#social 2015-02-10

2015-02-10 UTC
harry, bret, mattl and JakeHart joined the channel
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Loqi Bill-looby made 3 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/API Usage Patterns]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81193&oldid=81164
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Loqi Bill-looby made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/Enterprise Contexts]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81194&oldid=81160
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Loqi Bill-looby made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/Enterprise Contexts]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81195&oldid=81194
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-02-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81197&oldid=81145
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-02-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81198&oldid=81197
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Loqi Bill-looby made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81199&oldid=81176
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Loqi Bill-looby made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81201&oldid=81199
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RRSAgent excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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Loqi Lfi made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81202&oldid=81201
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Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81204&oldid=81202
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Loqi Aaronpk made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/Enterprise Contexts]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81206&oldid=81195
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Loqi Tsyesika made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81208&oldid=81204
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-02-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81209&oldid=81198
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cwebber2 hello!
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cwebber2 sorry I did not make last week's and forgot to send regrets, I was stuck in an airport.
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cwebber2 meta-regrets
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Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-02-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81210&oldid=81209
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81212&oldid=81208
hhalpin, eprodrom, tantek, harry, dret and AdamB joined the channel
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dret zakim, who's here?
bblfish and dret joined the channel
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dret zakim, who's here?
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Arnaud no one yet :)
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aaronpk not even Zakim
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Arnaud zakim, isn't even here
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Arnaud indeed :)
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dret arnaud, it feels so lonely!
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Arnaud trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 10 February 2015
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dret zakim, who's here?
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Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has not yet started, dret
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Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, dret, bblfish, AdamB, harry, tantek, eprodrom, hhalpin, cwebber2, nicolagreco, AnnB, tilgovi, barnabywalters, jaensen_, danbri, shepazu, JakeHart, mattl,
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Zakim ... bret, ben_thatmust, ShaneHudson, wilkie, Loqi, melvster1, dwhly, KevinMarks, Arnaud, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro, oshepherd, rektide, Tsyesika, ben_thatmustbeme, kylewm,
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Zakim ... aaronpk, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
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cwebber2 dialing in
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Arnaud dret, are you on the call yet?
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dret arnaud, i just re-called, but it still feels lonely.
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tantek calling in
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Arnaud zakim, this is socl
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Zakim ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
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AnnB hmm .. me too .. hearing nothing
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Zakim +??P0
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Zakim +WSeltzer
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dret annb, good i am not the only one!
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tantek zakim, ??p0 is me
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Zakim +tantek; got it
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Zakim +Sandro
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AnnB oh .. just heard Tantek
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Zakim +??P7
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cwebber2 just dialed in
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tantek Zakim: ??p7 is cwebber2
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wseltzer zakim, who is here?
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Zakim On the phone I see AdamB, aaronpk, +1.510.206.aabb, Ann, tantek, WSeltzer, Sandro, ??P7
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Zakim On IRC I see jasnell, Zakim, RRSAgent, dret, bblfish, AdamB, harry, tantek, eprodrom, hhalpin, cwebber2, AnnB, tilgovi, barnabywalters, jaensen_, danbri, shepazu, JakeHart, mattl,
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Zakim ... bret, ben_thatmust, ShaneHudson, wilkie, Loqi, melvster1, dwhly, KevinMarks, Arnaud, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro, oshepherd, rektide, Tsyesika, ben_thatmustbeme, kylewm,
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Zakim ... aaronpk, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
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tantek zakim, ??p7 is cwebber2
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Zakim +Arnaud
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Zakim +cwebber2; got it
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dret zakim, +1.510.206.aabb is me
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Zakim +dret; got it
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cwebber2 thx tantek
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tantek np
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tantek Zakim, AnnB has Ann
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Zakim sorry, tantek, I do not recognize a party named 'AnnB'
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tantek Zakim, Ann has AnnB
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Zakim +AnnB; got it
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bblfish hi
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bblfish in philosophy conference on the Hermeneutics of the Social Web.
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tantek bblfish, URL?
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AnnB thanks Tantek
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Arnaud zakim, who's on the phone?
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Zakim On the phone I see AdamB, aaronpk, dret, Ann, tantek, WSeltzer, Sandro, cwebber2, Arnaud
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Zakim Ann has AnnB
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AnnB at some future point there might be another "Ann"
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hhalpin waves
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bblfish not sure, but it's part of this series http://digital-studies.org/wp/en/
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tantek is still not quite awake
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rhiaro sorry I can't listen in today, but I'll be watching irc
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Arnaud scribe: dret
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hhalpin Zakim, what's the code?
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Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin
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Arnaud chair: Arnaud
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AnnB splashes a little cold water on Tantek
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Arnaud agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-10
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wseltzer Topic: Admin
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Zakim +[IPcaller]
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Zakim +eprodrom
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Zakim +[IPcaller.a]
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Arnaud PROPOSED: Approval of Minutes of 3 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-03-minutes
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hhalpin IPcaller.a is hhalpin
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elf-pavlik Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim +elf-pavlik; got it
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dret nobody objects the minutes of last week's call: the minutes are approved.
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eprodrom +1
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hhalpin Zakim, IPcaller.a is hhalpin
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Zakim +hhalpin; got it
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Arnaud RESOLVED: Approval of Minutes of 3 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-03-minutes
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hhalpin Zakim, who's on the phone?
