#microformats 2018-03-14

2018-03-14 UTC
[tantek], [cleverdevil] and tantek joined the channel
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tantek so much logs
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KartikPrabhu tantek: there was a lot of VCP datetime discussed would be great to have your input
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tantek did anyone summarize into questions?
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KartikPrabhu I can try
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KartikPrabhu according to http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing if there is only one value element then the datetime value is parsed as usual i.e.
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KartikPrabhu so <span class="dt-published"><abbr class="value" title="humdinger"></abbr></span> would give published = ["humdinger"]
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu but if the date is specified using many value element then it switches to http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing which then checks for validity of the date and time
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu so sometimes the datetime validity is checked and other times it isn't
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KartikPrabhu so the question was basically: why do such complicated VCP parsing for datetimes at all
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tantek hmm
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tantek not complicated, conservative
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KartikPrabhu yes that is what I thought
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tantek and in short, to increase data quality when using VCP which because it adds multiple elements, may be more fragile
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KartikPrabhu VCP seems to exist mostly for some backcompat reasons no?
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tantek no
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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tantek it's to better match existing markup on the page
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tantek without requiring invasive markup rewriting
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tantek and second, to increase DRY
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KartikPrabhu but then why not check validity of the example <span class="dt-published"><abbr class="value" title="humdinger"></abbr></span> would give published = ["humdinger"] ?
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tantek that's a good why question to note up front
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tantek yeah, single value dt-* parsing should also be conservative
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tantek checks
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KartikPrabhu so parsers should check validity of any dt-* property and ignore if not valid?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: nothing about http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing says many vs single
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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tantek "For all date time properties (as defined in their respective microformats specifications), the following rules apply in addition to (and in some cases replacing) the above value class pattern parsing rules. "
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KartikPrabhu tantek: see point 3 in http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu the date-time parsgin in only triggered on multiple value descendents
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KartikPrabhu otherwise 2 applies
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tantek not according to http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu but that is only triggered on 3.2 step in http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing
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tantek which, since it comes later, it adds more details, to "Basic Parsing"
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu otherwise it is never triggered
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KartikPrabhu 3.2 is the only place that sends you to "datetime parsing rules" and 3.2 is only triggered when "multiple descendents "
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no that's a misunderstanding
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KartikPrabhu oh!
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tantek 3.2 is only in contrast to 3.1
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tantek not to all of basic parsing
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing provides additional rules for any use of "value"
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu oh then that is confusing
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat thought only 3.2 triggered the date time parsing rule
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tantek why?
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KartikPrabhu because that shows up as a substep of 3
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tantek nothing about http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing says any such limitation
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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tantek because 3.2 needs to contrast with 3.1
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tantek that's the "only" aspect, in that context
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tantek not any broader context, and assuming so is an error (unfounded)
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tantek whereas http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing is at the same level in the spec as "Basic Parsing" and thus has just as much weight
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu maybe better to have a 2.5 which says the same thing as 3.2 ?
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tantek no it should be 1.5
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KartikPrabhu this is fine since both phpmf2 and mf2py interpret it as what you are saying
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KartikPrabhu aah yeah 1.5 is also fine
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tantek yes that would be clearer and perhaps reduce that one chance of confusion
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KartikPrabhu wait you mean 5 not 1.5
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KartikPrabhu tantek: there is also this one https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/24
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Loqi [kartikprabhu] #24 Parsing <noscript> tags
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tantek no I mean 1.5
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tantek because once you know it is dt-* property, stop treating it like it is not
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KartikPrabhu are you using decimals instead of list numbering ;P
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tantek haha yes
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KartikPrabhu ok :)
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tantek :)
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Loqi haha
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KartikPrabhu yeah adding that would be clear. and also parser compatible with phpmf2 and mf2py
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tantek I should probably note that that page is under change control like mf2-parsing
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tantek since it is a required part of mf2-parsing
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tantek oh dear we have 5 open issues here http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern-issues#Open_Issues
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Loqi Value Class Pattern Issues
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tantek oops
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tantek sigh ok
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Loqi definitely
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tantek wait I already did note that! http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=value-class-pattern-issues&diff=65666&oldid=38566
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Loqi Value Class Pattern Issues
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tantek KartikPrabhu: can you file an issue to track that? re: move "Basic Parsing" 3.2 somewhere earlier in that algo to conform to publishing expectations and parser interop
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tantek and perhaps cite this thread
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KartikPrabhu ok
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KartikPrabhu doen https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/26
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Loqi [kartikprabhu] #26 vcp: Clarify VCP datetime parsing
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imran87h edited /code-tools (-1) "www.eblogmedia.com" (view diff)
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gRegorLove tantek: Hah, that edit^ is spam in the revision comments, not in the page :)
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gRegorLove Filed a small clarification issue: https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/27
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Loqi [gRegorLove] #27 vcp: Clarify ordinal dates in parsed result
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Zegnat sknebel, I see you closed https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/11 but did that require any clarification in the spec to make sure new implementers do not create conflicting parsers again?
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Loqi [sknebel] #11 backcompat child of mf2 root
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu, thanks for opening that issue 26! I just left a comment to try and explain where my thought process was coming from
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sknebel Zegnat: feel free to propose a clarification! Since everyone agreed on the reading and I didn't have good idea for a change, I considered it enough
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Zegnat Oh darn I missed that after my deep dive into what I considered vague. I’ll think about how I would phrase the clarification in the parsing spec :)
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Zegnat Oh. Wait. You meant on #11 and not on #26?
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sknebel yes
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sknebel sorry
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sknebel my brain isn't awake enough for 25/26
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Zegnat After rereading, yeah, I think it is fine as is. It is probably overkill to explicitly state that “microformats” always means “"h-*" or backcompat roots”.
