#microformats 2020-01-22

2020-01-22 UTC
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aaronpk "micro formats"
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[tantek] it's understandable that people get microdata confused with microformats
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@rustybrick Google will still support microformats for markup and rich results, for now... says @JohnMu https://www.seroundtable.com/google-support-microformats-28872.html https://t.co/uVr462kTPL (twitter.com/_/status/1219958640460754944)
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@Ankit_Main Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://feeds.seroundtable.com/~r/SearchEngineRoundtable1/~3/15c0okw-MRk/google-support-microformats-28872.html (twitter.com/_/status/1219959042774269953)
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@FreeMartinSmar1 Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://dlvr.it/RNWtXF https://t.co/JB5TV2GMvF (twitter.com/_/status/1219959532081696770)
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@topliger1 Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://dlvr.it/RNWtYn https://t.co/z7UIqwJt3v (twitter.com/_/status/1219959532756983808)
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@dragonadvantage Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://dlvr.it/RNWtYV https://t.co/RSBt49HvWN (twitter.com/_/status/1219959533117665286)
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@nageshshukla_ Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://bit.ly/30HR0ol by http://barryrustybrick.com (Barry Schwartz) #SERoundtablepost (twitter.com/_/status/1219959915470520320)
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@AdmStevens Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://dlvr.it/RNWvVd https://t.co/sXGvQddfgX (twitter.com/_/status/1219960920916418565)
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@seroundtable Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now https://ser.bz/2ukjIzo (twitter.com/_/status/1219961986747981824)
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@ShellyHill23 Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://bit.ly/2RGoNKj (twitter.com/_/status/1219962258081624069)
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@WinPhanKyle Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now - http://bit.ly/2Gg476J (twitter.com/_/status/1219962985243979777)
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@rankingplus "Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now" by barry@rustybrick.com (Barry Schwartz) via Search Engine Roundtable https://ift.tt/2RhYivH (twitter.com/_/status/1219963240039489536)
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[jgmac1106] ^^ another reason to recrawl indiemap.org
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@she_reports "Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now" https://ift.tt/2RGjTgw (twitter.com/_/status/1219967012555907073)
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@asifakhanlondon Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://bit.ly/2NOXvjT (twitter.com/_/status/1219967047251132416)
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@mediaprosperity Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now https://ift.tt/2RGjTgw (twitter.com/_/status/1219967728443936769)
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@AmyTaylorSEO Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now https://ift.tt/2RGjTgw (twitter.com/_/status/1219968797026725889)
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@DIY_SEOServices Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now https://ift.tt/2RGjTgw (twitter.com/_/status/1219971522980384768)
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@webhosting2018 Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now https://ift.tt/2NQTxXV #bestwebhosting2018 https://ift.tt/2wgiXG6 (twitter.com/_/status/1219978052786163712)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] ++ agreed. We should support an indiemap recrawl at least annually for this reason
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Loqi [jgmac1106] has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (94 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] I think we should pay someone out of "Support IndieWeb“ or write it up as a mini grant opportunity for data science program
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@seorakeshsingh #Google To Still Support #Microformats; For Now https://www.seroundtable.com/google-support-microformats-28872.html (twitter.com/_/status/1219983847917441025)
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@prospertaru Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now #livelongdigital #tweakmywebsite https://bit.ly/2RBxFAW (twitter.com/_/status/1219986586990972930)
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[Marlin_Forbes] i think we know that now 🙂
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aaronpk gotta get that seo
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aaronpk i like how a googler's random reply to a tweet turns into an entire blog post and twitter bot party
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[tantek] what was the original tweet?
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/JohnMu/status/1219739919268155392
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Loqi [@JohnMu] @suzukik @googlewmc @danbri Yes, we still support them.
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aaronpk also https://twitter.com/JohnMu/status/1219597542318538752
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Loqi [@JohnMu] @FredericJutant @googlewmc We don't have any plans for changes to announce there at the moment. I don't know off-hand how broadly microformats are used, my guess is it's much more than data-vocabulary. That said ... https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=microformats,data-vocabulary,schema.org
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@rustybrick Google has no current plans to deprecate support for microformats https://www.seroundtable.com/google-support-microformats-28872.html https://t.co/JYlKMqymzd (twitter.com/_/status/1219998402735460353)
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@RedRainSEOLLC Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://bit.ly/2Gq8yfr (twitter.com/_/status/1219998664212582400)
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[tantek] what's going on in Brazil?!? https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=microformats,data-vocabulary,schema.org (Brazil shows as blue, microformats dominating)
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@JunaidRana_I Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://dlvr.it/RNXRVv https://t.co/prPDoij6wY (twitter.com/_/status/1220002317656715264)
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@nikhildaiya Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now http://dlvr.it/RNXTtG https://t.co/AhdNtOtLzn (twitter.com/_/status/1220005717509206017)
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@seroundtable Google To Still Support Microformats; For Now https://ser.bz/2ukjIzo (twitter.com/_/status/1220007806511865856)
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[KevinMarks] the mf2 for the breadcrumb example
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[KevinMarks] <div class="h-breadcrumb">
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[KevinMarks] </div>
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[KevinMarks] <a class="h-item" href="http://example.com/dresses">Dresses</a>
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[KevinMarks] <a class="h-item" href="http://example.com/dresses/real">Real Dresses</a>
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[tantek] What's the consumption use-case for that again?
