#social 2015-03-17
2015-03-17 UTC
Guest, tantek, bblfish, tilgovi, Arnaud, Guest_, jaywink, elf-pavlik and peacekeeper joined the channel
# 
elf-pavlik good moring #social
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# 
Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82905&oldid=82903
# Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82907&oldid=82905
# elf-pavlik good morning!
# elf-pavlik beautiful sunny day in Berlin, how does it look in Boston?
# elf-pavlik i hope you will have a cozy room for the meeting
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# Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82911&oldid=82907
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82912&oldid=82859
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Hypermedia]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82913&oldid=0
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82914&oldid=82911
# 
ben_thatmustbeme We will have a room that has the most ridiculous layout
# elf-pavlik in what way ridiculous?
# elf-pavlik just joined https://talky.io/socialwg
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# elf-pavlik Just in case someone would like to test https://talky.io/socialwg before the meeting starts :)
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Hypermedia]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82915&oldid=82913
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social syntax]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82916&oldid=82898
# elf-pavlik oshepherd, ping
# elf-pavlik Tsyesika, good morning :)
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social syntax]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82917&oldid=82916
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# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82918&oldid=82914
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# elf-pavlik cwebber2, ahoy o/
# elf-pavlik i hope to have some MediaObject related discussions today...
# elf-pavlik i also just started drafting hypermedia API for adding media hosted on one domain to my online account hosted on another domain
# elf-pavlik moin moin
# elf-pavlik cwebber2, work status: 'thinking aloud' https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L368
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# Loqi Arnaud: tantek left you a message 8 minutes ago: want to chair morning and I can chair afternoon? http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-17/line/1426595808118
# elf-pavlik hi Arnaud, last time https://talky.io/socialwg worked pretty well
# elf-pavlik i just grouped issues and actions in IMO logical clusters
# elf-pavlik Arnaud++
# elf-pavlik folks from Annotation WG already arrived?
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# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-irc
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AdamB joined the channel
# elf-pavlik Zakim ??P8 is me
# elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P8 is me
# elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# 
AdamB scribe: AdamB
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# AdamB Ann Bassetti (AnnB) - from Boeing, also chair social interest group
# elf-pavlik should i hear something on VoIP?
# AdamB Randal Leads - From organization Hypothesis, from the Annotations WG
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# AdamB Benjamin Young - from hypothesis as well
# 
bigbluehat waves
# AdamB FJH - from annotations group
# elf-pavlik will reconnect (no one else on a call to test it...)
# AdamB ??? - from media goblin, implementing federation
# AdamB Chris Webber - from media goblin
# AdamB Matt Lee - creative commons, from gnu social projects
# AdamB Amy - phd student from ???
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# AdamB Arnaud - chair of social wg, part of the IBM Open Standards group
# tilgovi <-- Randall Leeds (Hypothesis)
# AdamB Ben Roberts - from indie web group
# AdamB tilgovi thanks
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# ben_thatmust_ made it!
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# elf-pavlik no sound from voip.w3.org :(
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-minutes.html fjh
# AdamB Arnaud: looking at the list we are still missing some people
# AdamB Zakim, who is on the phone?
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# elf-pavlik i keep reconnecting but Zakim bridge doesn't talk
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-minutes.html fjh
# elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P8 is me
# elf-pavlik no sound at all, also no welcome message asking to dial code after connecting via SIP
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# elf-pavlik i could still enter the room 7025#
