#social 2015-03-18
2015-03-18 UTC
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Arnaud1 trackbot, end meeting
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-minutes.html trackbot
# RRSAgent I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-actions.rdf :
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82960&oldid=82956
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# Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82962&oldid=82960
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# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82965&oldid=82962
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# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Hypermedia]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82966&oldid=82915
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elf-pavlik bblfish, moin
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# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82969&oldid=82965
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# Loqi Alehors made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82971&oldid=82969
# Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82972&oldid=82971
# elf-pavlik good morning, could someone check with me talky ~10min before we start?
# elf-pavlik cwebber2, Tsyesika did you have chance to take a look at
# elf-pavlik action-42
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# elf-pavlik I just added problem definition to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82973&oldid=82744
# wseltzer waves from up-river for the morning
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# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82975&oldid=82973
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# elf-pavlik joining http://talky.io/socialweb
# elf-pavlik sandro, can we try really fast https://meet.jitsi.org/socialweb instead of talky?
# elf-pavlik my connection looks ok but getting pretty bad audio/video on talky http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4223150928
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# 
ben_thatmustbeme were up to 10 people. at what point do we call it a quarum?
# elf-pavlik speed to Boston also looks fine http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4223157136
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cwebber2 http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac/ is the keyboard I mentioned I use
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# RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-irc
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# elf-pavlik bblfish can you hear me?
# AdamB don't think we've dialed in yet
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# elf-pavlik i can hear bblfish
# elf-pavlik maybe laptop speaker muted?
# elf-pavlik i can also hear room pretty well
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# elf-pavlik room looks and sounds good!
# elf-pavlik no, that audio worked well!
# elf-pavlik please unmute it back :D
# elf-pavlik bblfish i can hear you... will try to dial in Zakim for voice
# elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P13 is me
# elf-pavlik sandro i think mic in other laptop worked much better!
# elf-pavlik we could hear it loud and clear before
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# elf-pavlik bblfish do you think audio worked much better on other laptop?
# elf-pavlik one with camere pointing on sandro
# 
bigbluehat scribenick
# bigbluehat scribenick bigbluehat
# bigbluehat thanks
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# elf-pavlik sandro any chance we can switch audio back to the other laptop?
# bigbluehat harry: will the interest group be able to help us understand add them to our API requirements
# bigbluehat s/them/the IG user stories/
# elf-pavlik and now mute the other ?
# elf-pavlik can you mute one pointing at harry ?
# elf-pavlik PERFECT!
# elf-pavlik bblfish sound on talky back hi quality
# bigbluehat AnnB: I think what I'm hearing is that your asking the IG to clarify their user stories
# bigbluehat there's a larger group that have several +1's
# bigbluehat there are many with minor objections
# bigbluehat AnnB: there are 19 or so about which there is consensus
# bigbluehat AnnB: the IG can work on clarifying the ones about which there is some debate
# bigbluehat ben_thatmustbeme: starting with just the top 7 is too limited
# bigbluehat sandro: the idea is that the IG will take the lead in clarifying the user stories?
# bigbluehat AnnB: the IG will need to involve the WG members in the clarification process
# bigbluehat AnnB: get the people who care about it, clarify it, "sandro thinks this" "randall thinks that" and then document it
# bigbluehat harry: if it's a very clearly defined task, it will get more involvement from the WG
# bigbluehat s/WG/IG
# bigbluehat harry: and once that's complete, it should be clearer what how the WG can proceed with testing
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# bigbluehat bblfish can't hear you
# elf-pavlik AnnB, let's set date next week for Use Case TF call?
# elf-pavlik why mute?
# bigbluehat still can't hear you bblfish can you post here?
# ben_thatmustbeme bblfish are you on zakim or trying to use talky
# elf-pavlik bblfish mute on talky ?
# elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
# bigbluehat AnnB: the group started collecting user scenarios
# bigbluehat ...everyone was supposed to transfer them to a common template
# bigbluehat ...a lot of content never got transered
# ben_thatmustbeme s/transered/transfered/
# bigbluehat ...which started the WG working on "tweet form" use cases
# bigbluehat ...there is a task force looking at architecture
# bigbluehat ...and something else?
# bigbluehat ...there was an earlier workshop that included a block diagram
# bigbluehat harry: it was an advisory board task force
# bigbluehat ...we do have a diagram that could be the basis of an architecture description
# bigbluehat ...there will be a lot of vocabularies
# bigbluehat ...that will have small but important user communities
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# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat ...that should still be supported by the vocabulary task force work
# bigbluehat ...asparagus farmers market use case
# bigbluehat eprodrom: is the social IG tasked with looking at other parts of the social world that the W3C should be looking to charter WGs for
# bigbluehat AnnB: the IG is looking into that
# bigbluehat harry: that may be being addressed more in the future
# AnnB Social Web "block" architecture: https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/5/5c/Social_diagram_v4a_May_7_2012.pdf
# bigbluehat eprodrom: I would be concerned that the IG would spend time back filling what the WG has already done
# bigbluehat AnnB: I agree
# bigbluehat eprodrom: looking at parts of the diagram, and filling in what's missing would be best
# bigbluehat AnnB: of the 90 use cases, many of them mentioned missing or unclear information
# bigbluehat ...someone mentioned that we could pull those out and work through those concerns
# bigbluehat ...which would be helpful
# bigbluehat tantek: a lot of the feedback was that some of them were duplicates
# bigbluehat AnnB: goal is to get through the 50 or so about which there were questions
# bigbluehat tantek: I'd like to see definitions that include statements of what's in use today to accomplish things
# elf-pavlik simple diagram on how IG could coordinate various CGs working on *domain specific* vocabulary requirements http://awesomescreenshot.com/0cc4noy4da
# bigbluehat tantek: ideally with links to the tools that are being used to accomplish those things today
# bigbluehat tantek: if we can solve other edge cases, even better...but let's start with what's being done today
# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat Arnaud: the people who proposed the stories should have the burden of documenting them in that way
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# bigbluehat sandro: AnnB asked what would be helpful for the IG to do
# bigbluehat ...what I think would be really really helpful would be to get other people interested and helping
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# bigbluehat AnnB: I don't think there are many
# bigbluehat ...not that have their own internally crafted technology
# bigbluehat or sharepoint, or yammer, or jive, or IBM connections
# bigbluehat harry: thoughtworks mentioned that they also build internal social networks for enterprise
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82976&oldid=82972
# bigbluehat AnnB: we've tried IBM connections. it'd be interesting to know what other enterprises use IBM connections, etc.