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[tantek] Is it just for Google's search convenience?
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[KevinMarks] showing upwards path in serps apparently https://developers.google.com/search/docs/data-types/breadcrumb
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[tantek] why is that useful for the user?
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[KevinMarks] because hierarchies are exciting if you're a search dweeb?
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[KevinMarks] in XOXO the code is just use <ul><li> 😉
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[tantek] this is why breadcrumbs never took off in the community. the consumption use-case was a yawner at best - no one cared
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aaronpk i used to obsess over breadcrumbs in website design, but i feel like that trend died out many years ago
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aaronpk nobody cares about the hierarchy of your website. they're gonna land on a page from clicking a link somewhere or searching for it, then they're gonna leave the site or at best click some other interesting link on your page
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[KevinMarks] we have a brainstorm page http://microformats.org/wiki/breadcrumbs-brainstorming
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[KevinMarks] which is overcomplicated as it doesn't use default properties (It's from 2013 yay)
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[tantek] yeah
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[tantek] that's a good summary debunking aaronpk
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[tantek] I feel like that should go on the breadcrumbs-brainstorming page at the top
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@kevinmarks ↩️ we never formalized a breadcrumb vocab in microformats, the markup is easy: <div class="h-breadcrumb-list"> <a class="h-breadcrumb" href="http://example.com/dresses">Dresses</a> <a class="h-breadcrumb" href="http://example.com/dresses/real">Real Dresses</a> </div> https://php.microformats.io/?id=20200122161717862 (twitter.com/_/status/1220017845221908480)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ here's how you'd do it with microformats: <div class="h-breadcrumb-list"> <a class="h-breadcrumb" href="http://example.com/dresses">Dresses</a> ≫ <a class="h-breadcrumb" href="http://example.com/dresses/real">Real Dresses</a> </div> https://php.microformats.io/?id=20200122161717862 (twitter.com/_/status/1220018613203230721)
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aaronpk but why
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@kevinmarks ↩️ if you're generating HTML from templates anyway, generating microformats means adding a few classes (and a parsing testcase to your build). Not maintaining another sidefile in an entirely different structure with different syntax. (twitter.com/_/status/1220019164993245184)
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[tantek] oh boy
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@nystudio107 ↩️ It also means making tying the microformat to the HTML in a bidirectionally fragile way. Some extremely good points for using JSON-LD and leaving microformats behind are made below (and Google is moving on to supporting JSON-LD only for future structured data anyway) (twitter.com/_/status/1220019810416963585)
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[KevinMarks] the LD for breadcrumbs is hilarious, because list order isn't a thing
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aaronpk wow those arguments in that screenshot are based on the assumption that you want certain things that are clearly not universally needed in practice
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[tantek] JSON-LD data islands are just more complicated syntax for meta tags
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aaronpk lol
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@aaranged ↩️ I know that you're a huge microformats fan Kevin, but among other things: 1) they're not remotely expressive enough for contemporary structured data requirements; 2) they're HTML-bound, meaning you can't provide data like this https://developers.google.com/actions/media/how-to/create-a-feed (twitter.com/_/status/1220020657037049861)
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aaronpk "contemporary structured data requirements" 😂
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[KevinMarks] lol can't provide a feed
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[tantek] yep, debunk that with h-feed and social readers which have advanced far beyond RSS
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[tantek] why would you trust Google who killed Google Reader with documentation about how to create a feed?
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@aaronpk ↩️ You might be surprised what you can do with Microformats... https://aaronparecki.com/2018/03/12/17/building-an-indieweb-reader Even this tweet originated from my own website using tools built on Microformats. (twitter.com/_/status/1220021316964642816)
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@nystudio107 ↩️ I've found it to be far more scalable and usable than microformats… and while no standard is ever perfect, it's pretty clear that microformats are the "old way" of doing things JSON-LD is what companies like Apple, Google, Pinterest, etc. are all leveraging. For good reason imo (twitter.com/_/status/1220021362561110016)
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aaronpk oops i didn't mention microformats so it didn't show up here: https://aaronparecki.com/2020/01/22/10/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] If all you care about is SEO then do whatever Google says to do this year and you're fine. Today that's JSON-LD, tomorrow it's ???? I need to update this chart for 2020 but as we see, history keeps repeating itself. https://aaronparecki.com/2016/12/1... https://aaronparecki.com/img/1240x0/2020/01/22/10/photo.png
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aaronpk ok i'm done this is a pointless argument
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[tantek] oh boy
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/aaranged/status/1220023205085057024
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Loqi [@aaranged] @aaronpk @kevinmarks @nystudio107 @ChrisFerdinandi What Google sayx. And Bing. And Yahoo. And Yandex. But if all you care about is SEO by all means use what you perceive as the flavor of the day. But if you also care about a robust, developer-friendly, serialization format for linked data then JSON-LD is there for you.