# elf-pavlik yes :)
# elf-pavlik sandro, did voice work for you?
# Loqi Mlee14 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82919&oldid=82918
# AdamB we are working on technical difficulties in the room
# elf-pavlik maybe we can just try https://talky.io/socialwg ?
# elf-pavlik mattl++
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# AdamB Arnaud: talking about the agenda ...setup a straw man to get us started ... can get started with AS this morning
# AdamB ... tomorrow at the end left it open so we can fill it in with what we think would be good to do
# AdamB ... people have been adding to the agenda which is good
# AdamB ... there are no way we can address all the items that has been added to AS in the time allocated today
# AdamB ... we can discuss which ones are more important to talk about than others, maybe things that are more ready to discuss and can take advantage of the f2f meeting
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# ben_thatmustbeme has access to his remote system
# elf-pavlik cool! can hear now something :)
# AdamB tantek: probably want james for the AS conversation
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# AdamB Arnaud: AS seems it is potentially our first victory
# AdamB ... so in terms of w3c process, we have AS is a spec that has been published for a while and we need to focus on getting it to CR
# AdamB .. for the others its not as clear
# AdamB ... we need to take advantage of meeting to get far as possible
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# AdamB ... the ceo has been putting more pressure on the working groups delivering on time
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# AdamB ... so as chairs we are responsible for keeping the working group on track so when time starts slipping by we need to consider cutting features down
# elf-pavlik bblfish can you mute please?
# AdamB ... just like any other software shipping
# ben_thatmustbeme we need a mute feature on talky
# AdamB ... so we need to keep this in mind so we can do what we can to ship
# AdamB ... it may not be what we want but it's still good
# AdamB ... we need to seriously think about that. so i would really like we have a clear understanding of what is left to AS to ship it
# AdamB ... would be good do then do that for the social api as well
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# Loqi harry: tantek left you a message on 3/15 at 10:42am: I've updated the agenda with explicit items to discuss proposed items, chair/staff topics, and clustered all other items as proposed to make their status mor7B��ear. Please review: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17 http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-15/line/1426441329803
# AdamB ... we've been through a lot of work on it e.g. the user stories ... so we need to start narrowing down the things to work to get to a path that will get us somewhere
# AdamB ... have to bite the bullet and do something
# elf-pavlik bblfish you can still dial zakim
# AdamB ... again, seems like AS is the lowest hanging fruit and if we can demonstrate some success will help with w3c management
# AdamB tantaek: want to underscore what Arnaud said, especially shipping and cutting feature
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82920&oldid=82919
# AdamB s/tantaek/tantek/
# AdamB ... we've tried to get things done but we've failed to make any date so far
# AdamB ... we need to ship something in order to keep our schedule that was committed too
# AdamB ... while we are trying to get AS to CR we should try to propose as minimal steps as possible to get social api and federation out the door
# AnnBassetti q+
# AdamB fjh: i think what you are saying makes sense
# AdamB ... i'm assuming you could cycle vocabularies pretty quickly
# AnnBassetti loves the loqi feature that tells people stuff
# AdamB ... annotation as an action
# elf-pavlik I understood, we can update Vocabulary much easier than change Core
# AdamB tantek: there are active impl of AS
# AdamB .... some are previous version of is, not clear how quickly they may move to the next version
# AdamB ... at exiting CR things have to be marked as implemented
# elf-pavlik bblfish, please mute
# AdamB ... we haven't labeled anything out of scope yet
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# AdamB Harry: i would hold out to CR phase which would make some people really happy, but to me the goal of the wg is to maximize the conferment impl
# eprodrom q+
# AdamB ... so i would say don't worry about testing right now
# AdamB ... we could always re-edit and the w3c process is changing to simplify things
# AdamB ... it is changing so you can go back and edit things
# AdamB AnnBassetti: in terms of choosing things to happen, is the intention to vote early and often
# AdamB ... to establish an early set of things to do ?
# 
harry See the great work done here for how we are simplifying W3C process: https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/
# AdamB tantek: that is one method we can chose to get things out the door, and i am in favor of doing that
# AdamB AnnBassetti: yeah thats what i'm asking, is that what the group would like to do?
# AdamB tantek: harry you mentioned rushing to CR. there is a diff between entering CR and exiting CR. we can enter whenever we want and that is when we think the spec is detail enough
# AnnBassetti my fear is, if we try to do it all, at the beginning, we'll never get there
# AdamB ... exiting CR is different, where we as a group have more flexibility where we will have to make more judgement calls for the group
# AdamB ... we can give it more CR time for tests etc
# AnnBassetti seems like it's better to commit to some initial stuff, get it done, then quickly jump on the next set
# AdamB ... the risk of rushing it through we might have to drop features in order to get to exit
# AdamB ... i'm in favor of an aggressive CR schedule
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# AdamB eprodom: my question is somewhat about the process, in terms of data serialization what are we looking for? parsers?