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# bigbluehat sandro: does this IG need W3C invited access?
# bigbluehat harry: yes.
# bigbluehat AnnB: I'd love it if there were more big companies represented in the IG
# bigbluehat sandro: let's do a lot more outreach
# bigbluehat eprodrom: the user stories that we have from the IG are specific to the API. there are many more user stories addressing in the social space
# bigbluehat ...there are not yet federation user stories for example
# bigbluehat ...there are a lot more stories needed in this space
# bigbluehat ...the asparagus one came up...it's interesting...but that's not one we thought we could handle in this version of the API...or that we wanted to really attack
# elf-pavlik we also don't have stories for *querying* social data
# bigbluehat bblfish: there's always going to be one part that's completely new...we want something that works across silos
# bigbluehat ...this is why you won't find a lot of systems doing this...because they're always thinking internally
# bigbluehat ...it's really very uninteresting
# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat ...you have to be about the size of an enterprise before it becomes interesting
# bigbluehat eprodrom: are you serious? there's a lot of these...yammer, etc.
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# bigbluehat ...it doesn't make since to say we're only building this for distributed social networks
# bigbluehat bblfish: there are a lot of faux social networks
# bigbluehat ...that the data gets split around
# bigbluehat ...in issue-19...
# bigbluehat ...there is an organization that works with a lot of other organizations
# bigbluehat ...they're a lightweight company that uses 60 different tools that are not interoperable with the data fragmented about the place
# bigbluehat ...the point is that if we only look at what exists, we're only going to duplicate the problem
# bigbluehat ...the pain the social networking people are feeling
# bigbluehat ...they're going to have to heal the fragmentation these people are feeling
# bigbluehat ...we need to allow these things to tie these things together
# bigbluehat ...tantek was saying I want these stories to be about things that exist
# bigbluehat ...if we do that, we only solve problems we know about
# eprodrom I'm going to take a walk for a minute
# elf-pavlik +1
# bigbluehat harry: when we were chartering this working group the main reason was the open social crud
# bigbluehat ...we do think it's important to have common interfaces
# bigbluehat ...the reason why we separated this...while a lot of the distributed stories that include authentication, etc. actually get very difficult
# bigbluehat ...pubsubhubbub and others have proven that they're harder problems to solve
# bigbluehat ...the social wg may not be able to solve these problems in one go
# bigbluehat ...happy to have the IG look at these other areas
# bigbluehat ...and have the WG focus on the current ones
# bigbluehat AnnB: to be clear, I support exploring these, but not sure I have the technical skills to lead that
# AnnB q+
# bigbluehat tantek: I wanted to +1 eprodrom's statement that there are many other social networks in usage in many places
# bigbluehat ...if you don't think something exist, ask
# AnnB q-
# bigbluehat ...if you really don't think something exists, rather than claiming something exists...there are experts here in many other fields...does anyone (of them) know about X, Y, or Z?
