#social 2014-10-27

2014-10-27 UTC
caseorganic, bblfish, ShaneHudson, pfefferle, pfefferle_, KevinMarks, elf-pavlik, cmhobbs and Zakim joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, list
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Zakim
I see no active conferences
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Zakim
scheduled at this time are SW_LDP()10:00AM, SW_(DIGPUB)10:00AM, WAI_HTML AT()10:00AM
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim
sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is
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wseltzer
elf-pavlik, the meeting starts in an hour
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elf-pavlik
thx wseltzer!
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elf-pavlik
wseltzer, you have broken link to G+ profile on http://wendy.seltzer.org/
bblfish, jasnell and Arnaud joined the channel
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Arnaud
zakim, call salon2
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Zakim
sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is
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Arnaud
zakim, call Salon2
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Zakim
sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is
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Arnaud
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 27 October 2014
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Arnaud
zakim, this is SOCL
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Zakim
sorry, Arnaud, I do not see a conference named 'SOCL' in progress or scheduled at this time
harry and evanpro joined the channel
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harry
How many people want to participate remotely?
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evanpro
Hi everyone
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harry
Zakim, space for 10?
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Zakim
ok, harry; conference Team_(social)15:19Z scheduled with code 7625 (SOCL) for 60 minutes until 1619Z
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Zakim
sorry, harry, I do not see a conference named 'Team_social' in progress or scheduled at this time
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harry
Zakim, this is Team_social
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harry
Zakim, this is SOCL
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Zakim
harry, I see Team_(social)15:19Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be SOCL".
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harry
Zakim, space for 10 for 570 minutes?
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Zakim
harry, an adhoc conference was scheduled here less than 2 minutes ago
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harry
Zakim, call Salon2
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Zakim
ok, harry; the call is being made
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Zakim
Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
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Zakim
+Salon2
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harry
Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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Zakim
-Salon2
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Zakim
Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
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Zakim
Attendees were Salon2
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Zakim
Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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Zakim
-[IPcaller]
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Zakim
Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
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Zakim
Attendees were [IPcaller]
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Zakim
Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
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Zakim
+??P2
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harry
Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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harry
Zakim, call Salon2
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Zakim
ok, harry; the call is being made
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Zakim
+Salon2
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on call?
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Zakim
I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
On the phone I see ??P2, Salon2
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harry
elf, can you say something
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harry
we are testing?
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P2 is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, Salon2
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Arnaud
folks are still gathering here
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Arnaud
long queue at the registration
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elf-pavlik
sounds busy there :)
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
pfefferle_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), Salon2
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evanpro
We're taking a few minutes to let the people waiting in the registration line get to the room
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evanpro
I'm going to check on the line and see if we're about ready to begin
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elf-pavlik
harry, thanks for setting up VoIP conference! looks like only i needed it :)
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Arnaud
we'll start at xx:45
nicolagreco and bblfish joined the channel
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harry
I think others will dial-in
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harry
I'll send out the info to the mailing list.
lehawes, dromasca, jtauber, nvdbleek, MarkCrawford, claudio, EdK, nicolagreco, AnnBassetti and deiu joined the channel
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AnnBassetti
Arnaud: introduces the meeting, process, timeline
Andy_ and AndyF joined the channel
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AnnBassetti
wonders if zakim and rrsagent were invited
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deiu
they were :)
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AnnBassetti
scribenick: Annb
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AnnBassetti
thanks
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AnnBassetti
Arnaud: 2 items submitted as Working Drafts (on Activity Streams) ...
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AnnBassetti
... need decide what next steps are
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AnnBassetti
... goal for meeting is to come out with upcoming agenda and actions
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AnnBassetti
... tomorrow the IG will bring Use Cases, for consideration by WG
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AnnBassetti
... WG has a specific timeline (2 years), in which to do its work
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AnnBassetti
... IG doesn't have deadline, so has more flexibility to explore
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harry
Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim
the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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AnnBassetti
Evan: if WG doesn't finish some deliverables, or new ones come, when this charter runs out .. then what happens?
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AnnBassetti
Arnaud: need new charter, especially for new deliverables .. due to patent agreements
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AnnBassetti
... today we'll work all day
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AnnBassetti
... tomorrow we'll break between 11-2 for the ad-hoc meetings
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti
... we'll adjust the agenda based on discussions this morning
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lehawes
What do IG members think about having a breakout meeting/lunch from 11-2 tomorrow? Who is available?
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AnnBassetti
I'm available
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Arnaud
ack harry
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti
Harry: WebApps Sec WG working on types of protection for various types of content
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AnnBassetti
... Annotations WG has interest for discussions with Social WG .. likely Tues afternoon
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AnnBassetti
... <discussing when it'd be good for 2 groups to meet, for cross-fertilization>
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Arnaud
elf can you hear ok?
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lehawes
Thanks AnnBasetti! Anyone else from the IG interested in working together in a breakout tomorrow?
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AnnBassetti
Lloyd: +1 to Harry
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EdK
I can split out into IG session
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harry
scribenick: AnnBassetti
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harry
should be fine
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elf-pavlik
Arnaud, yes I can hear!
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lehawes
OK EdK. Thanks!
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti
<some attendees having trouble getting into IRC .. trying to figure it out>
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AnnBassetti
Evan: presents "Social WG Status"
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harry
topic: Social WG
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evanpro
Thanks Elf!
bryan_ joined the channel
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AnnBassetti
Evan: reviews history of various groups on "social" since 2010 at W3C ..
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AnnBassetti
... immediate causes:
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AnnBassetti
... convergence of open standards work
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AnnBassetti
... increased collaboration between OpenSocial and W3C
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AnnBassetti
... <a couple other points>
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AndyF
;join #social-chat
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harry
AndyF, everything is just in #social
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AnnBassetti
s/<a couple other points>/Activity Streams 2.0
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Loqi
AnnBassetti meant to say: ... Activity Streams 2.0
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AnnBassetti
... increased IndieWeb development
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AnnBassetti
... <Evan covered much more; see his slides>
Shane and AnnBassetti_ joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_
... hmm, seemed like I was dropped from IRC
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Shane
Hi all, I'm around on IRC but afraid I forgot my headphones so can't currently listen in at the moment
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AnnBassetti_
scribenick: AnnBassetti_
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AnnBassetti_
Evan: <continuing his introductory presentation>
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AnnBassetti_
... very diverse set of team members; many different points of focus
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AnnBassetti_
... also a challenge is how to interact with the IG
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AnnBassetti_
... tight schedule; fairly high stakes
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AnnBassetti_
.... big opportunity
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AnnBassetti_
... Next steps:
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AnnBassetti_
... 1. Commit to strategies for API and protocol
shepazu joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_
... 2. Push Social API First Public Working Draft for Q4 2014
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AnnBassetti_
... 3. Keep federation protocol effort spun up for Q1 2015
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AnnBassetti_
... Opportunities in 2015 and 2016, to build upon the work of this WG
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AnnBassetti_
Evan: questions? discussion?
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EdK
q+
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Zakim
sees EdK on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees EdK, harry on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
Arnaud: in addition to adding specific items on REC track, we can also have a "wish list"
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Zakim
sees EdK, harry on the speaker queue
rektide joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_
.... the further we get into the Rec process, the more rigorous it is; hard to add new stuff; good to put those things on Wish List
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AnnBassetti_
... then work on those things when re-chartering subsequent work
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AnnBassetti_
... really helpful to have a wish list for future opportunities
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evanpro
ack EdK
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
Ed Krebs (Ford): reviewed notes from earlier work ...
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Arnaud
ack harry
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
... we might want to add PubSubHub onto Wish List .. or IG to discuss
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AnnBassetti_
q+
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Zakim
sees AnnBassetti_ on the speaker queue
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evanpro
ack AnnBassetti_
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
tantek joined the channel
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Zakim
sees lehawes on the speaker queue
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AndyF
IRC working well for me
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AndyF
ducking out for TAG meeting
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Arnaud
ack lehawes
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
Tantek: gives kudos to Sandro Hawke as Indie developer
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harry
+1 sandro
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tantek
greetings #social!
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
jeff joined the channel
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harry
note that folks can dial -in - also, is KevinMarks stopping by?
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AnnBassetti_
Larry Hawes: could you give us guidance on Use Cases needed for social data syntax?