# AdamB ... are there meaning test that we do or is it we say you can do this with a json-ld parser, ok then done
# AdamB sandro: think we base it off the community
# AdamB tantek: there is some experience in w3c in this. references xml history
# elf-pavlik XHTML 1.1 ?
# AdamB .... there are lot of xml parsers out there so obvious these are compliant but turned out that wasn't true
# AdamB ... we should not play that approach in this group. just because its based on an underlying technology doesn't mean it's compliant to the spec
# AdamB ... implementors get to a point and say, well how do i know that i'm compliant to section 2.4.6 ?
# AdamB ... needs to be a test to prove it out
# AdamB eprodom: so would a way for us to satisfy this, the testing and implementation concepts, is a way for us to move forward this is n many documents and these are valid and these ones are not and your implemetnation can parse them and figure that out?
# AdamB ... mock AS documents to drive the test?
# AdamB sandro: probably need more, may not be enough
# AdamB tantek: if you can't figure out a test to figure out the results of two different features then you must not need them both
# elf-pavlik q+ re: we need more AS2.0 examples and we could use them in our tests
# harry People may want to look at this in terms of helping 'hand checking' if there is browser output that it can detect: http://www.seleniumhq.org/
# AdamB Arnaud: guess we can say we have started the conversation about AS
# harry Also, look at our testing initiative: http://testthewebforward.org/
# AdamB Arnaud: first evan, we have to figure that out, there are no hard and fast rules in the w3c
# AdamB ... the w3c has moved to having test suite etc
# AdamB ... one thing that is not up to us is the criteria to actually enter CR. there used to be a last call step which happened when all your issues have been closed.
# AdamB ... we are telling the world we think we are done
# AdamB ... then had to go through the disposition of the comments from the public, then after that you could go to CR.
# AdamB ... the w3c has gotten rid of the last call step
# AdamB ... we just did this with the LDP group
# AdamB ... have to show the "director" yes we reached out to the world and published a spec that was stable and we've properly responded to comments
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# AdamB ... its good to have a test suite which is kind of expected now and typically have a link to the test suite from the draft so that people can find it easily
# AdamB ... doesn't have to be final so that people can see it and "stuff"
# AdamB ... and have some frameworks that can collect the results of the test
# AdamB ... we can raise the bar and ask the full implementation if we wanted
# eprodrom q+
# AdamB ... we need to meet all of that so for the exit we can go to w3c and have this proof
# AnnB waves at bblfish and elf
# AdamB ... in the w3c process there is a feature called 'feature at risk'
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# AnnB waves at jasnell
# AdamB ... we can mark some that way and if we are not meeting them we can simply remove them and procede
# elf-pavlik hi AnnB jasnell :)
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# AdamB ... if we don't do that we have to go back and republish a spec in CR again
# AdamB ... anything that changes conformance you have to republish
# AdamB ... it is a great way to provide some safety valves in the spec
# AdamB Henry:
# AdamB henry: thank for that review, it was a good one.
# AdamB ... on the implementations I think we need to make sure we have the archticture right so it can grow as the space grows
# elf-pavlik hears Henry via mic -> speaker -> mic ->headphones :D
# AdamB ... at that point want to start with really basic thing because if we do it right can later do more complicated things