# bigbluehat ...we don't actually have proof of non-existence
# bigbluehat ...bblfish claimed that there is no social network software that doesn't work across silos
# AnnB q+
# bigbluehat ...that's false, the indieweb work does work across sites and communicates with the silos
# bigbluehat ...pretty much all of these implementations support POSSE to federate to the silos
# bigbluehat ...or use backfeed...taking the interactions on the silos, bringing them back into the local sites
# bigbluehat s/local/personal
# elf-pavlik can you mute the second laptop? first one had the best sound
# bigbluehat ...those are all provable and inspectable
# elf-pavlik this one also sounds good
# elf-pavlik maybe even better :)
# elf-pavlik aaronpk++ sandro++
# bigbluehat AnnB: obviously my experience is in a huge company
# bigbluehat ...I'm curious how many people are involved in the indieweb...how big of a community that is
# bigbluehat tantek: you can measure by the IRC participation...or the number of peopled editing the wiki
# bigbluehat ...or deploying on their own sites
# bigbluehat ...known or wordpress+ indieweb plugins
# bigbluehat ...or more custom things
# bigbluehat ...number in the thousands
# bigbluehat ...it's part of why we're working to keep things as simple as possible
# bigbluehat ...to get thousands of deployments
# elf-pavlik http://ouishare.net/en/communities very established in Paris
# bigbluehat AnnB: what are some of the other things going on in Europe, mid-sized companies, etc?
# bigbluehat tantek: there's a lot of these groups not represented
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro++
# AdamB 3 minutes / topic?
# bigbluehat AnnB: like all of China
# bigbluehat tantek: there are lots of diaspora users in europe
# bigbluehat harry: there are lots of European projects funded by groups within the EU
# bigbluehat ...all expect for their future government efforts they want better social specifications
# bigbluehat ...they're not coders
# bigbluehat ...we do have a lot of European governments that are members
# bigbluehat AnnB: why aren't they involved?
# bigbluehat harry: I tell them we don't have code yet...and the timing is bad for them
# eprodrom q-
# bigbluehat ...I have invited some of them as invited experts
# elf-pavlik +1 change the time
# bigbluehat AnnB: well let's change the time
# AdamB zakim++ on keeping us on task !
# bigbluehat harry: point is that another group growing in size is governments local and otherwise
# AnnB q+
# bigbluehat ...there are more people watching than it appears
# bigbluehat bblfish: some of these groups are not build software they're tying them together
# 
harry W3C funding for this project is not from membership dues but from European Commission, http://dcentproject.eu/
# bigbluehat ...what we want to remove are silos completely
# bigbluehat ...one social web
# bigbluehat ...there's know center
# bigbluehat ...players of all size can communicate without any henderance
# AdamB bblfish++ for being succinct :)
# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat AnnB: in our dreams we would get rid of silos...but it's a good goal
# bigbluehat ...harry was saying there were lots of players interested in these activities
# elf-pavlik AnnB++ meeting in Paris :)
# bigbluehat ...perhaps we should have a meeting in Paris...would they come to a meeting?
# bigbluehat ...if have of this team is going to be a meeting, maybe have a WG or IG meeting with them there
# elf-pavlik i can invite friends from Edgeryders https://edgeryders.eu/en/blog/shaping-the-future-of-digital-social-innovation-in-europe-what
# bigbluehat harry: it is difficult to get people involved there...but we could get someone there
# bigbluehat AnnB: tantek are you there?
# bigbluehat tantek: I'm there...but pretty booked
# bigbluehat AnnB: I think it'd be a good time to engage people
# bigbluehat Arnaud: we'll talk about the meeting next
# bigbluehat ...we started this discussion to discuss user stories
# bigbluehat ...we mentioned that there are ones with some issues
# bigbluehat ...and getting the stake holders together to clarify them
# elf-pavlik harry, can you publish a wishlist with what your *really* need to get to that meeting? (travel tickets, accomodation, etc.)
# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat tantek: I agree with bblfish that we should not be dependant on silos
# elf-pavlik harry someone could donate tickets *in-kind*
# bigbluehat ...on the indieweb we use webmention to communicate with each other...rather than depending on silos
# bigbluehat ...I don't think it's reasonable to try and get rid of silos
# bigbluehat ...it makes us look laughable to propose that
# bigbluehat ...if you want to get rid of silos, try and eliminate your use of silos...by whatever means you can
# elf-pavlik harry++
# ben_thatmustbeme bblfish, take a look at webmention, thats basically how everything is done for federation
# bigbluehat eprodrom: we're here at the W3C...looking at the list of members...including twitter, google, facebook
# bigbluehat ...they're not looking for us to destroy their businesses
# bigbluehat ...they're not involved here...which is fine
# AdamB what is the goal of this topic? are there more valuable things we can be talking about? just asking :)
# bigbluehat ...we do have a social data standard that we're laying out
# bigbluehat ...companies can and should use
# bigbluehat ...we're working on an API that companies can and should use to communicate together
# bigbluehat ...and a federation protocol that they could also us
# bigbluehat ...what I'm unhappy about is assuming a singular community...and ignoring the other tasks to serve a specific community
# bigbluehat ...we do have a task to standardize social data
# AnnB sorry to say, harry is correct, melvster
# bigbluehat ...two: to standardize social APIs
# bigbluehat ...three: if we can manage to get a federation protocol started
# bigbluehat ...if we start with changing everything...it won't happen
# bigbluehat ...if we start with smaller things, then we'll get farther
# bigbluehat ...I don't want to undercut that
# bigbluehat harry: W3C has done outreach to Twitter, facebook, and Google
# bigbluehat ...and some with Microsoft because of Yammer
# bigbluehat ...Google was against open social
# bigbluehat ...facebook has nothing to do with this group...they don't want this work at the W3C
# bigbluehat ...twitter is interested, but they don't have an open standards advocate
# bigbluehat ...they're continuing to watch as it evolves
# bigbluehat ...companies have resourcing issues and don't have cycles to dedicate to standards
# bigbluehat bblfish: I completely agree one has to build something that can grow
# bigbluehat ...we should acomodate growth in use cases
# bigbluehat ...the linked data cloud should be taken into account
# danbri1 wanders past, lurks a bit
# AnnB bblfish, you should join the IG
# bigbluehat ...that's another crowd of people that would be interested in our work
# AnnB hey! danbri1
# AnnB waving
# bigbluehat Arnaud: let's move on
# bigbluehat ...let's try and settle some dates and locations for the next meeting
# bigbluehat ...the logical next meeting would be 3 months from now
# bigbluehat ...we got an invitation to participate in TPAC
# elf-pavlik topic?
# bigbluehat ...for scheduling purposes we should figure that out sooner than later
# AdamB TOPIC: Meetings
# AdamB i would suggest to do take advantage of tpac
# bigbluehat tantek: I propose we do meet at TPAC
# bigbluehat Arnaud: many of us are going to be at these meetings anyway
# bigbluehat ...there was discussion on the mailing list
# bigbluehat ...there is an AC meeting in Paris
# AnnB I'm observing, bblfish, a new feature of Zakim ... once someone is ack'd.. Zakim starts a timer
# bigbluehat ...TPAC is in Japan in October
# AnnB it was doing that for me, too
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/Candidates]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82977&oldid=82950
# elf-pavlik I can only do Europe, till we get strong Online Identity in place and broadly recognized :)
# bigbluehat tantek: I want to see if we can get +1's for TPAC
# AdamB +1
# AnnB +1
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro, i wish i could, but i would not be able to afford that