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Zakim On the phone I see AdamB, aaronpk, dret, Ann, tantek, WSeltzer, Sandro, cwebber2, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, eprodrom, hhalpin
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Zakim Ann has AnnB
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Zakim +Lloyd_Fassett
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eprodrom Yes
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tantek zakim, mute me
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Zakim tantek should now be muted
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dret arnaud cannot join next week, chairing RDF data shapes meeting. evan will chair instead
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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dret no ACTIONS marked as in review.
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Arnaud https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open
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Arnaud ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret anybody wants to declare victory on an open ACTION?
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elf-pavlik dret you may need to use Arnaud: and then start lines with ...
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tantek action 28
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trackbot doesn't understand that ACTION command.
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hhalpin Note that Jeff is working on Weibo, we'll stay in touch on Yandex
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tantek action 28?
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trackbot doesn't understand that ACTION command.
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elf-pavlik action-28
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RRSAgent sees no action items
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trackbot is looking up action-28.
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trackbot action-28 -- James Snell to Prepare working draft for publication based on http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html on Friday Jan 16, 2105 -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/28
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dret evan is declaring defeat on the russian/chinese social networks connection. anybody can help out with the action?
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hhalpin AnnB - Chaals can help with Russian, W3C China and Japan with Asian networks
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tantek oops mistyped
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dret annb is willing to send a note, evan happily accepts.
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eprodrom http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/32
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elf-pavlik action-32
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trackbot is looking up action-32.
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RRSAgent sees no action items
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trackbot action-32 -- Evan Prodromou to Examine apis for yandex, vkontakte, sina weibo, tencent, and/or renren -- due 2015-01-28 -- OPEN
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/32
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tantek notes action-38 has been completed by eprodrom
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hhalpin Note I did send a note to Chaals (Yandex) and Huawei, no response.
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dret annb wants to better understand if there are non-english tools/services out there that we should learn about. starting by sending out a note to help getting some contacts.
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Patterns
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elf-pavlik harry:
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eprodrom +1
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elf-pavlik action-14
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RRSAgent sees no action items
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trackbot is looking up action-14.
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/14
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trackbot action-14 -- Harry Halpin to Set up json-ld context for namespace -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN
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dret even explains: we're looking for features of APIs that we haven't considered yet. annb willing to help with ACTION-32
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tantek action-38?
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trackbot is looking up action-38.
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trackbot action-38 -- Evan Prodromou to Convert social api requirements to 2-10 user stories of 3-5 sentences each -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/38
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tantek thanks eprodrom!
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AnnB I will ask whomever (weibo, tencent, yandex, etc) I can think of .. could they look at the APIs already described, and see if their products have any other patterns not already described
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elf-pavlik eprodrom++
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Loqi eprodrom has 3 karma
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dret ACTION-38 can be markes as closed.
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eprodrom AnnB: perfect!
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AnnB thanks Evan
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AnnB I'll cc: you on my query
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Arnaud https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/pendingreview
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dret looking at ISSUE now; one ISSUE is marked as pending review.
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Arnaud ISSUE-7
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trackbot is looking up ISSUE-7.
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trackbot ISSUE-7 -- Are AS consumers required to understand the pre-JSON-LD syntax? -- pending review
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/7
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dret ISSUE-7 is marked as "pending review"
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elf-pavlik looks like conversations happened in october
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elf-pavlik dret: we have to be clar what certain things mean when they show up in AS object
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elf-pavlik ... on one side we try to stay friendly to consumers on JSON-LD
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elf-pavlik ... on the other hand we dont want to require JSON-LD processing
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hhalpin Zakim, call harry-US
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Zakim ok, hhalpin; the call is being made
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Zakim +Harry
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elf-pavlik ... what do you do when you encounter something you dont know how to handle (as software application)
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eprodrom Oh that's cool
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cwebber2 whaa
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eprodrom B-)
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hhalpin Zakim, call harry-US
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Zakim ok, hhalpin; the call is being made
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Zakim +Harry.a
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elf-pavlik ... we may neeed to state it more clearly
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elf-pavlik ... explain what AS object means for various consumers
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tantek zakim, who is being noisy?
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Zakim I don't understand your question, tantek.
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hhalpin that may be a Zakim malfunction
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro zakim, drop harry-US
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Zakim sorry, sandro, I do not see a party named 'harry-US'
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sandro zakim, drop harry
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Zakim Harry is being disconnected
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Zakim -Harry
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elf-pavlik dret scribing back to you :)
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tantek there are multiple pre-JSON-LD syntaxes :)
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Zakim -Harry.a
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Zakim +hhalpin.a
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sandro harry, we're reaching your messaging system.
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hhalpin q+
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Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik ... i plan to write longer explaination of issues we face and maybe post it on my blog
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elf-pavlik dret: it may not very well if we want to leave it open
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tantek q+ to say he expects implementation evidence to help determine that
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Zakim sees hhalpin, tantek on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack hhalpin
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Zakim +??P14
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tantek who just joined?
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Tsyesika Zakim, ??P14 is me
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Zakim +Tsyesika; got it
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Tsyesika Zakim, mute me
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Zakim Tsyesika should now be muted
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dret harry quotes the charter saying that we do JSON-LD.
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dret sorry, harry!
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elf-pavlik s/we do JSON-LD/we do JSON and maybe JSON-LD/
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dret harry says the charter says we do JSON, and if possible JSON-LD.