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aaronpk what if i don't care about linked data
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[tantek] yup, appeal to plumbing use-case means you can stop
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aaronpk what is the twitter length limit these days?
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aaronpk uhoh that's not a good sign
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[tantek] tweet character length limit is 280
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aaronpk ok :now: i'm done
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/2020/01/22/12/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Frankly "linked data" is not a priority for me. There's plenty of useful structured data that is not LD, and tbh most developers who use JSON-LD don't even know about the LD part, they just copy the examples and wonder why they have "@context" everyw...
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[tantek] not sure what the length limit is for URLs in tweets which themselves have a fixed length of 20-something
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[tantek] oh boy shots fired
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@nystudio107 ↩️ When I think of "simple, reusable markup" it's JSON-LD, and not microformats, FWIW It's simple, highly reusable, and also unlike microformats, also scales, is highly readable, lacks the bidirectional fragility of microformats, and can easily be generated programmatically (twitter.com/_/status/1220025162881519616)
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aaronpk oh ffs "position": 1 lol [KevinMarks]
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aaronpk is that how they do ordered lists because LD can't?
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[KevinMarks] yes
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aaronpk 😂
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[KevinMarks] I wonder what happens if you use 0-based indexing
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@nystudio107 ↩️ I find the JSON to be very clear as to what is going on. Certainly this example is slightly more verbose... but it's also less fragile, and more extensible. There are examples where microformats have to be contorted due to their interleaving with HTML where JSON-LD is simpler (twitter.com/_/status/1220027984800776192)
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aaronpk I don't know why i felt like I needed to get involved in that discussion. these are never productive.
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@nystudio107 ↩️ I would. Book it! In 2030, we'll assess the state of microformats vs. JSON-LD. $100 sounds fair! (twitter.com/_/status/1220028748260683776)
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[KevinMarks] has github removed rel="me" ? https://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnystudio107.com
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[KevinMarks] or is it only on pro accounts?
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aaronpk could be blocking whatever user agent or IP that site is fetching from
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aaronpk i see it on my profile still
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[KevinMarks] ah, it's not on organisations
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[KevinMarks] only users
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aaronpk ah
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@kevinmarks ↩️ OK. I'll have a look - Your site is at the beginning of microformats support: https://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnystudio107.com (twitter.com/_/status/1220031484934881280)
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@nystudio107 ↩️ I find it simpler to read JSON than I do to read random itemprop= and itemscope= that are sprinkled throughout HTML There are also some objectively awful issues with fragility and scalability that come up with microformats if you use them beyond the most simplistic use cases. (twitter.com/_/status/1220031867820351488)
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@aaronpk ↩️ Microformats != Microdata https://microformats.io tbh I also can't stand the itemprop= itemscope= stuff, it's so messy. That's why I like the Microformats approach instead. (twitter.com/_/status/1220032808791375873)
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[Michael_Beckwit may be a good time to temp mute this room from notifications 😄
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[jgmac1106] I like lurking in discussions to learn, these discussions like hemorrhoids, they painfully flare up, then go away
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[Michael_Beckwit just saying with the google news from yesterday, it may be more “floody” than normal.
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aaronpk "news"
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[tantek] It's worth an update to your article aaronpk 🙂
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[tantek] could also use it to predict the death of RDFa
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[tantek] since even the SemWeb/LD folks have jumped ship to JSON-LD
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aaronpk yeah i've been waiting for that next milestone since 2016
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sknebel O quite like breadcrumbs as a UI thing assuming the website is structured that way, not sure about the value of them being machine readable
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sknebel E.g. I wouldn't expect my browser to parse them, unlike prev/next/up where I'm still annoyed browsers stopped supporting that
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[KevinMarks] well, rel=up makes sense on the penultimate breadcrumb link
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@rustybrick ICYMI: Google has no current plans to deprecate support for microformats https://www.seroundtable.com/google-support-microformats-28872.html https://t.co/FyPjOf6Rc4 (twitter.com/_/status/1220058800515960839)
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@seroundtable Earlier today, Google Still Does Support Microformats; At Least For Now https://ser.bz/2ukjIzo (twitter.com/_/status/1220112924091568128)
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