#microformats 2021-06-22

2021-06-22 UTC
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] do you have any thoughts for microformat.org's 16th anniversary?
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[tantek] or any particularly prominent things from the past year come to mind?
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[tantek] goes to clean-up a few more specs and drafts
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[tw2113_Slack_] besides people remembering they exist?
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[tantek] is that prominent?
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[tw2113_Slack_] i'd say more long lasting impression than prominent, but i'm also just trying to include some bits of humor
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tantek edited /h-card-issues (-5) "use GH issues" (view diff)
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tantek edited /h-card (-5) "editorial: fragments for status and participate, dedup IRC line" (view diff)
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@ochtendgrijs ↩️ Ondertussen draait Apache op Drupal. Mogelijk probeer ik nog om op basis van de homepage m’n eigen RSS te genereren. Dat zou makkelijker zijn als er voor microformats was gekozen. (twitter.com/_/status/1407234126072225792)
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[KevinMarks] Nothing stands out from this year, though that's true in a broader sense too. The idea of adding CI tests to check that your microformats still work may be worth emphasising
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rockorager Good morning, microformatters!
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barnaby greetings rockorager
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rockorager I am working on some webmention receiver stuff, and made a node implementation of the representative h-card parsing algorithm
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rockorager I went to add the microformats wiki and lo-and-behold, you need an account!
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rockorager So...could someone add it to the wiki for me :) ?
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rockorager https://microformats.org/wiki/representative-h-card-parsing#Implementations
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barnaby sure, let me know the details and I’ll add it
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rockorager And here is the repo:
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rockorager https://github.com/rockorager/representative-h-card
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barnaby hmm we should really get indieauth working on the mf wiki at some point
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rockorager Gracias!
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rockorager Yeah I was kind of surprised to see that it wasn't indieauth-icized
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barnabywalters edited /representative-h-card-parsing (+103) "/* Implementations */ added rockorager/representative-h-card" (view diff)
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barnaby I assume there was discussion about it at some point, and a reason not to migrate. possibly due to wanting to support existing accounts, and mediawiki not supporting multiple authentication options? but I don’t know exactly
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rockorager Working through the authorship-spec and the representative-h-card algorithm...I noticed that at no point does the authorship spec say to use a top-level h-card from the page in question
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rockorager So on example.org/page, if there is a top-level h-card but no other reference to an author, you wouldn't *technically* define that top level as the author
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rockorager Which I guess makes sense for sites with many authors, the top level would be the org's h-card and not the author's. But presumably they'd have an authorship reference *somewhere* else
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rockorager Anyways, it seemed like as a last ditch effort...after checking h-entry.author, h-feed.author, rel=author, then a top-level h-card on that page could be used
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rockorager (This may be more an indieweb vs microformats discussion, apologies if it's the wrong place for it)
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barnaby rockorager: “7.4 if the h-entry's page has 1+ h-card with url == author-page URL, use first such h-card, exit.” is close but still relies on there being an explicit author URL somewhere
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barnaby IIRC my mf-cleaner getAuthor function uses the first h-card which shares a domain with the post URL as fallback if it can’t find anything else
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barnaby and yes, this would probably be more of an #indieweb-dev discussion, as authorship is defined on the indieweb wiki
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[tantek] I omitted a “plain” top level h-card like that because we found too many false positives at the time (top level h-cards that did NOT represent the author
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[tantek] It is better to have no author info, than mistaken author info
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[tantek] Maybe that’s worth capturing in the design methodology of authorship and/or representative h-card.
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barnaby From #indieweb:
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barnaby GWG: the h-card spec mentions p-tz https://microformats.org/wiki/h-card#Reserved_properties
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barnaby but says it’s “reserved” and “not much used”
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barnaby not entirely sure what reserved means in this context
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GWG barnaby: I was talking human design though
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GWG I know I could mark it up in my h-card
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barnaby ah, sorry. timezone name in Continent/City form then?
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GWG barnaby: Probably, the question is more what I posted in #indieweb
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GWG In the dt-published markup, I'll always have the offset, so this is purely visual
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barnaby GWG: makes sense, I thought you were asking how to show the timezone you can usually be found in, on your profile
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[tantek] reserved as in don't propose a random made-up p-tz property
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barnaby so it just means “don’t propose this”? even when it gives an example of how it could be marked up?