# AdamB elf: for testing i think we need come up with examples
# AdamB ... and also use test to verify that the examples show usage of the spec
# eprodrom +1
# AdamB ... to verify the expected functionality
# AdamB eprodrom: agrees and there are some great examples in the stories
# AdamB ... maybe something along, here is an example and show me the actor in that example
# AdamB ... but we do have a large set of examples to start with but not a lot of counter examples
# AdamB fjh: thinking about what tantek said, i'm wondering what the implications of that
# elf-pavlik should we make ACTION to write 'counter examples' ?
# AdamB ... so under object have all of these properties
# AdamB ... assuming other apps will come up with new types of things you can anticipate everything
# AdamB tantek: fundamental point is that if there is a feature in the spec then we as a group believe that implementors must implement it
# AdamB ... unless it is marked optional
# AdamB ... if so we are obligated to provide a test
# AdamB fjh: let me be concrete in a diff way, say for example the post action, do you need a full blog platform to do that
# AdamB tantek: so it depends on what the spec says
# eprodrom q+
# AdamB fjh: so for annotations we'd have to be very careful
# AdamB tantek: if you can't verify the feature you are not done with the spec
# AdamB Arnaud: we have to be careful when it comes to vocabulary
# elf-pavlik issue-16
# AdamB eprodrom: i think writing blog software is too far us initially
# AdamB .... my point of view somethign that could generate streams based on inputs
# AdamB ... if you know X generated some content at this time and you generated that based on the AS 2.0 spec. that seems like enough and shoudl test the data serialization etc without worrying about other things like stuff required for blogging softtware
# AdamB .. which is not important for us
# AdamB tantek: this is why i mentioned everything should be marked at risk by default
# AdamB ... if we don't mark feature as at risk we are expecting implementors to implement. but if we actually did that don't think it would be looked on as favorable
# AdamB ... if you want something to be required and not at risk it is your burden of proof for that
# AdamB ... but that is the challenge that should be required then ship it
# AdamB tantek: the sooner we have a test suite framework and the sooner people can start submitting tests
# elf-pavlik issue-8
# AdamB ... and issues are good candidate for tests
# AdamB ... and can tell you from his experience that when WGs don't do that it holds things up
# AdamB ... so i really encourage that we do start on the test suite
# AdamB tantek: the test needs to prove the test but the expected result as well
# AdamB bblfish: this is really interesting stuff, test suites don't test everything
# AdamB ... i propose we use issue-19 would be able to use this system to communicate within this group without using email
# elf-pavlik #selfdogfood :D
# AdamB eprodom: is that one of our goals for this WG that AS should be used to replace email?
# AdamB bblfish: i was just going little bit further
# elf-pavlik action-45
# AdamB cwebber: very first part of this conversation was about AS test, what would those test look like
# AdamB ... AS don't really do anything until we start doing something with them ... like in the social api
# wseltzer rrsagent, pointer?
# AdamB ... what would the test be, is it just like changing an in memory db?
# eprodrom q+
# AdamB arnaud: would like to prompt james to answer that
# AdamB harry: there are diff ways to test functionality .. some of teh tradiditional test suites in the w3c may not apply but there are things like selinium etc
# AdamB ... practical step might be to have a place to put tests
# elf-pavlik q+ re: issue-12 Action Types Structure and Processing Model
# AnnB s/student from ???/student from Univ Edinburgh/
# 
tantek Evan, from this spec? http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html
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# elf-pavlik Arnaud++
# AdamB_ jasnell: up to this point the format has always been about describing the event and not specififying what you should do with it
# AdamB_ ... even back in AS 1.0
# elf-pavlik issue-12
# AdamB_ ... i know this is a point that erik has raised a number of times
# AnnB s/specififying /specifying/
# AdamB_ ... in order for us to have meaning test, or even a like activity, we are going to have to define what you are to do with it
# AdamB_ ... in order for us to take that additional step with that
# eprodrom q+
# eprodrom This is what the API should do
# AdamB_ ... but do we want to assign actual behaviors to those then we probably need to simplify
# eprodrom "When a user posts a LikeAction, the object goes into their 'liked things' collection, and the user goes into the collection of 'people who like this' for the object"
# AdamB_ tantek: james i think you identified some pretty core issues that i think we need to record, which is every key action in AS needs to provide ????