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aaronpk https://pin13.net/mf2/ is updated to 0.4.0!
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aaronpk xray.p3k.io is updated too! look how nice this checkin with no p-name looks now :D https://xray.p3k.io/parse?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdavid.shanske.com%2F2018%2F03%2F04%2F1821%2F
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@swentel Tagged the first alpha release of the Indieweb module for Drupal 8. Includes webmentions, publishing, microformats, comment creation and micropub. Let's get the party started! https://www.drupal.org/project/indieweb #indieweb #drupal (https://realize.be/notes/1245) (twitter.com/_/status/973910639537254400)
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Zegnat Discuss, is this example microformats object in JSON valid? https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#nested-microformats-objects-p-6
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Zegnat It does not pass my schema (https://gist.github.com/Zegnat/65ed9a9fb0546fb8c4aa0c0b790b8a40) because the nested microformats do not have a separate plain text “value” property.
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk that's true
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Zegnat I am not sure if the value is a hard-required property. I treat it as one. You can obviously get one when you are parsing from HTML. But Micropub is a little different in that you are authoring the mf2 object directly.
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aaronpk wow are you making a json schema for just the mf2 syntax?
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Zegnat That’s what I did. Yes.
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Zegnat I think it is complete. This was one of the few things that I noticed during random testing to not pass.
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Zegnat I am thinking about running it against all JSON files in the test suite
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Zegnat Or ... almost did. I think I didn’t include the rels for now.
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[kevinmarks] that example using summary instead of name feels a bit off
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aaronpk why? it's not a named post
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aaronpk name should be user-authored, but summary is okay to be machine-authored
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Zegnat Summary seems fine there, it is a summary of the rest of the object. The question is if your server is going to do anything with an h-entry lacking both name and content, but that’s up to the different implementations
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[kevinmarks] ah, I think of it as name is short, summary is medium, content is long, and we did have it so that there was almost always a name becasue of implied name.
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[kevinmarks] your distinction makes sense too
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Zegnat [cleverdevil], if you have any thoughts after working on tests and schemas I would love to get your opinion here: https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/22
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Loqi [Zegnat] #22 Is there a definitive version of a type array?
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[tantek] Summary is also used for fallback behavior
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sknebel I have a question about nested microformats
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sknebel the last step in determining the "value" is " else use the parsed property value per p-*,u-*,dt-* parsing respectively " - does that mean just applying the algorithm as if the h-* for the nested microformat didn't exist and put the result of that into "vlaue"
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tantek that sounds right
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sknebel ok. that got lost in the php-parser when reducing the implied p-name, probably because before there always was one
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sknebel filing bug
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tantek sknebel: a-ha I could see that
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tantek since it's a very similar algo
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sknebel for the logs, filed https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/151
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Loqi [sknebel] #151 "value" of nested microformats when no matching property exists
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KartikPrabhu looks good on mf2py
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sknebel yep
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tantek hey has anyone looked at doing a Rust mf2 parser?
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tantek highly recommended as something you could submit to https://foundation.mozilla.org/opportunity/global-sprint/
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sknebel hah, we talked about that just today
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sknebel cc Zegnat
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tantek sknebel: worth starting a stub page about
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sknebel not sure, was more like "could do that", "not sure Rust is the most pressing candidate there, others would probably be more useful" ;)
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KartikPrabhu is there a HTML parser in Rust already? otherwise one would ahve to build that
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sknebel since Mozilla is building a browser in Rust I assume they have a HTML parser, or at least bindings for one
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sknebel question is more if people would build mf-consuming things in Rust
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tantek yes there is Servo - Mozilla's browser engine project written in Rust
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sknebel (I've seen some people experiment with it for webservices, but my general assumption would be that few will take that path since it seems kind of overkill)
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tantek https://github.com/servo/servo/wiki
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KartikPrabhu tantek: vcp question if free
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KartikPrabhu or anyone for that matter
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KartikPrabhu see: http://pin13.net/mf2-dev/?id=20180314232819279
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tantek KartikPrabhu: based on a real world example?
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tantek or theoretical?
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KartikPrabhu here the "value" element is a descendent but not a child so phpmf2 (and mf2py) don't seem to parse it violating to VCP rule http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing 2.
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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KartikPrabhu tantek: modification of an example in the VCP parsing
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tantek LMK when you link to a real world publishing example that is trying to use that
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KartikPrabhu ok fair
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KartikPrabhu then I guess not many things use much of VCP anymore
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tantek there's plenty
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tantek my point is to act upon empirical data, rather than attempting to manufacture data
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tantek because the latter methodology will result in unending work for very little benefit
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KartikPrabhu I for one have not seen much of any VCP in indieweb usage that my site encounters
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu, pin13.net/mf2/ has v0.4.0 now btw
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek: here you go simplified real world example http://pin13.net/mf2-dev/?id=20180314234440988 from http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2009-06-26-microformats-4th-bday#summary. note the dtstart is not parsed
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu mf2py gives start = ["06"]
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KartikPrabhu not sure which is correct
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gRegorLove YYYY isn't valid for the date part
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KartikPrabhu yes I know
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KartikPrabhu I think phpmf2 is doing the correct thing
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KartikPrabhu according to spec but not according to intention of the markup
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gRegorLove Gotcha
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gRegorLove I wonder what the state of VCP was when that wiki vevent was authored
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KartikPrabhu who knows. it is an example in the wild though :P
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[kevinmarks] can someone check https://github.com/microformats/tests/pull/84
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Loqi [kevinmarks] #84 remove nonexistent microformats