# elf-pavlik +0 can't go anyways
# bigbluehat TPAC is the last week of October...include Halloween in Japan
# bigbluehat s/include/including
# bigbluehat AnnB: if you don't know TPAC is a cross-group meeting
# bigbluehat Arnaud: there are WG meeting M-T, W is reserved for technical plenary
# bigbluehat ...run as an un-conference even
# bigbluehat ...on various topics
# bigbluehat ...because there are many groups meeting, it's prone to cross polination
# AnnB s/a cross-group meeting/when most WGs hold their F2F meetings, to enable cross-fertilization/
# bigbluehat ...last year we had a meeting with the Annotation WG
# bigbluehat ...I totally agree that it's a very valuable event
# elf-pavlik AnnB not sure if meeting in Paris around AC Meeting didn't get any support?
# bigbluehat harry: I think that's consensus on meeting at TPAC
# bigbluehat ...I want to revisit the Paris thing
# bigbluehat ...there will be a Future of the Web conference in Durham NC
# AnnB you know what, bblfish ... it's the same as going to Europe right now
# bigbluehat ...if folks want to meet there
# AnnB close at st
# bigbluehat ...being organized by shepazu
# bigbluehat ...it's not an official W3C meeting
# AnnB at least
# elf-pavlik +1 Paris
# AnnB +1 Paris
# bigbluehat harry: what are the dates for the Future of the Web thing?
# bigbluehat Arnaud: for Paris, do we have a preference of day?
# bigbluehat tnx harry
# bigbluehat tantek: puts in a note to avoid conflicts with CSS
# bigbluehat ...asking the AB not to meet at TPAC
# bigbluehat likely got that wrong
# AnnB Advisory Board
# bigbluehat s/AB/Advisory Board/
# bigbluehat tnx Arnaud
# AnnB me/ (or AnnBassetti or ArtBarstow ;-)
# bigbluehat tnx AnnB rather... :)
# bigbluehat Arnaud: the AC meeting will be W-Th
# bigbluehat Arnaud: one possibility is M-T
# bigbluehat AnnB: several participants are going to IWC in Germany
# bigbluehat harry: I think rather than doing an official face-to-face, we could just do an outreach
# bigbluehat AnnB: I think we should make time to bring a meeting to Europe
# bigbluehat harry: I would support a meeting in Europe...even if it's a just a single day
# bigbluehat Arnaud: with a one day meeting, then folks from the US won't come
# bigbluehat ...I'm interested for now to schedule a F2F
# bigbluehat AnnB: I propose a May 4th and 5th Paris F2F (a M&T)
# elf-pavlik +1
# elf-pavlik +1
# bigbluehat AnnB: elf-pavlik and bblfish have been on the phone for 2 days solid
# AnnB +1
# elf-pavlik we can help couchsurf in Paris!!!
# ben_thatmustbeme 0 i won't be able to be there in person
# ben_thatmustbeme has twins due about that time
# AdamB how many chairs need to be present for that ?
# bigbluehat bblfish: it happens to be at an interesting point of time
# elf-pavlik bblfish, no more dealines for demos!
# AnnB you will be busy Ben!
# elf-pavlik just no discussions *unless* demo
# bigbluehat ...that would be the time of the demos
# bigbluehat eprodrom: plan was to have demos in the next 4 weeks for ones that exist
# eprodrom +0
# bigbluehat bblfish: when were the implementations needed to be ready by?
# bigbluehat ...that would be a good time to demo
# AnnB -1 Edinburgh (I would not be able to get travel approval)
# bigbluehat tantek: we gave up on that. we have 3 candidates. new candidates need to show up with implementations that match user stories
# elf-pavlik -1 Edinburgh
# eprodrom q+
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# bigbluehat rhiaro: the conflicting month in Edinburgh is August
# eprodrom -1 for planning a meeting until we know what we're planning for
# bigbluehat ...starts the 7th of August
# elf-pavlik bblfish, yesterday's resolution http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-17/line/1426626196991
# AnnB yo, dret ... we're voting on the possibility of a WG meeting in Europe ...
# bigbluehat Arnaud: 23rd-24th of July in Edinburgh
# elf-pavlik looks like Paris had few more +1 ?
# bigbluehat harry: I'd be surprised if we can't get a room with the University of Edinburgh
# bigbluehat bblfish: there will be too many henry's around
# bigbluehat rhiaro: elf-pavlik can't come to the UK
# AnnB either: tangent to W3C meeting in Paris May 4-5 OR with IndieWebCamp Edinburgh 7/25-26
# bigbluehat ...so that's still a problem
# eprodrom q+
# ben_thatmustbeme I cannot hear half the things people are saying honestly
# ben_thatmustbeme and I'm in the room
# bigbluehat Arnaud: if we're not doing this thing in Paris, I would vote to do a 3 day meeting next time
# eprodrom harry: agreed, but I'd like to have a goal
# bigbluehat ...these f2f's are very valuable...at least 2.5 days would be good
# bigbluehat ...and help folks travel back
# eprodrom Like "federation protocol ready for editorial"
# bigbluehat bblfish: the sun doesn't set in Edinburgh in July...so we could do 3 full days in 2 days time
# elf-pavlik we could try to arrange stay and working space for everyone very near Paris - http://openchateau.org/
# bigbluehat eprodrom: it's important for us to meet. I would like us to have a particular goal for that meeting
# bigbluehat ...harry mentioned having a FPWD ready
# bigbluehat ...federation protocol draft
# bigbluehat ...it'd be helpful to know what subject we'd be meeting about
# bigbluehat ...May 4th & 5th is 6 weeks from now
# bigbluehat tantek: July is a better mid-point between now and TPAC
# AnnB -1 July ( would not be able to get travel approval)
# bigbluehat Arnaud cwebber2 is on the queue
# elf-pavlik -0 can't go there untill we sort out solid Digital Identity system :S
# bigbluehat Arnaud and it's not scheduling related
# bigbluehat Arnaud: it's good that we've agreed on Japan in October
# bigbluehat ...but we should determine some dates for the inbetween meeting
# bigbluehat tantek: I'm OK if we don't do an in between meeting
# eprodrom +1
# 
sandro My french isn't great. Is http://openchateau.org/ viable for July 22-24?