# AdamB_ ... second issue is there is a lot in the spec and it's not clear we have implementor interest in doing something with everything in the spec so we need to gather that in some way
# AdamB_ .. is that a reasonable characteristic of the two concerns?
# AdamB_ james: yes
# elf-pavlik associated action-48 with issue-8 and AS2.0 product in a tracker
# AdamB_ jasnell: i documented uses case but we have no real data on actual usages of them
# AdamB_ ISSUE: need to get data on implementor interest on specific features of the AS spec
# 
trackbot Created ISSUE-22 - Need to get data on implementor interest on specific features of the as spec. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/22/edit>.
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# bigbluehat q+
# AdamB_ tantek: are the readers processing the information as we would expect
# AdamB_ ... if we need to put more language in the spec then lets do that
# bigbluehat q-
# AdamB_ cwebber and tantek discussing question about testing
# elf-pavlik q?
# AdamB_ cwebber: i'm not clear on what it means in the processing model
# AdamB_ ... what is it checking for
# AdamB_ tantek: it is good to start with a use case
# AdamB_ ... the spec needs to say if you consume one of "these" then you need to do "this"
# bigbluehat stares blankly ;)
# AdamB_ eprodom: the tough part of of AS 2.0 is there are 2 usages, one use is the logging format
# AdamB_ ... the other use is as a command language. where evan wants to tell his system 'evan posts a note'
# AdamB_ ... those are 2 different things
# AdamB_ tantek: it is great to specify both of those in the spec
# AdamB_ tantek: if you look at other specs like html, they have different classes of user agents
# AnnB we could hear your dog or something, bblfish
# AnnB :-)
# AdamB_ cwebber: didn't realize until eprodrom mentioned the logging vs the command of AS
# AdamB_ tantek: could be argued there is a little mini api in the AS spec
# AdamB_ ... here is how it works as a command api
# AdamB_ .. the social api goes far beyond the command language
# AdamB_ ... maybe the social api has a crud
# AdamB_ tantek: the key is to document the multiple possibilities .. we don't leave it open ended
# eprodrom q-
# AdamB_ sandro: re: how do we test this without having that. the answer is we don't care about that, we are agnostic about that
# AdamB_ .... you can scaffold it together how ever you want
# eprodrom q+
# AdamB_ elf-pavlik: would like to note issue-12
# elf-pavlik issue-12
# elf-pavlik issue-4
# AdamB_ ... would also like to bring up querying the data
# AdamB_ ... to query for AS data
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# AdamB_ eprodom: i would propose that for AS 2.0 we only test it in it's logging capacity. in understanding as what has already happened
# AdamB_ ... it might make some of the problem easier to test. can defer to the social api testing for the semantics of using AS as a command language or just leave it out entirely
# AdamB_ ... seems to me that the process of testing as command language is too much to bite off
# AdamB_ ... guessing low 100s for test cases. take the examples, parse out the properties etc
# AdamB_ tantek: it also makes it easy for the spec
# AdamB_ Arnaud: lets try to close the topic for now. we have plenty of other things to cover
# AdamB_ ... the question is, who is going to take the lead on getting some sort of framework for getting test suite setup etc
# AdamB_ ... how do we make progress on this
# AdamB_ ... we need volunteers
# AdamB_ tantek: is anybody producing an AS accordance to the spec
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# AdamB_ jasnell: they have one customer that is doing this but can't provide a public URL
# AdamB_ tantek: is anybody doing this on the web
# elf-pavlik tantek++
# AdamB_ tantek: even seeing an example on the web
# AdamB_ ... would be a great start
# eprodrom http://testanything.org/
# AdamB_ ... so before we jump ahead to 'how do we create a test framework' i say we get 1 example of the AS 2.0 spec
# AdamB_ jasnell: it parses the activity stream from github, its rudimentary
# elf-pavlik ACTION: pelf to Publish AS2.0 data on one's own website
# elf-pavlik o/
# AdamB_ Arnaud: let me ask who is actually planning to implement AS?
# AdamB_ ... so a lot of people are going to do it, so how are you guys going to test it ?
# 
fjh jasnell what does http://asgh.mybluemix.net/ lead to, is it a web page?