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harry
notes that I just approved his IE application in the DB this morning
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AnnBassetti_
... since a lot of that work has been done
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jeff
present+ jeff
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AnnBassetti_
Evan: yes; a lot of preconception that we'd end up with Activity Streams
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AnnBassetti_
... not sure what value Use Cases would add at this point ... maybe as validation
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EdK
sidenote - most of my Use Case work tries to focus more on federation related issues, moreso than syntax/activity streams
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Arnaud
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
James Snell: we don't have very clear use cases for <I missed which>
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AnnBassetti_
... Need: what is a social profile in activity stream
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AnnBassetti_
Larry: yes, that's what we've focused on
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AnnBassetti_
James: is there a minimal set of social objects we need to provide
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jasnell
Ann... was saying that we need use cases and requirements for the additional vocabularies beyond basic activities
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jasnell
for instance, what is the vocabulary for a "social profile"
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AnnBassetti_
Arnaud: yes, we inherited this work, so are sort of coming up with solution before defining the problem ..
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jasnell
how do we describe people, and the objects acted upon, etc
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AnnBassetti_
... but still useful to define use cases as documentation, validation,
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AnnBassetti_
Larry: and also 'gap analysis'
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
Lloyd; use case a few years ago re: describing pictures
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AnnBassetti_
... what happened?
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AnnBassetti_
Evan: SWOT 0 (??)
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elf-pavlik
Wed session Social WG + Schema.org may have some relevance to broader vocabulary(ies) https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#Schema.org_and_Social_WG
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AnnBassetti_
... Social Web Acid Test
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AnnBassetti_
thanks
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
s/SWOT 0 (??)/SWAT0
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Arnaud
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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EdK
SWAT Zero - first use case from federated summit
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AnnBassetti_
James: describes basic use case
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AnnBassetti_
is there a link?
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EdK
multiple actors who have accounts on multiple services
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AnnBassetti_
... 6 basic steps
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AnnBassetti_
Lloyd: sounds like something the IG should include in our list
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AnnBassetti_
oh, I see.. that is SWAT0
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AnnBassetti_
thought you had moved on to some other thing
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tantek
Note that SWAT0 is a FOUR YEAR OLD use-case
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jasnell
wonders if use cases age like fine wine..
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AnnBassetti_
Evan: there are a lot of other use cases that could be detailed out of that one
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dromasca
Evan: initiate and end subscriptions, approve, etc. - complex space
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elf-pavlik
who asked question?
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AnnBassetti_
Lloyd: do we have preference for business-oriented use cases vs more purely social use cases
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Shane
I like the way SWAT0 works, covers a lot of problems all at once without having a massive list
wy joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_
Arnaud: 2 diff constituencies here
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
... we should be equal; a lot of shared requirements
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EdK
q+
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Zakim
sees jasnell, EdK on the speaker queue
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dromasca
Arnaud: SAT - the only uc that was voted about
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dromasca
s/SAT/SWAT
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Loqi
dromasca meant to say: Arnaud: SWAT - the only uc that was voted about
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Arnaud
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees EdK on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
Evan: there are some refinements for the business use cases
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AnnBassetti_
James: would be interesting to describe what addtional requirements are need for business use cases
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AnnBassetti_
+1
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AnnBassetti_
Lloyd: might be like a road map
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Zakim
sees EdK on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack EdK
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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dromasca
Ann: add 'approval' chain as business dimension of consumer use case
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AnnBassetti_
Ed: recruiting is a cross-over use case ..
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tantek
q+ to say, plenty of space on the wiki to document new use-cases as part of the social web IG
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
I was saying there are added levels of complexity on business side
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Arnaud
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to say, plenty of space on the wiki to document new use-cases as part of the social web IG
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell
Question: How many of these business use cases/requirements actually involve interop/federation across application or organization boundaries? Are these things that the WG needs to standardize?
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AnnBassetti_
Tantek: I'm not convinced there are such strong distinctions
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dromasca
tantek: pls. document social business ucs on wiki
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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lehawes
I strongly second tantek's plea to document any use case on the wiki. Starting point is http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF
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AnnBassetti_
Tantek: glad we've got Activity Streams out there as public draft .. and call for exclusions
jeff joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_
... we need better documentation on use cases for Activity Streams .. both to add and to subtract components from AS
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dromasca
q+
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Zakim
sees dromasca on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
... esp important to document use cases for components of Activity Streams that are important for you
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AnnBassetti_
... to ensure it gets kept in
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elf-pavlik
+1 for backing all features with a use case requring it
nicolagreco joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_
... AS defined as nouns / verbs / objecgts
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AnnBassetti_
... in IndieWeb camp we discovered we only needed nouns
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AnnBassetti_
Ann: how did you get rid of verbs?
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Zakim
sees dromasca, jasnell on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack dromasca
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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tantek
AnnBassetti: you asked for documentation see: http://indiewebcamp.com/ActivityStreams#Verbs_vs_just_posts for example
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AnnBassetti_
Dan Romascanu: <sorry I can't hear>
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MarkCrawford
q+
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Zakim
sees jasnell, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees jasnell, MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
... asking about how WG approves or selects use cases
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Zakim
sees jasnell, MarkCrawford, lehawes, harry on the speaker queue
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harry
notes its coffee break time
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AnnBassetti_
Arnaud: at the end, every feature in the spec must have minimum 2 implementations
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harry
q- harry
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Zakim
sees jasnell, MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
... also, at the end, if there is a feature that no one wants to implement, that can be an important cue
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Arnaud
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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harry
q- jasnell
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Zakim
sees MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack MarkCrawford
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Zakim
sees lehawes on the speaker queue
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dromasca
question about how use cases are filtered and consolidated - Arnaud: WG will select a list of pointers to use cases from the IG
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AnnBassetti_
Mark Crawford: IG has in charter, reqt to deliver Use Case report ,,, NOT to support WG, but rather to describe social business .. which is broader than what WG focus is
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AnnBassetti_
... may use diff formats
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Arnaud
ack lehawes
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
Larry: initial focus for IG use cases has been profiles, due to WG focus, but then we'll broaden into others
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_
<break>
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elf-pavlik
thank you AnnBassetti_ for scribing!!!
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AnnBassetti_
you're welcome .. sorry I didn't capture more . hope you guys can hear
jeff, pfefferle, tantek and nicolagreco joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), Salon2
nvdbleek joined the channel
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jasnell
For those not here in person, I'm going to be showing http://tpac.mybluemix.net/index.html on the screen here once we're back from the break
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elf-pavlik
thx jasnell !
tantek joined the channel
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jasnell
(warning.. only tested in chrome and firefox ;-) ... sorry ie)
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
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harry
note we're on break now
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harry
will be restarting in 5 min.
jtauber and nicolagreco_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, mute me
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Zakim
elf-pavlik should now be muted
HZ_, tantek_ and nicolagreco_ joined the channel
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evanpro
scribenick: evanpro
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tantek
talky.io/socialwg is live - someone want to try it out?
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evanpro
jasnell will present overview of status of AS 2.0
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evanpro
Will talk about where we were with 1.0, what's changed with 2.0, what 2.0 looks like, what we need to do
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evanpro
Simple activity: actor, verb, object
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elf-pavlik
tantek, I get "We could not get access to your microphone or camera." and only 'Take me back' button
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evanpro
No i18n, no language context
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evanpro
But can get basic info across
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evanpro
flat namespace
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evanpro
2.0 activity
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evanpro
additional context
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evanpro
@id for id, some other info
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evanpro
In 1.0 MediaLink objects
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evanpro
url used inconsistently in 1.0
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evanpro
Never really clearly defined what it points to
Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
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tantek
elf-pavlik: talky is two way so we can see who is watching
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evanpro
Limited set of properties for MediaLink: height, width, mediaType
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evanpro
AS 1.0 base schema with common verb and object type definitions
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evanpro
e.g. person, video
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tantek
greetings folks on Talky - could you introduce yourselves in IRC?
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evanpro
embedCode for HTML version of the item
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Zakim
-elf-pavlik
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tantek
Talky users - how's the audio quality?
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evanpro
Use cases in base schema were either concrete or not very concrete
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elf-pavlik
tantek, ok-ish
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evanpro
Not everything took off as implementable
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elf-pavlik
i think better than SIP
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tantek
great!
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tantek
better than SIP is an improvement :)
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evanpro
geolocation defined in base schema 1.0 became core in 2.0
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elf-pavlik
thx tantek! :)
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evanpro
Priority e.g.
