#microformats 2021-02-20
2021-02-20 UTC
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# 
btrem JackyAlcin[m] What is the microformat that can handle opening hours? I was under the impression that it wan an effort that got started, but never finished.
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# btrem Hmm, what would the event p-name be?
# btrem Well, what would a consuming application have to consume?
# btrem Just dt-start and dt-end?
# btrem I guess I'm wondering if a consumer would be able to make sense of that.
# btrem I looked into a few months ago, when I was mucking around with a format for food menus and an include pattern.
# btrem I agree, it'd be nice to have something. At the time, I couldn't really come up with an opening hours spec that would work for the seemingly endless variations.
# btrem Part of the problem is that visible data is rarely in a machine readable format, so opening hours vocabularies rely on hidden data, and the visible and invisible tend to fall out of sync.
# btrem There is a need. It is *very* common for businesses to discover that the hours that Google or Yelp *think* they are open are wrong.
# btrem So businesses must be vigilant in entering the same data over and over again.
# btrem And people who rely on Google/Yelp/et. al. are likely to be steered wrong when it comes to whether a business is open.
# btrem It was a regular feature of the restaurants where I use to work. Then the pandemic hit. :(
# btrem Yeah, when it started, we were told a few months and everything would be sorted out. I was less optimistic. I figured the better part of 2020, *maybe* a bit into 2021, but it'd be nearly over. I did not imagine it would go on for this long. And I was being intentionally pessimistic.
# btrem There won't be any hard end to this catastrophe. It will sort of gradually get better. But it's hard for restaurants e.g. to determine "ok, now we should start rehiring." So things are very tenuous.
# btrem I feel really awful for the kitchen people, who did not get any benefits, no payout, no unemployment, nothing.
# btrem Ok, enough whining from me.
# btrem Back to figuring out why my webmentions are not working.
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# btrem I've already said I'm done. I'm back to banging my head against the wall re: webmentions.
# btrem jacky I thought that was what you were suggesting earlier.
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# btrem I suppose maybe a series of h-events with no title or summary.
# btrem So a business would have to use some sort of cal app that can generate h-events.
# btrem If only the folks who make the software could be convinced to allow clients to export data in open formats. I think that'd be a tough sell.
# btrem Can a iCalendar feed have a name? Then you could name the calendar "opening hours".
# btrem That seems way too easy. What's the catch?
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[tantek] jacky, stubbed this, feel free to expand: https://microformats.org/wiki/opening-hours-brainstorming#calendar_of_unnamed_events
# btrem Well, so e.g. Google or Yelp or a phone app would *know* that the feed tells you when the restaurant/bookstore/what have you is open.
# btrem What do you mean?
# btrem Oh, right. We chatted right by each other.
# btrem Hmm, this seems too easy. Like why didn't anyone think of it before? There *must* be something we're not thinking about. :)
# btrem I'd very much like it if instead of <link> it were <div>. Visible data.
# btrem Or `<div class="h-x-hours"><span class="h-event">...`.
# 
jacky (venue info: https://indieweb.org/venue#How_To_Publish)
# btrem Yeah. I just feel like a feed will be out of sync in situations were the it were maintained indepdent of the visible data.
# btrem But yeah, a discoverable feed would be useful.
# tantek edited /Special:Log/newusers () "created new account User:Jacky: requested by user" (view diff)
# btrem edited /opening-hours-brainstorming (+213) "/* calendar of unnamed events */ suggests a type for opening hours" (view diff)
# btrem Yeah, I was trying to write up example code, and ran into a problem. How do you markup the time for a day? The datetime attribute can be just a time, but then how do you attach that to a day of the week?
# btrem I don't know if `datetime` can be shoehorned into an opening hours spec. Which is I think one of the long standing problems.
