#microformats 2020-12-04

2020-12-04 UTC
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btrem https://microformats.org/wiki/menu-examples does not exist, and I can't create it. It looks like from the process page that I should start with that. If that's correct, can you create that page? Then I can start adding example menus.
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btrem edited /menu (+256) "Initial contribution to explain the purpose of a proposed microformat for restaurant menus" (view diff)
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tantek created /menu-examples (+410) "stub per process" (view diff)
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[tantek] btrem done! ^
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btrem Thank you kind sir.
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+3374) "Initial examples of restaurant menus on the web" (view diff)
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btrem How does Loqi know that the btrem in the irc is the same as the Btrem on the wiki? Cool that it (she? he?) does. (:
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btrem edited /menu-examples (-10) "Removes stub template" (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+0) "Changes wording in page intro" (view diff)
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btrem [tantek] I have a list of examples posted (as Loqi has informed us). (: Maybe it make sense to also create the menu-formats and menu-brianstorming pages.
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[tantek] btrem++ thank yoU!
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Loqi btrem has 3 karma over the last year
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btrem Sure. And man, that karma comes quick. Nearly knocked me off my feet.
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btrem Sorry, I'll get my coat. (:
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[tantek] 🙂
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btrem Well, we all shine on!
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btrem Ok, I'll stop now. Promise.
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tantek created /menu-formats (+184) "stub" (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+18) "Used abbr template for beer abbreviations." (view diff)
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tantek created /menu-brainstorming (+473) "stub" (view diff)
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[tantek] And that's it for me for the night. Let me know if you get stuck btrem, otherwise will check again in the morning 🙂
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btrem Sounds good, thanks for your help.
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btrem edited /menu-brainstorming (+823) "Suggests using h-product for menu items. Changes wording on use of h-card." (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-brainstorming (+260) "Notes missing container mf for menu items marked up with h-product" (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+24) "/* T.S. McHugh's Irish Pub */ Fixes abbreviations (changes {{abbr}} template to html abbr element)" (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+8) "/* T.S. McHugh's Irish Pub */ Inserts missing word from sentence fragment" (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+527) "/* Examples */ Adds intro describing common features of menus on the web." (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+410) "/* Examples */ Adds paragraph describing category names." (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+66) "Moves general description of menus to a new "overview" section. Renames example sub headings." (view diff)
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kevin marks edited /menu-brainstorming (+248) "/* Brainstorming */ agree p-caetgory is good" (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-brainstorming (+898) "/* Brainstorming */ Adds discussion of menu container names." (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (+1463) "Adds section for French restaurants with two example restaurants." (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-examples (-67) "/* Examples */ Reorganizes sections." (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-brainstorming (+331) "Adds suggestion for menu sections." (view diff)
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btrem edited /menu-brainstorming (+77) "Adds sig" (view diff)
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btrem I'm not sure how to research restaurant menu formats. When you enter those terms in a web search, you get swamped with MS Word template links.
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btrem If you search for web menu formats, you get articles on navigation menus. :/
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btrem The only example I can find for a restaurant menus web format is from schema.org. They have a menu schema with *scores* of properties. The complexity is absurd.
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btrem They used to show adoption rates, but no longer do. Given the complexity, probably not much.
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[KevinMarks] look at foursquare/yelp maybe? Or what delivery service ask for?
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[KevinMarks] also look at templates on wix/squarespace/wordpress - see if there is commonality
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[KevinMarks] a lot of the point of this is, as you say, to find the most common subset of fields that many places use - list out the fields that each one has, what they're called and so on, then look for the overlap
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btrem I can look at menus, but IIUC, menu-format is to document formats, not examples. I'm going by recipe-format, which lists different markup formats (recipe book xml, reml, etc.).
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[tantek] btrem, yeah, often times there isn't a lot of prior formats for something, but we should still document what exists
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[tantek] yes, markup formats, not layout formats 🙂
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[KevinMarks] yes, sorry, examples is for layouts and pages, formats for existing structures
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[KevinMarks] somewhat related, I just found https://medium.com/tock/weve-built-a-website-to-check-if-you-are-overpaying-for-opentable-there-s-a-40-chance-you-are-b5fe1c8c81aa
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[KevinMarks] we could maybe talk to Brian about menu formats - he used to do open data at google an now is CTO of Tock https://www.red-bean.com/fitz/bio/
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btrem re: Open Table overcharging: I'm well aware of them. I could at great length about their sordid practices. As to the specific charge, it happens.