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tantek
np elf-pavlik
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evanpro
Most of base schema is not yet in AS 2.0 vocabulary
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evanpro
Many verbs from basic schema 1.0 are in use by processors today
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evanpro
Do we need standard identifiers for verbs?
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elf-pavlik
can i get link to your AS1.0 feeds? :)
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evanpro
4 people implement activity streams
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evanpro
2 consuming, 4 publishing
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tantek
AS 1.0 ^^^^
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tantek
1 consuming implementation is only behind a firewall
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evanpro
List of implementers are on the wiki
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evanpro
Changes from 1.0
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tantek
for the record - at the meeting for consming, only jasnell and evanpro raised their hands.
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tantek
s/consming/consuming
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: for the record - at the meeting for consuming, only jasnell and evanpro raised their hands.
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Zakim
disconnecting the lone participant, Salon2, in Team_(social)15:19Z
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Zakim
Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
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Zakim
Attendees were Salon2, elf-pavlik
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harry
elf-pavlik, you want to dial back in?
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harry
anyone else?
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elf-pavlik
harry, i stick to talky for now :)
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evanpro
evan asks: some mechanisms for 1.0 to 2.0 compatibility around media type
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evanpro
tantek: asks no backward compatibility for XML version?
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evanpro
jasnell: no
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evanpro
XML version never made it to 1.0
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evanpro
Added elements: inReplyTo, replies
#
evanpro
audience targetting: to, bto, cc, bcc
#
evanpro
priority
#
evanpro
location
#
evanpro
tantek: to be fair, I'm consuming from many clients, see https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/wiki/Clients
#
tantek
I'm only supporting publishing AS 1.0 / XML FWIW
#
tantek
because it was easy to add it to my existing Atom feed
#
evanpro
changed options, include "duration"
#
tantek
have not done the work to try to publish any JSON AS
#
evanpro
tags and attachments changed to singular
#
wilkie
rstatus only supports AS 1.0 through XML too :/
#
evanpro
2.0 supports language map
#
evanpro
wilkie: I believe it's the same for GNU Social and Diaspora
#
tantek
wilkie AS/XML solidarity!
#
Loqi
does a happy dance!
#
evanpro
height and width are pixels
#
evanpro
upstream/downstreamDuplicates are deprecated
#
wilkie
I am writing the JSON stuff though to catch up. :) the new backend code produces AS 1.0 json but doesn't consume/discover it just yet.
#
elf-pavlik
I didn't hear question
#
AnnBassetti_
Sandro asked how language here relates to language in json-ld
#
evanpro
Sandro asks what the relationship is between language in AS 2.0 and JSON-LD language
Lloyd_Fassett_ joined the channel
#
tantek
evanpro - could you minute question?
#
evanpro
jasnell replies that there is additional language support in AS 2.0 since not all processors will support JSON-LD language
#
evanpro
Example: unmapped verbs
#
evanpro
With unmapped verbs like "post", these become skolems in JSON-LD
#
evanpro
can add some verb namespace to avoid this problem
#
evanpro
By adding context
#
evanpro
Another example shows expanded actors or object
#
evanpro
multiple actors and object
#
evanpro
actors and objects referred to just by ID
#
evanpro
object using the link class
#
evanpro
"Link" class means that object is dereferenceable
#
evanpro
and has a representation by the given media type
#
evanpro
"multiple types"
#
evanpro
Link (= dereferenceable) and "Blog Post" (= role)
#
evanpro
Can use multiple vocabularies using JSON-LD
#
evanpro
e.g. vCard
#
evanpro
Actually call out "vcard:" prefix for non-JSON-LD processors
#
evanpro
AS relies on other vocabularies
#
Lloyd_Fassett_
q+
#
Zakim
sees Lloyd_Fassett_ on the speaker queue
#
evanpro
tantek asks where namespace expansion happens
#
evanpro
jasnell says, it's part of the JSON-LD process, using the "@context" property
#
Lloyd_Fassett_
q-
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
evanpro
how do we use microformats ontologies in the JSON-LD
#
AnnBassetti_
Lloyd asked if skills are represented .. .
#
AnnBassetti_
answer: no
#
tantek
note that the w3c vcard namespace is old vcard3. there is vcard4 now. and h-card
#
tantek
which is based on vcard4
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#
evanpro
simple collections: using AS 1.0 similar links
#
elf-pavlik
Q: do you use different URI for collecition and its first page?
#
evanpro
geolocation using W3C geo basic
#
evanpro
geolocation using GeoSPARQL is also possible
hadleybeeman joined the channel
#
evanpro
example of attachment, similar to email
#
hadleybeeman
waves at #socialweb
#
AnnBassetti_
waves back
AdamB joined the channel
#
evanpro
Simple link: example 14
#
evanpro
"rel" is issue for JSON-LD
#
elf-pavlik
thx jasnell
#
evanpro
jasnell responds to question: yes, we do have different identifiers per page and for the collection
#
evanpro
language example:
#
evanpro
"language" defines default language context for all properties
#
AnnBassetti
<Tantek gives brief overview to talky.io .. noting that we're seeing elf-pavlik, and he sees at least part of the room>
#
evanpro
This doesn't come through to JSON-LD
#
evanpro
Since "@language" only attaches to a property
#
evanpro
Can also add "@context" to "@language"
#
AnnBassetti
s/question: yes,/elf's question: yes,/
#
Loqi
AnnBassetti meant to say: <Tantek gives brief overview to talky.io .. noting that we're seeing elf-pavlik, and he sees at least part of the room>
#
AnnBassetti
I don't get that Loqi thing
#
evanpro
Question: how easy do we want this to be for non-JSON-LD consumers?
#
evanpro
AnnBassetti: logging bot for this channel
#
AnnBassetti
hmmm ..
#
tantek
wseltzer arrives
#
AnnBassetti
in addition to rrsagent?
#
evanpro
@context allows us to declare separate properties which can have default language
#
evanpro
So "displayName_en"
#
evanpro
AnnBassetti: yes
#
AnnBassetti
pourquoi?
#
evanpro
Need a better solution for language context
#
elf-pavlik
could someone pleaes type questions to IRC?
#
evanpro
Sandro points out that we need to have a review at Last Call for i18n
#
evanpro
jasnell points out that there will be a11y issues here too
#
evanpro
AnnBassetti points out naming conventions issue
#
evanpro
e.g. family name and individual name
#
AnnBassetti
See Richard Ishida's excellent article: http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names
#
evanpro
dromasca asks accessibility, via language analysis
#
AnnBassetti
he is lead of i18n activity in W3C
#
evanpro
jasnell says much of the use case is JSON -> HTML
#
evanpro
e.g. does a link need alt text
#
AnnBassetti
i18n = "internationalization" ... 1st and last letters, with 18 letters in-between
#
elf-pavlik
comment: possible issues with using as:alias to reference other resources (instead their @id) https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/25
#
evanpro
Note on slides: http://tpac.mybluemix.net/ are up for review
#
evanpro
todos: activitystrea.ms possible to use as ns:
#
evanpro
Not a lot using the 2.0 namespace
#
evanpro
Question around namespace URI: use dates or not?
#
evanpro
Another question: backwards compatibility?
#
evanpro
Use a namespace for 1.0 base schema?
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
tantek
welcome barnabywalters - is that you we see on talky?
#
evanpro
tantek asks, can we kick this question of NS to someone else?
#
barnabywalters
greetings tantek!
#
barnabywalters
yup, that’s me
#
evanpro
evan asks, do we have authority to mint namespaces in /ns/
#
tantek
barnabywalters joins via talky
#
evanpro
sandro answers, and Arnaud confirms: yes
#
AnnBassetti
cool .. I wondered who popped up!
#
elf-pavlik
hi barnabywalters o/
#
barnabywalters
hi elf-pavlik!
#
evanpro
sandro questions whether "/" or "#" should end the namespace
Shane joined the channel
#
harry
The hash versus slash debate is preventing the Semantic Web from creating the singularity, BTW
#
harry
for 15 years!
#
evanpro
One document with a hash, or multiple documents?
#
wilkie
+0 :)
#
harry
www.example.org/ns#term
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#
harry
www.example.org/ns/term
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#
evanpro
this would need to go to the JSON-LD context document per jasnell
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#
evanpro
PROPOSED: adoption of "http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#" as namespace for Activity Streams 2.0
#
MarkCrawford
+1
#
EdK
+1
#
AdamB
+1
#
dromasca
+1
#
sandro
jtauber: +1
#
harry
any objections?
#
harry
any objections?
