#microformats 2020-10-30
2020-10-30 UTC
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[schmarty] Any outgoing link is considered a "mention". Microformats markup like u-in-reply-to is only for adding extra semantics like "this entry is a reply to this url". sites that display webmentions will often display these separately from likes or replies as simply "mentions", similar to the way Wordpress blogs show pingbacks.
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[Denver_Prophit] ↩️ [schmarty] https://awesomeopensource.com/project/aaronpk/webmention.io wm-property `mention-of` seems most appropriate for citing a source in my creativework. IMHO
# [Denver_Prophit] ↩️ Sorry forgot to click to send to channel.
# [Denver_Prophit] [aaronpk] I did see your name. I thought it was you. Darn scrapers!
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# [Denver_Prophit] [aaronpk] Start an article that is based on someone else's and expand upon it. Bring in the capability to webmention in the correct way.
# [Denver_Prophit] [aaronpk] Expand upon https://www.seobythesea.com/2014/01/entity-associations-websites-related-entities/ with code snippets and other things the author may have missed and correctly cite the source. IF they enable webmentions I just want to ensure it's done right. I'm still learning mf2 and indieweb. 😃
# [Denver_Prophit] [aaronpk] maybe so? Well, the way I've coded jekyll with some php is write a json, filter wm-property types for display in comments by type.
# [Denver_Prophit] [aaronpk] ok thanks! I wanted something similar to pingback/trackback anyway.
# [Denver_Prophit] It took a while to learn schema.org and write JSON+LD. Been doing that since 2005. Now, I've been exposed to this and I'm a newbie again. 😃
# [Denver_Prophit] GWG sadly, all videos and posts I see come from at or before 2018 with a majority in 2014 so there's that.
# [Denver_Prophit] GWG indieweb implementations & HOWTO and more over, convincing influencers I know it's worth the effort like Bill Slawski who has done public speaking at moz and other places.
# [Denver_Prophit] That would be wonderful GWG and implement some of those proposed properties I saw for h-entry.
# [Denver_Prophit] GWG Not registered. I'm truly camera shy! So, I hope I don't have to show my ugly mug. 😃
# [Denver_Prophit] GWG My angle or hobby is technical SEO. This new / old tech I need to learn how the additional content affects the creativework. Like Google announcing their patent to extract passages and what may trigger one. I'm also a front-end web developer.
# [Denver_Prophit] [aaronpk] & GWG question about in-reply-to? https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/re-citizen-of-indieweb example has reply body. IF I write a 1500 word whitepaper, well... Replies are supposed to be piffy?
# [Denver_Prophit] 1500 words? That would make the receiver end's content bloat.
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KartikPrabhu if you reply is very long, maybe consider making it an article and including a p-summary
# [Denver_Prophit] That makes sense and how I should code how to receive replies on my end.
# [Denver_Prophit] GWG, still... I'm curious how I can credit citations Chicago style and encourage others to do the same. replies just don't seem logical? ``<cite class="u-comment h-cite">`` Something like that.
# [Denver_Prophit] GWG I suppose? If I code a comment to not display the body & just the summary, that takes away from the whole purpose of making a basic reply, doesn't it?
# [Denver_Prophit] Like "I really enjoyed your article! I have question xyz" as a comment from another website.
# KartikPrabhu [Denver_Prophit]: if there is a summary then show summary and link to actual webpage with the reply (if it is too long), if there is no summary display the whole reply.
# KartikPrabhu For the second you might want to restrict the word/character count if you want
# [Denver_Prophit] KartikPrabhu I disagree. When you write an article and cite sources, Chicago style, only certain things are entered. `in-reply-to` doesn't seem to fit that purpose. I guess I need to understand how to display a webmention that is actually a citation of mine/someone else's article using MF2 and webmention.io extracts the json. I'm learning what that might be with just a simple h-cite I guess. Still reading as much as I can.
# [Denver_Prophit] KartikPrabhu My endpoint code looks for wm-property and runs through conditionals as to how to display that webmention
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gRegorLove The `u-comment h-cite` above doesn't seem correct. u-comment is usually used when marking up replies from other sites on your post
# KartikPrabhu [Denver_Prophit]: yes replies are not the same as citing articles (Chicago style or otherwise)
# gRegorLove Not aware of any special parsing/handling of h-cite if someone receives a webmention with it
# gRegorLove Consumers of h-cite is actually something we're looking for, to advance the h-cite specification from draft status
# [Denver_Prophit] [gRegorLove] that's been my quandary all day long. 😃 The reason I cited schema subjectOf or isBasedOn
# [Denver_Prophit] GWG There's a topic for your zoom. h-cite MF2
# KartikPrabhu [Denver_Prophit]: I think h-cite mf2 is well-developed it is just that no one is consuming and displaying citations to their own posts
# [Denver_Prophit] I'd love to be able to display comments and other sites that cite my article
# [Denver_Prophit] KartikPrabhu I'm thinking of the whole internet being able to list websites that cite their article similar to how google scholar can do.
# KartikPrabhu sure. If someone want to actually consume h-cite then yes it should be brainsotrmed
# [Denver_Prophit] Because, then, I can create a comment entry on my site and make a in-reply-to and expand their content with my thoughts.
# KartikPrabhu but it is more about consuming and displaying not the mf2 spec per se
# [Denver_Prophit] I don't follow KartikPrabhu? In my website code, I need conditionals to display various types of webmention types. Can you expand what you mean?
