2014-09-30 UTC
# 00:16 tantek jasnell - are any of the changes due to implementer feedback? or is it all a result of political discussion on the mailing list / IRC / telcon? # 00:17 jasnell The way Link's were handled, for instance. Those changes were motivated entirely by community feedback and direct implementation experience # 00:18 tantek jasnell - in that case, it sounds like this is a big enough revision from last week's draft to give people another week to review this draft before publishing as a first public working draft (FPWD) # 00:19 jasnell yes. I'm going to need an additional few days to work on the changes to the other document... the one that talks about the serialization, and to write up a bunch of example cases that illustrate the changes # 00:19 tantek when do you think you'll have a draft ready for review for consideration for a FPWD? # 00:20 jasnell I ought to have both the vocabulary and the serialization draft done by the end of this week # 00:20 tantek whenever you think it's "ready for review", then we still need another week after that for the group to review it for FPWD publication consideration - does that make sense? # 00:21 jasnell that's why I wanted to get this part out today at least. I was hoping to get both documents updated before tomorrow but simply ran out of time for the second one # 00:21 tantek I'm going to take that as you the editor saying you'd prefer to delay a FPWD to be based on this edited version, rather than last week's or even today's version # 00:22 tantek to reduce confusion we'll likely just put the same review deadline for both, unless you see an advantage to publishing one before the other # 00:22 jasnell putting them both together is fine. Looking at the schedule, it ought to be no problem getting both reviewed and published before tpac so we should be good to go # 00:23 tantek you should be focused on getting your FPWD published well *before* TPAC # 00:25 jasnell goal is to (a) finish the document this week, (b) provide examples and test cases by early next week, and (c) update our open source sample implementation available on github by tpac # 00:25 tantek are you going to be ok with providing a FPWD candidate by the end of the week then that you don't need to further tweak? # 00:26 tantek ok cool. let's get that done. then we can publish updated working drafts as often as we want # 00:26 tantek FPWD is an important (and often difficult) milestone # 00:26 tantek there's no rule about what must be maintained between WDs # 00:27 jasnell I'll be spending the majority of the next two days on this so that shouldn't be a problem # 00:28 jasnell have to run for now. will be back on tomorrow morning harry, bblfish, melvster, bblfish_, bblfish__, ShaneHudson and nicolagreco joined the channel
# 07:52 oshepherd Hmm. The removal of as:duplicate... On the one hand, it is rarely used; on the other, it would be useful for stuff like POSSE/PESOS (and particularly preventing import-export loops) nicolagreco, bblfish, ShaneHudson, KevinMarks, melvster, deiu, harry, Shane and cmhobbs joined the channel
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# 16:02 sandro I'm here, but looking for where we're supposed to be, which isn't here evanpro joined the channel
# 16:02 wseltzer zakim, space for 7? # 16:02 Zakim sorry, wseltzer; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again # 16:02 wseltzer zakim, what's the code? # 16:02 Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), wseltzer # 16:03 wseltzer thanks sandro tantek joined the channel
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# 16:32 jasnell-github w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/ontology-approach e8c61af James M Snell: Fixing a couple bugs. jasnell, elf-pavlik and jtauber joined the channel
# 16:58 Zakim sorry, bret, I do not recognize a party named '+??P0' # 16:58 Zakim sorry, bret, muting is not permitted when only one person is present Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
# 16:58 Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry RRSAgent joined the channel
# 16:59 RRSAgent trackbot, access must be one of public, group-strint-submission, offline-webapps-workshop-program-committee, group-webmobile-chairs, group-rdf-val-pc, alumni, group-payment-workshop-submissions, wstar, group-digipub-chairs, member, memberSearchers, group-csv-chairs, wsridirectors, i18n, valid, group-strint-pc, webcrypto, offices, w3f, mlw, group-wot-workshop-pc, team, webandtv-moderators, ab, group-share-psi, group-payment-workshop-pc, memberEditors, w[CUT] # 16:59 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute # 16:59 jtauber Zakim, [IPcaller] is jtauber # 16:59 Zakim sorry, jtauber, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]' # 16:59 jtauber Zakim, IPcaller is jtauber # 16:59 Zakim sorry, jtauber, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller' # 17:00 Zakim ok, tantek; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 17:00 Zakim tantek, you need to end that query with '?' # 17:00 Zakim On the phone I see bret (muted), jasnell, [IPcaller], Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, ??P9, ??P14 # 17:00 Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, Lloyd_Fassett, jtauber, elf-pavlik, jasnell, nicolagreco, tantek, evanpro, harry, bblfish, melvster, KevinMarks, bryan_, bret, rhiaro, Arnaud, wilkie, mattl, # 17:00 Zakim ... tommorris, Loqi, aaronpk, Zakim, oshepherd, kylewm, Tsyesika, trackbot, botie, sandro, wseltzer # 17:00 jtauber Zakim, [IPcaller] is me # 17:01 Zakim sorry, evanpro, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]' # 17:01 Zakim sees on the phone: bret (muted), jasnell, jtauber, Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, ??P9, elf-pavlik (muted), [IPcaller.a], hhalpin, [IPcaller.aa] # 17:01 tommorris Apologies for absence: I am travelling today following medical treatment. # 17:02 Zakim sorry, evanpro, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller' # 17:02 RRSAgent trackbot, access must be one of public, group-strint-submission, offline-webapps-workshop-program-committee, group-webmobile-chairs, group-rdf-val-pc, alumni, group-payment-workshop-submissions, wstar, group-digipub-chairs, member, memberSearchers, group-csv-chairs, wsridirectors, i18n, valid, group-strint-pc, webcrypto, offices, w3f, mlw, group-wot-workshop-pc, team, webandtv-moderators, ab, group-share-psi, group-payment-workshop-pc, memberEditors, w[CUT] # 17:02 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago # 17:02 harry [looking at scribe list - no antonio today] MarkC joined the channel
# 17:03 jtauber Arnaud: I did the minutes wiki page # 17:03 Zakim sees on the phone: bret (muted), jasnell, jtauber, Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, Tantek, elf-pavlik (muted), bblfish, hhalpin, [IPcaller.aa], ??P18, +1.703.670.aaaa, [IPcaller] Shane joined the channel
# 17:03 bret hey all, I'll be joining the call today too # 17:03 bret tommorris: :( hope you feel better and your travels go smoothly # 17:03 jtauber Arnaud: sorry, I'm still getting used to the process :-) markus joined the channel
# 17:03 Zakim tantek, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (49%) # 17:04 Shane zakim, what's the code? # 17:04 Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Shane # 17:04 Zakim On the phone I see bret (muted), jasnell, jtauber, Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, Tantek, elf-pavlik (muted), bblfish, hhalpin, evanpro, ??P18, +1.703.670.aaaa, [IPcaller] # 17:04 Shane zakim, ??P25 is me # 17:05 MarkC Zakim, +1,703.670.aaaa is me # 17:05 Zakim sorry, MarkC, I do not recognize a party named '+1,703.670.aaaa' # 17:05 oshepherd Arnaud: participation is still limited to members... number of invited expert applications, still working through list # 17:05 MarkC Zakim, +1.703.670.aaaa is me # 17:05 Zakim sorry, MarkC, I do not recognize a party named '+1.703.670.aaaa' # 17:05 harry Can we hold approving minutes till end of agenda? # 17:05 bret Totally understandable and reasonable # 17:05 oshepherd ....and balancing desire between W3C being inclusive and keeping WG productive # 17:05 Zakim On the phone I see bret (muted), jasnell, jtauber, Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, Tantek, elf-pavlik (muted), bblfish, hhalpin, evanpro, ??P18, MarkC, [IPcaller], Shane (muted) # 17:06 oshepherd .... and ensuring that people who should be W3C members are members. # 17:07 oshepherd ... Agreed that minutes would be transcribed to wiki, turned into wiki page following a defined template. # 17:08 Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus # 17:08 oshepherd Arnaud: Asking scribe to transcribe, post to mailing list once done so that people can discuss the cleaned up minutes, so that they have a heads up to chime in on last week's minutes # 17:08 jtauber my apologies for not getting it done in a timely fashion (still learning) # 17:09 markus zakim, ??P29 is me # 17:09 harry RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 23 September # 17:10 harry Let's hold a week to object over mailing list and maybe fix up minutes Loqi joined the channel
# 17:35 Shane Zakim, ??P15 is me # 17:35 oshepherd Arnaud: To clarify, this is not intended to be published at same time as the spec, right? # 17:35 oshepherd jasnell: To clarify, both AS2 vocab + syntax are intended to be published together # 17:36 oshepherd Arnaud: Process is that as people review documents, raise a list of issues they have, and we can start working on those issues and moving forward # 17:36 jasnell tantek: yes. the AS2 vocabs is what I posted yesterday. I'm working on updating the AS2 syntax today and tomorrow # 17:36 oshepherd Arnaud: Perfectly reasonable to publish an FPWD with open issues; nobody expects FPWD to have all issues closed # 17:36 oshepherd jasnell: The actions stuff has been pulled into vocabulary; does have a revised model # 17:36 tantek q+ to respond to Harry as to whether any indieweb folks have looked at AS2 drafts # 17:37 oshepherd jasnell: As a bit of background, actions original proposal that was contributed overlapped fairly significantly with schema.org actions # 17:37 oshepherd jasnell: but took different approaches with regards to syntax and properties # 17:37 oshepherd jasnell: in update published yesterday, have revised model so that it is /closer/ to what schema.org has done, follows same basic model, but