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#
evanpro
RESOLVED: adoption of "http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#" as namespace for Activity Streams 2.0
#
evanpro
closing this issue
#
evanpro
jasnell continues, what to do with base schema 1.0
#
evanpro
Does need to be heavily influenced by use cases
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#
AnnBassetti
Evan: as an Activity Streams implementer .. I can say that most of the verbs here are core to what happens in social software (follow, join, ...)
#
AnnBassetti
... others not so much
#
AnnBassetti
... questions if it makes sense to define a core schema, with others more tangential
#
AnnBassetti
Tantek: to counter Evan's point, many implementations discovered they could make those verbs into nouns
#
evanpro
jasnell says everything becomes a noun for IBM too
#
AnnBassetti
James: in IBM's experience, that's true re: nouns
#
evanpro
Very frist version did not have verbs
#
tantek
AnnBassetti: to be clear *every* implementation done by someone in the IndieWebCamp community. not just "most"
#
AnnBassetti
thanksTantek
#
tantek
numerous at this point - dozens
#
evanpro
verb becomes optional
#
evanpro
fall back on object type
#
AnnBassetti
Sandro: can you explain why you like verbs?
#
AnnBassetti
Evan: more comfortable with activity referring to action / actor / object
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, can you try reduce mic just a bit? it sounds link you have strong winds there ;)
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: that might be the computer fan :/
#
elf-pavlik
i don't think so, i just get thos FX after each word said
#
barnabywalters
I think it’s just artifacts from a laptop mic being used to try to record an entire room
#
tantek
barnabywalters: we're using the Logitech HD camera and mic
#
tantek
I can reload and see if it helps
#
barnabywalters
tantek: weird — compression artefacts maybe then?
#
AnnBassetti
Ann: does this have to be decided now?
#
AnnBassetti
Arnaud: no, but we should open an issue
#
tantek
barnabywalters, elf-pavlik just reloaded
#
barnabywalters
now there are silent clones
#
AnnBassetti
<name?> asks what was the advantage the IndieWeb folks got from this other syntax
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, can we just try reducing mic sensitivity a little?
#
AnnBassetti
... this is largely a syntax issue, right?
#
AnnBassetti
Tantek: good question
#
AnnBassetti
... we've been proceeding cautiously
#
AnnBassetti
Sandro: is it 1- or 2- degrees of freedom?
#
evanpro
Likes, favorites, RSVPs, favorites all work as nouns
#
AnnBassetti
... we need 2, if they are truly orthogonal
#
evanpro
question of whether the representation is the event versus the state of the world after the fact
#
evanpro
transmission is a notification mechanism
#
elf-pavlik
Q: can we consider schema.org approach with "@type": "LikeAction" similar to your noun approach? ( jasnell might have already said someting about it earlier)
#
evanpro
"verb": "like" vs. "@type": "LikeAction"
#
AnnBassetti
s/<name?>/James Tauber /
#
Loqi
AnnBassetti meant to say: ... we need 2, if they are truly orthogonal
#
Arnaud
ISSUE: Should we drop verbs and only use nouns/object type instead?
#
trackbot
is creating a new ISSUE.
#
trackbot
Created ISSUE-3 - Should we drop verbs and only use nouns/object type instead?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/3/edit>.
#
elf-pavlik
as:Verb & as:verb possibly not needed #23
#
AdamB
CRUD
#
sandro
CRUD = Create, Read, Update, Delete
#
evanpro
evan asks if verb -> type has JSON-LD advantages
#
evanpro
type and kind are different axes
#
elf-pavlik
you can define properties with rdfs:domain and rdfs:range for subtypes
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#
sandro
why not try to resolve the issue, if we have consensus
jeff joined the channel
#
evanpro
Implementation experience with indieweb has been that types can be implied
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
jeff_ joined the channel
#
Arnaud
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
evanpro
type can be implicit
#
jtauber_
q+
#
Zakim
sees jtauber_ on the speaker queue
#
evanpro
objectType is not required for 1.0 as
#
evanpro
some implementations use it, some don't
#
harry
so as long as its not required and optional, we are OK if people end up using it implicitly
#
Zakim
sees jtauber_, evanpro on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack jtauber
#
Zakim
sees evanpro on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
having types might make it esasier to filter them
#
tantek
sandro asked for a mapping from properties to implied types - here's what we have so far in IndieWebCamp: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
#
evanpro
sandro asks if we can skip the typing
#
evanpro
or mapping properties of types
#
sandro
sandro: can we have an official machine-readable mapping from properties to the types they imply?
#
evanpro
generic property name for indieweb s "in reply to"
#
evanpro
RSVP has its own properties
#
Arnaud
ack evanpro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnBassetti
compared to re-posts
#
tantek
RSVP has its own property with its own values
#
dret
maybe that's a good case for postel's law? be strict in what you produce and liberal in what you accept? implied info makes systems robust but also a bit vulnerable to misinterpretations, right?
#
sandro
evanpro: I prefer explicit types to inferred types
#
evanpro
Question for social API endpoint receiving an activity as a command
#
AnnBassetti
Tantek: could we capture this as an issue?
#
AnnBassetti
Arnaud: what, exactly, is the issue?
#
AnnBassetti
<discussion>
#
elf-pavlik
sandro, would you see IndieWeb implicit types similar to rdfs:domain inference?
#
evanpro
Is the typing implicit in the presence of a property or explicit in a type or "verb" property
#
sandro
elf-pavlik, yes, but I don't think it's helpful to get into that in this group
#
jtauber_
jtauber: jtauber: explicit types allow more generic properties (if properties can be used to infer types AND we have explicit types then the property names have redundancy)
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#
jtauber_
wanted to scribe myself, not meta-scribe myself
#
elf-pavlik
hey ahdinosaur :D
#
ahdinosaur
hey elf :)
#
barnabywalters
one interesting side effect I’ve observed and discussed of having implicit types via properties is that a single post can have multiple “types” e.g. be a like and a comment at the same time
#
barnabywalters
there are several people in the IWC community who regularly publish these types of posts
#
Arnaud
ISSUE: Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names?
#
trackbot
is creating a new ISSUE.
#
trackbot
Created ISSUE-4 - Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/4/edit>.
#
elf-pavlik
"@type": ["LikeAction", "CommentAction"]
#
elf-pavlik
barnabywalters, ^
#
barnabywalters
elf-pavlik: that would probably be the AS equivalent — do any AS implementations actively publish or consume (i.e. display intelligently) activities like that?
#
elf-pavlik
barnabywalters, AS1 didn't allow it
#
evanpro
harry points out that we can leave it and see what happens next
#
barnabywalters
elf-pavlik: I don’t really care if it was *allowed*, I care who uses it ;)
#
evanpro
Arnaud notes that it doesn't have to be one or the other
#
Shane
barnabywalters++ Rules don't matter if people have a reason to ignore them
#
Loqi
barnabywalters has 75 karma
#
evanpro
Can use MUST, SHOULD, or MAY to switch between different options
#
wilkie
people may want to use them because human beings are more creative than machines, and extensibility still matters
#
evanpro
jasnell notes that we don't currently have a vocabulary of activities except 1.0 base schema
#
barnabywalters
more specifically, the UIs which were used to create and display those activites
#
wilkie
if people want to reduce social data to sludge because sludge is all protocol designers believe people need, more power to you :)
#
tantek
wilkie - so far everything published by indiewebcamp implementations are *exactly* what *people* want to publish, not protocol designers
#
tantek
exclusively so
#
wilkie
less "here's what people do" and more "what can we do to handle people doing more without extensive changes to implementations?"
#
wilkie
yeah, well, if your only benchmark is replicating a stream of tweets, then you'll get what you have, no kidding.
#
tantek
wilkie - so far every different meaningful "type" has needed changes to implementations because its the UX of those implementations that matter in terms of different types
#
tantek
wilkie - stream of tweets was IndieWeb 2010, we're well past that
#
wilkie
no, if you don't understand a type, you can read the display name or content common to all types
#
tantek
right, h-entry gives you that
#
wilkie
then you filter by verb so that you only really try your best at reading 'post' activities
#
tantek
"content common to all types" are the properties defined in h-entry
#
wilkie
yes, there is a mapping
#
tantek
so far implied-typing appears to the be things are evolving: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
#
wilkie
I really wish indie web cared about extensibility and interop instead of trying to tell everybody that they solved every problem because there is only one problem worth solving :P
#
evanpro
sandro points out that subclassing
#
wilkie
if only indie web were a community that wasn't so passive aggressive about how to do things right too
#
wilkie
oh well. we'll get there in spite of it all, I'm fairly optimistic
#
elf-pavlik
evanpro, can you please try to minute little more in IRC, i get pretty bad sound now :(
#
tantek
wilkie - microformats2 is extensible - which is why the indiewebcamp community has been able to so easily add support for and implement new (implied) types
#
evanpro
elf-pavlik: working on it
#
tantek
wilkie - not sure what you mean about passive-aggressive - indiewebcamp is openly demanding of documentation of use-cases and selfdogfooding. even #social WG demands documentation of use-cases.