# KartikPrabhu right. so it your use case for consuming the mf2 markup of some other website which has cited your post
# [Denver_Prophit] KartikPrabhu and vice versa. Extending the conversation and crediting the source.
# KartikPrabhu sure
# KartikPrabhu for replies that has been pretty much settled by people consuming in-reply-to
# KartikPrabhu you want to do the same with just citations
# KartikPrabhu but still that is not an issue of the mf2 spec but ow you would like to consume the mf2 markup
# [Denver_Prophit] KartikPrabhu correct! Add a section to my content that aggregates the total citations and then markup, chicago style in mf2.
# KartikPrabhu right. I don't think anyone else has had that use-case yet
# KartikPrabhu I just show those as mentions
# [Denver_Prophit] The remote end would need to send information to populate the citation
# KartikPrabhu sure the sender would have to have mf2 markup
# [Denver_Prophit] KartikPrabhu there's an HTML5 element spec for cite. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/cite
# KartikPrabhu so they would have a h-entry inside which there is a h-cite for your post
# KartikPrabhu yes I know about the HTML cite element
# [Denver_Prophit] Sorry I didn't know you well enough to know if you knew or didn't know. 😃
# KartikPrabhu no worries
# KartikPrabhu but your question is more about how you should consume it
# KartikPrabhu if the sender has no markup then I don't think there is anyway
# [Denver_Prophit] KartikPrabhu the sender and receiver. I hadn't seen any writeup about how to go about it.
# KartikPrabhu yes, there isn't any writeup because no one yet has expresed interest in consuming just a h-cite
# [Denver_Prophit] As [gRegorLove] mentioned, it's in draft. When I do research articles, I cite my sources and went them to get credit and link back. Make sense?
# [Denver_Prophit] want*
# [Denver_Prophit] Just as the other side should then be able to aggregate cites and display them in a way they choose such as Chicago style.
# KartikPrabhu yes. I undestand your use-case. I am saying it is a new use-case, so there isn't any guideline yet
# [Denver_Prophit] Very productive. I'm glad to know it's in draft. I had been asking all day long. lol For now, I'll just mf2 h-cite and worry about the webmention, later. 😃
# gRegorLove If the h-cite is nested in h-entry, which I'd expect, parsing and displaying them is going to be difficult since you have to look through all the nested h-cite objects and compare their URLs to yours
# gRegorLove vs properties like u-in-reply-to and u-bookmark-of, which parse as properties of the h-entry itself, and are easier for consumers to do somethin gwith
# [Denver_Prophit] gRegorLove when I read the purpose of u-bookmark-of it was not defined to cite an article. Neither is u-in-reply-to. `<cite><a href="http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/0.html">Nineteen Eighty-Four</a></cite> by George Orwell (Part 1, Chapter 1).` Is what I'd like to have. extending cite class of h-cite and all the other portions within the tag getting it's appropriate attributes like name, url, date, et al.
# gRegorLove Here's a mockup of the parse: http://php.microformats.io/?id=20201030034049062
# gRegorLove I'm not suggesting using u-bookmark-of or u-in-reply-to. Those are incorrect for that use-case
# gRegorLove Just comparing how those properties are easier to consume vs the h-cite in the `children` of that parsed example^
# gRegorLove Updated example with your <cite>: http://php.microformats.io/?id=20201030034430484
# [Denver_Prophit] [gRegorLove] is this getting closer? http://php.microformats.io/?id=20201030034548769 Not sure what to put for last accessed time that you'd find in a citation?
# gRegorLove All properties are optional, so you don't have to publish it. It would be the date/time that you accessed the URL you're citing though.
# gRegorLove That h-cite looks fine, but that would be a standalone citation -- no content/commentary of your own.
# gRegorLove I thought you were talking about citing things within your articles
# gRegorLove Which is my second example
# gRegorLove you probably want the content of the citation in the h-cite like my example, too
# [Denver_Prophit] [gRegorLove] I usually posts my citation sources at the end of an article. Not within it. So, it would be a `<aside>` inside the `<article>` I think.
# gRegorLove Sure, I'm talking about parsed results not necessarily visual appearance on the page
# gRegorLove Your citations are associated with your article, so I'd expect you'd want them to parse inside the h-entry. Otherwise consumers would parse an h-entry and then one or more h-cites, no connection between them.
# [Denver_Prophit] Correct. I left out the parent for brevity sake 😃
# gRegorLove The main thing I was trying to show with the 'full' example is that the citations are child elements, so harder for consumers to do something with
# [Denver_Prophit] Sorry my thinking is pairing json data file with a jekyll partial to iterate x number of sources I'd cite in my article.
# [Denver_Prophit] Usually are less than 5. Nothing mammoth to deal with there. 😃
# [Denver_Prophit] On the other website, though... there could be hundreds of bloggers citing that source.
# [Denver_Prophit] Doesn't wikipedia do something similar to citations with superscript and a list at the bottom of the article?
# [Denver_Prophit] I just think it would be nice for webmention to kick in if someone cites my article. Something for me to display in interactions
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# gRegorLove Understood. You would need to build something to consume the h-cites. Most implementations currently would show "[url] mentioned this"
# gRegorLove Heading out for the night
# [Denver_Prophit] [gRegorLove] I guess so. I use a php script to write json from webmention.io and conditional on the `wm-property` So, I'm lost on how to implement how I'd like to display citations of my article and uniformly document how to consume that webmention? My site cites sources. Their site adds new webmention that stands out from the other webmention types as h-cite. "123 sites referenced this article and list out the website, url,
# [Denver_Prophit] dt-published etc. I hope that's explaining what I'm wanting to do?
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# gRegorLove [Denver_Prophit] webmention.io usage would be a conversation for #indieweb-dev (#dev on Slack)
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# [Denver_Prophit] Yep [gRegorLove] I just wanted to make sure that I got the microformat down first.
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