# elf-pavlik q+ re: publishing my data using schema.org or AS2.0 dilema
# AnnB hopes AdamB will clarify what he's done with AS & how it
# AdamB bblfish: if you are publishing AS 2 and there is no client that is reading it out there, it would be extremely useful to have translators for previous versions
# AnnB & how it's gone
# AdamB elf-pavlik: i just wanted to mention that i started to publishing my information on my website and using AS
# eprodrom q+
# AdamB eprodom: i will volunteer to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those exmaples
# eprodrom testanything.org
# AdamB ... probably use testanything to do so
# elf-pavlik harry, e.g. http://online-presence.net/ontology.php
# AdamB ... so could task js vs ruby library to test
# elf-pavlik harry++ microformat-> AS2 convereter
# AdamB aaronpk: was going to say back on the how do we test, problem i'm having with microformats ... until machines start consuming i don't know if it's corret
# AdamB s/corret/correct/
# AdamB .. now that there are readers its been very helpful to have people looking at machine readable markup
# ben_thatmustbeme I wonder if a better question is then who is consuming AS2?
# AdamB tantek: i think the experience aaronpk is important. there is a huge difference in UI vs reader etc
# AdamB ... very different level of testing for finding flaws in specs etc
# ben_thatmustbeme i mean currently consuming
# AdamB ... would caution that just verifying looking at the output will be enough. it is a good first step
# AdamB ... but just not enough. based on experience with microformats
# trackbot Error finding 'eprodom'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
# Loqi Jsnell made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17/VocabularyChecklist]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82922&oldid=0
# AdamB ... all these other issues come up
# AdamB bblfish: history of rss is 15 years old, there is really important part of formats to support previous versions
# AdamB ... where backward compatibility is an important part of the work
# AdamB ISSUE: look at backward compatibility for AS 2.0
# trackbot Created ISSUE-23 - Look at backward compatibility for as 2.0. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/23/edit>.
# elf-pavlik AdamB++
# eprodrom eprodrom
# elf-pavlik jasnell_ can you mute on talky.io ?
# AdamB fjh: when will we talk about json-ld
# elf-pavlik issue-21
# elf-pavlik fjh++
# AdamB Arnaud: there are bunch of issues open, bunch of new issues that we need to look at what to do with
# elf-pavlik i *clustered* ISSUEs and ACTIONs on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#Day_1_-_Tuesday_17_March_2015
# AdamB ... we have limited amount of time so we should discuss prioritizing what we should be talking about
# AdamB ... discussing the agenda and what to do next
# wseltzer [20 min break]
# elf-pavlik tantek, please try not to change nesting in items i proposed!
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82923&oldid=82920
# elf-pavlik tantek, looks good! since we discussed testing in depth i removed copy of it from proposed list
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82924&oldid=82923
# Loqi Jsnell made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17/VocabularyChecklist]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82925&oldid=82922
# elf-pavlik rhiaro, you could aks AnnB about changing IG telecon times ...
# AnnB I see that note, elf-pavlik and rhiaro
# AnnB sounds like the IG time is not good for you?
# AnnB scribe: AnnB
# AnnB not sure that got recorded correctly
# wseltzer scribenick: AnnB
# AnnB hopes everyone will help fill in the scribing ..
# tilgovi \o/
# AnnB Agenda Bashing commences ...
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# elf-pavlik someone makes noise on talky.io
# AnnB elf's link is the static one; tantek's link is the "live" one
# elf-pavlik maybe worth looking at
# elf-pavlik issue-15
# 
jasnell_ Considering the test suite: One possible approach forward... Define test cases as Stories. Each Story is about a series of Events that have occurred. An implementation ought to have a limited number of ways of encoding that information as output. The output ought to be able to be fed into a test tool. The tester then asks a specific set of questions against each input for the test. For example: Story: "James posted a blog post at 1:23pm pacifi
# jasnell_ c. Arnaud liked the blog post and shared it with Tantek". The types of questions the test tool can ask include, "Who posted a blog post?" "Who liked it?" "Who was it shared with?". If the tool is able to extract the correct answer given the input, then the input can be considered to pass the test. To test consumption, an implementation would be expected to transcribe specific inputs into either HTML or Turtle in such a way that the test tool w
# AnnB W3C team at MIT has lunch together every Tuesday ... and invited us to join them ... we need to get there @noon
# elf-pavlik +1 ISSUE-21
# AnnB fjh = Frederick Hirsch
# AnnB fjh: wants to understand json-ld topics, relationship to Annotations WG work
# AnnB Arnaud to Tantek: there are ++ on agenda list; we only have time for ~1-2 topics
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# elf-pavlik topic?