#
evanpro
sandro points out that subclassing relationship ("love" is a subclass of "like") may benefit from using @type version propertyname ("likeOf", "loveOf") or verb "like" "love"
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, wilkie: can we plesae try to stick to the converation in a room? i really have hard time to follow now :'(
#
Shane
Also it isn't about doing things right, it is about learning from experience. Just look at how webmentions are changing with vouch etc
#
evanpro
tantek says that users don't differentiate between types of content, e.g. image and text
#
evanpro
so text with attachment versus image with caption
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#
sandro
tantek: Sometimes the users don't know what the "type" is of what they're doing, so maybe explicit typing would be hard
#
tantek
remote folks, we are breaking for lunch but will leave the camera on
#
tantek
on talky
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#
elf-pavlik
tantek, can we try adjusting mic gain a bit
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#
timeless
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight <- if you want a single log for the two days
#
RRSAgent
I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight <- if you want a single log for the two days', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
Shane and gRegor joined the channel
#
oshepherd_
WebRTC: Brand new and more reliable than SIP. The world we live in.
#
oshepherd
wishes he could be at TPAC instead of fighting with crappy EDA tools
#
rektide
i wish talky would let me in in spectator mode. i have no mic nor video on this laptop. "You are about to join a video chat" modal dialog on screen with "We could not get access to your microphone or camera"
#
gRegor
I could hear you, barely, elf-pavlik
#
gRegor
That's a bit better
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#
gRegor
very good, elf-pavlik
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#
gRegor
elf-pavlik: mic quality is better
Shane and jasnell joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell, could you please ask tantek when he comes back to reduce mic gain? we get a lot of artefacts in the sound :(
dret, jtauber, barnabywalters and bblfish joined the channel
#
jasnell
elf: will do
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nvdbleek3 and Arnaud joined the channel
#
Arnaud
still waiting for people to be back in the room
#
EdK
some folks still returning from lunch, should be able to get started in about 5 minutes ((1;10pm Pacific)
jasnell joined the channel
#
lehawes
Back from lunch :>)
#
jasnell
Elf, tantek is not back yet. once he is I'll ask him about the mic gain
#
Arnaud
about to start
#
jasnell
hey Elf.. what time was that breakout session for wednesday supposed to be? do you remember?
#
rektide
there's no alternative to the talky (which those of us without webconf broadcast gear can't use) ?
#
elf-pavlik
rektide, we used Zakim before but talky had better sound
#
elf-pavlik
which now doesn't work that well any more...
#
lehawes
Arnaud: Do we know what time the IG presentation will be tomorrow morning?
harry and Lloyd_Fassett joined the channel
#
gRegor
good, tantek
#
gRegor
audio died
#
harry
scribenick: harry
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#
harry
Zakim, call Salon1
#
Zakim
sorry, harry, I don't know what conference this is
#
gRegor
audio's back
#
harry
topic: Social API
#
harry
evanpro: Presenting slides and then open discussion
#
gRegor
I'm the other person, lurking :)
#
harry
... this is next in deliverable list
#
AnnBassetti
Evan presents slides re: Social API
#
harry
scribenick: Ann Bassetti
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
harry
scribenick: AnnBassetti
#
harry
if you can scribe Ann, that would be great
#
harry
since you seem to be already doing it :)
#
AnnBassetti
not for long .. tendinitis
#
Lloyd_Fassett
I can take it
#
AnnBassetti
I thought you were
AdamB joined the channel
#
AnnBassetti
ok, cool
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Issues" Cpmf;atopm pf AS amd E,bedded experiences /
#
elf-pavlik
thx Lloyd_Fassett ! sometimes we get poor audio so minutes *help us a lot* to follow
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Examples of Social API: Twitter / Facebook / OpenSocial
#
Lloyd_Fassett
elf - can you see the slides?
#
elf-pavlik
yes, i have them on second screen
#
Lloyd_Fassett
If we can't make something that has a passing resemblance to these API's, we're on the wrong track.
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: Action Handlers / Hypermedia Controls / Hypermedia API
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
If it's helpful to folks, I can give a quick overview of how the OpenSocial spec is organized
#
Lloyd_Fassett
We need reusable libraries, you should be able to point a social client at a new service and it should just work
#
Lloyd_Fassett
It should be possible be to implement an API facade
tantek joined the channel
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Social API's manage social connections, publish content, manage responses..a light application platform
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, if you have mic settings to reduce gain / boos just 10% or so it could reduce artifacs in sound ...
#
Lloyd_Fassett
There's not just a one way follow, but a two way...join a group (manage circles), manage list of friends...manage a group of other accounts can be very useful
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Larry Dawes: Does it need to be two way?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: Twitter is one way, Facebook is two way, G+ is either
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Social content publication management CRUD...should be able to handle basic types...not all services would handle all
jtauber joined the channel
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Responses: typically there is a way to manage responses: Like, vote, comment, reply, share..redistributing content to your followers
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Social Applications: event invitations, polls, Q&A, Games, etc.
#
elf-pavlik
AFAIK both IBM and Boing have Q&A systems
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Models: 1. Command, 2. Resource.
#
AdamB
Boeing does have an Q&A system
MarkCrawford joined the channel
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Resource model is more common
#
Lloyd_Fassett
represent URI's, use http to modify.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Example: post 'tantek' to a stream of information
#
oshepherd
Important thing with resource model, syndicating activities is harder
#
Lloyd_Fassett
You can have a uniform interface with this...get an endpoint.
jasnell joined the channel
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Lloyd_Fassett
downside is 'unfollowing' and other actions are harder to do
#
Lloyd_Fassett
other models will take us off the beaten path of social software
#
Lloyd_Fassett
non-JSON representation and non-RESTful are off the beaten path
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, dret on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Proposals under discussion are Open Social - very command oreinted, http verbs against an AS
#
Lloyd_Fassett
use Put to update elements in that stream
#
Lloyd_Fassett
very nice straight forward API
#
Lloyd_Fassett
We need to make some changes from current state of it.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Pump.io (Evan works on this) is a hybrid of command and resource.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
I think we need more proposals, or start working on them internally
#
Lloyd_Fassett
we need endpoints
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek suggested micropub as an option to consider
#
Lloyd_Fassett
We need to make a number of decions, we need to get on the path to resolving them.
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tantek
with existing multiple client and server micropub implementations
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Lloyd_Fassett
first is understanding embedded experience
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oshepherd
tantek: micropub is publish-only, no?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Embedded experiences is a nice system that works with Open Social, but we'll need a lot of work to get it going
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tantek
oshepherd: not sure what you mean? people are using it for CRUD for various post types - which is the core of social API as described
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, dret, harry on the speaker queue
#
oshepherd
tantek: Micropub is a publishing API, doesn't let you fetch /your/ incoming stream
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jasnell
Our actions proposal addressees the embedded experiences stuff, separates it from the api
#
Lloyd_Fassett
How deep does social API go in a application?
#
tantek
oshepherd: you mean HTTP GET ?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
What verbs and domain concepts should be supported, how extensibility is needed?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Other important issues that we may want to punt on are authentication, discovery (will you be able to take an identified user and discover endpoints / AS etc.)
#
oshepherd
tantek: What I get with GET http://mypumpserver.com/api/username/inbox, i.e. the activities addressed at me and of everyone I'm following
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaud: Thank you Evan
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Action Handlers / Hypermedia Controls / Hypermedia API
#
Zakim
sees dret, harry on the speaker queue
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jtauber
q+
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Zakim
sees dret, harry, jtauber on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
"This hypermedia control must be present because there purposely does not exist a fixed URL format that servers of triple pattern fragments need to follow. This means that clients of triple pattern fragments must not need prior knowledge of a server, i.e., they must not assume a certain URL pattern. Instead, clients must interpret the hypermedia control in each triple pattern fragment in order to retrieve another fragment."
