#microformats 2015-11-30

2015-11-30 UTC
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@shopl RT @ProjectPeachUK: Our #html5 framework now contains #seo, #microformats, proxy proof #websockets. We keep on improving your #webapp! #Cod… (twitter.com/_/status/671132428140982272)
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@Suske1070 h-recipe · Microformats Wiki http://seenthis.net/index.php?action=seenli&me=9bcs (twitter.com/_/status/671364308798996480)
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Calli !tell tantek I had a spec comment on the 28th. Can you take a look and let me know if you need more info? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20151128
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Calli I'm looking at the discussion on implied u- props from the 30th
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tantek hello Calli
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Loqi tantek: Calli left you a message 7 minutes ago: I had a spec comment on the 28th. Can you take a look and let me know if you need more info? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20151128
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Calli I have my own perspective on implied props: I'm afraid I'm not a fan overall and I haven't implemented them yet. Will be last thing I implement if at all.
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Calli hi Tantek
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Calli One reason for reluctance is that I'm looking at mem-constrained environment and I want to dump all unecessary data as soon as possible
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tantek Calli - they are part of the tradeoff of a huge simplification for many 90% plus simple cases for publishers with a little bit of work on the part of parsers
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Calli the Implied name property in particular looks like it could be pretty large since it will often be text content
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tantek it's simple economics math of lowering barriers for accuracy and work for publishers (across millions) vs. a bit of work for a handful of parser devs
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tantek Calli - if you have specific examples where implied name causes a problem, please share them!
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tantek we are actively looking into documenting and solving any such problems
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tantek but they must be based in real world examples
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tantek not just "could be"
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Calli Will do next time I see one
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Calli Yeah - I was seeing real word examples
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Calli Oh is this one:
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Calli http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://blog.roku.com/blog/2015/11/23/black-friday-deals-sneak-peek-roku-se-roku-3-roku-streaming-stick-tcl-roku-tv/
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Calli Must admit I have assumed this is from implied name - haven't researched to see if it's another issue
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Calli You may well be right about the simplification, but I am still in process of convincing myself of that. It's clear that the markup is simplified. It's not yet clear to me that the mental model for authoring is simplified or that maintenance of markup is simplified. I don't have firm conclusions at this point.
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tantek the simplification was driven specifically by web developer / designer feedback about classic mf1 markup which required explicit markup for names, urls, photos which were so common, and seemed to always require adding extra markup
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tantek and the response to the mf2 solutions from the web design / development community has been very positive
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tantek some of that history has been documented on the wiki on the /microformats2 page
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Calli Sounds good. It's definitely an alternative to microdata and json that don't have implied props.
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tantek indeed - the same web developers were very confused as to why microdata/rdfa/json would come up with even more wordy approaches than classic mf1
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Calli Do you want me to make the case? LOL
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tantek Calli - nah, no need to spend time on it
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tantek I mean unless you truly believe there is some ecosystem benefit to the microdata/rdfa/json approaches
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tantek (ecosystem, as in not just "it makes parsing easier")
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Calli I believe it's a trade-off. I like "easy-to-parse", but I like "easy to explain", "easy to understand", "easy to write", and "easy to read" way more.
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Calli There's often trade-offs between easy-to-write and easy-to-read. It feels like microdata and microformats have different opinions about the relative importance of those.
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Calli Anyway, it's probably clear, but I'm all for limiting the appearance of implied props so proposal to prevent an element that already has a use from contributing to implied prop sounds good. This change would mean that a different element could then provide the implied value though right?
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tantek that is a good question
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Calli The change is not just that an implied prop would be suppressed in some additional cases, but that it could actually get a different value?
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tantek I'm not sure that's a good (easily predictable) result
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tantek I would prefer a more conservative approach, and that is that if the first element found (per the parsing spec) that could/should provide an implied property is suppressed by this new rule (by another explicit property of the same *- prefix on that element), then there is nothing implied for that property
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tantek rather than some sort of weird fallback to another element
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tantek that makes it easier to understand
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tantek and provides an obvious encouragement for the publisher to be explicit in those cases (which I expect to the be the rare exception, not the 90%, and thus it makes sense to ask the publisher to be explicit)
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Calli I might be wrong - maybe the only-of-type requirement prevents what I suggested
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tantek it should
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Calli Actually only-of-type in the existing spec isn't sufficient, would need language you suggest I think
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tantek edited /microformats2-parsing-issues (+97) "/* implied properties when an explicit class is provided */ where to provide input to proposals" (view diff)
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tantek If you agree with the proposed resolution to the issue, could you add your +1, and perhaps add your question / comment asking for that? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_properties_when_an_explicit_class_is_provided
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tantek "that" being the extra language to further clarify the case you noted
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tantek like +1 with this change ...
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tantek or +1 with this additional handling