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dret q+
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Zakim sees tantek, dret on the speaker queue
caseorganic joined the channel
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim unmutes tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to say he expects implementation evidence to help determine that
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Zakim sees dret on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik harry: JSON-LD saves namespacing problem in very graceful way
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Zakim +dromasca
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dret tantek points out the wide variety of syntaxes to choose from, including non-JSON. the charter gives us a first stake in the ground. what we must do is expressing the concepts in some syntax.
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Arnaud ack dret
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret tantek says we must first agree on conceps, and then we can decide on the syntax.
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bblfish I wonder where json without json-ld would make sense
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tantek JSON is a good stake in the ground to express the concepts
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cwebber2 if we don't settle on a standard and a wide variety of serializations are possible, will implementations be compatible?
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tantek there is no need for JSON or JSON-LD in practice to build these systems - as many of us have figured out
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tantek and deployed
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elf-pavlik can someone scribe when dret speaks? computer i use today has keyboard in it lang :(
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Loqi it'll be ok
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hhalpin Note that schema.org has a large vocabulary and is a deployment success without requiring the RDF data model.
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tantek hhalpin: same with microformats
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hhalpin So I think it's premature at this point.
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tantek huge deployment - no strict RDF data model was needed
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dret there may be more ISSUEs connected to ISSUE-7, i guess?
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tantek though it is possible to use it in an RDF-like way
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eprodrom +1
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tantek zakim, mute me
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Zakim tantek should now be muted
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tantek Arnaud: let's not review issues unless there is no information
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dret moving on to the glossary part of the agenda
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Zakim -hhalpin.a
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rhiaro namespacing doesn't matter if everyone agrees on one vocab right, like mf2 or schema.org - but as soon as someone wants to coin their own term in a decentralised way (maybe if they want to expand AS2 with a new content type) and describe it, the documentation for that should be some way discoverable, which is why namespacing is useful, JSON-LD or otherwise... as I understand, anyway
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tantek tantek: sounds good. but let's review all issues at the f2f
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tantek Arnaud: yes that is a good idea
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elf-pavlik +1 rhiaro
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AnnB encourages rhiaro to put her comment into the minutes
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cwebber2 right rhiaro
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AnnB IOW, not a "me" statement
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cwebber2 I agree with that summary
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dret elf-pavlik started collecting terms on the wiki.
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tantek encourages the same, even if he disagrees about needing namespaces for that ;)
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rhiaro okay AnnB :)
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rhiaro namespacing doesn't matter if everyone agrees on one vocab right, like mf2 or schema.org - but as soon as someone wants to coin their own term in a decentralised way (maybe if they want to expand AS2 with a new content type) and describe it, the documentation for that should be some way discoverable, which is why namespacing is useful, JSON-LD or otherwise... as I understand, anyway
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AnnB thanks
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rhiaro forgetting nitty gritty debates about whether linked data is any good, it boils down to discoverability of documentation
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dret elf-pavlik is working on http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_Web_Glossary, any help greatly appreciated.
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hhalpin I made my comments in the mailing list
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elf-pavlik hhalpin: i think i added them to wiki page
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tantek rhiaro, I don't think namespaces (like URI bound) are necessary for experimental extension/expansion
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elf-pavlik thanks Arnaud !
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hhalpin yep, I recommend we use terms the rest of the community uses rather than reinvent new ones
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hhalpin Thanks for starting Elf!
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dret nobody volunteering to help with the glossary
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dret next agenda item are the user stories.
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dret last week agreed: develop user stories. evan created a first set of user stories.
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rhiaro tantek, is what people do with experimental microformats is add eg. an x- prefix?
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AnnB seems like a good effort to me, but I'm worried I don't know what "standard" terminology is to contribute
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elf-pavlik q+ re: creating lists of stories where a story can appear on multiple lists
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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tantek rhiaro - or a vendor prefix -vendor-
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sandro "The user stories are intended as the basis for a survey, to help people in the group understand the features others in the group find important or not-so-important. They do not constitute any kind of exhaustive list or agreement about what features are required by API candidates."
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rhiaro but if I see someone's x-newmf I don't know how to find out what that's for, even as a human, unless I maybe read their blog or about page or ask them on irc
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tantek note that such experimentation has been used with some success in CSS
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elf-pavlik tantek, rhiaro can we try to avoid double conversation?
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rhiaro sorry, yes
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rhiaro laters..
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dret goal of the user stories is not to define committed user stories, but more a list of stories people are interested in. they should give input to people putting forward proposals for the Social API.
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Zakim +[IPcaller]
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
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Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (17%)
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elf-pavlik Zakim, mute IPcaller
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Zakim [IPcaller] should now be muted
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bill-looby tantek, ipcaller is bill-looby
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dret evan will explain what he did, and then we can move forward after last week's incident around who edited what when and why and how.
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elf-pavlik Zakim, IPcaller is bill-looby
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Zakim +bill-looby; got it
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dret evan put up a list of 10 user stories based on the requirements document we had.
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elf-pavlik bill-looby you need to use Zakim, unmute me (don't miss , after Zakim!)
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bill-looby oops, meant Zakim !
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bill-looby thanks
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elf-pavlik :)
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dret evan says the stories were trying to make things very direct. after those went up, there was a bit of a scramble how they should be edited.
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dret evan explains that now we put a name to the stories, to make it easier to track their origin. now we have 20-30 user stories. maybe we should take some time to review and edit them.
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tantek also pushes survey out
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tantek but I am ok with 1 week extension
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tantek for user story contributions
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dret evan is concerned that we should keep time in mind as we go through this process.