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elf-pavlik
[Lecture] REST, Hypermedia, and the Semantic Gap: Why "RMM Level-3 REST" is not enough
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tantek
no existing hydra implementations for the record
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: do you know implementation of that? Elf: no
Ruinan joined the channel
#
Lloyd_Fassett
(I can't tell what Elf is saying)
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: that's wildly unlike any Social API's I talked about at the beginning
#
Lloyd_Fassett
those typically have well defined URL's. I don't know what the starting point would be if we don't give structure to URLs.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Elf: you can sense it in the header.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: how?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
(I didn't understand answer)
#
AnnBassetti
sympathizes with Lloyd's problem understanding
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: when he said page collection, you're going to have a number of links...you need a template...if the API is a follow your nose
#
Lloyd_Fassett
every response includes information about the object
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: If I were creating a client, I'd ask for an entry point and then there would be a discovery process. Is that right
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Elf: yes
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: This is the usecase for Webfinger
#
tantek
q+ to go through the slides and make comments, slide by slide
#
Zakim
sees dret, harry, jtauber, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: link relations, on page or in header
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Arnaud
ack dret
#
Zakim
sees harry, jtauber, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: I am from (didn't hear)
#
AnnBassetti
Siemens
#
AnnBassetti
(I think)
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan when you say API is it http?
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: yes
#
tantek
re: Webfinger - it conflates user URLs vs API URLs which I think is a problem. we've found it better to use h-card for user URL discovery, and <link> etc. HTTP LINK header for API URL discovery.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: we have a lose definition in our charter. We have a lot of pressure to do http restful api, if we don't, we have to explain why
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elf-pavlik
Hypermedia API = full REST API
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: since AS are http based, how is Social API different? HOw do they relate?
#
tantek
FWIW - we have found that the "static site generation" use-case (which numerous people do), makes REST impossible, so we have dumped strict REST
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Lloyd_Fassett
AS is a data format
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oshepherd
tantek: I think I've mentioned this already, but in the draft I'm going to bring shortly, WebFinger is used *only* for mapping acct:username@domain URIs into dereferencable objects and nothing else :-)
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: with links in it
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Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: I think a RESTful api with AS where things are posted/put is close to what is in our charter. Does that make sense?
nicolagreco joined the channel
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tantek
oshepherd: in that case, we have in the simple case that you can skip webfinger and just use the user's URL to get their representative h-card and go from there
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tantek
there's no actual need for webfinger
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Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: You need a relative mapping to explain how other social sites show up
#
oshepherd
tantek: Backwards compatibility with user@domain URIs?
#
tantek
such folks have profile URLs - done
#
sandro
q+ sandro to point out that API in the charter is not this
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Zakim
sees harry, jtauber, tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: That's not where I was going with that. There are a number of API's...http based mostly using JSON that have patterns so you can see your followers, your activity
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: the goal is not to have a Social API....
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: I think there is a great possibility of doing that....the API could talk to Facebook etc on the back end.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: we'd have a social network server to handle that.
#
wilkie
I've found that people will debate whether or not an '@' or a '/' is better until the sun cools
#
Zakim
sees harry, jtauber, tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tanktek: A social proxy server
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tantek
wilkie - turns out people that actually post on the web have a URL for their profile
#
tantek
so if they're debating it on the web, they're already using a '/'
#
tantek
we can judge by actions rather than words
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wilkie
they're just URIs that map identities. webfinger's a little more indirect, so it might be better for service migration, but meh. whooooo caaaaarrrreeees. it's not like webfinger is HARD or anything.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaud: adding use cases for this would be useful. We all come with different backgrounds. IT's important to explain where you are coming from so people know where you are coming from.
#
tantek
hard or not, webfinger is unnecessary. YAGNI = people don't bother implementing at scale.
#
Arnaud
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees jtauber, tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaud: Even terminology is an issue
#
wilkie
tantek: we can say 'turns out' this and that and point to our userbases allllll day. we'll both be correct. we have seen all of these things. that's why they exist.
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oshepherd
tantek: Its' 1 trivial web request if the user who you're attempting to follow has a user@domain URI. Boohoo
#
tantek
a lot of what's been done in indiewebcamp protocols / formats is drop a lot of "1 trivial X"
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sandro
q+ sandro2 to ask whether anyone has a solid proposal for a Resource-style API (because I'm somewhat skeptical that all activities map to this style)
#
Zakim
sees jtauber, tantek, sandro, sandro2 on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
folks, let's leave webfinger in peace for today, it makes it really hard to follow if we have 2 parallel conversations :(
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: I think we have time for James Snell to present to talk about embedded experience
#
Loqi
aww, cheer up
#
tantek
dropping a lot of 1 trivial x type stuff = more publishers and more implementations
#
jasnell
Can definitely give an embedded experience overview
#
tantek
if you like webfinger, great, implement it on your own site
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: Authentication is out of scope. It is being recharged in another WG. We expect new charters by early 2015.
#
tantek
I'm just pointing out trends towards minimalism
#
Zakim
sees jtauber, tantek, sandro, sandro2 on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: What we can use today, longer term thinking, assign JSON payloads, if we need to do digital signatures...do it the ITF way, The CRG...if you're into digital signatures...don't worry there will be ways to do that are supported by browsers.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: public test suites by the end of Dec.
shepazu joined the channel
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: Tanket IETF: SSL issue brings process into question
#
Zakim
sees jtauber, tantek, sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
Lloyd_Fassett, thanks for scribing!!! with current audio i can only read...
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AnnBassetti
hard to hear in the room too, elf
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elf-pavlik
so all in Lloyd_Fassett hands (literaly) :)
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: rolling your own crypto and signatures is a bad idea. For discovery it's the same thing. Things that have been tried include Host meta, webfinger, Mike Jone's version. Look at IETF for the work they've done
#
dret
speak up, everybody!
#
Arnaud
ack jtauber
#
Zakim
sees tantek, sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: when we were talking about verbs and syntatics...events vs states...is that the same as commands vs resources?
#
dromasca
charter on the iesg table for approval as we speal
#
dromasca
speak
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elf-pavlik
dromasca, link?
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: answer: no. Who has looked at Open Social API? (3 hands). It has a single place where you expect Activities, like ATOM. The command model is to fire new activities at that end point.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: they could represent either?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: yes
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: the idea of a resources model where you get a collection of objects, if I was going to get that same information from AS I'd go through the stream
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: The handling of deletion...it's a version of a state...you'd need to know all the events.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: Yes, it's a hard way to manage that mechanism
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: One nice thing about that structure is that it's simple and we can publish quickly, but we'd be kicking the deeper issue into the future
#
Zakim
sees tantek, sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: It's basically the ATOM model. While we can get so far with that approach, this is signicantly better
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: you could provide both current state and audit streams
#
Lloyd_Fassett
EdKrebs: in business lense you need some persistence. In current public state you don't.
#
Arnaud
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to go through the slides and make comments, slide by slide
#
Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
James: this is good for use case work
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jasnell
Lloyd... There are two james' :) James s. And James t.
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Lloyd_Fassett
thank you.
#
jtauber
jasnell: we can't even say the left-handed one ;-)
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elf-pavlik
which page?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: embedding is a different beast than CRUD.
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oshepherd
tantek+1 on this
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dret
for an interesting approach how to persist events such as deletion, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6721 (authored by james, btw) might be interesting to look at.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: one thing about embedded experience with embedded streams is perscibed by the activity generator.
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oshepherd
All we are getting on stream is white noise
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: I thought managing connections vs CRUD interesting...push semantics down into the format.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: that gets back to the Resource model
#
elf-pavlik
evanpro, could you type into IRC nr or title of discussed page?
#
evanpro
But I'm not scribing right now
#
oshepherd
tantek: Audio/video posting from browser... easy if you're just uploading premade files...
#
elf-pavlik
evanpro, but you control slides in a room? we just need page nr to follow
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Video and Audio are hard. Mobile browser support is not working. If we can do Text and Image, Vid and Aud are versions of the first two.
#
oshepherd
tantek: But with AS1 audio/video is no more complicated than images in th API
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: In a business context, Word Processing, Spreadsheets, would be common
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tanktek: pointing to vid conference call "this is real different"
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oshepherd
Punt realtime off into future/IG?
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oshepherd
Realtime is kind of an "event"
#
jtauber
q?
