#social 2014-10-27

2014-10-27 UTC
caseorganic, bblfish, ShaneHudson, pfefferle, pfefferle_, KevinMarks, elf-pavlik, cmhobbs and Zakim joined the channel
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elf-pavlik Zakim, list
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Zakim I see no active conferences
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Zakim scheduled at this time are SW_LDP()10:00AM, SW_(DIGPUB)10:00AM, WAI_HTML AT()10:00AM
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elf-pavlik Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim sorry, elf-pavlik, I don't know what conference this is
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wseltzer elf-pavlik, the meeting starts in an hour
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elf-pavlik thx wseltzer!
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elf-pavlik wseltzer, you have broken link to G+ profile on http://wendy.seltzer.org/
bblfish, jasnell and Arnaud joined the channel
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Arnaud zakim, call salon2
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Zakim sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is
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Arnaud zakim, call Salon2
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Zakim sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is
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Arnaud trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 27 October 2014
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Arnaud zakim, this is SOCL
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Zakim sorry, Arnaud, I do not see a conference named 'SOCL' in progress or scheduled at this time
harry and evanpro joined the channel
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harry How many people want to participate remotely?
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evanpro Hi everyone
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harry Zakim, space for 10?
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Zakim ok, harry; conference Team_(social)15:19Z scheduled with code 7625 (SOCL) for 60 minutes until 1619Z
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Zakim sorry, harry, I do not see a conference named 'Team_social' in progress or scheduled at this time
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harry Zakim, this is Team_social
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harry Zakim, this is SOCL
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Zakim harry, I see Team_(social)15:19Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be SOCL".
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harry Zakim, space for 10 for 570 minutes?
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Zakim harry, an adhoc conference was scheduled here less than 2 minutes ago
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harry Zakim, call Salon2
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Zakim ok, harry; the call is being made
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Zakim Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
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Zakim +Salon2
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harry Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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Zakim -Salon2
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Zakim Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
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Zakim Attendees were Salon2
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Zakim Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
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Zakim +[IPcaller]
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Zakim -[IPcaller]
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Zakim Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
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Zakim Attendees were [IPcaller]
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Zakim Team_(social)15:19Z has now started
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Zakim +??P2
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harry Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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harry Zakim, call Salon2
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Zakim ok, harry; the call is being made
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Zakim +Salon2
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on call?
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Zakim I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim On the phone I see ??P2, Salon2
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harry elf, can you say something
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harry we are testing?
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elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P2 is me
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Zakim +elf-pavlik; got it
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik, Salon2
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Arnaud hi
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Arnaud folks are still gathering here
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Arnaud long queue at the registration
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elf-pavlik sounds busy there :)
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elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
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Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
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evanpro Arnaud: http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/
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elf-pavlik Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
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elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
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Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
pfefferle_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), Salon2
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evanpro We're taking a few minutes to let the people waiting in the registration line get to the room
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evanpro I'm going to check on the line and see if we're about ready to begin
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elf-pavlik harry, thanks for setting up VoIP conference! looks like only i needed it :)
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Arnaud we'll start at xx:45
nicolagreco and bblfish joined the channel
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harry I think others will dial-in
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harry I'll send out the info to the mailing list.
lehawes, dromasca, jtauber, nvdbleek, MarkCrawford, claudio, EdK, nicolagreco, AnnBassetti and deiu joined the channel
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AnnBassetti Arnaud: introduces the meeting, process, timeline
Andy_ and AndyF joined the channel
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AnnBassetti wonders if zakim and rrsagent were invited
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deiu they were :)
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AnnBassetti scribenick: Annb
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AnnBassetti thanks
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AnnBassetti Arnaud: 2 items submitted as Working Drafts (on Activity Streams) ...
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AnnBassetti ... need decide what next steps are
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AnnBassetti ... goal for meeting is to come out with upcoming agenda and actions
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AnnBassetti ... tomorrow the IG will bring Use Cases, for consideration by WG
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AnnBassetti ... WG has a specific timeline (2 years), in which to do its work
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AnnBassetti ... IG doesn't have deadline, so has more flexibility to explore
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harry Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
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AnnBassetti Evan: if WG doesn't finish some deliverables, or new ones come, when this charter runs out .. then what happens?
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AnnBassetti Arnaud: need new charter, especially for new deliverables .. due to patent agreements
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AnnBassetti ... today we'll work all day
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AnnBassetti ... tomorrow we'll break between 11-2 for the ad-hoc meetings
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harry q+
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Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti ... we'll adjust the agenda based on discussions this morning
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lehawes What do IG members think about having a breakout meeting/lunch from 11-2 tomorrow? Who is available?
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AnnBassetti I'm available
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti Harry: WebApps Sec WG working on types of protection for various types of content
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AnnBassetti ... Annotations WG has interest for discussions with Social WG .. likely Tues afternoon
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AnnBassetti ... <discussing when it'd be good for 2 groups to meet, for cross-fertilization>
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Arnaud elf can you hear ok?
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lehawes Thanks AnnBasetti! Anyone else from the IG interested in working together in a breakout tomorrow?
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AnnBassetti Lloyd: +1 to Harry
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EdK I can split out into IG session
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harry scribenick: AnnBassetti
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harry should be fine
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elf-pavlik Arnaud, yes I can hear!
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lehawes OK EdK. Thanks!
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti <some attendees having trouble getting into IRC .. trying to figure it out>
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AnnBassetti Evan: presents "Social WG Status"
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harry topic: Social WG
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elf-pavlik http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/
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evanpro Thanks Elf!
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elf-pavlik :)
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AnnBassetti Evan: reviews history of various groups on "social" since 2010 at W3C ..
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AnnBassetti ... immediate causes:
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AnnBassetti ... convergence of open standards work
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AnnBassetti ... increased collaboration between OpenSocial and W3C
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AnnBassetti ... <a couple other points>
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AndyF ;join #social-chat
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harry AndyF, everything is just in #social
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AnnBassetti s/<a couple other points>/Activity Streams 2.0
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Loqi AnnBassetti meant to say: ... Activity Streams 2.0
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AnnBassetti ... increased IndieWeb development
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elf-pavlik also some activity on github: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues
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AnnBassetti ... <Evan covered much more; see his slides>
Shane and AnnBassetti_ joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_ ... hmm, seemed like I was dropped from IRC
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Shane Hi all, I'm around on IRC but afraid I forgot my headphones so can't currently listen in at the moment
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AnnBassetti_ scribenick: AnnBassetti_
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AnnBassetti_ Evan: <continuing his introductory presentation>
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AnnBassetti_ ... very diverse set of team members; many different points of focus
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AnnBassetti_ ... also a challenge is how to interact with the IG
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AnnBassetti_ ... tight schedule; fairly high stakes
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AnnBassetti_ .... big opportunity
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AnnBassetti_ ... Next steps:
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AnnBassetti_ ... 1. Commit to strategies for API and protocol
shepazu joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_ ... 2. Push Social API First Public Working Draft for Q4 2014
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AnnBassetti_ ... 3. Keep federation protocol effort spun up for Q1 2015
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AnnBassetti_ ... Opportunities in 2015 and 2016, to build upon the work of this WG
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AnnBassetti_ Evan: questions? discussion?
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EdK q+
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Zakim sees EdK on the speaker queue
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harry q+
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Zakim sees EdK, harry on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ Arnaud: in addition to adding specific items on REC track, we can also have a "wish list"
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evanpro q?
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Zakim sees EdK, harry on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ .... the further we get into the Rec process, the more rigorous it is; hard to add new stuff; good to put those things on Wish List
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AnnBassetti_ ... then work on those things when re-chartering subsequent work
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AnnBassetti_ ... really helpful to have a wish list for future opportunities
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evanpro ack EdK
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Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ Ed Krebs (Ford): reviewed notes from earlier work ...
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ ... we might want to add PubSubHub onto Wish List .. or IG to discuss
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AnnBassetti_ q+
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Zakim sees AnnBassetti_ on the speaker queue
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evanpro ack AnnBassetti_
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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lehawes q+
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Zakim sees lehawes on the speaker queue
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AndyF IRC working well for me
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AndyF ducking out for TAG meeting
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Arnaud ack lehawes
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ Tantek: gives kudos to Sandro Hawke as Indie developer
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harry +1 sandro
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tantek greetings #social!
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
jeff joined the channel
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harry note that folks can dial -in - also, is KevinMarks stopping by?
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AnnBassetti_ Larry Hawes: could you give us guidance on Use Cases needed for social data syntax?
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harry notes that I just approved his IE application in the DB this morning
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AnnBassetti_ ... since a lot of that work has been done
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jeff present+ jeff
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AnnBassetti_ Evan: yes; a lot of preconception that we'd end up with Activity Streams
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AnnBassetti_ ... not sure what value Use Cases would add at this point ... maybe as validation
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EdK sidenote - most of my Use Case work tries to focus more on federation related issues, moreso than syntax/activity streams
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ James Snell: we don't have very clear use cases for <I missed which>
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AnnBassetti_ ... Need: what is a social profile in activity stream
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AnnBassetti_ Larry: yes, that's what we've focused on
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AnnBassetti_ James: is there a minimal set of social objects we need to provide
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jasnell Ann... was saying that we need use cases and requirements for the additional vocabularies beyond basic activities
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jasnell for instance, what is the vocabulary for a "social profile"
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AnnBassetti_ Arnaud: yes, we inherited this work, so are sort of coming up with solution before defining the problem ..
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jasnell how do we describe people, and the objects acted upon, etc
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AnnBassetti_ ... but still useful to define use cases as documentation, validation,
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AnnBassetti_ Larry: and also 'gap analysis'
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lehawes q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ Lloyd; use case a few years ago re: describing pictures
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AnnBassetti_ ... what happened?
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AnnBassetti_ Evan: SWOT 0 (??)
