benwerd's h-card has an html note
# KevinMarks (this is the 'writing code in templates' problem I was talking about last night
# KevinMarks i should probably move that logic to the python side
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# ben_thatmustbeme p-uid of an isbn would make sense i think
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# csarven ben_thatmustbeme Yea, I think so too. ISBN is a string any way
# ben_thatmustbeme i believe there was an isbn class for MF1
# csarven Right.
# csarven p-isbn would be a sub-property of p-uid
# csarven So, p-isbn p-issn .. would be a more appropriate than p-uid, especially in the case of h-cite
# csarven Plenty of examples listed here http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples
# KevinMarks right, the isbn is a more specific identifier than uid
# csarven I am going to go ahead and use p-isbn. See you all on the other side!
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@Shelia_Kay @exede @NHRA Read before you sign a contract. Worst ISP ever. http://satellitecomplaints.com/exede-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-693 (twitter.com/_/status/616713012926222337)
# jgay tantek, any chance you could make rel-jslicense to the existing-rel-values list? More sites have started to use it in the past year and more sites and frameworsk ahve complained to us about it not passing w3c validation
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Loqi tantek: csarven left you a message 3 hours, 47 minutes ago: I've dropped h-listings. Using h-cite now. Defaulting to "broken" way of using p-author in h-cite because I am lazy (as a developer) to clean/normalize its value where it is retrieved from an external resource, and it contains multiple authors along with some other random text.
# Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 3 hours, 42 minutes ago: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/%3Anth-of-type shoudl show that you can address classes as well as types (or is that not generally true?)
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# jgay tantek, you mean <http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense>?
# tantek edited /rel-jslicense (+1058) "note no current issues, verify EFF live example in wild, note research of previous examples / other techniques used for indicating js license, mv Consumers to Implementations" (view diff)
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tantek !tell jgay you mentioned "More sites have started to use it in the past year" re: rel-jslicense - could you links to their pages that use rel=jslicense to: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense#Examples_in_the_wild ? Thanks!
# tantek anyone object to rel-jslicense? if you could document your issues at http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense#Issues that would be appreciated. seeing no other input I'm going to add it to existing-rel-values HTML5 values - though jgay could have done that himself too!
# tantek edited /rel-jslicense (+81) "/* Examples in the wild */ add FSF.org, note use on a href" (view diff)
# tantek edited /existing-rel-values (-102) "move js-license from brainstorming to HTML5 proposed additions, could have been here before, but certainly now with real world publishing examples and consuming code!" (view diff)
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@microformats Thanks @joshuagay for making rel=jslicense happen! http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense use it to link from HTML to license for scripts (twitter.com/_/status/616730078911684608)
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@wbwdt RT @microformats: Thanks @joshuagay for making rel=jslicense happen! http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense use it to link from HTML to license for scripts (twitter.com/_/status/616730935669731328)
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@pinceladasdaweb RT @microformats: Thanks @joshuagay for making rel=jslicense happen! http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense use it to link from HTML to license for scripts (twitter.com/_/status/616743186720014336)
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@Marketer_UK RT @microformats: Thanks @joshuagay for making rel=jslicense happen! http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense use it to link from HTML to license for scripts (twitter.com/_/status/616744902769135616)
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