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[tantek] it's going to be a hard one to "get right", as the way timezones work in vcard/ical is very weird, and timezones as a whole are an iffy thing to denote (quite the disconnect between complexity, automated processing ability, actually representing what a user would want to show/display or already does on their homepage, and actually representing something useful to parse and do something with)
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[tantek] the example should probably be stricken if there is one
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[tantek] or at a minimum demoted to a "proposal"
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[tantek] there's certainly no ecosystem of publishers & consumers supporting p-tz in any meaningful interoperable way
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barnaby I tried to look up the vcard timezone issues, and the vcard spec timezone database footnote links to an ftp URL :/
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barnaby time for an ftp;dr in addition to js;dr perhaps?
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barnaby so if I understand correctly, the properties listed under https://microformats.org/wiki/h-card#Reserved_properties are all properties found in vcard but which don’t (yet) make sense in h-card?
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barnaby I’m wondering if there’s a better term to use than “reserved”
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barnaby or at least if we can add some clearer explanation of their status
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barnabywalters edited /h-card (+729) "/* Reserved properties */ removed example, clarified status of reserved properties" (view diff)
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barnaby ^^^ [tantek] if you have similar comments about why the other reserved properties have that status, feel free to add or let me know here. I have my suspicions about why they weren’t used, but wasn’t part of the mf1->mf2 migration so don’t want to write something inaccurate
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barnabywalters edited /h-card (+8) "/* Examples in the wild */ moved some examples to offline" (view diff)
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[tantek] barnaby++ thanks
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Loqi barnaby has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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barnabywalters edited /h-card (+91) "/* Examples in the wild */ linked to indieweb wiki examples" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /h-card (+771) "/* Implementations */ added some of the more notable indieweb software which publishes/consumes h-card" (view diff)
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barnaby is there a summary of current mf2 pronoun markup anywhere? there are many different proposals, examples and discussions spread across the MF and IW wikis
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Zegnat I am not sure there is a "current mf2 pronoun markup", other than running with any of the many proposals. Does not feel like the community as a whole has landed anywhere yet, last I checked.
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barnaby the current state of pronoun markup proposals, then
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barnaby seems like at least for publishing, there are enough IRL examples to start comparing usage
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Zegnat Probably. I guess https://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming#Pronouns is the main document. If there are other explorations out there that would probably be the right place to collect them
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[tantek] Zegnat, looks like /pronouns currently redirects to that section, which has grown large enough that it's likely worth moving to its own page (replacing that redirect with the actual content), leaving perhaps a 2 sentence summary in the brainstorming page
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[tantek] we do also have a separate /gender page which has even more specific pages if you'd like to see a model of how the content could be split up according to microformats process methods
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[tantek] since obviously /gender & /pronouns are related but different things
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barnaby [tantek]: also very curious about the pronoun and h-pronoun markup you’re using, which doesn’t seem to be documented anywhere
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[tantek] what? pretty sure I copied that from Zegnat or someone
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barnaby could be, your site is the only example I’ve seen which uses h-pronoun
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barnaby although the MF wiki examples from Zegnat’s site might be out of date?
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[tantek] barnaby, more examples (in list form) here: https://indieweb.org/pronoun#IndieWeb_Examples
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Zegnat I still do u-pronoun, so not fro me. It looks like the thing that sknebel suggested on the brainstorm.
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barnaby yeah Zegnat’s site uses a different format, no h-pronoun
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[tantek] I'm guessing I may have looked at some of those other examples and copied something? hmmm
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barnaby I know, I read all the IW and MF wiki pronoun pages already
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[tantek] barnaby, feel free to expand that section https://indieweb.org/pronoun#IndieWeb_Examples into subheadings for each person, with analysis of the markup of the example (see https://indieweb.org/video#IndieWeb_Examples for an example of IndieWeb Examples with explicit analysis of the markup used)
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barnaby what’s the current thinking on documenting stuff like this on the IW vs MF wiki? it’s really spread around at the moment
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[tantek] (I did that a while ago (on the video page) as part of trying to see if the markup used was consistent enough to help advance the u-video property)
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barnaby IW wiki for informal discussion, MF wiki for going through the microformats process?
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[tantek] good q. microformats wiki uses very short example citations, only in list form
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barnaby yeah but then there’s the brainstorming pages on the MF wiki, which have discussion and longer examples
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[tantek] IW wiki provides much more expanded / explanatory examples, often with a subheading/section per example
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[tantek] brainstorming is very different from documenting examples
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[tantek] documenting examples is about citing real world examples, and then extracting / documenting the markup found therein
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[tantek] brainstorming is more aspirational / inventing something, then providing an "example" of what it *could* look like
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barnaby in that case, this section needs some wiki gardening, as it’s mostly a collection of real-world examples https://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming#Pronouns
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[tantek] those are *VERY* different (empirical vs theoretical) and best not to confuse them
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barnaby agreed, but that’s clearly not how people are currently using the brainstorming pages!