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jasnell http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
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elf-pavlik Wed session Social WG + Schema.org may have some relevance to broader vocabulary(ies) https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#Schema.org_and_Social_WG
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AnnBassetti_ ... Social Web Acid Test
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AnnBassetti_ thanks
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ s/SWOT 0 (??)/SWAT0
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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EdK SWAT Zero - first use case from federated summit
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AnnBassetti_ James: describes basic use case
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AnnBassetti_ is there a link?
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EdK multiple actors who have accounts on multiple services
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AnnBassetti_ ... 6 basic steps
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jasnell the link is : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
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AnnBassetti_ Lloyd: sounds like something the IG should include in our list
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AnnBassetti_ oh, I see.. that is SWAT0
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jasnell :-)
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AnnBassetti_ thought you had moved on to some other thing
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tantek Note that SWAT0 is a FOUR YEAR OLD use-case
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jasnell wonders if use cases age like fine wine..
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AnnBassetti_ Evan: there are a lot of other use cases that could be detailed out of that one
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tantek see also: http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0
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dromasca Evan: initiate and end subscriptions, approve, etc. - complex space
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elf-pavlik who asked question?
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AnnBassetti_ Lloyd: do we have preference for business-oriented use cases vs more purely social use cases
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Shane I like the way SWAT0 works, covers a lot of problems all at once without having a massive list
wy joined the channel
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AnnBassetti_ Arnaud: 2 diff constituencies here
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ ... we should be equal; a lot of shared requirements
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EdK q+
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Zakim sees jasnell, EdK on the speaker queue
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dromasca Arnaud: SAT - the only uc that was voted about
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dromasca s/SAT/SWAT
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Loqi dromasca meant to say: Arnaud: SWAT - the only uc that was voted about
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees EdK on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ Evan: there are some refinements for the business use cases
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AnnBassetti_ James: would be interesting to describe what addtional requirements are need for business use cases
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AnnBassetti_ +1
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AnnBassetti_ Lloyd: might be like a road map
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees EdK on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack EdK
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dromasca Ann: add 'approval' chain as business dimension of consumer use case
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AnnBassetti_ Ed: recruiting is a cross-over use case ..
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tantek q+ to say, plenty of space on the wiki to document new use-cases as part of the social web IG
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ I was saying there are added levels of complexity on business side
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to say, plenty of space on the wiki to document new use-cases as part of the social web IG
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell Question: How many of these business use cases/requirements actually involve interop/federation across application or organization boundaries? Are these things that the WG needs to standardize?
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AnnBassetti_ Tantek: I'm not convinced there are such strong distinctions
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dromasca tantek: pls. document social business ucs on wiki
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evanpro q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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lehawes I strongly second tantek's plea to document any use case on the wiki. Starting point is http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Use_Case_TF
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AnnBassetti_ Tantek: glad we've got Activity Streams out there as public draft .. and call for exclusions
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AnnBassetti_ ... we need better documentation on use cases for Activity Streams .. both to add and to subtract components from AS
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dromasca q+
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Zakim sees dromasca on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ ... esp important to document use cases for components of Activity Streams that are important for you
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AnnBassetti_ ... to ensure it gets kept in
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elf-pavlik +1 for backing all features with a use case requring it
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AnnBassetti_ ... AS defined as nouns / verbs / objecgts
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AnnBassetti_ ... in IndieWeb camp we discovered we only needed nouns
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AnnBassetti_ Ann: how did you get rid of verbs?
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees dromasca, jasnell on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack dromasca
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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tantek AnnBassetti: you asked for documentation see: http://indiewebcamp.com/ActivityStreams#Verbs_vs_just_posts for example
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AnnBassetti_ Dan Romascanu: <sorry I can't hear>
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MarkCrawford q+
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Zakim sees jasnell, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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lehawes q+
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Zakim sees jasnell, MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ ... asking about how WG approves or selects use cases
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harry q+
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Zakim sees jasnell, MarkCrawford, lehawes, harry on the speaker queue
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harry notes its coffee break time
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AnnBassetti_ Arnaud: at the end, every feature in the spec must have minimum 2 implementations
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harry q- harry
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Zakim sees jasnell, MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ ... also, at the end, if there is a feature that no one wants to implement, that can be an important cue
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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harry q- jasnell
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Zakim sees MarkCrawford, lehawes on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack MarkCrawford
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Zakim sees lehawes on the speaker queue
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dromasca question about how use cases are filtered and consolidated - Arnaud: WG will select a list of pointers to use cases from the IG
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AnnBassetti_ Mark Crawford: IG has in charter, reqt to deliver Use Case report ,,, NOT to support WG, but rather to describe social business .. which is broader than what WG focus is
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AnnBassetti_ ... may use diff formats
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Arnaud ack lehawes
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ Larry: initial focus for IG use cases has been profiles, due to WG focus, but then we'll broaden into others
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lehawes q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti_ <break>
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elf-pavlik thank you AnnBassetti_ for scribing!!!
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AnnBassetti_ you're welcome .. sorry I didn't capture more . hope you guys can hear
jeff, pfefferle, tantek and nicolagreco joined the channel
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim sees on the phone: elf-pavlik (muted), Salon2
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jasnell For those not here in person, I'm going to be showing http://tpac.mybluemix.net/index.html on the screen here once we're back from the break
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elf-pavlik thx jasnell !
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jasnell (warning.. only tested in chrome and firefox ;-) ... sorry ie)
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elf-pavlik Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim elf-pavlik should no longer be muted
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harry note we're on break now
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harry will be restarting in 5 min.
jtauber and nicolagreco_ joined the channel
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elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
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Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
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evanpro scribenick: evanpro
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tantek talky.io/socialwg is live - someone want to try it out?
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evanpro jasnell will present overview of status of AS 2.0
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evanpro Will talk about where we were with 1.0, what's changed with 2.0, what 2.0 looks like, what we need to do
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evanpro http://tpac.mybluemix.net/index.html
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evanpro Simple activity: actor, verb, object
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elf-pavlik tantek, I get "We could not get access to your microphone or camera." and only 'Take me back' button
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evanpro No i18n, no language context
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evanpro But can get basic info across
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evanpro flat namespace
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evanpro 2.0 activity
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evanpro additional context
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evanpro @id for id, some other info
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evanpro In 1.0 MediaLink objects
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evanpro url used inconsistently in 1.0
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evanpro "url"
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evanpro Never really clearly defined what it points to
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tantek elf-pavlik: talky is two way so we can see who is watching
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evanpro Limited set of properties for MediaLink: height, width, mediaType
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evanpro AS 1.0 base schema with common verb and object type definitions
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evanpro e.g. person, video
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tantek greetings folks on Talky - could you introduce yourselves in IRC?
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evanpro embedCode for HTML version of the item
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Zakim -elf-pavlik
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tantek Talky users - how's the audio quality?
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evanpro Use cases in base schema were either concrete or not very concrete
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elf-pavlik tantek, ok-ish
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evanpro Not everything took off as implementable
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elf-pavlik i think better than SIP
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tantek great!
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tantek better than SIP is an improvement :)
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evanpro geolocation defined in base schema 1.0 became core in 2.0
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elf-pavlik thx tantek! :)
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evanpro Priority e.g.
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tantek np elf-pavlik
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evanpro Most of base schema is not yet in AS 2.0 vocabulary
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evanpro Many verbs from basic schema 1.0 are in use by processors today
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evanpro Do we need standard identifiers for verbs?
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elf-pavlik can i get link to your AS1.0 feeds? :)
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evanpro 4 people implement activity streams
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evanpro 2 consuming, 4 publishing
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tantek AS 1.0 ^^^^
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tantek 1 consuming implementation is only behind a firewall
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evanpro List of implementers are on the wiki
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evanpro Changes from 1.0
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tantek for the record - at the meeting for consming, only jasnell and evanpro raised their hands.
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evanpro http://tpac.mybluemix.net/whatsnew.html
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tantek s/consming/consuming
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Loqi tantek meant to say: for the record - at the meeting for consuming, only jasnell and evanpro raised their hands.
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Zakim disconnecting the lone participant, Salon2, in Team_(social)15:19Z
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Zakim Team_(social)15:19Z has ended
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Zakim Attendees were Salon2, elf-pavlik
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harry elf-pavlik, you want to dial back in?
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harry anyone else?
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elf-pavlik harry, i stick to talky for now :)
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harry ok.
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evanpro evan asks: some mechanisms for 1.0 to 2.0 compatibility around media type
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evanpro tantek: asks no backward compatibility for XML version?
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evanpro jasnell: no
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evanpro XML version never made it to 1.0
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evanpro Added elements: inReplyTo, replies
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evanpro audience targetting: to, bto, cc, bcc
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evanpro priority
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evanpro location
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evanpro tantek: to be fair, I'm consuming from many clients, see https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/wiki/Clients
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tantek I'm only supporting publishing AS 1.0 / XML FWIW
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tantek because it was easy to add it to my existing Atom feed
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evanpro changed options, include "duration"
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tantek have not done the work to try to publish any JSON AS
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evanpro tags and attachments changed to singular
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wilkie rstatus only supports AS 1.0 through XML too :/
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evanpro 2.0 supports language map
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evanpro wilkie: I believe it's the same for GNU Social and Diaspora
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tantek wilkie AS/XML solidarity!
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wilkie yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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tantek :)
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evanpro height and width are pixels
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evanpro upstream/downstreamDuplicates are deprecated
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wilkie I am writing the JSON stuff though to catch up. :) the new backend code produces AS 1.0 json but doesn't consume/discover it just yet.
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elf-pavlik I didn't hear question
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AnnBassetti_ Sandro asked how language here relates to language in json-ld
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evanpro Sandro asks what the relationship is between language in AS 2.0 and JSON-LD language
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tantek evanpro - could you minute question?