property names etc are slightly different, no direct dependency # 17:37 oshepherd jasnell: aligned so that community has /one/ way of doing things, but don't overlap # 17:38 oshepherd Arnaud: Don't think we have discussed the merging of these two together in the past. It is important to indicate that we are abandoning separate document # 17:38 Zakim tantek, you wanted to respond to Harry and to respond to Harry as to whether any indieweb folks have looked at AS2 drafts # 17:38 oshepherd jasnell: The actions portion is still separate section in the main vocab draft, so can be separateed out if necessary # 17:39 oshepherd tantek: So harry asked if anyone in Indieweb community had had a chance to review the AS2 draft # 17:39 oshepherd tantek: Don't speak for commuinity, just for myself; have looked over some of draft, haven't done a total reading # 17:39 oshepherd tantek: Don't see how to map some of Indieweb microformats usage into AS2 JSON... # 17:39 oshepherd tantek: ...but that might just be me not quite understanding it yet, not going to raise as a blocker # 17:39 Shane I've read it but having not implemented AS, I don't have strong opinions either way # 17:40 oshepherd tantek: As I see it, the AS2 work should continue to go forward, should try to figure out some form of mapping # 17:40 oshepherd tantek: If we can't figure out some form of direct mapping, maybe worth bringing forth some form of proposal, not worth crossing bridge until we get to it # 17:40 jasnell I'm happy to work with you on exploring that mapping # 17:40 oshepherd tantek: Regarding the actions: thats all new, as far as I understand, not based upon anye xisting implementations # 17:40 oshepherd tantek: Based upon that I think we should keep it separate # 17:40 oshepherd tantek: Don't want tthat to cause any issues for existing AS2 syntax+vocab documents # 17:41 oshepherd tantek: Would prefer to go to FPWD with both vocab+syntax without actions # 17:41 jasnell ok, so the proposal should be: keep actions vocabulary in a separate document from the activity vocabulary # 17:41 oshepherd evanpro: I was going to second that. Not sure if actions are really necessary for our FPWD, may take a lot of our time # 17:41 oshepherd evanpro: I think architecture of AS is such that they fit in nicely.. # 17:42 oshepherd Arnaud: Not sure if much to discuss, hearing multiple nods as to people prefering to keep things separate # 17:42 oshepherd Arnaud: Inviting silent ones to chime in on keeing things separate # 17:42 oshepherd jasnell: No real objection to separating things out, am agnostic, can go either way as to if one or two documents # 17:42 oshepherd jasnell: ...Looking at IRC, looks like folks prefer keeping separate # 17:42 Shane I agree with separate, though if they can be linked together for easy navigation then that would be useful # 17:43 oshepherd Arnaud: We have reached the end of our agenda. Any more comments on actions before we move on? # 17:44 jasnell Actions is going to require close review and discussion. I will write up an overview bblfish # 17:44 oshepherd evanpro: So the thing I wanted to bring up as a point of business is that we have on our schedule the intention to start looking at # 17:44 oshepherd evanpro: some social API candidates and patterns, this week and next week, would like to start collecting social API candidates # 17:45 tantek evanpro++ for sharing an empty wiki page to be filled in :) # 17:45 jasnell Do we have a list of requirements for the Social API that we can use to evaluate candidates? # 17:45 oshepherd evanpro: As we go into discussing social API with our contributions of the AS portion of OpenSocial, would like to see some others so we can evaluate multiple candidates # 17:45 tantek jasnell - # of implementations would be a good start # 17:46 oshepherd harry: I'd just like to rather quickly address elf's point # 17:46 oshepherd harry: I think that the WG is the implementation group. Don't think it mkaes sense to separate out the implementation folks # 17:46 tantek Harry: working group is the implementation group. no need for separate task force. # 17:46 Shane +1 for WG is the implementation group # 17:46 oshepherd harry: Don't think task forces make sense given our numbers at this point; TF unneeded for a WG of this scale # 17:46 oshepherd harry: Usually less meetings = more productivity, so don't think we want the overhead of extra impls # 17:47 oshepherd harry: Would love to see people listing implementations, stats on estimated users if possible # 17:47 oshepherd Arnaud: See several people have agreed with people on IRC. Seems to be premature, not sure what the purpose of an implementers group would be # 17:47 oshepherd Arnaud: Don't think we have the critical mass at which it is necessary to split into multiple formal groups # 17:48 harry I'd like to see a IndieWeb review of AS 2.0 # 17:48 oshepherd Arnaud: We have reached the end of the agenda, unless people have anything to bring up, we can end the meeting early... # 17:48 oshepherd Arnaud: ...and you can use the free time to reviwe those drafts ;-) # 17:48 Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask about criteria for minimal vocabs # 17:48 oshepherd tantek: So