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btrem When they sign you up, they do make sure you understand the importance including the ref code.
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btrem But a developer could still miss that step.
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btrem Also, Open Table software used to be bad. Like, embarrassingly bad. Shockingly bad. Just a real cluster. Bad.
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btrem It is better now, but still crappy imho.
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btrem [tantek] I'm happy to document what exists. I just can't find anything. As I said, we searches turn up /print/ formats, i.e., MS Word templates for menus. The only /web/ format I can find is schema.org's menu:
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btrem https://schema.org/Menu
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btrem But the fact that schema.org have created a menu schema doesn't mean it's actually in use. I have not yet seen an example in the wild.
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[tantek] it's ok to both document that it exists and that no known examples of it in use exist in the wild (so it's a theoretical proposal)
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btrem Ok, I'll add it right now.
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[tantek] *and* your criticisms of complexity
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[tantek] that's also very useful from a subject matter expert
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btrem How mean can I be on the wiki? >:->
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[tantek] as neutral tone as you can
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[tantek] Wikipedia has some good guidance on this, let me see if I can find it
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[tantek] This may be overkill but will hopefully help provide some guidance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criticism
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btrem Oh, I was being a smart-a#!@. I'm not going to be sweary on the wiki. But when I tried to interact with schema.org, I was pretty sweary when I vented. Fortunately, I live by myself, so no one had to listen to me. (:
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[tantek] you're welcome to share your personal experience of frustration as well, especially if there were specific technical aspects of the format which were the cause
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sebbu i just had a hard time deciding which of the (at least 4) different schema/purl/dc to use, especially since none was perfectly adapted to my usecase
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btrem edited /menu-formats (+1614) "Adds schema.org Menu type." (view diff)
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btrem sebbu What was your use case?
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btrem [tantek] My frustration was more general. schema.org are on this bizarre mission to account for every variation and edge case, no matter how marginal.
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sebbu i wanted to retrive the books / mangas / light novels / web novels / ebooks / fanfictions i was reading, along with my reading position (very important, which volume/chapter/page i'm at), and details about the book/etc, like synopsis, author, translator (group?), recommendations, genre, tags, etc... and *merge* data from different sources (websites) so that i could say "this book on this site is the
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sebbu same as this book from this other site"
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sebbu comics / bd too
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sebbu so i couldn't decide how to store it
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sebbu ideally, there would be a standard format, and i'ld convert from/to the format of the various website
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btrem So this was for personal use? i.e., you weren't looking for a way to markup existing web content? Or did I misunderstand you?
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[KevinMarks] sebbu - have you looked at OpenLibrary's format? They deal with multiple editions etc.
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btrem [tantek] In fact, when I got involved with schema.org, there was no Menu type, and I was trying to gauge interest. Though some folks thought it was a good idea, *months* went by with absolutely no action.
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btrem ..._but_ months went by....
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[KevinMarks] https://openlibrary.org/dev/docs/api/books
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[KevinMarks] they have already mapped a lot of identifiers, and they're a wiki so you contributing mappings there helps others too
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sebbu btrem, yes it was for personnal use, but like afterwards i might add books to goodreads or other
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sebbu and the issue is that it isn't (yet) published books, so they don't have ISBN & the lot
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sebbu especially if it's fanfiction
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sebbu and like how do i store chapters (that gets updated daily), or my reading position ?
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sebbu for now it's on my localhost, so i'm the only user, but afterwards it might be online, and available for others, with an API
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sebbu (the reading position is the single most important thng of my project)
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[KevinMarks] AO3 has a kind of API for fanfic too. One thing that could work for reading position is the fragmention idea - the last sentence you read as an anchor.
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btrem Another search fail: "how to mark up restaurant menu" gets a list of articles about /price/ markup, instead of markup languages. (There is one article from 2017 about the new schema.org Menu type.)
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