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/21
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evanpro jasnell replies that there is additional language support in AS 2.0 since not all processors will support JSON-LD language
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evanpro Example: unmapped verbs
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evanpro With unmapped verbs like "post", these become skolems in JSON-LD
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evanpro can add some verb namespace to avoid this problem
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evanpro By adding context
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evanpro Another example shows expanded actors or object
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evanpro multiple actors and object
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evanpro actors and objects referred to just by ID
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evanpro object using the link class
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evanpro "Link" class means that object is dereferenceable
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evanpro and has a representation by the given media type
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evanpro "multiple types"
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evanpro Link (= dereferenceable) and "Blog Post" (= role)
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evanpro Can use multiple vocabularies using JSON-LD
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evanpro e.g. vCard
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evanpro Actually call out "vcard:" prefix for non-JSON-LD processors
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evanpro AS relies on other vocabularies
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Lloyd_Fassett_ q+
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Zakim sees Lloyd_Fassett_ on the speaker queue
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evanpro tantek asks where namespace expansion happens
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evanpro jasnell says, it's part of the JSON-LD process, using the "@context" property
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Lloyd_Fassett_ q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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evanpro how do we use microformats ontologies in the JSON-LD
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AnnBassetti_ Lloyd asked if skills are represented .. .
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AnnBassetti_ answer: no
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tantek note that the w3c vcard namespace is old vcard3. there is vcard4 now. and h-card
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tantek which is based on vcard4
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evanpro simple collections: using AS 1.0 similar links
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elf-pavlik Q: do you use different URI for collecition and its first page?
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evanpro geolocation using W3C geo basic
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evanpro geolocation using GeoSPARQL is also possible
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evanpro example of attachment, similar to email
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hadleybeeman waves at #socialweb
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AnnBassetti_ waves back
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evanpro Simple link: example 14
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evanpro "rel" is issue for JSON-LD
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elf-pavlik thx jasnell
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evanpro jasnell responds to question: yes, we do have different identifiers per page and for the collection
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evanpro language example:
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evanpro "language" defines default language context for all properties
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AnnBassetti <Tantek gives brief overview to talky.io .. noting that we're seeing elf-pavlik, and he sees at least part of the room>
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evanpro This doesn't come through to JSON-LD
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evanpro Since "@language" only attaches to a property
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evanpro Can also add "@context" to "@language"
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AnnBassetti s/question: yes,/elf's question: yes,/
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Loqi AnnBassetti meant to say: <Tantek gives brief overview to talky.io .. noting that we're seeing elf-pavlik, and he sees at least part of the room>
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AnnBassetti I don't get that Loqi thing
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evanpro Question: how easy do we want this to be for non-JSON-LD consumers?
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evanpro AnnBassetti: logging bot for this channel
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AnnBassetti hmmm ..
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tantek wseltzer arrives
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AnnBassetti in addition to rrsagent?
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evanpro @context allows us to declare separate properties which can have default language
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evanpro So "displayName_en"
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evanpro AnnBassetti: yes
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AnnBassetti pourquoi?
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evanpro Need a better solution for language context
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elf-pavlik could someone pleaes type questions to IRC?
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evanpro Sandro points out that we need to have a review at Last Call for i18n
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elf-pavlik thx :)
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evanpro jasnell points out that there will be a11y issues here too
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evanpro AnnBassetti points out naming conventions issue
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evanpro e.g. family name and individual name
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AnnBassetti See Richard Ishida's excellent article: http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names
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evanpro dromasca asks accessibility, via language analysis
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AnnBassetti he is lead of i18n activity in W3C
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evanpro jasnell says much of the use case is JSON -> HTML
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evanpro e.g. does a link need alt text
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AnnBassetti i18n = "internationalization" ... 1st and last letters, with 18 letters in-between
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elf-pavlik comment: possible issues with using as:alias to reference other resources (instead their @id) https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/25
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evanpro Note on slides: http://tpac.mybluemix.net/ are up for review
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evanpro todos: activitystrea.ms possible to use as ns:
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evanpro Not a lot using the 2.0 namespace
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evanpro Question around namespace URI: use dates or not?
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evanpro Another question: backwards compatibility?
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evanpro Use a namespace for 1.0 base schema?
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tantek welcome barnabywalters - is that you we see on talky?
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evanpro tantek asks, can we kick this question of NS to someone else?
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wseltzer notes http://www.w3.org/2005/07/13-nsuri
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barnabywalters greetings tantek!
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barnabywalters yup, that’s me
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evanpro evan asks, do we have authority to mint namespaces in /ns/
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tantek barnabywalters joins via talky
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evanpro sandro answers, and Arnaud confirms: yes
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AnnBassetti cool .. I wondered who popped up!
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elf-pavlik hi barnabywalters o/
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barnabywalters hi elf-pavlik!
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evanpro sandro questions whether "/" or "#" should end the namespace
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harry The hash versus slash debate is preventing the Semantic Web from creating the singularity, BTW
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harry for 15 years!
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evanpro One document with a hash, or multiple documents?
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elf-pavlik +1 # :D
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wilkie +0 :)
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harry www.example.org/ns#term
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harry www.example.org/ns/term
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sandro http://example.com/activitystreams/verb
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evanpro this would need to go to the JSON-LD context document per jasnell
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sandro http://example.com/activitystreams#verb
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harry +1
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jasnell http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#
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evanpro PROPOSED: adoption of "http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#" as namespace for Activity Streams 2.0
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jasnell +1
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sandro jtauber: +1
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evanpro +1
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harry any objections?
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harry any objections?
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wilkie +1
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evanpro RESOLVED: adoption of "http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#" as namespace for Activity Streams 2.0
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evanpro closing this issue
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evanpro jasnell continues, what to do with base schema 1.0
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evanpro Does need to be heavily influenced by use cases
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AnnBassetti Evan: as an Activity Streams implementer .. I can say that most of the verbs here are core to what happens in social software (follow, join, ...)
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AnnBassetti ... others not so much
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AnnBassetti ... questions if it makes sense to define a core schema, with others more tangential
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AnnBassetti Tantek: to counter Evan's point, many implementations discovered they could make those verbs into nouns
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evanpro jasnell says everything becomes a noun for IBM too
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AnnBassetti James: in IBM's experience, that's true re: nouns
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evanpro Very frist version did not have verbs
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tantek AnnBassetti: to be clear *every* implementation done by someone in the IndieWebCamp community. not just "most"
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AnnBassetti thanksTantek
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tantek numerous at this point - dozens
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evanpro verb becomes optional
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evanpro fall back on object type
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AnnBassetti Sandro: can you explain why you like verbs?
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AnnBassetti Evan: more comfortable with activity referring to action / actor / object
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elf-pavlik tantek, can you try reduce mic just a bit? it sounds link you have strong winds there ;)
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tantek elf-pavlik: that might be the computer fan :/
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elf-pavlik i don't think so, i just get thos FX after each word said
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barnabywalters I think it’s just artifacts from a laptop mic being used to try to record an entire room
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tantek barnabywalters: we're using the Logitech HD camera and mic
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tantek I can reload and see if it helps
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barnabywalters tantek: weird — compression artefacts maybe then?
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AnnBassetti Ann: does this have to be decided now?
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AnnBassetti Arnaud: no, but we should open an issue
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tantek barnabywalters, elf-pavlik just reloaded
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barnabywalters now there are silent clones
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AnnBassetti <name?> asks what was the advantage the IndieWeb folks got from this other syntax
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elf-pavlik tantek, can we just try reducing mic sensitivity a little?
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AnnBassetti ... this is largely a syntax issue, right?
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AnnBassetti Tantek: good question
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AnnBassetti ... we've been proceeding cautiously
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AnnBassetti Sandro: is it 1- or 2- degrees of freedom?
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evanpro Likes, favorites, RSVPs, favorites all work as nouns
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AnnBassetti ... we need 2, if they are truly orthogonal
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evanpro question of whether the representation is the event versus the state of the world after the fact
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evanpro transmission is a notification mechanism
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elf-pavlik Q: can we consider schema.org approach with "@type": "LikeAction" similar to your noun approach? ( jasnell might have already said someting about it earlier)
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evanpro "verb": "like" vs. "@type": "LikeAction"
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AnnBassetti s/<name?>/James Tauber /
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Loqi AnnBassetti meant to say: ... we need 2, if they are truly orthogonal
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Arnaud ISSUE: Should we drop verbs and only use nouns/object type instead?
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trackbot is creating a new ISSUE.
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trackbot Created ISSUE-3 - Should we drop verbs and only use nouns/object type instead?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/3/edit>.
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/23
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elf-pavlik as:Verb & as:verb possibly not needed #23
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AdamB CRUD
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sandro CRUD = Create, Read, Update, Delete
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evanpro evan asks if verb -> type has JSON-LD advantages
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evanpro type and kind are different axes
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elf-pavlik you can define properties with rdfs:domain and rdfs:range for subtypes
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elf-pavlik see: http://schema.org/participant
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sandro why not try to resolve the issue, if we have consensus
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evanpro Implementation experience with indieweb has been that types can be implied
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harry q+
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Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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evanpro type can be implicit
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jtauber_ q+
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Zakim sees jtauber_ on the speaker queue
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evanpro objectType is not required for 1.0 as
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evanpro some implementations use it, some don't
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harry so as long as its not required and optional, we are OK if people end up using it implicitly
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees jtauber_, evanpro on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack jtauber
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Zakim sees evanpro on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik having types might make it esasier to filter them
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tantek sandro asked for a mapping from properties to implied types - here's what we have so far in IndieWebCamp: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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evanpro sandro asks if we can skip the typing
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evanpro or mapping properties of types
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sandro sandro: can we have an official machine-readable mapping from properties to the types they imply?
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evanpro generic property name for indieweb s "in reply to"
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evanpro RSVP has its own properties
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Arnaud ack evanpro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti compared to re-posts
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tantek RSVP has its own property with its own values
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dret maybe that's a good case for postel's law? be strict in what you produce and liberal in what you accept? implied info makes systems robust but also a bit vulnerable to misinterpretations, right?
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sandro evanpro: I prefer explicit types to inferred types
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evanpro Question for social API endpoint receiving an activity as a command
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AnnBassetti Tantek: could we capture this as an issue?
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AnnBassetti Arnaud: what, exactly, is the issue?
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AnnBassetti <discussion>
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elf-pavlik sandro, would you see IndieWeb implicit types similar to rdfs:domain inference?