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Arnaud q?
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik should we write proposal to extend 1 week
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Arnaud ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss creating lists of stories where a story can appear on multiple lists
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek I for one am very impressed by the level of contributions to the user stories
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tantek I have some concerns, but I'll wait to queue to express them
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elf-pavlik PROPOSAL: extend collecting user stories for another week
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eprodrom tantek: agreed!
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dret elf-pavlik is asking whether the call is extended for a week. arnaud says that it is so that we have a little bit more time.
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elf-pavlik +1
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sandro q+
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret nobody objects to extending the user story collection for one more week.
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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dret sandro is wondering how the stories and the survey connect.
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Arnaud ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik q+ re: creating lists of stories (one story can appear on multiple lists)
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AdamB sandro - could your feedback shape the story ?
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tantek q+ to answer sandro questions about survey. +1/0/-1 for/neutral/against a user-story, and if +1, also optionally +intendtoimplement
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik, tantek on the speaker queue
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dret evan says we should wait until the stories are in their final form before we add our feedback to them. they may still change. arnaud says that we should put our names there, but only when we're done changing the stories.
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Arnaud ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss creating lists of stories (one story can appear on multiple lists)
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Lloyd_Fassett q+
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Zakim sees tantek, Lloyd_Fassett on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Social_Profiles
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tantek hey that's clever elf-pavlik
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cwebber2 +1 on reaching out to other free software groups
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dret elf-pavlik wants a story to be allowed to appear in multiple lists, because they may apply to various scenarios.
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim unmutes tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to answer sandro questions about survey. +1/0/-1 for/neutral/against a user-story, and if +1, also optionally +intendtoimplement
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Zakim sees Lloyd_Fassett on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 er
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tantek where's the story about making collections of stories? ;)
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eprodrom q-
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Zakim sees Lloyd_Fassett on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 federation etc projects working in this space
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sandro q+ to suggest -1 must be explained, eg "not important to me because..." vs "would end life on earth".
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Zakim sees Lloyd_Fassett, sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack tantek
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Zakim sees Lloyd_Fassett, sandro on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 I can take on reaching out to those groups
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elf-pavlik tantek: good point! will do it like with https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Voting_on_accepting_User_Stories
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Arnaud ack Lloyd_Fassett
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek zakim, mute me
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Zakim tantek should now be muted
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dret tantek says that before commenting on a story, you should also say whether you intent to implement a story in your system.
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eprodrom cwebber2, elf-pavlik can you do an action for that?
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hhalpin no, you don't vote from a process point of view :)
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elf-pavlik cwebber2: i did on IG tracker!
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cwebber2 eprodrom: sure
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tantek zakim, unmute me
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Zakim tantek should no longer be muted
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees sandro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack sandro
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Zakim sandro, you wanted to suggest -1 must be explained, eg "not important to me because..." vs "would end life on earth".
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: oh, I don't know what that means for me then :)
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dret lloyd is wondering whether IG people are supposed/allowed to vote; arnaud says that you can, but your vote is not binding for the WG. harry says that the process rules says that only WG people are allowed to vote.
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cwebber2 also I don't know how to propose an action, I can look on the wiki
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cwebber2 still a newbie to this process
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dret sandro asks that -1 votes on stories have an explanation.
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elf-pavlik cwebber2: http://www.w3.org/Social/InterestGroup/track/actions/1
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: oh okay :)
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AnnB q+
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Zakim sees AnnB on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: want to reach out to friendica, and I can reach out to diaspora?
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Arnaud ack AnnB
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik cwebber2: let's discuss it here right after this telecon?
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tantek q+ re: when to vote
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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dret annb is wondering if there's value to putting question marks to user stories; arnaud says that yes, we can do that.
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: sounds great
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tantek q+ to also say can use +0 - with question to capture Annb's use-case of a question
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to discuss when to vote and to also say can use +0 - with question to capture Annb's use-case of a question
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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dret arnaud points to how the RDF data shapes WG is doing something similar; it may be a good example to look at (email sent yesterday).
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eprodrom Are we resolved?
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dret tantek says it's important to not add opinions until we officially ask them to do so. please don't add votes now.
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elf-pavlik RESOLVED: extending deadline for collecting user stories for a week
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dret tantek says to annb that a "?" could be a "0" and ask the question as a comment.
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tantek +1 to extending deadline
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AnnB that idea (+0 with question) sounds better than using ??
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elf-pavlik sorry Arnaud
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aaronpk +1 to extending
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bill-looby +1 to extendeing
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eprodrom +1 to extending for a week
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tantek any objections to 1 week extension for collecting user stories?
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AnnB +1
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rhiaro +1
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AdamB +1
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dret arnaud asks officially to extend the deadline by a week; no objection from anybody.
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elf-pavlik s/for a week/by a week/
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eprodrom q+
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Zakim sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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Arnaud ack eprodrom
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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bill-looby q+
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Zakim sees bill-looby on the speaker queue
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bill-looby Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim bill-looby should no longer be muted
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Tsyesika +1 for 1 week extra (no more)
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Arnaud ack bill-looby
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret deadline extnded by 1 week. evan asks to not extend this deadline indefinitely, let's talk about it now instead of maybe extending it again.
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elf-pavlik we can freeze the page next week and start second page for eventual new stories
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tantek zakim, mute me
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Zakim tantek should now be muted
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elf-pavlik q*
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dret bill would like to get some feedback on story categories.