# AdamB kind of ;)
# elf-pavlik maybe some group hummming ? ;)
# wseltzer Topic: Microformats
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# elf-pavlik bblfish, action-26
# wseltzer -> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/83 Github Issue 83
# elf-pavlik it should have all needed info
# AnnB tantek: I've captured the changes that need to be made in spec, re: Github issue 83
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# AnnB pull request 84
# AnnB trying to focus on key items to fix
# wseltzer AnnB, I'll find the links
# AnnB patterns of changes are the interesting bit
# AnnB thanks Wendy
# elf-pavlik q+ re: mapping *vocabularies* mf <-> AS2.0 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping
# AnnB tantek: in our publishing to date, we're using URLs not URNs
# AnnB ... for authors
# AnnB ... I propose we use URLs, because that's the common practice
# elf-pavlik PR please :) "Use URLs not URNs as examples"
# AnnB waves at jeff
# tantek Instead of urn:example:person:martin we should use http://martin.example.org/ because that reflects current social web publishing and identity practices, e.g. indie sites and sites like Tumblr
# AdamB +1 on urls intead of urns
# 
Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss mapping *vocabularies* mf <-> AS2.0 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping
# AnnB Arnaud: I suggest we accept this proposal .. but let's have discussion
# AnnB ... reminder, we're talking about best practices
# AnnB we can't hear you elf
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82926&oldid=82924
# AnnB danged audio!
# elf-pavlik I see 2 *distinct* topics 1) microformats html serialization
# elf-pavlik action-34
# elf-pavlik 2) microformats *vocabulary* (which one could use with JSON-LD) https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping
# elf-pavlik 3) formal mapping microformats vocabulary to as2.0 vocabulary e.g. owl:equivalentProperty owl:equivalentClass
# AnnB bblfish: in ontology .. doesn't matter if it's URL or URN
# AnnB scribing baby ... waaa
# elf-pavlik action-43
# AnnB bblfish: recommends FOAF to identify "person" in various ways
# AnnB ... already ~10 years of history w FOAF ontology
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# AnnB ... I'm against pattern of specifically how the URL should look
# 
cwebber2 I am fine with having http://username.foo.example/ in the spec, but explicitly us making the call of deprecating http://foo.example/user/username/, I am -1 on
# harry After deep analysis on this issue, I determined it didn't matter: http://www.ibiblio.org/hhalpin/homepage/publications/indefenseofambiguity.html
# AnnB evan: clarifies this is only for the examples on AS2.0 document
# AnnB bblfish: still suggests distinguish between XXX and YYY
# wseltzer does anyone object to the example changing?
# AnnB hopes bblfish will fill in the gaps
# AnnB Sandro: trying to help explain bblfish's point
# AnnB ... long history in SemWeb community
# AnnB .... this is called HTTP range 14
# 
Arnaud PROPOSED: change examples to have URLs a la http://username.foo.example/ instead of URNs
# AnnB ... I'm personally OK with this example .. but there is a long history with this, and there are people who will complain