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evanpro Is the typing implicit in the presence of a property or explicit in a type or "verb" property
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sandro elf-pavlik, yes, but I don't think it's helpful to get into that in this group
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elf-pavlik roger!
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jtauber_ jtauber: jtauber: explicit types allow more generic properties (if properties can be used to infer types AND we have explicit types then the property names have redundancy)
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jtauber_ wanted to scribe myself, not meta-scribe myself
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elf-pavlik hey ahdinosaur :D
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ahdinosaur hey elf :)
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barnabywalters one interesting side effect I’ve observed and discussed of having implicit types via properties is that a single post can have multiple “types” e.g. be a like and a comment at the same time
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barnabywalters there are several people in the IWC community who regularly publish these types of posts
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Arnaud ISSUE: Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names?
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trackbot is creating a new ISSUE.
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trackbot Created ISSUE-4 - Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/4/edit>.
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elf-pavlik "@type": ["LikeAction", "CommentAction"]
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elf-pavlik barnabywalters, ^
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barnabywalters elf-pavlik: that would probably be the AS equivalent — do any AS implementations actively publish or consume (i.e. display intelligently) activities like that?
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elf-pavlik barnabywalters, AS1 didn't allow it
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elf-pavlik http://tpac.mybluemix.net/whatsnew.html
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evanpro harry points out that we can leave it and see what happens next
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barnabywalters elf-pavlik: I don’t really care if it was *allowed*, I care who uses it ;)
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evanpro Arnaud notes that it doesn't have to be one or the other
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Shane barnabywalters++ Rules don't matter if people have a reason to ignore them
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Loqi barnabywalters has 75 karma
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evanpro Can use MUST, SHOULD, or MAY to switch between different options
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wilkie people may want to use them because human beings are more creative than machines, and extensibility still matters
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evanpro jasnell notes that we don't currently have a vocabulary of activities except 1.0 base schema
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barnabywalters more specifically, the UIs which were used to create and display those activites
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wilkie if people want to reduce social data to sludge because sludge is all protocol designers believe people need, more power to you :)
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tantek wilkie - so far everything published by indiewebcamp implementations are *exactly* what *people* want to publish, not protocol designers
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tantek exclusively so
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wilkie less "here's what people do" and more "what can we do to handle people doing more without extensive changes to implementations?"
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wilkie yeah, well, if your only benchmark is replicating a stream of tweets, then you'll get what you have, no kidding.
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tantek wilkie - so far every different meaningful "type" has needed changes to implementations because its the UX of those implementations that matter in terms of different types
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tantek wilkie - stream of tweets was IndieWeb 2010, we're well past that
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wilkie no, if you don't understand a type, you can read the display name or content common to all types
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tantek right, h-entry gives you that
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wilkie then you filter by verb so that you only really try your best at reading 'post' activities
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tantek "content common to all types" are the properties defined in h-entry
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wilkie yes, there is a mapping
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tantek so far implied-typing appears to the be things are evolving: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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wilkie I really wish indie web cared about extensibility and interop instead of trying to tell everybody that they solved every problem because there is only one problem worth solving :P
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aaronpk lol
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evanpro sandro points out that subclassing
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wilkie if only indie web were a community that wasn't so passive aggressive about how to do things right too
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wilkie oh well. we'll get there in spite of it all, I'm fairly optimistic
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elf-pavlik evanpro, can you please try to minute little more in IRC, i get pretty bad sound now :(
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tantek wilkie - microformats2 is extensible - which is why the indiewebcamp community has been able to so easily add support for and implement new (implied) types
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evanpro elf-pavlik: working on it
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tantek wilkie - not sure what you mean about passive-aggressive - indiewebcamp is openly demanding of documentation of use-cases and selfdogfooding. even #social WG demands documentation of use-cases.
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evanpro sandro points out that subclassing relationship ("love" is a subclass of "like") may benefit from using @type version propertyname ("likeOf", "loveOf") or verb "like" "love"
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evanpro q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik tantek, wilkie: can we plesae try to stick to the converation in a room? i really have hard time to follow now :'(
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Shane Also it isn't about doing things right, it is about learning from experience. Just look at how webmentions are changing with vouch etc
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evanpro tantek says that users don't differentiate between types of content, e.g. image and text
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evanpro so text with attachment versus image with caption
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sandro tantek: Sometimes the users don't know what the "type" is of what they're doing, so maybe explicit typing would be hard
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tantek remote folks, we are breaking for lunch but will leave the camera on
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tantek on talky
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elf-pavlik tantek, can we try adjusting mic gain a bit
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timeless RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight <- if you want a single log for the two days
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RRSAgent I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight <- if you want a single log for the two days', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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oshepherd_ WebRTC: Brand new and more reliable than SIP. The world we live in.
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oshepherd wishes he could be at TPAC instead of fighting with crappy EDA tools
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rektide i wish talky would let me in in spectator mode. i have no mic nor video on this laptop. "You are about to join a video chat" modal dialog on screen with "We could not get access to your microphone or camera"
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wilkie same
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gRegor I could hear you, barely, elf-pavlik
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gRegor That's a bit better
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gRegor very good, elf-pavlik
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gRegor elf-pavlik: mic quality is better
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elf-pavlik jasnell, could you please ask tantek when he comes back to reduce mic gain? we get a lot of artefacts in the sound :(
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jasnell elf: will do
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elf-pavlik thx :)
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Arnaud still waiting for people to be back in the room
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EdK some folks still returning from lunch, should be able to get started in about 5 minutes ((1;10pm Pacific)
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evanpro Arnaud: http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/
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lehawes Back from lunch :>)
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jasnell Elf, tantek is not back yet. once he is I'll ask him about the mic gain
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Arnaud about to start
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jasnell hey Elf.. what time was that breakout session for wednesday supposed to be? do you remember?
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elf-pavlik 9:15AM
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rektide there's no alternative to the talky (which those of us without webconf broadcast gear can't use) ?
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elf-pavlik rektide, we used Zakim before but talky had better sound
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elf-pavlik which now doesn't work that well any more...
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lehawes Arnaud: Do we know what time the IG presentation will be tomorrow morning?
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gRegor good, tantek
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gRegor audio died
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harry scribenick: harry
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harry Zakim, call Salon1
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Zakim sorry, harry, I don't know what conference this is
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gRegor audio's back
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harry topic: Social API
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harry evanpro: Presenting slides and then open discussion
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gRegor I'm the other person, lurking :)
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harry ... this is next in deliverable list
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AnnBassetti Evan presents slides re: Social API
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AnnBassetti http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/
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harry scribenick: Ann Bassetti
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harry scribenick: AnnBassetti
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harry if you can scribe Ann, that would be great
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harry since you seem to be already doing it :)
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AnnBassetti not for long .. tendinitis
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Lloyd_Fassett I can take it
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AnnBassetti I thought you were
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AnnBassetti ok, cool
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Lloyd_Fassett Issues" Cpmf;atopm pf AS amd E,bedded experiences /
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elf-pavlik thx Lloyd_Fassett ! sometimes we get poor audio so minutes *help us a lot* to follow
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Lloyd_Fassett Examples of Social API: Twitter / Facebook / OpenSocial
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Lloyd_Fassett elf - can you see the slides?
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elf-pavlik yes, i have them on second screen
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Lloyd_Fassett If we can't make something that has a passing resemblance to these API's, we're on the wrong track.
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elf-pavlik q+ re: Action Handlers / Hypermedia Controls / Hypermedia API
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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jasnell If it's helpful to folks, I can give a quick overview of how the OpenSocial spec is organized
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Lloyd_Fassett We need reusable libraries, you should be able to point a social client at a new service and it should just work
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Lloyd_Fassett It should be possible be to implement an API facade
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Lloyd_Fassett Social API's manage social connections, publish content, manage responses..a light application platform
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elf-pavlik tantek, if you have mic settings to reduce gain / boos just 10% or so it could reduce artifacs in sound ...
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Lloyd_Fassett There's not just a one way follow, but a two way...join a group (manage circles), manage list of friends...manage a group of other accounts can be very useful
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Lloyd_Fassett Larry Dawes: Does it need to be two way?
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: Twitter is one way, Facebook is two way, G+ is either
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Lloyd_Fassett Social content publication management CRUD...should be able to handle basic types...not all services would handle all
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Lloyd_Fassett Responses: typically there is a way to manage responses: Like, vote, comment, reply, share..redistributing content to your followers
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Lloyd_Fassett Social Applications: event invitations, polls, Q&A, Games, etc.
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elf-pavlik AFAIK both IBM and Boing have Q&A systems
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Lloyd_Fassett Models: 1. Command, 2. Resource.
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AdamB Boeing does have an Q&A system
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Lloyd_Fassett Resource model is more common
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Lloyd_Fassett represent URI's, use http to modify.
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Lloyd_Fassett Example: post 'tantek' to a stream of information
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oshepherd Important thing with resource model, syndicating activities is harder
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Lloyd_Fassett You can have a uniform interface with this...get an endpoint.
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Lloyd_Fassett downside is 'unfollowing' and other actions are harder to do
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Lloyd_Fassett other models will take us off the beaten path of social software
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Lloyd_Fassett non-JSON representation and non-RESTful are off the beaten path
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dret q+
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, dret on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Proposals under discussion are Open Social - very command oreinted, http verbs against an AS
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Lloyd_Fassett use Put to update elements in that stream
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Lloyd_Fassett very nice straight forward API
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Lloyd_Fassett We need to make some changes from current state of it.
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Lloyd_Fassett Pump.io (Evan works on this) is a hybrid of command and resource.
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Lloyd_Fassett I think we need more proposals, or start working on them internally
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tantek bunch more on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates
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Lloyd_Fassett we need endpoints
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek suggested micropub as an option to consider
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Lloyd_Fassett We need to make a number of decions, we need to get on the path to resolving them.
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tantek with existing multiple client and server micropub implementations
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Lloyd_Fassett first is understanding embedded experience
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oshepherd tantek: micropub is publish-only, no?