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barnaby looks like it needs some cleanup and clarification
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[tantek] less wiki gardening, and more restructuring. real-world examples would go on a /pronouns-examples page (per /process )
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sknebel Zegnat: I proposed something? was that an attempt to get the language thing in there? (/me has no recollection right now...)
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Zegnat I use u-pronoun, you wrote that you would prefer a textual label + link, so some form of h-*, sknebel
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[tantek] this is why I directed you to the /gender page for a structure to consider copying for /pronouns (top level), /pronouns-examples (documentation of real world publishing of pronouns content), /pronouns-formats (any existing attempts to provide formal structured formats either in plaintext or in markup), and /pronouns-brainstorming
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sknebel Zegnat: ah right, not for language, for text + link, gotcha
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[tantek] barnaby, start / re-read here for more on those different kinds of pages (*-examples, *-formats, *-brainstorming) https://microformats.org/wiki/process#Document_Current_Behavior
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barnaby okay, as it seems like pronoun markup is ready to start the mf process, I’ll stub those pages and collect all the examples I can find
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barnaby and work primarily on the MF wiki, using the IW wiki as a source
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[tantek] I think it's great to use the IW wiki to document *indieweb* examples in particular more extensively, and then cite that
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[tantek] like from people in the community
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barnaby we also mention on the wiki that any proposed h-card properties should also be proposed to vCard, how seriously are we taking that at the moment?
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barnaby seems like there’s already some discussion of it https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/vcarddav/FCjVznQHsmtPPLmv2z69OcxL8u0/
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[tantek] the *-examples documented on the microformats wiki are more often from *anywhere* (not just personal websites), and very often not from folks in the community, more of a "anything on the web" reach
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[tantek] yes the higher level goal there is to not diverge (e.g. have different approaches) from vCard. it's ok if there are vCard properties that we don't make "official" in h-card (because a lot of vCard is aspirational tbh, having participated there), and it's ok if we have h-card additions which aren't in vCard yet
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barnaby okay, I’ll start with the /gender-* pages you suggested and we can worry about vCard later, if at all
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[tantek] when you get to documenting /pronouns-formats, that's *exactly* where you should cite that vCardDAV discussion thread!
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barnabywalters edited /pronouns (+589) "Stubbed page" (view diff)
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barnaby do existing examples which mark up pronouns with experimental mf2 properties go in -examples or -formats?
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barnaby I suppose the individual examples would be in -examples, and each different approach would go in -formats
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[tantek] half right
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[tantek] yes the individual examples would be in -examples (the key aspect is that they are publishing the *information* about pronouns; the markup is irrelevant to whether they are an example or not)
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[tantek] no the different "approaches" to markup are not -formats, there is no spec! what they could be taken as is *-brainstorming, since they're *experiments* (at best), which is very far from any kind of actual format (though is useful input *for* a format)
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barnaby okay, and -formats is for existing formats with implementations containing pronoun info, and the currently published experimentation is in -brainstorming
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barnaby makes sense, thanks
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barnaby TIL the mf wiki doesn’t like .biz links, e.g. https://beesbuzz.biz
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Loqi fluffy
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barnabywalters created /pronouns-examples (+2450) "Created page with "This page documents specific examples of how pronoun information is currently published on the web, as well as UIs which support pronoun fields. == Sites and Services == Exam..."" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /pronouns-examples (+13) (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /pronouns-examples (+581) "/* Incidentally in Profiles */ added some more examples from IW" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /pronouns-examples (+494) "/* Sites and Services */ added metafilter example" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /pronouns-examples (-300) "/* Sites and Services */ de-IWified" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /pronouns-examples (-22) (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /pronouns-examples (+162) "/* Sites and Services */ bagcheck.com example" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /h-card-brainstorming () "(-5344) /* Explorations */ moved pronoun content to pronouns-brainstorming" (view diff)
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barnabywalters created /pronouns-brainstorming (+5149) "Stubbed, moved content from h-card-brainstorming" (view diff)
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[tantek] oh no oops we finally have a legit .biz domain for the microformats wiki
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[tantek] that was seriously one of the biggest sources of spam links for a long time
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barnaby yeah if they had designed it as a spam honey pot domain they couldn’t have done a better job
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barnabywalters created /pronouns-formats (+273) "Stubbed with vcard mailing list discussion" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /microformats2-experimental-properties (-37) "/* p-x-pronoun-* */ linked to pronouns" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /microformats2-experimental-properties (+1) "/* p-x-pronoun-* */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters edited /gender (+15) "/* see also */ linked pronouns" (view diff)
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barnaby okay, I set up https://microformats.org/wiki/pronouns + related pages, moved various content there and linked to it from various places
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sknebel barnaby++
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