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elf-pavlik q+
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 +1 to extending (late :))
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Arnaud ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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cwebber2 already resolved, but ;)
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dret elf-pavlik wants a flat list of stories and then we can "link" to them from various lists, if we want to.
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tantek please keep the stories short too
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rhiaro +1 sorting stories via links
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Social_Profiles example of collection via links
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dret evan wants to have a flat list as well, if we want to organize, then that should be overlayed and not hardcoded into the list of stories.
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rhiaro (or tags?)
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tantek looks for the user story for contributing a user story ;)
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elf-pavlik rhiaro: can i use URI of section as tag? ;)
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AnnB haha
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eprodrom B-)
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dret arnaud claims victory on the agenda item for user stories.
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rhiaro tagging lower overhead because you don't need to go fetch urls etc, higher because we'd need to agree on consistent tag names...
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dret bill explains IBM connections (and i have a very very hard time understanding what he's saying).
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elf-pavlik bill-looby: can you speak little slower please?
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AnnB sorry, but I'm not clear on what happened w bill-looby's suggestion to have some user stories about integration
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elf-pavlik AnnB: he can add them and then create section with link to group them
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AnnB thanks elf
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elf-pavlik can you scribe now dret ?
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dret connections offers file sharing, wikis, activities for project management, and more things. it has an Atom-based API, it also supports AS.
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Zakim -hhalpin
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elf-pavlik bill-looby: peopole can just post to connections and let it do all the socializing
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AnnB would appreciate if bill-looby could put summary or link later? this would be hard for me to scribe
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dret IBM gets many requests for making integration easier. customers want to take a reference to an object in their system, post it to connections, and then have connections track all of the interactions around that object.
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AnnB but sounds interesting
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dret * annb, thanks for feeling for me!
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elf-pavlik dret just wait for generating minutes to put on wiki ;)
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AnnB bill-looby: most important 'building block' is "person"
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AnnB ... and where their identity is stored
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dret important building blocks are "abstract objects", with the object being stored anywhere, while the metadata is stored/managed somewhere else.
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AnnB .... need to define how to track an object, compared to tracking person
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AnnB ... plus, notion of "place"
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dret (( i am officially giving up for this agenda item. )
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elf-pavlik rhiaro i could do low level sctions which we can use as tags with [[#Social Profiles]]
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AnnB others can help
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tantek has to leave at top of the hour.
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elf-pavlik or [[#Integration]]
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rhiaro elf-pavlik Lists is probably easier now we already have examples of that, tags probably just overcomplication.. I think I'm used to mediawiki syntax enough to make links now :p
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AnnB ... first integration for IBM was content mgmt sys with Connections
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AnnB ... questions about which "side" supports likes, comments, follows .. etc
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elf-pavlik rhiaro those two don't exclude each other
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rhiaro elf-pavlik ...although... might be useful when looking at a flat list to see which lists a story belongs to. So maybe both is helpful
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elf-pavlik more complement
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dret seems like connections mostly needs a robust model of identity and linking.
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rhiaro yes ^
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AnnB ... most requests beyond basic social are integrating between systems
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elf-pavlik let's do it!
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AnnB q+
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Zakim sees AnnB on the speaker queue
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AdamB these are some of the things that we are experiencing within Boeing as well
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Arnaud ack AnnB
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dret arnaud asks bill to create a wiki page with some documentation or just links do existing documentation.
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elf-pavlik bill-looby: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Patterns
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Zakim -tantek
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tantek bye I have to go!
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elf-pavlik ciao tantek
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dret annb points out that this is a classic enterprise scenario and very important in these kinds of settings.
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eprodrom Thanks dret !
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elf-pavlik dret++
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Loqi dret has 1 karma
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eprodrom Thanks Arnaud ! Good meeting.
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dret arnaud officially closes the call!
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AnnB thanks dret!
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Zakim -Lloyd_Fassett
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eprodrom Read the cases!
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elf-pavlik ciao!
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AnnB thanks Arnaud
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Zakim -AdamB
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Zakim -aaronpk
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Zakim -Tsyesika
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Zakim -Sandro
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Zakim -bill-looby
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Zakim -Arnaud
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Zakim -WSeltzer
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Zakim -elf-pavlik
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Zakim -cwebber2
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Zakim -eprodrom
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Zakim -dromasca
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elf-pavlik cwebber2: i'll swich computers and jump back here!
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AnnB rrsagent, generate minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-social-minutes.html AnnB
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dret RRSAgent, generate minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-social-minutes.html dret
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rhiaro cwebber2, Tsyesika: are you UK based?
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Arnaud thanks AnnB
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Arnaud trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been +1.510.206.aaaa, AdamB, aaronpk, WSeltzer, tantek, Sandro, Arnaud, cwebber2, dret, AnnB, eprodrom, elf-pavlik, hhalpin, Lloyd_Fassett,
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Zakim ... Harry, Harry.a, Tsyesika, dromasca, bill-looby
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Zakim -dret
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Zakim -Ann
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Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
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Zakim Attendees were +1.510.206.aaaa, AdamB, aaronpk, WSeltzer, tantek, Sandro, Arnaud, cwebber2, dret, AnnB, eprodrom, elf-pavlik, hhalpin, Lloyd_Fassett, Harry, Harry.a, Tsyesika,
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Zakim ... dromasca, bill-looby
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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cwebber2 rhiaro: Tsyesika is, I am not
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rhiaro I've gotta go, but I'll be back to chat about URIs later...