I wanted to raise one of the points that we have made in this WG # 17:48 oshepherd tantek: (Pretty sure it is in the charter) that we should try to come up with minimal vocab # 17:49 oshepherd tantek: So in particular when reviewing the AS2 draft pay special attention to and provide feedback on what of the vocabulary you find useful # 17:49 oshepherd tantek: and what of the vocab, espeically if you have implemented AS1 or AS2 or similar functionality, what terms and values you have shipped, what you haven't # 17:49 oshepherd tantek: That information is useful to WG, if we see clear pattetns that implementers only care about 80% of terms, we can use that to make the vocab smaller # 17:50 oshepherd tantek: So people please provide your implementation experience # 17:50 oshepherd tantek: so we can aim for minimal set based upon real world experience # 17:50 jasnell wilkie: either to the mailing list, wiki or the github issues # 17:50 oshepherd Arnaud: Would like to remind people that as a part of the W3C spec track, there will be a point at which we have a call for implementations, at which point we need 2 implementations of _every_ feature to move forward # 17:51 oshepherd Arnaud: May be a case where we have seomthing we thought was a good idea but nobody is implementing it, so we need to publish new draft # 17:51 jasnell wikie: you can post elsewhere, but please at least post a permanent url to the mailing list or github issues so I can better keep track # 17:52 oshepherd Arnaud: We have a concept of a "feature at risk"; if we have a feature we aren't sure of, we can mark a feature like this indicating that we aren't sure if we are going to move forward with feature # 17:52 tantek where we can document each implementation and what vocab it uses? # 17:52 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been bret, jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, elf-pavlik, jtauber, hhalpin, Tantek, bblfish, +1.703.670.aaaa, evanpro, Shane, MarkC, # 17:52 oshepherd Arnaud: With everything said, looks like we can close this call a little early. Thank you all; see you again next week; meeting adjourned # 17:52 jasnell fwiw, I tend to prefer assuming everything is "at risk" by default... and mark items as stable when we're sure rather than at-risk # 17:54 oshepherd (The trouble with finishing at 5:30PM before a 6PM meeting...) # 17:54 tantek bret, I expect *two* URLs from jasnell to review, one for AS2 vocab, one for AS2 syntax # 18:04 tantek thanks everyone for a focused and productive call (and ending early!) grantmacken joined the channel
# 18:07 harry oshepard, if you have a sec send the minutes to the wiki please # 18:07 harry I'm in middle of editing another wiki page # 18:09 oshepherd wonders what IRC client harry uses which doesn't tab complete # 18:11 oshepherd Is there a preferred transcription method? I seem to remember a plain text version or such ShaneHudson joined the channel
# 18:15 harry I think throwing the HTML into Markdown might be quickest # 18:35 Zakim disconnecting the lone participant, markus, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 18:35 Zakim Attendees were bret, jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett, elf-pavlik, jtauber, hhalpin, Tantek, bblfish, +1.703.670.aaaa, evanpro, Shane, MarkC, markus, dromasca, wilkie, jasnell-github joined the channel
# 18:42 jasnell-github w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/ontology-approach 4a51ce3 James M Snell: split actions vocabulary back out per WG preference to keep Actions... jasnell-github joined the channel
# 18:44 jasnell-github w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/ontology-approach a15f1f1 James M Snell: cleanup... move some of the extra notes out of the repo. Will address... caseorganic, nicolagreco, grantmacken, tantek, ShaneHudson, cmhobbs, harry, bblfish and jasnell-github joined the channel
# 22:16 jasnell-github w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/ontology-approach d89b748 James M Snell: - Updated core AS draft reflecting vocal changes and json-ld basis.... jasnell-github joined the channel
# 22:29 jasnell-github w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/gh-pages 2b74c41 James M Snell: Updating the github site page... jasnell, jasnell_, nicolagreco and bblfish joined the channel
tantek well, looking at the schedule, nothing written on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#sched makes sense
wseltzer zakim, space for 7?
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/30-social-irc
elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P14 is me
Arnaud Proposed: approve minutes of 23 September: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-23-minutes
jasnell relevant to impls discussion: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams#Implementations
bret homework: review https://rawgit.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/ontology-approach/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html, expand https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/vocab-implementations .... anything else?
oshepherd https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-30-minutes pandoc is magical