# bigbluehat Arnaud: I'm wondering if we should extend the phone calls by 30 minutes
# bigbluehat ...I've done that with other groups and it's been helpful
# bigbluehat ...it makes time for all the admin stuff we have to do at the beginning
# bigbluehat tantek: I think most of the calls have completed on time
# bigbluehat Arnaud: we respect the limit we have
# elf-pavlik we could look at securing all the place to stay and meet + food in Paris to reduce expense for participants
# AdamB q+
# bigbluehat ...it doesn't mean we couldn't use more time
# bigbluehat tantek: I'm not sure most of those issues are worth synchronous time
# bigbluehat sandro: what's the alternative to synchronous time?
# bigbluehat tantek: issues in tracker or IRC
# bigbluehat sandro: or email?
# bigbluehat Arnaud: tracker is just there to say there is an issue
# bigbluehat ...not to communicate over the issue
# elf-pavlik +1 github issues!
# bigbluehat sandro: we could use github issues
# bigbluehat cwebber2: it does seem that we get to some of the topics at the end
# bigbluehat ...maybe 15 minutes?
# bigbluehat ...15 minutes more on the call
# bigbluehat bblfish: I'm happy with an hour and 30 minutes
# bigbluehat ...it does bring up the where are we discussing things discussion
# bigbluehat ...it's not clear where things can be discussed
# bigbluehat harry: recently everything has a tracker and or a GitHub issue tracker
# bigbluehat ...I'm happy with an extra 15 minutes
# bigbluehat ...but not 30
# elf-pavlik PROPOSAL: we use github repo for each *product* hosted in single organization e.g. https://github.com/w3c-social
# AdamB i agree with the underlying theme of what Arnaud stated, it seems like the topics that are holding up making forward progress tend to happen at the end of the meeting. i understand the lack of desire to be on a 90 minute meeting. what about trying out an extra 15 minutes for a few weeks and then see how it is working?
# bigbluehat ...concerning too many channels, every WG I know uses wiki, tracker, somtimes github
# bigbluehat ...people seem to do fine
# bigbluehat s/somtimes/sometimes/
# bigbluehat Arnaud: let's forget the meeting length extension for now
# 
trackbot Error finding 'Email'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
# bigbluehat ...it's 10:45...I think we should break
# trackbot Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, I don't blame you.'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
# bigbluehat cwebber2: my topic may not be good before a short break
# bigbluehat ...it's not clear what's happening after this other than discussing API or federation
# bigbluehat ...my main question may or may not be trying to address an elephant in the room
# bigbluehat ...it seems to me that some of the directions over the last couple days
# bigbluehat ...is "don't discuss the technical direction; talk about the user stories"
# bigbluehat ...at the end of yesterday I began to get very worried that we don't have an undertanding
# bigbluehat ...there's a rift that AS is a way overly technical direction
# bigbluehat ...and I'm concerned about the rift
# bigbluehat ...we explicitly don't have technical user stories
# bigbluehat ...and I'm concerned that's going to be insufficient
# bigbluehat ...and that we're not addressing the rift
# bigbluehat ...and that bringing this up is lobbing a grenade into the middle of the room
# bigbluehat ...and that half the group is going to stand up a flip a table in response
# bigbluehat ...I don't know what the solution is
# bigbluehat ...and we haven't talked about it at all
# elf-pavlik cwebber2++
# bigbluehat ...at the end of yesterday it sounded like the indieweb folks were not for implementing AS2.0
# bigbluehat ...I hope we don't have a decision between this and the next meeting...where half of the group says this is completely against my technical direction...and I'm not going to implement it
# elf-pavlik ciao fjh
# bigbluehat Arnaud: we're discuss this after the break
# bigbluehat ...we do need to discuss general direction
# bigbluehat ...we also have API and federation on the agenda
# AdamB wishes james was online to participate in this conversation
# bigbluehat sandro: Andre came willing to do some LDP demos
# bigbluehat tantek: another thing we asked people to do was cut short the federation conversation in the demos
# bigbluehat ...maybe we should allow that to kick of the federation conversation
# bigbluehat Arnaud: it's set. let's have a break. then we can go back to trying to convince each other
# bigbluehat AnnB: what about people who are not meeting right now?
# bigbluehat ...the people not here are likely the people who would meet in Paris
# eprodrom I would rather do Paris than Edinburgh
# bigbluehat harry: If there's not a strong objection from tantek I'm fine with folks meeting in Paris
# eprodrom May > July for me
# bigbluehat AnnB: I think there are others in Europe who aren't able to vote because they're not currently here
# bigbluehat eprodrom: I'd rather not meet in the summer, and just meet at TPAC
# bigbluehat rhiaro: why don't we do a doodle.com for May and July?
# eprodrom +1 Doodle poll
# bigbluehat ...and give people a few days to respond
# bigbluehat harry: as long as we agree by next meeting
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro, its a bit hard to hear you from this side of the room
# bigbluehat Arnaud: let's have a break for 10 minutes
# elf-pavlik We could do it together with some of the next http://semdev.org events in Europe
# eprodrom ACTION eprodrom to make doodle poll for f2f between now and TPAC
# elf-pavlik AFAIK sandro and jasnell (and of course bblfish) have the best overview on that
# elf-pavlik IMO bblfish may have certain bias here ...
# eprodrom http://doodle.com/8fa27m9ryx6d26rb
# elf-pavlik yesterday we already got hot exchange about /#me thing
# elf-pavlik tantek, IndieAuth at this moment looks like pretty insecure since it doesn't require HTTPS or at least people don't use it...
# elf-pavlik also fkooman brought couple of issues with state parameter etc.
# elf-pavlik i know it can, just at least from fkooman's feedback most people don't use it or if they do have insecure https config on their servers
# elf-pavlik i hope he'll write post about it soon
# elf-pavlik i very much like approach IndieAuth takes, just it may need more in depth security review
# elf-pavlik melvster, we talk about client-server HTTPS or server-server HTTPS ?
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# elf-pavlik client-server without HTTPS puts people using wireless hot-spots etc. under great risk for anything requiring authentication
# elf-pavlik server-server HTTPS different story but still I find benefits to use it there as well
# elf-pavlik just different degree of staying exposed to MitM attacks
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# bigbluehat do I need to scribenick again?