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Lloyd_Fassett Embedded experiences is a nice system that works with Open Social, but we'll need a lot of work to get it going
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tantek oshepherd: not sure what you mean? people are using it for CRUD for various post types - which is the core of social API as described
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harry q+
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, dret, harry on the speaker queue
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oshepherd tantek: Micropub is a publishing API, doesn't let you fetch /your/ incoming stream
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jasnell Our actions proposal addressees the embedded experiences stuff, separates it from the api
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Lloyd_Fassett How deep does social API go in a application?
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tantek oshepherd: you mean HTTP GET ?
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Lloyd_Fassett What verbs and domain concepts should be supported, how extensibility is needed?
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Lloyd_Fassett Other important issues that we may want to punt on are authentication, discovery (will you be able to take an identified user and discover endpoints / AS etc.)
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oshepherd tantek: What I get with GET http://mypumpserver.com/api/username/inbox, i.e. the activities addressed at me and of everyone I'm following
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaud: Thank you Evan
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Arnaud ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Action Handlers / Hypermedia Controls / Hypermedia API
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elf-pavlik eg. http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/triple-pattern-fragments/#controls
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Zakim sees dret, harry on the speaker queue
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jtauber q+
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Zakim sees dret, harry, jtauber on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik "This hypermedia control must be present because there purposely does not exist a fixed URL format that servers of triple pattern fragments need to follow. This means that clients of triple pattern fragments must not need prior knowledge of a server, i.e., they must not assume a certain URL pattern. Instead, clients must interpret the hypermedia control in each triple pattern fragment in order to retrieve another fragment."
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elf-pavlik http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2014Sep/0044.html
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elf-pavlik [Lecture] REST, Hypermedia, and the Semantic Gap: Why "RMM Level-3 REST" is not enough
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tantek no existing hydra implementations for the record
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: do you know implementation of that? Elf: no
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Lloyd_Fassett (I can't tell what Elf is saying)
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: that's wildly unlike any Social API's I talked about at the beginning
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Lloyd_Fassett those typically have well defined URL's. I don't know what the starting point would be if we don't give structure to URLs.
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Lloyd_Fassett Elf: you can sense it in the header.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: how?
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Lloyd_Fassett (I didn't understand answer)
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AnnBassetti sympathizes with Lloyd's problem understanding
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Lloyd_Fassett James: when he said page collection, you're going to have a number of links...you need a template...if the API is a follow your nose
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Lloyd_Fassett every response includes information about the object
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: If I were creating a client, I'd ask for an entry point and then there would be a discovery process. Is that right
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Lloyd_Fassett Elf: yes
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Lloyd_Fassett James: This is the usecase for Webfinger
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tantek q+ to go through the slides and make comments, slide by slide
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Zakim sees dret, harry, jtauber, tantek on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: link relations, on page or in header
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Arnaud ack dret
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Zakim sees harry, jtauber, tantek on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: I am from (didn't hear)
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AnnBassetti Siemens
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AnnBassetti (I think)
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan when you say API is it http?
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: yes
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tantek re: Webfinger - it conflates user URLs vs API URLs which I think is a problem. we've found it better to use h-card for user URL discovery, and <link> etc. HTTP LINK header for API URL discovery.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: we have a lose definition in our charter. We have a lot of pressure to do http restful api, if we don't, we have to explain why
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elf-pavlik Hypermedia API = full REST API
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: since AS are http based, how is Social API different? HOw do they relate?
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tantek FWIW - we have found that the "static site generation" use-case (which numerous people do), makes REST impossible, so we have dumped strict REST
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Lloyd_Fassett AS is a data format
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oshepherd tantek: I think I've mentioned this already, but in the draft I'm going to bring shortly, WebFinger is used *only* for mapping acct:username@domain URIs into dereferencable objects and nothing else :-)
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: with links in it
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: I think a RESTful api with AS where things are posted/put is close to what is in our charter. Does that make sense?
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tantek oshepherd: in that case, we have in the simple case that you can skip webfinger and just use the user's URL to get their representative h-card and go from there
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tantek there's no actual need for webfinger
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elf-pavlik http://martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.html
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: You need a relative mapping to explain how other social sites show up
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oshepherd tantek: Backwards compatibility with user@domain URIs?
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tantek such folks have profile URLs - done
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sandro q+ sandro to point out that API in the charter is not this
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Zakim sees harry, jtauber, tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: That's not where I was going with that. There are a number of API's...http based mostly using JSON that have patterns so you can see your followers, your activity
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: the goal is not to have a Social API....
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: I think there is a great possibility of doing that....the API could talk to Facebook etc on the back end.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: we'd have a social network server to handle that.
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wilkie I've found that people will debate whether or not an '@' or a '/' is better until the sun cools
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees harry, jtauber, tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Tanktek: A social proxy server
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tantek wilkie - turns out people that actually post on the web have a URL for their profile
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tantek so if they're debating it on the web, they're already using a '/'
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tantek we can judge by actions rather than words
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wilkie they're just URIs that map identities. webfinger's a little more indirect, so it might be better for service migration, but meh. whooooo caaaaarrrreeees. it's not like webfinger is HARD or anything.
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaud: adding use cases for this would be useful. We all come with different backgrounds. IT's important to explain where you are coming from so people know where you are coming from.
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tantek hard or not, webfinger is unnecessary. YAGNI = people don't bother implementing at scale.
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees jtauber, tantek, sandro on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaud: Even terminology is an issue
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wilkie tantek: we can say 'turns out' this and that and point to our userbases allllll day. we'll both be correct. we have seen all of these things. that's why they exist.
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oshepherd tantek: Its' 1 trivial web request if the user who you're attempting to follow has a user@domain URI. Boohoo
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tantek a lot of what's been done in indiewebcamp protocols / formats is drop a lot of "1 trivial X"
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sandro q+ sandro2 to ask whether anyone has a solid proposal for a Resource-style API (because I'm somewhat skeptical that all activities map to this style)
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Zakim sees jtauber, tantek, sandro, sandro2 on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik folks, let's leave webfinger in peace for today, it makes it really hard to follow if we have 2 parallel conversations :(
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: I think we have time for James Snell to present to talk about embedded experience
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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tantek dropping a lot of 1 trivial x type stuff = more publishers and more implementations
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jasnell Can definitely give an embedded experience overview
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tantek if you like webfinger, great, implement it on your own site
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: Authentication is out of scope. It is being recharged in another WG. We expect new charters by early 2015.
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tantek I'm just pointing out trends towards minimalism
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elf-pavlik q?
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Zakim sees jtauber, tantek, sandro, sandro2 on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: What we can use today, longer term thinking, assign JSON payloads, if we need to do digital signatures...do it the ITF way, The CRG...if you're into digital signatures...don't worry there will be ways to do that are supported by browsers.
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: public test suites by the end of Dec.
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: Tanket IETF: SSL issue brings process into question
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees jtauber, tantek, sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik Lloyd_Fassett, thanks for scribing!!! with current audio i can only read...
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AnnBassetti hard to hear in the room too, elf
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elf-pavlik so all in Lloyd_Fassett hands (literaly) :)
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: rolling your own crypto and signatures is a bad idea. For discovery it's the same thing. Things that have been tried include Host meta, webfinger, Mike Jone's version. Look at IETF for the work they've done
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dret speak up, everybody!
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Arnaud ack jtauber
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Zakim sees tantek, sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
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dromasca https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
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Lloyd_Fassett James: when we were talking about verbs and syntatics...events vs states...is that the same as commands vs resources?
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dromasca charter on the iesg table for approval as we speal
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dromasca speak
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elf-pavlik dromasca, link?
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: answer: no. Who has looked at Open Social API? (3 hands). It has a single place where you expect Activities, like ATOM. The command model is to fire new activities at that end point.
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Lloyd_Fassett James: they could represent either?
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: yes
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: the idea of a resources model where you get a collection of objects, if I was going to get that same information from AS I'd go through the stream
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Lloyd_Fassett James: The handling of deletion...it's a version of a state...you'd need to know all the events.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: Yes, it's a hard way to manage that mechanism
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: One nice thing about that structure is that it's simple and we can publish quickly, but we'd be kicking the deeper issue into the future
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees tantek, sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett James: It's basically the ATOM model. While we can get so far with that approach, this is signicantly better
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Lloyd_Fassett James: you could provide both current state and audit streams
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Lloyd_Fassett EdKrebs: in business lense you need some persistence. In current public state you don't.
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to go through the slides and make comments, slide by slide
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett James: this is good for use case work
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jasnell Lloyd... There are two james' :) James s. And James t.
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Lloyd_Fassett thank you.
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jtauber jasnell: we can't even say the left-handed one ;-)
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elf-pavlik which page?
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: embedding is a different beast than CRUD.
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oshepherd tantek+1 on this
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dret for an interesting approach how to persist events such as deletion, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6721 (authored by james, btw) might be interesting to look at.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: one thing about embedded experience with embedded streams is perscibed by the activity generator.
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oshepherd All we are getting on stream is white noise
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: I thought managing connections vs CRUD interesting...push semantics down into the format.
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: that gets back to the Resource model
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elf-pavlik evanpro, could you type into IRC nr or title of discussed page?
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evanpro http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/
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evanpro But I'm not scribing right now
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oshepherd tantek: Audio/video posting from browser... easy if you're just uploading premade files...
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elf-pavlik evanpro, but you control slides in a room? we just need page nr to follow
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Video and Audio are hard. Mobile browser support is not working. If we can do Text and Image, Vid and Aud are versions of the first two.
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oshepherd tantek: But with AS1 audio/video is no more complicated than images in th API
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: In a business context, Word Processing, Spreadsheets, would be common
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Lloyd_Fassett Tanktek: pointing to vid conference call "this is real different"
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oshepherd Punt realtime off into future/IG?
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oshepherd Realtime is kind of an "event"
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jtauber q?