#
Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
#
AnnBassetti
elf demonstrates the upside-down use case
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EdK
q+
#
Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK on the speaker queue
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dret
RTC could be mapped into a different URI-based interaction space, in the same way as tel: URIs allow to provide links into the telephone interaction space.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Other models are difficult non-JSON....the indie camp..using micropub, you can post type of object and number of properties and that's it. If you want to post something with structure the Micropub models requires you post them one at a time.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Lloyd: power went out on projector
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: Let's take a break
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claudio
q+
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Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tanket: Non-json point is that we're not even using html
#
Lloyd_Fassett
webmention is a versino of ping back
#
Lloyd_Fassett
we used that with Micropub as well
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: In a LInked Data way we post them one at a time we post each item to individual URLs and reference those
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Lloyd_Fassett
we haven't run into limitations
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Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaud: that's expensive for systems.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: not really
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Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Non-REST. Everyone in INdie world is from REST
#
Lloyd_Fassett
STatic site generators are a show stopper for REST
#
Lloyd_Fassett
You have to use a common end point
#
elf-pavlik
also CDN ...
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: This is a solid use case. Even the New York Times generates a static site that creates this problem. They are big enough to be considered Enterprise class. THis is an important market signal we need to look at
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: we need to support that
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: we make micropub post calls to a published endpoint.
#
Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: The dataformaty for the client going back to the server is not an important as a shared vocabulary. Making the terms understandable is important.
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elf-pavlik
+1 shared vocab
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Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: we have lots of evidence for both, we need to match up vocabulary
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: We need to specify something.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: JSON-LD vs form POST are the two options
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ahdinosaur
how are SSGs a show stopper for REST?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: there are mulitple micopub implementations now.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: people are creating multiple clients...a person created a Pebble app to publish what he's eating as an example.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: reviewed what the person posted to the group. There's a lot of implementation work there.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: comments on decision slide?
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Strongly wants to separate embedded experience. It's important, but a different problem.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: Is there a procedure we can take that embedded experience as a next step after a client API? It is on our charter.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: The charter is vague on purpose. It would be sad if we didn't deliver an API
#
tantek
welcome aaronpk to the talky!
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aaronpk
joined the talky room
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Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaued: like AS, we are free to split the purpose
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elf-pavlik
hey aaronpk o/
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Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
hi elf! is that you upside down?
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: how many people are interested in Embedded experience? (ans: about 5)
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Parralell to CRUD API
#
elf-pavlik
yes, pretending that i went to southern hemisprhere ;)
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oshepherd
aaronpk: Elf is upside down. I'm the one with the beard. Hopefully the one with the people is obvious :-)
#
aaronpk
what is a summary of "embedded experience"? (sorry I joined late)
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnelss: I see actions as separate from the API work.
#
tantek
and we lost power in the room again
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan to James: Are you embedding actions into a UI that would respond?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: yes
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: That's different than Embedded Experience?
Arnaud joined the channel
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: yes
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: I would be more supportive of that than something that got to DOM level.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: The Open Social API, you can fire anything at that end point, it doesn't tell you anything about followers of where you post or anything else. It's an activity lifecycle
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: We can do that, or we can support verbs (following, voting, etc.)
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: I"m leaning toward including all the verbs in the format and not the API
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oshepherd
tantek++ on in the format. Want to syndicate "follow" to followers, for example :-)
#
Loqi
tantek has 112 karma
#
Lloyd_Fassett
TanteK what is room for extensibility?
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: Can we support new verbs in the AS sense. How should a server handle activities it doesn't understand?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: We're using AS for in devops..checkin, checkout for code, it's not something a typical social system would see. How would a system react if it saw that and didn't understand it or be gerenic on CRUD? That's what we need to figure out
Shane joined the channel
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: If the extensibiliy is in the payload, we can say go ahead and put in whatever you want.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: Tweets deliver exactly just tweets.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Twitter changed the payload for pictures
#
Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry on the speaker queue
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oshepherd
tantek: Question of does server /act/ on your activities
#
oshepherd
e.g. does posting a "follow" activity make the server do something?
#
Zakim
sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
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oshepherd
If not, need separate "follow" endpoint
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Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: Twitter defines the payload and I can only supply that. The alternative is that the endpoint is generic and I decide what is in the payload.
#
tantek
oshepherd: I suppose, it depends?
Arnaud1 joined the channel
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oshepherd
tantek: Probably the pragmatic option
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Lloyd_Fassett
jasnell: IBM Connections you can submit many things to the API, but it might not surface in the UI
#
tantek
oshepherd: typical micropub scenario: publish a post of some time, your server sends webmentions to everything the post links to, and then *those* servers react in some way.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: does an endpoint need to accept anything?
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oshepherd
jasnell: IMO should. Extensibility dictates so.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
AnneB: What's an endpoint? Tantek: An endpoint accepts http post requests. It can be the same server can publish information. STatic sites use proxies to handle requests.
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Arnaud1
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sandro, you wanted to point out that API in the charter is not this
#
Zakim
sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Sandro: http api's are not what the charter says. The charter language use "client side"
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: You can read "client side" in both ways.
#
elf-pavlik
client (app) - server (web service) ?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: it was written to mention html 5, many companies requested embedded experience, that's why it's listed in the deiverables. We are not bound to deliver an API thought for Open Social.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: recharting at this point is a waste of time.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: embedded can be just retrieving AS and it can be thought of as embedded.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: I think we're streching the charter.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Sandro: I'm concerned we don't get patent coverage
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: we'll get it because the licensing comes in at the end. The initial comits to the drafts. At the workshop everyone was asking for embedded experiences, not CRUD, but they are not here.
#
tantek
aaronpk, you may want to read scrollback about micrpub
#
tantek
s/micrpub/micropub
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: aaronpk, you may want to read scrollback about micropub
#
Lloyd_Fassett
jasnell: there are lots of API's, Open Social implementations focuses on their gadgets, not the API. Let's get a good model for embedded experiences and let people create it on their side.
#
Zakim
sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: OpenSocial has both
#
harry
Note that the OpenSocial Submission mixes CRUD and non-CRUD: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2014/SUBM-osapi-20140314/#rfc.section.2.3
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Is anything in OpenSocial in the charter?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: no. It was contribution to the process
#
harry
The term 'client-side' was used on purpose
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaud: I agree with Harry that we're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaud: Can we get that in writing?
#
harry
We can interpret the term 'client-side' API to include both a HTTP CRUD API and Embedded Experiences.
#
harry
In particular, both are in the member submission.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Anne: I think Sandro is correct. I don't follow the discussion.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Eric; I would read the charter as Client Side
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: only?
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: yes
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: Sandro has a good point
#
sandro
We seem to agree to that "Social API" includes HTTP APIs, not just embedded experiences APs
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: We don't want to put embedded experiences out of scope yet. We need to give members a chance to respond. The WG can deliver them in separate documents.
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: It sounds like there would be discomfort on an http API
#
Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: no
AnnBassetti joined the channel
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sandro
PROPOSED: This Working Group interprets "Social API" in include HTTP API (and maybe other things)
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aaronpk
"in include"?
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Lloyd_Fassett
+1
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MarkCrawford
+1
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dromasca
+1
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jtauber
+1
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AnnBassetti
s/follow the discussion./follow the nuance of the discussion. But I think it's important to document the consensus of the group./
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Loqi
AnnBassetti meant to say: AnnBassetti joined #social
dret joined the channel
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AdamB
+1
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sandro
RESOLVED: This Working Group interprets "Social API" to include HTTP API (and maybe other things)
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claudio
+1
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harry
s/in include/to include
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Loqi
harry meant to say: +1
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MarkCrawford
q+
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Zakim
sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, harry, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett
jasnell: the charter says embedded format but nothing about CRUD. Should we include that?
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harry
q- harry
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Zakim
sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett
Sandro: it's too early for that.
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Arnaud
ack sandro
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Zakim
sandro2, you wanted to ask whether anyone has a solid proposal for a Resource-style API (because I'm somewhat skeptical that all activities map to this style)
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Zakim
sees evanpro, EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett
Sandro: resource style...I like the feel of the Resource better, but can you do that for every activity type? I'm dubious
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: I agree, it gets complicated. We may be able to do something that handles mainstream actions. We could extend it with command structure
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Lloyd_Fassett
AdamB: I agree with that.
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Arnaud
ack evanpro
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Zakim
sees EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett
Sandro: ok
jeff joined the channel
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: question about authentication. I agree with Harry. Authentication is already well covered. Most are using OAuth 1.0 or 2.0. There are methods people expect
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Zakim
sees EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: Oath 2.0 has a notion of scopes. If there are specific scopes for Social, we may want to define what those are.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: W3C does lias with IETF. I prefer not to reinvent OAuth.