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elf-pavlik cwebber2, back!
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: hello!
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cwebber2 rhiaro: later
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cwebber2 okay, so
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elf-pavlik i plan to send out email to Friendica and Diaspora develoers
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: ah, maybe that's good enough :)
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elf-pavlik with clear insturction how they can add stories based on what they have already implemented and deployed
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: cool
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: sounds like you probably do have it covered then :)
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elf-pavlik maybe i'll put it on online pad and you'll review / edit it?
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cwebber2 I can do that!
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elf-pavlik great, will ping you once have something there
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elf-pavlik we can should also request on mailing list that people don't rename stories so we don't break # links
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: I am going to take a ~10-15 minute break, but will be back then in case you ahve anything started
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cwebber2 and will be around from then on for the next several hours
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cwebber2 irc will idle though :)
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elf-pavlik cwebber2, great thanks!
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AnnB here's a good overview on basic scribe commands: Scribe 101: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html
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AnnB however, I note that the command "trackbot, end meeting" needs to be added at the very end, in the section "After the call"
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dret anybody knows the minutes publishing process? http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-social-minutes.html is there but https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg seems to expect that minutes are available at https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-10-minutes
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AnnB wseltzer, or some other W3T member, will probly have to add that
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AnnB (I'm referring to my comments about Scribe 101)
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-02-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81215&oldid=80713
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Loqi Ewilde made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81216&oldid=81196
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AnnB dret, hmm .. I don't know .. are we supposed to manually move them to the toher page?
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AnnB s/toher/other/
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dret RTFM, i guess... https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Scribes
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Arnaud yes
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AnnB hehe
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Arnaud :)
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elf-pavlik dret, if you have any issues with minutes please ping me here
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elf-pavlik i also recommend http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
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AnnB Arnaud, when I gave the "generate minutes" command .. rrsagent responded that it made them and gave a link ...
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AnnB .. but when I clicked the link, I didn't have access
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dret thanks, elf, i may take you up on that...
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AnnB ... does some specific person have to generate the minutes for it to happen properly?
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AnnB ... when dret did it, the link worked for me
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elf-pavlik AnnB, works fine http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-social-minutes.html
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elf-pavlik sometimes i do right after starting meeting: rrsagent, make records public
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AnnB yes, elf, they are fine now
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elf-pavlik as in http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
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AnnB I see that
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AnnB but, when I first gave the generate minutes command, at the end of the meeting, the link given didn't work, at least not for me
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Arnaud AnnB: not that I know of
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Arnaud the minutes should get the same ACL as the log
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AnnB aaargh; mysteries
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AnnB you'd think
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Arnaud which is set at the beginning: (9:58:31 AM) trackbot: RRSAgent, make logs public
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Arnaud can you access them now?
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AnnB when one issues initial command "trackbot, start meeting" ... does trackbot then do all the commands such as invite rrsagent, make logs public, etc?
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AnnB (appears that way)
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Arnaud yes
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AnnB yes, Arnaud .. I can get to the minutes now
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Arnaud I guess it helps to get trackbot to ask rrsagent?
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dret does https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-10-minutes look ok? all hail rhiaro for the online thingy!
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Arnaud I really don't know what happened there
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Arnaud dret: it would help if you inserted a few topic: xxx in there
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AnnB appears we're losing some formatting when it moves to the socialwg page
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AnnB easier to parse in the W3C format
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Loqi Ewilde made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-02-10-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81218&oldid=0
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AnnB I guess it's just web vs wiki ...
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81219&oldid=81212
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Loqi Pelf made 4 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81223&oldid=81219
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Loqi Pelf made 3 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81226&oldid=81223
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81227&oldid=81226
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Loqi Aboyet made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81229&oldid=81227
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elf-pavlik !tell tantek voilá: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Creating_new_grouping_of_User_Stories
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi Aboyet made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81231&oldid=81229
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Loqi Pelf made 3 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81236&oldid=81231
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Loqi Pelf made 5 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81241&oldid=81236
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elf-pavlik cwebber2, https://pad.riseup.net/p/w3social-api-user-stories
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: editing
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: not sure about the "server to server api coming soon!" :)
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cwebber2 but I tossed it in there for your consideration
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cwebber2 that's a great email though elf-pavlik
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cwebber2 I made a couple of minor edits
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik_: anyway, looks good now IMO :)
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elf-pavlik_ cwebber2, i use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime so sometimes don't follow gramar for simplicity of just not using any forms of *to be* :)
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik_: heh, wasn't familiar with that!
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elf-pavlik i find it a great practice, to stay honest i still struggle to adopt it in my spoken english
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81243&oldid=81241
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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cwebber2 xb
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cwebber2 oops
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cwebber2 damn buffer switching in emacs/erc :)
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elf-pavlik cwebber2, requests sent! https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Existing_Platforms
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: \o/
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81244&oldid=81243
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AnnB I have question, or suggestion, for one of the user stories ...
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AnnB should I add my question into the wiki?
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AnnB or make a link to a talk page?
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AnnB or ... ??
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AnnB bblfish_, my question has to do with a story you entered ...
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AnnB ... maybe I should just ask you directly?
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bblfish_ ok, I am here
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AnnB oh, cool!
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bblfish_ as it happens :-)
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AnnB just a sec .. I have to find it...
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AnnB on the story titled "Follow a neighbourhood group"...