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro on the speaker queue
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AnnBassetti elf demonstrates the upside-down use case
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EdK q+
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK on the speaker queue
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dret RTC could be mapped into a different URI-based interaction space, in the same way as tel: URIs allow to provide links into the telephone interaction space.
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Other models are difficult non-JSON....the indie camp..using micropub, you can post type of object and number of properties and that's it. If you want to post something with structure the Micropub models requires you post them one at a time.
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Lloyd_Fassett Lloyd: power went out on projector
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: Let's take a break
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claudio q+
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio on the speaker queue
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Arnaud http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/?full#19
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Lloyd_Fassett Tanket: Non-json point is that we're not even using html
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Lloyd_Fassett webmention is a versino of ping back
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Lloyd_Fassett we used that with Micropub as well
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: In a LInked Data way we post them one at a time we post each item to individual URLs and reference those
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Lloyd_Fassett we haven't run into limitations
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaud: that's expensive for systems.
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: not really
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Non-REST. Everyone in INdie world is from REST
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Lloyd_Fassett STatic site generators are a show stopper for REST
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Lloyd_Fassett You have to use a common end point
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elf-pavlik also CDN ...
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: This is a solid use case. Even the New York Times generates a static site that creates this problem. They are big enough to be considered Enterprise class. THis is an important market signal we need to look at
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: we need to support that
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: we make micropub post calls to a published endpoint.
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elf-pavlik q?
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: The dataformaty for the client going back to the server is not an important as a shared vocabulary. Making the terms understandable is important.
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elf-pavlik +1 shared vocab
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: we have lots of evidence for both, we need to match up vocabulary
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: We need to specify something.
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tantek FYI micropub: https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: JSON-LD vs form POST are the two options
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Arnaud http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/?full#20
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ahdinosaur how are SSGs a show stopper for REST?
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: there are mulitple micopub implementations now.
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tantek http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: people are creating multiple clients...a person created a Pebble app to publish what he's eating as an example.
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: reviewed what the person posted to the group. There's a lot of implementation work there.
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Arnaud http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC-API/?full#21
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: comments on decision slide?
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Strongly wants to separate embedded experience. It's important, but a different problem.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: Is there a procedure we can take that embedded experience as a next step after a client API? It is on our charter.
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: The charter is vague on purpose. It would be sad if we didn't deliver an API
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tantek welcome aaronpk to the talky!
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaued: like AS, we are free to split the purpose
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elf-pavlik hey aaronpk o/
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell on the speaker queue
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aaronpk hi elf! is that you upside down?
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: how many people are interested in Embedded experience? (ans: about 5)
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Parralell to CRUD API
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elf-pavlik yes, pretending that i went to southern hemisprhere ;)
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oshepherd aaronpk: Elf is upside down. I'm the one with the beard. Hopefully the one with the people is obvious :-)
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aaronpk what is a summary of "embedded experience"? (sorry I joined late)
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnelss: I see actions as separate from the API work.
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tantek and we lost power in the room again
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan to James: Are you embedding actions into a UI that would respond?
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: yes
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: That's different than Embedded Experience?
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: yes
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: I would be more supportive of that than something that got to DOM level.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: The Open Social API, you can fire anything at that end point, it doesn't tell you anything about followers of where you post or anything else. It's an activity lifecycle
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: We can do that, or we can support verbs (following, voting, etc.)
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: I"m leaning toward including all the verbs in the format and not the API
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oshepherd tantek++ on in the format. Want to syndicate "follow" to followers, for example :-)
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Loqi tantek has 112 karma
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Lloyd_Fassett TanteK what is room for extensibility?
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: Can we support new verbs in the AS sense. How should a server handle activities it doesn't understand?
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: We're using AS for in devops..checkin, checkout for code, it's not something a typical social system would see. How would a system react if it saw that and didn't understand it or be gerenic on CRUD? That's what we need to figure out
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: If the extensibiliy is in the payload, we can say go ahead and put in whatever you want.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: Tweets deliver exactly just tweets.
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Twitter changed the payload for pictures
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harry q+
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry on the speaker queue
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oshepherd tantek: Question of does server /act/ on your activities
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oshepherd e.g. does posting a "follow" activity make the server do something?
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lehawes q+
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Zakim sees sandro, sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
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oshepherd If not, need separate "follow" endpoint
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: Twitter defines the payload and I can only supply that. The alternative is that the endpoint is generic and I decide what is in the payload.
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tantek oshepherd: I suppose, it depends?
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oshepherd tantek: Probably the pragmatic option
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Lloyd_Fassett jasnell: IBM Connections you can submit many things to the API, but it might not surface in the UI
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tantek oshepherd: typical micropub scenario: publish a post of some time, your server sends webmentions to everything the post links to, and then *those* servers react in some way.
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: does an endpoint need to accept anything?
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oshepherd jasnell: IMO should. Extensibility dictates so.
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Lloyd_Fassett AnneB: What's an endpoint? Tantek: An endpoint accepts http post requests. It can be the same server can publish information. STatic sites use proxies to handle requests.
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Arnaud1 ack sandro
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Zakim sandro, you wanted to point out that API in the charter is not this
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jasnell q?
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Zakim sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
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Zakim sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, jasnell, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
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jasnell q-
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Zakim sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Sandro: http api's are not what the charter says. The charter language use "client side"
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: You can read "client side" in both ways.
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elf-pavlik client (app) - server (web service) ?
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: it was written to mention html 5, many companies requested embedded experience, that's why it's listed in the deiverables. We are not bound to deliver an API thought for Open Social.
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: recharting at this point is a waste of time.
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: embedded can be just retrieving AS and it can be thought of as embedded.
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: I think we're streching the charter.
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Lloyd_Fassett Sandro: I'm concerned we don't get patent coverage
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: we'll get it because the licensing comes in at the end. The initial comits to the drafts. At the workshop everyone was asking for embedded experiences, not CRUD, but they are not here.
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tantek aaronpk, you may want to read scrollback about micrpub
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tantek s/micrpub/micropub
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk, you may want to read scrollback about micropub
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Lloyd_Fassett jasnell: there are lots of API's, Open Social implementations focuses on their gadgets, not the API. Let's get a good model for embedded experiences and let people create it on their side.
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, harry, lehawes on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: OpenSocial has both
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harry Note that the OpenSocial Submission mixes CRUD and non-CRUD: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2014/SUBM-osapi-20140314/#rfc.section.2.3
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Is anything in OpenSocial in the charter?
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: no. It was contribution to the process
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harry The term 'client-side' was used on purpose
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaud: I agree with Harry that we're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaud: Can we get that in writing?
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harry We can interpret the term 'client-side' API to include both a HTTP CRUD API and Embedded Experiences.
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harry In particular, both are in the member submission.
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Lloyd_Fassett Anne: I think Sandro is correct. I don't follow the discussion.
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric; I would read the charter as Client Side
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: only?
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: yes
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: Sandro has a good point
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sandro We seem to agree to that "Social API" includes HTTP APIs, not just embedded experiences APs
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: We don't want to put embedded experiences out of scope yet. We need to give members a chance to respond. The WG can deliver them in separate documents.
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: It sounds like there would be discomfort on an http API
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: no
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sandro PROPOSED: This Working Group interprets "Social API" in include HTTP API (and maybe other things)
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sandro +1
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evanpro +1
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aaronpk "in include"?
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Lloyd_Fassett +1
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oshepherd +1
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jasnell +1
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MarkCrawford +1
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dromasca +1
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rhiaro +1
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elf-pavlik +1
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jtauber +1
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lehawes +1
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harry +1
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AnnBassetti s/follow the discussion./follow the nuance of the discussion. But I think it's important to document the consensus of the group./
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Loqi AnnBassetti meant to say: AnnBassetti joined #social
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tantek +1
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AdamB +1
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sandro RESOLVED: This Working Group interprets "Social API" to include HTTP API (and maybe other things)
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claudio +1
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harry s/in include/to include
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Loqi harry meant to say: +1
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MarkCrawford q+
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Zakim sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, harry, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett jasnell: the charter says embedded format but nothing about CRUD. Should we include that?
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harry q- harry
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Zakim sees sandro2, evanpro, EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Sandro: it's too early for that.
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dret +1
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Arnaud ack sandro
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Zakim sandro2, you wanted to ask whether anyone has a solid proposal for a Resource-style API (because I'm somewhat skeptical that all activities map to this style)
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Zakim sees evanpro, EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Sandro: resource style...I like the feel of the Resource better, but can you do that for every activity type? I'm dubious
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: I agree, it gets complicated. We may be able to do something that handles mainstream actions. We could extend it with command structure
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Lloyd_Fassett AdamB: I agree with that.
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Arnaud ack evanpro
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Zakim sees EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Sandro: ok
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: question about authentication. I agree with Harry. Authentication is already well covered. Most are using OAuth 1.0 or 2.0. There are methods people expect
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: Oath 2.0 has a notion of scopes. If there are specific scopes for Social, we may want to define what those are.
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: W3C does lias with IETF. I prefer not to reinvent OAuth.
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Lloyd_Fassett AnnB: We use SAML
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aaronpk building on top of OAuth 2.0 is a good idea
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harry http://oauth.net/2/
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aaronpk defining scopes would be useful
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tantek q+ to say Micropub uses IndieAuth which is pluggable, uses OAuth, Persona, SMS, TOTP etc.
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Zakim sees EdK, claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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oshepherd oauth2++
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Loqi oauth2 has 1 karma
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Lloyd_Fassett EdKrebs: We use SAML internally, but with collaboration across partners OATH 2.0 is becoming more important
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oshepherd need to think about extending it to cover the federated use case
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aaronpk also note that obtaining authorization is separate from using authorization
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oshepherd My phone client wants to be able to identify itself to yoursite.com as mysite.com/me
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tantek aaronpk - I wonder what it would take to plug SAML into IndieAuth
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Arnaud ack EdK
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Zakim sees claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk OAuth 2.0 is a way to get authorization, which is represented by an access token string
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harry We regularly co-ordinate with both IETF re OAuth and OASIS re SAML
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harry so asking for stuff and having questions should be straightforward.