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Lloyd_Fassett
AnnB: We use SAML
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aaronpk
building on top of OAuth 2.0 is a good idea
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aaronpk
defining scopes would be useful
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tantek
q+ to say Micropub uses IndieAuth which is pluggable, uses OAuth, Persona, SMS, TOTP etc.
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Zakim
sees EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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oshepherd
oauth2++
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Loqi
oauth2 has 1 karma
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Lloyd_Fassett
EdKrebs: We use SAML internally, but with collaboration across partners OATH 2.0 is becoming more important
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oshepherd
need to think about extending it to cover the federated use case
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aaronpk
also note that obtaining authorization is separate from using authorization
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oshepherd
My phone client wants to be able to identify itself to yoursite.com as mysite.com/me
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tantek
aaronpk - I wonder what it would take to plug SAML into IndieAuth
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Arnaud
ack EdK
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Zakim
sees claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
OAuth 2.0 is a way to get authorization, which is represented by an access token string
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harry
We regularly co-ordinate with both IETF re OAuth and OASIS re SAML
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harry
so asking for stuff and having questions should be straightforward.
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aaronpk
then clients present the access token to the server
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Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: We can reconnect with SAML if needed. We can use both with W3C. W3C monitors developments.
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aaronpk
IndieAuth is built on top of OAuth 2.0 where identifiers are URLs, but the end result is also an access token
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oshepherd
SAML is XML based; OAuth2 is JSON based and more widely deployed on the open web. Related tech, e.g. JSON Web (encryption/signing/token) also aligns well with our use case
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Lloyd_Fassett
EdKrebs: Social Applications, idea management. 3 years ago it was horizontal, 2 years ago they crossed processes (prod dev). Now I see Idea Management. It's largely around enterprise activities. It might be somehting the WG would want to prioritize back to the IG.
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aaronpk
this means it's possible to have multiple (incompatible) ways of obtaining access tokens, and as long as the "social API" can accept a bearer token we can deal with authorization as a separate issue
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harry
yes, you will need "an access token"
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Lloyd_Fassett
AnnB: I don't know if it's that different. IBM Jam did that.
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harry
In consumer-facing space, likely OAuth
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Lloyd_Fassett
EdKrebs: it's more than that.
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harry
In enterprise, likely SAML
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Lloyd_Fassett
AdamB: lifecycle of ideas?
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harry
Regardless, we don't reinvent either.
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oshepherd
Note OAuth is picking up adoption in enterprise space
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aaronpk
tantek: I think it wouldn't be a huge stretch to use SAML in an IndieAuth context
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harry
We like both communities and work with both regularly, in particular with help of ISOC
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Lloyd_Fassett
EdKrebs: there are interesting nuances that are new. We've had a lot of vendor demo's in the last few months that sparking some ideas.
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Zakim
sees claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, any special conditions you can think of with CORS enabled?
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Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: Provinance is the piece that is being added. Manage it and track it
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: I'd have to go brush up on SAML before I can answer that
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Provenance is important in indie web. We need it to establish trust. Everything is so distributed.
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elf-pavlik
i meant fo oauth, i know that person has some issues there since server needs to limit Audience for security reasons
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elf-pavlik
s/person/persona/
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Loqi
elf-pavlik meant to say: i meant fo oauth, i know that persona has some issues there since server needs to limit Audience for security reasons
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Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: We seen failed experiments with digital signatures but I expect it to come back.
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Lloyd_Fassett
AnneB: Boeing does not allow anonymous posting. Identity is controlled.
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oshepherd
tantek: Suggest something JSON Web Token based. Use PKI to establish chain of identity from "authority" (Server controling URI)
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Zakim
sees claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack claudio
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Zakim
sees lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett
Claudio: responding to TAntek from an hour ago. I think video conferencing is important.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: we're using peer to peer in this meeting
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Lloyd_Fassett
Claudio: webrtc?
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: yes
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aaronpk
i'm using Chrome btw
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek Chrome Firefox
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aaronpk
for talky
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aaronpk
&yet wrote an iOS app so I can join this talky room from my phone
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: we'd love to see rtc in IOS
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aaronpk
would be nice to see webrtc support in iOS safari though
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Zakim
sees lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, Mozilla Persona limitation which limits its usage with CORS (Explicitly specify the audience parameter) https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Persona/Security_Considerations
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Arnaud
ack lehawes
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Zakim
sees MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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oshepherd
likes that talky works in Android Chrome
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Lloyd_Fassett
Larry: an extension to Sandro's point. There's a problem now for lack of activity definitions. Liking isn't the same everywhere.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: That's reasonsonable. In the AS world we have a schema that is super fuzzy. Especially as words in English like Attach, Consume (eat or watch?)
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Lloyd_Fassett
Activy Schema has to do this
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Lloyd_Fassett
jasnell: throw it up at the wall and document. We need to narrow it down to standardize it.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Eric: If you need something we precise semantics, do your own vocabulary and publish it. We won't see that in our base Schema
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Lloyd_Fassett
Evan: our core set should cover many things
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: 500px has both a heart button and a like button. That pattern is not going to end. Some places have a lot of smily's.
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Arnaud
ack MarkCrawford
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Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
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MarkCrawford
Since I have heard the dreaded IP words raised, I think it might be worthwhile to remind folks in the meeting that only the WG members have made the IP commitment because if I remember correctly, the IG members have no licensing commitment. Also, since we are taking resolutions of the WG, perhaps we should limit the actual polls to WG members only.
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Lloyd_Fassett
jasnell: 500px 'heart' adds to your list, like ads a count of likes
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lehawes
tantek: Thanks! I'll check these out.
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oshepherd
AS1 conflates "favorite" and "like". Perhaps we should disentagle them?
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oshepherd
"favorite" would be a more long term thing, probably have a list of your favorites
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oshepherd
"heart button" would map to favorite
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evanpro
oshepherd: yep, that's pretty complicated
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Lloyd_Fassett
MarkCrawford: IP...we have IG members that have not made WG comittments. We need to be care about taking their contributions. We are taking +1 in the minutes from non WG members.
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tantek
finds it funny that we're debating likes/favorites/hearts, and this WG uses "+1" in IRC ;)
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Lloyd_Fassett
Arnaud: Fair point, but the outcome would not be different.
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jtauber
FWIW: here's my collection of things that a "favorite" in Twitter can mean: https://thoughtstreams.io/jtauber/taxonomy-of-twitter-favorites/
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Arnaud
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to say Micropub uses IndieAuth which is pluggable, uses OAuth, Persona, SMS, TOTP etc.
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett
MarkC: we need to be careful because IG members are not making a commitment
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret
i'd be in favor of not boiling the ocean of formalizing/cataloging/mapping all possible interaction models on social sites.
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Lloyd_Fassett
Harry: Good point
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tantek: Any API that has right to a server will need Authentication. I recommend Indieauth (?).
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evanpro
s/right/write/
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Loqi
evanpro meant to say: oshepherd: yep, that's pretty complicated
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harry
IndieAuth via SAML may be a world of pain :)
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Lloyd_Fassett
Tankek: I asked someone to look at SAML through Indieauth
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aaronpk
sounds like fun :)
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harry
It's got a very nice metadata framework, but just warning you guys
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tantek
thanks aaronpk!
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jasnell
Anything with SAML is a world of pain
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aaronpk
has a way of simplifying things down to the bare minimum to make them work
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Arnaud
PROPOSED: Separate Embedded Experiences from "basic" client API
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tantek
+like
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Zakim
wonders where like is
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tantek
^^^like
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Lloyd_Fassett
Arnauld: Everyone is assuming we'll separate Embedded Experiences from the API. I'd like to make a proposal.
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elf-pavlik
+elf:like
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Zakim
wonders where elf:like is
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Lloyd_Fassett
Jasnell: The way OS did it conflated the issue. They did a gadget that did many different things.
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tantek
+the_coffee_break
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Zakim
wonders where the_coffee_break is
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MarkCrawford
LOL
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Lloyd_Fassett
jasnell: OS embedded experience is too complicated.
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Arnaud
PROPOSED: Separate Embedded Experiences from HTTP client API
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Lloyd_Fassett
jasnell: separating it will make it much easier to get things done
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Zakim
sees evanpro on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack evanpro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
PROPOSED: Separate embedded experiences from HTTP client API
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MarkCrawford
+1
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jtauber
+1