# bigbluehat Arnaud: we should agree on what we want to use the time for.
# bigbluehat ...lunch is coming to us today
# bigbluehat ...we have the afternoon up until about 5:30
# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat ...we need to talk about federation
# bigbluehat ...we should at least touch on the subject
# bigbluehat ...we have at least 1 demo
# bigbluehat Andrei says 5
# bigbluehat tantek: are they related to user stories
# bigbluehat s/Andrei/deiu
# elf-pavlik hi deiu
# bigbluehat waves back
# bigbluehat eprodrom: I'd like to do federation, demos of LDP, and social API criteria?
# bigbluehat Arnaud: before the end of the day...split between them in some way
# elf-pavlik deiu, maybe later you would have some tips on how LDP deals with 'MediaObjects' https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
# bigbluehat eprodrom: can we address federation protocol strategy for the next hour?
# bigbluehat Arnaud: that's reasonable
# bigbluehat eprodrom: sounds good
# bigbluehat ...the way that our charter has been layed out is that we'd be taking a staged approach
# bigbluehat ...syntax
# bigbluehat ...api
# bigbluehat ...federation protocol
# bigbluehat ..."if we manage to make it work...it may only be a note" -- referencing the charter
# bigbluehat ...it's important for us to delivery something, but we do have some waivering out on the fed protocol
# elf-pavlik or API *could* solve federation as well...
# bigbluehat ...we've talked before about syntax informing API which would in turn inform the federation protocol
# bigbluehat ...if we continue with that strategy, then I think the next steps are to work on the API
# bigbluehat ...and let that inform federation
# bigbluehat ...if we have 3 candidates, we should at least sketch out how federation would look on each of those protocols
# bigbluehat ...because the selection of the API will flow into the federation choices
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82983&oldid=82976
# bigbluehat ...I'd like to see how things might work with pump.io
# bigbluehat ...I'd assume WebMention for micropub
# bigbluehat ...and what if any system might exist for an LDP strategy
# bigbluehat ....this is coming up at 11:20, and I don't think they need to be held to a high standard because of time...but I think it's a good place to start
# bigbluehat sandro: I'm trying to determine the distinction between the API and the federation protocol
# bigbluehat ...is it about relationship of the user to the service providing the API?
# bigbluehat eprodrom: I think when we talk about federation it's about security bounderies
# bigbluehat ...I can't log in to aaronpk's site
# bigbluehat ...but I can publish to my own site
# bigbluehat ...and I can send a notification to aaronpk or Boeing
# bigbluehat ...and they can choose to do something with it
# bigbluehat ...it then in turn chooses to pluck a feed in a pull fashion
# bigbluehat tnx aaronpk
# elf-pavlik my-frontend<->my-backend<->other-backend<->my-frontend vs. my-frontend<->my-backend || other-backend <->other-backend
# bigbluehat ...I think of the API as a client to server protocol and federation as a server-to-server protocol
# bigbluehat ...I believe micropub and webmention are client-to-server then server-to-server
# bigbluehat sandro: LDP has explored both. deiu demo will hopefully cover some of that
# bigbluehat eprodrom: there's nothing in LDP that precludes it syndicating it out elsewhere, correct?
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# bigbluehat Arnaud: correct.
# bigbluehat eprodrom: if I publish to my site, and then having that be syndicated out to other peoples inboxes is entirely possible, right?
# bigbluehat Arnaud: right.
# bigbluehat q?
# bigbluehat tantek: sandro asked about the distinction between API and federation
# bigbluehat ...some of it can be architectural
# bigbluehat ...in the indieweb community it emerged
# bigbluehat ...from what was being built
# bigbluehat ...the federation protocols ended up being really really simple
# bigbluehat ...webmention is a simplified version of pingback
# bigbluehat ...there are other APIs that also need auth
# AnnB Andrei Sambra = deiu
# AnnB on W3C staff
# bigbluehat Arnaud: do you agree with eprodrom definition of API and federation?
# bigbluehat tantek: I'm not sure about that.
# bigbluehat ...some of the demos that you saw yesterday was server-to-server
# bigbluehat ...servers talking to servers
# bigbluehat eprodrom: yes. they are web servers talking to web servers
# elf-pavlik webmention also works my-frontend <-> other-backend e.g. input on https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/03/17/4/w3c
# bigbluehat tantek: server as user agent
# bigbluehat aaronpk: I don't think client-server vs. server-server is a good definition
# bigbluehat sandro: I think it's about trust boundries
# bigbluehat AnnB: in our case, when suppliers begin adding social features to their tools
# elf-pavlik both server and client can send web mention to my understanding
# bigbluehat ...then we'd like to federate that into our social tools
# bigbluehat ...we don't have control over too much
# bigbluehat sandro: you don't clearly have ownership over everything, but you want it to cross bounderies
# elf-pavlik just as both clent and servers can use LDP
# bigbluehat tantek: that's a great point. we have this same problem in the indieweb
# bigbluehat ...one is to silos, and one is peer-to-peer
# bigbluehat ...with the silos its a bunch of "snow flake" APIs
# bigbluehat tilgovi: are you trying to make a distinction that they're all different? or are they user-to-user vs. user-to-server?