# bigbluehat q+
# AnnB tantek reminds this he's only suggesting this for a specific example
# wseltzer doesn't see TimBL in the room
# bigbluehat q-
# bigbluehat let's harry go first ;)
# jeff Wendy, were you asking that we invite him?
# elf-pavlik I use /foo -- HTTP 303 --> /foo/
# wseltzer was suggesting we not invoke him, though we have invited him
# AnnB bigbluehat = Benjamin Young
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# elf-pavlik can we maybe keep httpRange-14 for tomorrow? (dessert)
# bigbluehat q+
# AnnB Bigbluehat: switching from URN to URL actually accommodates the HTTP Range 14 issue
# Arnaud PROPOSED: change examples to have URLs a la http://username.foo.example/ instead of URNs
# wseltzer +1
# elf-pavlik +1
# AdamB +1 on proposal
# bigbluehat +1
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# bigbluehat s/+1//
# bigbluehat isn't really here
# Arnaud PROPOSED: change examples to have URLs a la http://username.foo.example/#me instead of URNs
# AnnB Arnaud -- we're trying to figure out what we can live with
# elf-pavlik back on talky \o/
# AnnB ,... as chair
# ben_thatmustbeme -1 those are not used anywhere
# AnnB bblfish: question is, what do these URLs refer to?
# eprodrom -1
# bigbluehat fjh next to you :) just not in this WG...so shouldn't be voting... imo ;)
# bigbluehat fjh: ;)
# Arnaud RESOLVED: change examples to have URLs a la http://username.foo.example/ instead of URNs
# elf-pavlik Arnaud++
# AnnB bblfish tries to clarify more about Semantic Web / RDF stuff
# AnnB Arnaud reins the discussion back in
# tantek replacing all use of urn:example:person:martin with http://martin.example.org/
# AnnB tantek responds to bblfish that this is documented in Issue 83
# AnnB Sandro: to clarify, none of this goes against RDF .. this will all work.... I can explain that later with bblfish, if that'd help
# elf-pavlik how about using microformats *vocab* with JSON-LD ?
# elf-pavlik i'll check my mic...
# elf-pavlik bblfish, please have mercy on us
# tilgovi Is there any problem with using a URL structure that pleases harry et al more?
# AnnB bblfish: points out that part of confusion is stuff that aren't standards
# tilgovi It seems to me like this room doesn't particularly care, just that we'd prefer not a URN
# AnnB harry: the issue of non-standards is being looked at by W3C management
# AnnB tantek: we need to restrain the discussion to the topics on the agenda
# AnnB thanks jasnell
# AnnB tantek: there are examples inside links and metatags
# elf-pavlik q+ re: microformat HTML serialization (less important) vs. microformats *vocabulary* (more relevant)
# wseltzer bblfish, I'm sorry that you're not able to be in the room, but we're trying to proceed on the agenda the group chose
# AnnB ... instead of using link tag, use "a HREF"
# elf-pavlik do we need to go into microformats html best practices now?
# AnnB .. instead of metatag use best option
# AnnB ... if you see a metatag it's probably a mistake, and I've offered alternatives
# wseltzer bblfish: that's not how the chairs are running the meeting
# wseltzer they're not taking "blocking" procedures
# elf-pavlik van we focus on *vocabulary* microformats?
# elf-pavlik and possibly use it in JSON-LD
# bigbluehat related: RDFa Primer examples recommend <link /> within divs, etc: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-primer/#patterns
# wseltzer elf, we can't hear you
# bigbluehat q?
# elf-pavlik action-34
# elf-pavlik fjh I guess: Pull Request
# AnnB harry: everyone has their favorites syntax .. for the spec, I suggest the foundation should be JSON-LD, with the other syntaxes in "communities"
# AnnB Sandro: you can already see that in the tabs
# bigbluehat might be good to consider Drupal's RDFa implementation and their use (or not use) of <link> and/or <meta> https://groups.drupal.org/node/22716
# AnnB tantek: I'm concerned about that, to make the meanings consistent
# elf-pavlik vocab not serialization
# AnnB sandro: will we have machine translatability between these formats?
# AnnB tantek: I think that's why jasnell did all that hard work
# AnnB jasnell = James Snell, IBM
# bigbluehat q+
# wseltzer 's battery is dying
# AnnB tantek: microformats are the concrete example I can use to move this forward
# AnnB ... I'm concerned about
# AnnB ... about "drift" if we did what Harry proposed
# bigbluehat waves
# AnnB Harry: given that these communities are all active, I can agree