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AnnB ... in step one, you call out a "Freedom Box"
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AnnB ... it seems to me it would be better if you could put a generic term for that type of box, rather than ref a specific tool
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AnnB ... for one thing, I think it's distracting to link out to a specific tool
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AnnB ... secondly, I'd like to know what the general concept is for that tool
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AnnB ... (I can guess, but I'm not the world's top geek, so I might guess wrong)
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AnnB ... reactions?
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AnnB ---------------------------
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AnnB I also have a question for <whomever>
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AnnB what's the point of putting the "Existing Platforms" section on the User Stories page?
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bblfish_ A a Freedom box is pretty generic. It's just a GPLed OS and the idea is that you should be able to put all your data on it. They don't yet know how to do it.
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bblfish_ there are some great talks on the FB.
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bblfish_ Was there not a URL there?
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bblfish_ By Eben Moglen of the Free Software Foundation
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bblfish_ It's a way to get the interest of free software developers
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AdamB rather then calling out a specific technology or "product" could it be more generic and just say personal server ?
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AnnB yes, bblfish, there is a URL there .. but to me, that's what's distracting
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AnnB personally I find it interesting, and will go read on my own
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bblfish_ ok, I am not against personal server. That's what the freedom box is.
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bblfish_ Perhaps we can say Personal Server ( e.g. Freedom Box )
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bblfish_ ?
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AnnB "personal server" sounds much more generic to me
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AnnB what's the added advantage of calling out Freedom Box?
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bblfish_ yes, fine. But what about just putting "( e.g. Freedom Box ) " right after it
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AnnB similarly why wouldn't you call out some other sort of personal server?
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AnnB sorry to be slow; I just don't understand
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AnnB not trying to be argumentative
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bblfish_ IT's all about the philosophy of the freedom box.
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aaronpk fwiw I was also curious about the mention of the freedom box brand
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AnnB I get that bit, and I'm with you in spirit
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bblfish_ It's about freedom
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AdamB yeah i get that too
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aaronpk just seemed weird to mention what is essentially a trademark rather than a generic term like "personal server"
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bblfish_ transparency of the code
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aaronpk even the wikipedia article for freedom box calls it a "personal web server"
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aaronpk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomBox
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AnnB explain that a bit more to me, Henry
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bblfish_ well its a whole philosophy. What is the point of having a personal server if all the code on it is own by a corporation, and you have no idea what they do with your info there
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AnnB the bit about transparency
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AdamB i was thinking that we'd want the user stories to be vendor agnostic
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AnnB do other personal servers not have transparency?
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AnnB why is that crucial to call out here
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bblfish_ if the source is closed they are not transparent
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aaronpk i fail to see why that is important for the user story
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bblfish_ the Freedom Box does not have a vendor
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AnnB (BTW, I'm all for freedom, transparency, all power to the people .. and etc! :-)
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bblfish_ It's a concept
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aaronpk freedombox is a foundation, so it's essentially the same thing
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aaronpk it's a centralized authority whether or not they believe in similar ideals
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AdamB how is calling out Freedom Box in the Follow a neighbourhood group user story critical to that story?
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AdamB couldn't the neghbourhood group just as easily be running somewhere else ?
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aaronpk yeah, i thought the whole point of the user stories is that the physical location of the server is not important
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bblfish_ As I said make it a personal server if you want.
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bblfish_ the physical location of the server is important in those stories that make it important
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bblfish_ it is only the first set of stories where no physical location is noted that they are not important
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bblfish it is important because we want to show how a distributed social web is going to work
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bblfish user stories are like unit tests
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bblfish they contain specifics that are just there to test the concept
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AnnB does calling out "Freedom Box" indicate a physical location?
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AnnB or, does saying "physical server" lack some info?
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bblfish AnnB: I said I am ok with calling it a physical server
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AnnB thanks
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bblfish I just say you can give an example of a Freedom Box as a physical server
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AnnB but reading the subsequent comments, I had the feeling you think some info might be missing .. such as physical location
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bblfish well I'd like the box to be in your home
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bblfish yes.
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bblfish that's the point of the Freedom Box.
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AnnB I see .. as opposed to rented from someone else?
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bblfish as opposed to being in the cloud
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AnnB aha
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aaronpk re-reading that... it seems there is a word missing "and switches his Social Web Server"
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bblfish I am ok with the cloud too, but it's good to have a home box
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AnnB are those 2 diff user stories? one in cloud and one in home?
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bblfish so I want us to concentrate on a box, that the user owns, and that he can plug into his home
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bblfish if someone wants to make a cloud user story that's fine
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AnnB is the key point that the server is totally under the control / ownership of the user?
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bblfish AnnB: that's exactly it
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bblfish "the server is totally under the control / ownership of the user?"
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bblfish he owns all data, and the point of the FB is that you know you own all of it
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bblfish so then there is no magic, we're calling up a cloud service where all the data is actually stored
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AnnB FB in this case meaning "Freedom Box" ... (as opposed to, my brain jumped already to Facebook ... omgosh)
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AnnB haha
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bblfish :-)
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bblfish AnnB: watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOEMv0S8AcA
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bblfish he's a great orator
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AnnB thanks, I'll be pleased to watch that
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bblfish now the equivalent of a Freedbom Box for a company like Boing is a Sun Rack :-) ( I'd have said that when I was working at Sun )
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AnnB hehe
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bblfish ie a really big machine
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AnnB so, for the first sentence of the "Follow a Neighbourhood Group" story ..