# bigbluehat tantek: we have both.
# bigbluehat ...we have POSSE
# bigbluehat ...and we have on that pulls from the silos
# bigbluehat aaronpk: the term is related to every silo thinking their service is special
# bigbluehat tilgovi: the answer is that every API is different, then.
# AdamB POSSE - http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
# elf-pavlik webmention ~= pingback
# bigbluehat tantek: with peer-to-peer API there is one API: WebMention (and sometimes the Vouch extension of that)
# AdamB webmention - http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
# bigbluehat ...and in the other case, we use POSSE
# Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82985&oldid=82983
# AdamB vouch - http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
# bigbluehat eprodrom: in networking terms, we'd call that using a bridge
# bigbluehat tantek: right. we're bridging to support federation
# bigbluehat ...we put perma shortlinks into the body of the copy to follow your nose back to the original
# bigbluehat ...when using POSSE
# bigbluehat eprodrom: looking at broader federation systems...
# bigbluehat ...in email, the user connects to their server using POP, IMAP, Exchange, etc.
# bigbluehat ...servers talk to each other using SMTP
# bigbluehat ...there is that separation between the two
# bigbluehat ...XMPP actually names them c2s and s2s
# bigbluehat ...they separate, but very similar protocols
# bigbluehat bblfish: in the standards there's a snow flake federation that is probably un-standardizable
# bigbluehat ...so we can't really look at that
# bigbluehat ...a number of the other protocols are server-to-server
# bigbluehat ...can that not just be done using the LDP API?
# bigbluehat ...can that person not just add a statement that they want to be pinged at a certain URI?
# bigbluehat ...there is a super set of HTTP that's going to be completely identical between the client and the server API
# bigbluehat ...what would be interesting is to have the common piece move up the stack
# bigbluehat ...so there's very little distinction
# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat cwebber2: the distinction is a little less valuable in the "pump-a-verse"
# bigbluehat ...there's someone who's built a twitter-to-pump thing
# bigbluehat ...and it got shutdown
# bigbluehat ...you can just build bots that do those thing
# bigbluehat ...they're not that interesting...as they get shut down all the time.
# bigbluehat ...it doesn't seem relevant to dealing to the silos
# AnnB q+
# bigbluehat ...federation is about dealing with the peers
# eprodrom q-
# eprodrom q+
# eprodrom q?
# bigbluehat AnnB: in certain situations it is true it's not about working together
# bigbluehat ...but we have so much to tie together, that federation is valuable
# bigbluehat ...internally we are trying to federate between silos
# bigbluehat ...I'm just saying there are co-operative silos
# bigbluehat cwebber2: the main interest in dealing with silos is that users are stuck in it
# bigbluehat ...and it's hard to get out of it
# bigbluehat ...or get your friends out of it
# bigbluehat ...I'd love to be behind federation to silos, but it seems you can deal with it without adding it to the federation discussion
# eprodrom bblfish: I agree, good idea there
# ben_thatmustbeme second on cwebbers point that we don't need to discuss federation to silos
# bigbluehat ...in part because you'll likely get shut down
# bigbluehat tantek: if you're abusive or throttled, you'll get shutdown
# bigbluehat ...let's just ask who's been shutdown
# bigbluehat eprodrom: but you don't provide other people access to a separate client to twitter
# bigbluehat tantek: lots of reasons twitter shuts things down
# bigbluehat eprodrom: that might be one of them
# bigbluehat tantek: we have bridgey that does this
# bigbluehat ...assuming you copied your content to twitter
# elf-pavlik +1 don't get to much into discussion about bridging to silos ...
# bigbluehat ...originally it just supported backfeed
# wseltzer did I hear legal? +1 to out-of-scope
# 
aaronpk s/bridgey/http://brid.gy
# AnnB laughs at wseltzer popup
# bigbluehat ...brid.gy publishes using your feed and throttles it's publishing
# bigbluehat ...if you set it up to let anyone through, it will get shut down
# bigbluehat ...if you do things their way, you won't get shut down
# bigbluehat ...to chris's point, why are we talking about this at all?
# elf-pavlik cwebber2++
# bigbluehat ...federation is completely about reaching your friends
# bigbluehat ...reaching your friends is a core user story
# eprodrom q?
# bigbluehat ...we're not here to help people in their own little mono-cultures
# AnnB or between tools, that are willing to be federated
# bigbluehat Arnaud: part of not being shut down is not using a client with a bad name like...DestroyTwitter
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# bigbluehat eprodrom: I'm wanting to sketch out how pump.io does federation
# bigbluehat ...since we're kind of approaching our lunch hour, I can do more of this later
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82987&oldid=82985
# bigbluehat ...the pump.io API has a number of endpoints for doing federation
# bigbluehat ...there's an outbox feed
# bigbluehat ...I can write to that
# bigbluehat ...there's an inbox feed that my friends generate
# bigbluehat ...there's lists of people I follow, lists of people following me, lists of replies, etc.
# bigbluehat ...main way to interact is to post to your output feed
# bigbluehat ...pump.io will do the effort of adding that item to the list of favorites
# bigbluehat ...and move that item
# bigbluehat s/move/moving
# bigbluehat ...the inbox for the end user is typically read only
# bigbluehat ...but for other people on other servers it is write only
# bigbluehat ...other servers will deliver to those servers based on the content in the ActivityStream
# elf-pavlik eprodrom, aaronpk can you compare micropub+webmention to pump.io APIs (c2s, s2s) ?
# bigbluehat ...who should be receiving that activity
# bigbluehat ...if aaronpk posts a new note that is to eprodrom, his server will route that to his inbox
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# bigbluehat ...discovery is through WebFinger and in some cases the ActivityStream
# bigbluehat ...authentication is via 2-legged OAuth
# bigbluehat ...it's basically saying, I'm aaronpk at identi.ca and you are pumpyourself.com, here's a message for eprodrom