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aaronpk then clients present the access token to the server
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: We can reconnect with SAML if needed. We can use both with W3C. W3C monitors developments.
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aaronpk IndieAuth is built on top of OAuth 2.0 where identifiers are URLs, but the end result is also an access token
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oshepherd SAML is XML based; OAuth2 is JSON based and more widely deployed on the open web. Related tech, e.g. JSON Web (encryption/signing/token) also aligns well with our use case
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Lloyd_Fassett EdKrebs: Social Applications, idea management. 3 years ago it was horizontal, 2 years ago they crossed processes (prod dev). Now I see Idea Management. It's largely around enterprise activities. It might be somehting the WG would want to prioritize back to the IG.
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aaronpk this means it's possible to have multiple (incompatible) ways of obtaining access tokens, and as long as the "social API" can accept a bearer token we can deal with authorization as a separate issue
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harry yes, you will need "an access token"
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Lloyd_Fassett AnnB: I don't know if it's that different. IBM Jam did that.
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harry In consumer-facing space, likely OAuth
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Lloyd_Fassett EdKrebs: it's more than that.
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harry In enterprise, likely SAML
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Lloyd_Fassett AdamB: lifecycle of ideas?
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harry Regardless, we don't reinvent either.
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oshepherd Note OAuth is picking up adoption in enterprise space
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aaronpk tantek: I think it wouldn't be a huge stretch to use SAML in an IndieAuth context
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harry We like both communities and work with both regularly, in particular with help of ISOC
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Lloyd_Fassett EdKrebs: there are interesting nuances that are new. We've had a lot of vendor demo's in the last few months that sparking some ideas.
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, any special conditions you can think of with CORS enabled?
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: Provinance is the piece that is being added. Manage it and track it
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: I'd have to go brush up on SAML before I can answer that
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Provenance is important in indie web. We need it to establish trust. Everything is so distributed.
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elf-pavlik i meant fo oauth, i know that person has some issues there since server needs to limit Audience for security reasons
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elf-pavlik s/person/persona/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: i meant fo oauth, i know that persona has some issues there since server needs to limit Audience for security reasons
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: We seen failed experiments with digital signatures but I expect it to come back.
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Lloyd_Fassett AnneB: Boeing does not allow anonymous posting. Identity is controlled.
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oshepherd tantek: Suggest something JSON Web Token based. Use PKI to establish chain of identity from "authority" (Server controling URI)
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees claudio, lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack claudio
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Zakim sees lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett Claudio: responding to TAntek from an hour ago. I think video conferencing is important.
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: we're using peer to peer in this meeting
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Lloyd_Fassett Claudio: webrtc?
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: yes
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aaronpk i'm using Chrome btw
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek Chrome Firefox
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aaronpk for talky
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aaronpk &yet wrote an iOS app so I can join this talky room from my phone
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: we'd love to see rtc in IOS
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aaronpk would be nice to see webrtc support in iOS safari though
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees lehawes, MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, Mozilla Persona limitation which limits its usage with CORS (Explicitly specify the audience parameter) https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Persona/Security_Considerations
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Arnaud ack lehawes
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Zakim sees MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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oshepherd likes that talky works in Android Chrome
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Lloyd_Fassett Larry: an extension to Sandro's point. There's a problem now for lack of activity definitions. Liking isn't the same everywhere.
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tantek Larry, see http://indiewebcamp.com/like and http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite and in particular http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Variants
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: That's reasonsonable. In the AS world we have a schema that is super fuzzy. Especially as words in English like Attach, Consume (eat or watch?)
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Lloyd_Fassett Activy Schema has to do this
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Lloyd_Fassett jasnell: throw it up at the wall and document. We need to narrow it down to standardize it.
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Lloyd_Fassett Eric: If you need something we precise semantics, do your own vocabulary and publish it. We won't see that in our base Schema
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Lloyd_Fassett Evan: our core set should cover many things
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: 500px has both a heart button and a like button. That pattern is not going to end. Some places have a lot of smily's.
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Arnaud ack MarkCrawford
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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MarkCrawford Since I have heard the dreaded IP words raised, I think it might be worthwhile to remind folks in the meeting that only the WG members have made the IP commitment because if I remember correctly, the IG members have no licensing commitment. Also, since we are taking resolutions of the WG, perhaps we should limit the actual polls to WG members only.
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Lloyd_Fassett jasnell: 500px 'heart' adds to your list, like ads a count of likes
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lehawes tantek: Thanks! I'll check these out.
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oshepherd AS1 conflates "favorite" and "like". Perhaps we should disentagle them?
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oshepherd "favorite" would be a more long term thing, probably have a list of your favorites
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oshepherd "heart button" would map to favorite
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evanpro oshepherd: yep, that's pretty complicated
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Lloyd_Fassett MarkCrawford: IP...we have IG members that have not made WG comittments. We need to be care about taking their contributions. We are taking +1 in the minutes from non WG members.
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tantek finds it funny that we're debating likes/favorites/hearts, and this WG uses "+1" in IRC ;)
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnaud: Fair point, but the outcome would not be different.
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jtauber FWIW: here's my collection of things that a "favorite" in Twitter can mean: https://thoughtstreams.io/jtauber/taxonomy-of-twitter-favorites/
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to say Micropub uses IndieAuth which is pluggable, uses OAuth, Persona, SMS, TOTP etc.
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett MarkC: we need to be careful because IG members are not making a commitment
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lehawes q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret i'd be in favor of not boiling the ocean of formalizing/cataloging/mapping all possible interaction models on social sites.
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Lloyd_Fassett Harry: Good point
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Lloyd_Fassett Tantek: Any API that has right to a server will need Authentication. I recommend Indieauth (?).
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evanpro s/right/write/
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Loqi evanpro meant to say: oshepherd: yep, that's pretty complicated
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harry IndieAuth via SAML may be a world of pain :)
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Lloyd_Fassett Tankek: I asked someone to look at SAML through Indieauth
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aaronpk sounds like fun :)
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harry It's got a very nice metadata framework, but just warning you guys
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tantek thanks aaronpk!
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jasnell Anything with SAML is a world of pain
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aaronpk has a way of simplifying things down to the bare minimum to make them work
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Arnaud PROPOSED: Separate Embedded Experiences from "basic" client API
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oshepherd +1
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tantek +like
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Zakim wonders where like is
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tantek ^^^like
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Lloyd_Fassett Arnauld: Everyone is assuming we'll separate Embedded Experiences from the API. I'd like to make a proposal.
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elf-pavlik +elf:like
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Zakim wonders where elf:like is
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Lloyd_Fassett Jasnell: The way OS did it conflated the issue. They did a gadget that did many different things.
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tantek +the_coffee_break
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Zakim wonders where the_coffee_break is
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MarkCrawford LOL
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Lloyd_Fassett jasnell: OS embedded experience is too complicated.
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Arnaud PROPOSED: Separate Embedded Experiences from HTTP client API
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Lloyd_Fassett jasnell: separating it will make it much easier to get things done
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jasnell +1
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees evanpro on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack evanpro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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oshepherd +http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#like :-)
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Arnaud PROPOSED: Separate embedded experiences from HTTP client API
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evanpro +1
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oshepherd +1
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dret +1
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MarkCrawford +1
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jtauber +1
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elf-pavlik +0
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jasnell +1
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tantek like
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sandro +1
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AdamB +1
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Arnaud RESOLVED: Separate embedded experiences from HTTP client API
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jasnell "@type":"as:like"
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tantek 💛
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sandro ♥
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sandro <3
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elf-pavlik "@type": ["elf:like", "as:like"]
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oshepherd proposal: rename "as:like" to "as:♥" ;-)
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oshepherd Audio has gone to hell :-(
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elf-pavlik oshepherd, nice IRI :)
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elf-pavlik as:♥
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams#♥
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oshepherd Anonymous person on talky is me, crawled into bed :-)
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harry We are re-convening
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harry topic: Federation
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dromasca federation protocol
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dromasca going through the charter
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dromasca evan: distributing status updates between different servers
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dromasca two use cases
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dromasca distributed consumers
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dromasca 2. business colaboration
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dromasca taking data between two security domains probably implemented as servers
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dromasca feed identified by address or id and subscribe model
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dromasca other mechanisms that may work - peer2peer ; but we assume it's rather a server to server mechanism
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dromasca feed and sindication - depends in the way social api ends looking like
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dret q+
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Zakim sees dret on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik harry, i have PoC decentralized system which uses The Bayeux for pub/sub http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html
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elf-pavlik s/system/system implementation/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: harry, i have PoC decentralized system implementation which uses The Bayeux for pub/sub http://svn.cometd.org/trunk/bayeux/bayeux.html
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees dret, evanpro on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack dret
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Zakim sees evanpro on the speaker queue
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harry Note that we did ask for Pubsubhubbub to be listed as an input to the charter which would require W3C RF licensing, and BradFitz didn't see any reason to move the spec from its current location or change anything.
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harry So I think Pubsubhubbub is off limits for Rec-track.
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oshepherd +1 for integrating both into one common protocol
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Arnaud ack evanpro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/
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harry ACTION: See if BradFitz did sign on off W3C OWF licensing.
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 1
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trackbot Error finding 'See'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
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harry ACTION: hhalpin to see if BradFitz did sign on off W3C OWF licensing.
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 2
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trackbot Created ACTION-5 - See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-11-03].
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dromasca Webmention
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elf-pavlik http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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dromasca previous implementations were not federating with other
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dromasca exception - diaspora one way federation
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harry http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/participants
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harry BTW, the answer seems to be neither Brett nor Brad signed the W3C Community License :(
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dromasca every implementation gor its federation protocol
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dromasca looking at pingback
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dromasca 1-1 use case - comment on my side, see it on your side
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dromasca source marked up - this is an entry, got author, content,
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dromasca federating comments - more implementations than any other procotol
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dromasca now events, notifications - use webmention
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jasnell_ q+
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Zakim sees jasnell_ on the speaker queue
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dromasca thin protocol based on existing publishing resources
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dromasca basic flaw of pingback - automated spam problem
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dromasca invite open review - is the automated spam problem solved?