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bblfish the idea is that all the employees would have a profile page, and be able to connect among them and with people from different companies, governments, etc in one click
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aaronpk "Boing" hehe
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AnnB Gerald McBoing Boing
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bblfish :D
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AnnB (Amer children's book .. was it?)
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AnnB anyway .. back to the dang sentence
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AnnB .. is it full and correct to say, "Joe and his family moves into a house and switches his Social Web Server running on a personal server." ... ?
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bblfish yes, though now you have twice the word Server
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AnnB ... oh yeah, good catch
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AnnB actually, that brings up a small nit of English I wondered about, that someone (aaronpk?) mentioned above .. why do you say "switches"
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AnnB ?
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aaronpk i was wondering if it was supposed to be "switches on" or "switches to" or something
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bblfish "plugs in"?
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bblfish "switches on his Personal Server running the Social Web Software"
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bblfish ?
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AnnB bblfish, are you trying to get at any concept of moving from a previous service to this one in his home?
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bblfish he's move from a previous home, plugged in his FB and has the same domain name as he had before
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bblfish so all his contacts and social relations are intact
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aaronpk you should probably stop abbreviating FreedomBox as FB, just saying ;)
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tantek wait what? that's pretty funny
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AnnB I know .. those dang initials
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Loqi tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 2 hours, 38 minutes ago: voilá: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Creating_new_grouping_of_User_Stories
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AnnB although, for me it also implies my father
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tantek I was going to raise an issue about referring to FreedomBox at all
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AnnB anyway ... back to beeswax...
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bblfish it's a habit with gnu folk to "detourner" words
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aaronpk we've been through that tantek
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tantek specifying FreedomBox is too plumbing-specific
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tantek scrolls back
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AnnB detourner?
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bblfish well if you say Freedbom Box you avoid having to describe a lot of other things, which I now have to describe
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AnnB sorry to be such a pain Mr. Bblfish
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bblfish "hijack"
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AnnB I'm a good 'shill" for people who won't understand
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bblfish well then of course the tweet length is more difficult to keep
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AnnB detourner = hijack?
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bblfish yes
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AnnB hmm
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bblfish not quite hijack
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AnnB kidnap?
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bblfish "divert"
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bblfish transform
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bblfish like "gnu" and "new"
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AnnB Changer de direction; .. yes, divert sounds like it
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AnnB oh man, now we've really followed the bunnies
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tantek the point is that "Freedom Box" brings a lot of assumptions that I don't think are relevant to the user story
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AnnB (altho I personally love that language stuff)
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tantek it could be an XBox, or an AppleTV, or whatever
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aaronpk tantek: bblfish was okay with changing it to "personal server"
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bblfish those would not have the same meaning
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AnnB right; we're trying to tease out what the crucial bits are
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AnnB yes, he is
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tantek I agree AnnB that specifying Freedom Box is confusing
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AnnB I just wondered if saying "Personal server" is full and complete
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AnnB we all agree I think
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tantek or "home server" ?
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AnnB hmm
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tantek because it seems like location is the key aspect being implied here
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tantek whereas I have a personal (virtual) server
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tantek but it's not at my house
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aaronpk i like home server
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bblfish 1. You own the box 2. the software is transparent. 3. when you move it sets up the server so that you have the same domain name 4. It should be easy to use and safe
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bblfish 5. you put all your data on the box
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AnnB one point Henry just made that might be important is that, Joe and family just moved .. and when he plugged in his server, he still has all his contacts, social relations, domain, etc
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tantek the "software is transparent" feels out of scope
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AnnB doesn't have to port that stuff from somewhere else
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tantek AnnB - sure, but "home server" handles that
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bblfish mhh, my story does not make enough of the "he moves and keeps all his contacts. " I should add a line for that
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tantek no "normal" user cares about "software is transparent" or even has a clue what it means
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aaronpk agreed that "software is transparent" is out of scope
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AnnB ok, just testing if we've captured the full intent yet
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AnnB maybe bblfish, that'd be good to add as a separate line?
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AnnB jsut to keep the concepts separate?
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bblfish the GNU foundation would disagree wiht you that this is unimportant, and so would the US government
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tantek bblfish: I think you'll have better luck with folks supporting the user-story if you go with a generic user-centric label like "home server" rathern than any brand or any other geeky/academic constraints like "software is transparent"
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AnnB I'm willing to bet we're all on the same page politically
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bblfish ok, was just trying to get tweet lenght lines
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bblfish FB packs a lot
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AnnB just trying to get to ground on these danged sentences in the most generic manner
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tantek FB typically unpacks to Facebook
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AnnB you guys!!!
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bblfish that's just a temporal anomaly tantek
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tantek built and shipped a product called FlashBack in the 1990s thus has prior prior art for "FB" :P
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bblfish ok. Look I am fine with the changes, I'll see if I can add something about keeping the social network to the story when you are done
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bblfish it's past midnight here
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tantek I suggest avoiding use of "FB" unless you want people to think you're referring to the Facebook silo
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AnnB thanks for the discussion, bblfish ..
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bblfish mhh that's a bit of the problem with ISIS and the https://public.isishq.com/public/about/default.aspx
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AnnB (and others too!)
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AnnB lots of acronym collisions!
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bblfish in fance it's a nightmare.
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bblfish France
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AnnB even in Boeing we have to have an acronym dictionary
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AnnB is going for a walk ... freedom from keyboard and screen!