# jacky edited /opening-hours-brainstorming (+962) "/* calendar of unnamed events */ add example of using h-event for open hours" (view diff)
# jacky edited /opening-hours-brainstorming (+3) "/* calendar of unnamed events */ add bullet points" (view diff)
# btrem The datetime attribute is incorrect. Gotta be 24 hours. So 18:00 not 6pm.
# jacky edited /opening-hours-brainstorming (+10) "/* Jacky's Idea for Rendering a Week of Hours */" (view diff)
# jacky edited /opening-hours-brainstorming (+4) "/* Jacky's Idea for Rendering a Week of Hours */ correct timestamsp" (view diff)
# btrem There are i18n issues, of course. Monday in en, lundi in fr, montag in de, etc. So how do we make them machine readable and i18n friendly?
# btrem Not sure I follow. The problem with datetime is coming up with a machine readable version of human readable data as I see it.
# btrem Right.
# btrem I actually don't know much about h-feed.
# btrem So I think I need to read up on that so I can follow what you're doing.
# btrem I gathered that much.
# jacky http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed has some info
# btrem I just never had any use for it. Or maybe I did but didn't realize it!
# btrem Yeah, I know there are articles on the wiki. Like I said, I'll need to read up on and think about it a bit.
# btrem This could be a game changer!
# btrem A business could nest opening hours in their h-card, and a phone browser could tell a user "open right now" or "closed".
# btrem That would be a genuinely useful service for people, and thus I imagine attractive for publishers. I'd think.
# btrem jacky++
# btrem for the h-feed ical idea!
# btrem Yep. Like the way Yelp does it. Except Yelp often gets the hours wrong.
# btrem a flag?
# btrem Ah.
# btrem Well, it's 7:00pm here (I'm in U.S., pst, UT - 08:00). So I think I'll start wandering around in my kitchen getting some sort of meal going.
# btrem I'm going to read up on h-feed and maybe try to create hours for the restaurants I used to work at. I find problems when I have real data to work with.
# btrem ...problems to solve...
# btrem West coast?
# btrem Whereabouts?
# btrem Seattle for me.
# btrem Nor have I been to San Francisco.
# btrem Definitely on my list of things to do. I want to go the massive record store there. (I'm blanking on the name atm.)
# btrem Ok, nice chatting. I'm off to dinner. I'll be adding something to the wiki at some point, or chatting here, about the opening hours thingy.
# btrem Yep, Amoeba. I will go there one day. And spend too much money. But not any time soon, because (a) pandemic, and (b) unemployment. But someday. :)
pmlnr_test, pmlnr_test2, pmlnr_test3, hendursa1, pmlnr_test4, KartikPrabhu, pmlnr_test1, [KevinMarks], hendursaga, [snarfed], [tantek], [tw2113_Slack_], [fluffy], [Ramiro_Ruiz] and btrem joined the channel
# btrem I'm adding h-feed to my site I already had lists of h-entry, so I'm just adding the container microformat.
# btrem Does it make sense to have more than one h-feed on the site?
# btrem Like, on the home page, I have the 10 most recent articles. And on /articles/ is the list of all articles. And on /articles/2021/ all articles from this year. So can/should I have h-feed markup on each of those pages?
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KartikPrabhu yes. having more that one h-feed is fine
# btrem Thanks. :)
# KartikPrabhu it is also ok to have more that one h-feed on the same page, but not sure if readers do anything special with that
# btrem Interesting. I suppose at a minimum you'd need a p-name if there were more than one h-feed on a page.
# btrem Speaking of which, there's no .p-name on the home page because there's no convenient name. I could add one in the html and hide it via css, but is there any reason to? What is the value of .p-name in .h-feed?
# KartikPrabhu yes, it is good to markup a p-name specially in the multiple feed cas
# KartikPrabhu I think readers use p-name to display that name in as the feed title
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# btrem Hmm, maybe I need to specifically name it on my home page, then. I think I need to read a bit more about h-feed, specifically what parsers do when there isn't a p-name.
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[KevinMarks] you can have an implied feed with multiple h-entry on a page; the h-feed is to add feed-level information, so the name, summary, photo
# [KevinMarks] also can do feed-level author instead of repeating it per entry
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