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dromasca Arnaud: with pingback one can accept or not . tue here?
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harry q+
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Zakim sees jasnell_, harry on the speaker queue
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dromasca yes, true
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dromasca James: what if firewall in between?
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
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dromasca uses httppost
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees harry, evanpro on the speaker queue
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dromasca harry: solved the spam problem - what about industry implementation?
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Lloyd_Fassett dromasca: should be either jasnell or jtauber
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/vouch
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees evanpro on the speaker queue
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dromasca jasnell
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oshepherd tantek: I suggested hashcash in the past. What happened to that line of thought?
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dromasca analog art flowchart on screen
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dromasca vouch flowchart
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dromasca vouch url - you believe the recipient will approve, and links to sender
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elf-pavlik eg. list of participants in some event which you participated
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dromasca a trust model that does not require any terms of trust!
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elf-pavlik you could use https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/registrants#SW as vouch url
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dret webmention looks interesting as a solution to the problem it is solving (better pingback), but it's bit hard to see how it actually applies to the federation API mentioned in the charter.
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dromasca bar raised enough to solve the automated spam problem?
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Arnaud ack evanpro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek q+ sandro
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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oshepherd If you have WebMention follow actions and disconnected PubSubHubub subscriptions, you've reinvented the worst aspect of OStatus!
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Arnaud ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell q+
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Zakim sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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dromasca Sandro - assumption that everybody on its own domain? what if not - vouch would not reflect
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dromasca Sandro - not vouching from twitter but vouching to twitter
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dromasca why is vouch based on domain?
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/lj2006
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dromasca history - explained on subdomain page
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dromasca webmention - when sending again the semantics is 'i updated' or 'i deleted my comment', etc.
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jtauber q+
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Zakim sees jasnell, jtauber on the speaker queue
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context
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dromasca replay-context - tw came with it, came on url,
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/recursive_reply-contexts
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AdamB q+ how do you see webmentions working in a corporate environment?
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Zakim AdamB, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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AdamB q+, how do you see webmentions working in a corporate environment?
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Zakim AdamB, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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dromasca recursive reply-context ; chained reply-context or 'transitive'
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AdamB q+
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Zakim sees jasnell, jtauber, AdamB on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack jasnell
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Zakim sees jtauber, AdamB on the speaker queue
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tantek jasnell: agrees with the domain-level vouch
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oshepherd jasnell: If you can't make that callback, the link is useless anyway!
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dromasca jasnell: needs to cross firewall, cannot be just dropped
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dromasca put content in initial post, not to lose the content
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elf-pavlik jasnell, with application/x-www-form-urlencoded nesting may not work very well...
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dromasca jasnell: how you mention profile information? use webfinger to discover?
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Arnaud ack jtauber
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Zakim sees AdamB on the speaker queue
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dromasca jasnell - lot of objects that do not have http id - need to be discovered
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sandro jasnell: In a lot of our use cases, we have a lot of objects which do not have HTTP URIs
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sandro q+ to ask jasnell whether it's feasible to give them all HTTP URIs
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Zakim sees AdamB, sandro on the speaker queue
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dromasca jtauber - how generic can this go? any resource to any resource
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dromasca yes - can go general
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jasnell sandro: it can be possible indirectly... webfinger is one way of accomplishing that
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sandro q-
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Zakim sees AdamB on the speaker queue
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sandro thanks
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Arnaud ack AdamB
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dromasca AdamB - how it would work in enterprise environment where subdomains are not wide spread?
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dromasca use direct addressing, no need for vouch - do they have spam problems internally
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dromasca jasnell - may have croo-org
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dromasca cross-organizations
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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AdamB q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dromasca Evan - Linked Data Platform next?
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dromasca sandro - does not understand why it's there
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dromasca harry - it was reuested
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dromasca sandro - take the http idea of posting to create resource - formalize create a container which has a link to each content list
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tantek q+ to ask is anyone federating comments (or other interactions) using LDP?
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees tantek, evanpro on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik q+ to ask about http://cimba.co and http://crosscloud.org/
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Zakim sees tantek, evanpro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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dromasca Arnaud - LDP at lower level, not app specific
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tantek cleaned up "webmention with vouch" flow diagram: https://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-285-webmention-vouch-drawing.png
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dromasca not specific for feferation
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dromasca Arnaud - process point of view - LDP goes to PR, if it fits could be used
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to ask is anyone federating comments (or other interactions) using LDP?
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Zakim sees evanpro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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dromasca sandro - only if it fits
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dromasca tantek - anyone tempting to federate?
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dromasca sandro - me and Andrei
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AnnBassetti s/tempting /attempting /
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Loqi AnnBassetti meant to say: s/follow the discussion./follow the nuance of the discussion. But I think it's important to document the consensus of the group./
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elf-pavlik tantek, check out http://cimba.co - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_XaJ97rF0
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elf-pavlik q-
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Zakim sees evanpro on the speaker queue
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evanpro q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees evanpro on the speaker queue
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dromasca sandro - emulate twitter experience, but does not scale (60k users, 20k servers), using simba, LDP server + access control
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dromasca sandro - one client implementation, one server
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Arnaud ack evanpro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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harry q+
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Zakim sees harry on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik sandro, cimba == kima ? https://github.com/rww-apps/kima
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dromasca evanpro - would it be reasonable to sketch this process on wiki as proposal> looks close with things done on JSON-LD. Does it make sense? can we sketch on wikki
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dret q+ LDP as AS platform
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Zakim dret, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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dret q+, LDP as AS platform
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Zakim dret, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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dret q+
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Zakim sees harry, dret on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik dret use q+ re:
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dromasca sandro - hesitates, not sure about use case
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elf-pavlik q-
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Zakim sees harry, dret on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees dret on the speaker queue
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dret aha. thanks, elf
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elf-pavlik q?
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Zakim sees dret on the speaker queue
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evanpro http://www.openwebfoundation.org/announcements/introducingtheopenwebfoundationagreement
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harry I'm happy to talk through OpenSocial HTTP API with Sandro
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elf-pavlik q+ re: friendship claims in federated network
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Zakim sees dret, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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dromasca owf - dates 2009 - still valid?
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harry q+
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Zakim sees dret, elf-pavlik, harry on the speaker queue
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dromasca harry - somebody familiar explain pluses and minuses of pubsubhubb -
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evanpro q+ discuss pubsubhubbub
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Zakim sees dret, elf-pavlik, harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack dret
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub on the speaker queue
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tantek dret: PuSH is not a federation protocol, it's a pushing protocol
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dromasca dret- pubsubhubbub - push protocol -
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tantek dret: the latest version hollowed it completely
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tantek dret: going to be hard to get interoperability
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dromasca sandro - 0.4?
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tantek evanpro: 0.4
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tantek evanpro: idea was to decouple from Atom (XML)
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AnnBassetti I like @dret's terse statement: "pubsubhubbub is not the federation protocol; it's the push protocol" ... would be helpful to have such an annotation on all these
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tantek evanpro: and make it more applicable for other payloads such as images or JSON
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tantek evanpro: it doesn't specify a ping paylod, so you can't do fat pings
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dromasca evanpro - other payloads
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AnnBassetti (although all you geeks may be clear on all of that)
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MarkCrawford q+
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford on the speaker queue
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evanpro q+
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford, evanpro on the speaker queue
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford, evanpro on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack elf
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss friendship claims in federated network
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Zakim sees harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford, evanpro on the speaker queue
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tantek hence you need provenance
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dromasca elf-pavlik: silos, simetric relation, i can publish any claims - how people can verify claims?
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AnnBassetti s/simetric /symmetric /
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tantek this is one of the reasons we found we had to nounify everything in indieweb
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Loqi AnnBassetti meant to say: (although all you geeks may be clear on all of that)
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tantek so you could cite the posts
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tantek that made the claims
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harry ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim sees harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford, evanpro on the speaker queue
fabien-gandon joined the channel
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tantek q+ to reply to elf re: verifying relationships in a distributed social network, why we nounify things even like following
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Zakim sees harry, discuss, pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford, evanpro, tantek on the speaker queue
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jasnell we need symmetric webmention... initial webmention can include an identifier, that the receiver must include on their side, mention back to the original, that is then verified
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dromasca evanpro - rough idea - verify information stored on different servers
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Arnaud ack harry
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Zakim sees discuss, pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford, evanpro, tantek on the speaker queue
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evanpro ack discuss
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Zakim sees pubsubhubbub, MarkCrawford, evanpro, tantek on the speaker queue
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evanpro ack pubsubhubbub
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Zakim sees MarkCrawford, evanpro, tantek on the speaker queue
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aaronpk jasnell: interesting... see current work on webmention status using identifiers for individual webmentions: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Asynchronous_status_polling
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sandro q?
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Zakim sees MarkCrawford, evanpro, tantek on the speaker queue
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fabien-gandon wave hello
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dromasca tantek - pubsuhubbub - working since 2010
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tantek tantek looks up a citation for that ;)
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jtauber sounds like a slogan
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dromasca evanpro - the primary use activity strings, allows for activities info to flow accross the connection
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Arnaud ack evanpro
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Zakim sees MarkCrawford, tantek on the speaker queue
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dromasca sandro - xml only?
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dromasca evanpro - not any longer
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sandro apologizes for mischaracterizing it earlier -- I missed 0.4 coming out
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AnnBassetti waves at fabien-gandon
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dromasca feature to broadcast to large number of subscribers
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tantek I've published notes with PubSubHubbub on tantek.com since 2010-02-01: http://tantek.com/2010/032/t3/bits-tweeting-from-my-site-favicon-twitter-pubsubhubbub
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dromasca well supported for produces of atom feeds - bloggers, etc.
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jasnell http://blog.superfeedr.com/state-of-pubsubhubbub/
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dromasca downside - no access control mechanis,