# bigbluehat ...the pump.io server deals with routing to that inbox
# bigbluehat ...there are pluses and minuses to this system
# elf-pavlik multicast ?
# bigbluehat ...one minus, for a big fan-out it can be repetitive
# bigbluehat ...with SMTP an email to lots of people will get delivered once
# bigbluehat ...with pump.io it'll get delivered multiple times
# bigbluehat ...there's also issues with maintaining social graphs
# bigbluehat missed the sandro scenario :-P
# bigbluehat ...it's pretty reliable
# bigbluehat ...there are some social graph scenarios that have not been figured out yet
# bigbluehat ...if cwebber2 follows eprodrom, tantek follows eprodrom, and tantek comments on eprodrom post...it doesn't make it all the way back to cwebber2
# bigbluehat is totally not sure he's getting all the names in all the right orders :-P
# bigbluehat corrections welcome
# bigbluehat ...good news is we are able to move the content around via activitystreams
# bigbluehat ...you only get content from your friends...he doesn't have to make an authenticated request to my server
# bigbluehat ...the main reason I wanted to bring it up today is that it integrates very nicely into the API
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, if you didn't i was about to
# bigbluehat ...it's the same API for discovering and reading from the API
# elf-pavlik ACTION pelf to Investigate 'my client' to 'someone else server' authentication
# bigbluehat ...there's a part that's compatible and also closely compatible with the activitystreams
# bigbluehat tantek: I noticed that you've build support for Pubsubhubbub (PuSH) in the past
# bigbluehat ...it seems that's no longer the case
# bigbluehat ...what were your reasons for not using it
# ben_thatmustbeme pump.io and indieweb methods seems very similar, with the exception that pump.io pushes data to other servers when commenting, while indieweb sends a mention to tell the server to pull
# bigbluehat ...maybe there's something we can learn from that
# bigbluehat eprodrom: OStatus was based on PuSH
# bigbluehat ...we were unable to (easily) do remote delivery of private content
# bigbluehat ...if you do a subscription to a single feed
# bigbluehat ...via PuSH
# bigbluehat ...then I will get all the same items as Amy would get
# bigbluehat ...if she subscribes to tantek via PuSH
# bigbluehat ...there is no authentication on part of the subscriber to say I'm eprodrom or I'm Amy
# bigbluehat ...just I do have a valid endpoint to which I want stuff delivered
# bigbluehat ...reason that's an issue is that tantek is posting private images or his location
# bigbluehat ...that would cross that federation boundary
# ben_thatmustbeme also that means auth is on the sender instead of receiver
# bigbluehat tantek: so there were no private notification features that you could use?
# bigbluehat eprodrom: essentially, yes.
# bigbluehat ...there are a couple ways to hack around it
# bigbluehat ...tantek has a specific feed that is just for eprodrom
# bigbluehat ...then tantek would be responsible to publish just into that feed
# bigbluehat ...or one for friends
# bigbluehat ...or one for family
# bigbluehat ...this is my feed for friends and cwebber2
# AdamB q+
# bigbluehat aaronpk: another way is to say your essentially putting an access token into the URL to essentially authenticate that user
# bigbluehat eprodrom: essentially, just pushing the problem farther down the line
# bigbluehat ...what pump.io does
# bigbluehat ...there are a lot of issues with PuSH
# bigbluehat ...we tried to work around them
# bigbluehat ...it was easier to move to other relatively simple solutions
# bigbluehat ...like having the publisher have an idea to whom they want the content to go to
# bigbluehat tantek: so more SMTP than RSS style
# bigbluehat eprodrom: that's a very good way to put it
# bigbluehat who's speaking? nick-wise?
# bigbluehat AdamB: right now we're working to sync between SharePoint sites
# bigbluehat ...syncing the content between them is important
# bigbluehat ...eprodrom thanks for sharing that
# bigbluehat aaronpk: with the IndieWebCamp sites that we're seeing there's essentially 2 ways we're dealing with this
# bigbluehat ...one is by posting a WebMention
# bigbluehat ...I send a very simple payload to Amy's WebMention endpoint
# bigbluehat ...that I can discover from here site
# bigbluehat ...and send a very simple payload
# bigbluehat ...Amy's site can go verify...and then do what she wants with that
# bigbluehat ...such as publishing it on here site
# bigbluehat ...it's gotten us pretty far
# elf-pavlik rhiaro++
# bigbluehat ...the way it works is by parsing the hentry's on my site
# bigbluehat ...she can then comment on my site by publshing to here site
# elf-pavlik s/hentry/h-entry/
# bigbluehat s/publshing/publishing
# bigbluehat tnx elf-pavlik
# bigbluehat ...this is about commenting directly on a post
# bigbluehat ...we've been experimenting with an anti-spam thing called Vouch
# bigbluehat ...dealing with the "I can comment on anything" spam stuff
# bigbluehat ...the other thing we've been experimenting with is PuSH
# bigbluehat ...which gets more into the group context
# bigbluehat ...get posts in real time
# bigbluehat ...pubsubhubbub looks like a good model
# bigbluehat ...it's only been recently that we've seen some implementations
# bigbluehat ...though hubs have been around for several years
# bigbluehat ...we're using it with microformats
# AnnB oh! I need to go to another room to call in for the IG meeting
# bigbluehat ...as a subscriber if I want to use it with tantek's blog, "hey I want to subscribe to you"
# elf-pavlik action-12
# elf-pavlik ^ we can't use PubSubHubbub
# bigbluehat ...when tantek publishes, he notifies his pub that he's published something he wants others to be notfied of
# bigbluehat ...the hub then notifies the others
# AnnB (not sure anyone will attend)
# bigbluehat ...did I miss anything?
# elf-pavlik harry, let's just make it clear
# bigbluehat ...PuSH itself does not itself have authentication for distinguishing private feeds
# bigbluehat ...I'll probably use access tokens in the URL
# bigbluehat ...with IndieAuth, people can pre-register
# bigbluehat ...we may reach the same conclusion
# bigbluehat ...as eprodrom
# bigbluehat AdamB: what we do is when you request a feed, we check who you are, then send you a specific feed
# bigbluehat aaronpk: that's essentially what I mean by an access token for the feed
# bigbluehat ...since I'm already giving you the feed in HTML, it's not a stretch to think of doing it for a client
# bigbluehat bblfish: I was working on notification something like pingback in 2011
# bigbluehat ...before LDP came out
# bigbluehat ...doing something very lightweight like the IndieWeb folks are doing
# bigbluehat ...tying into the web without asking very much
# bigbluehat ...when you authenticate with a WebID
# bigbluehat ...if people know your WebID, they can POST their stuff there to notify you
# bigbluehat ...that's very close to what eprodrom was describing
# bigbluehat ...with the semantic web, doing this in a neat way, describing the container
# bigbluehat ...having your webid point to that container
# bigbluehat ...and with a couple relations, you can get it nicely described
# bigbluehat cwebber2: I have a number of questions
# bigbluehat ...how would you do private posts?
# bigbluehat aaronpk: right now, my software creates an audience for a post
# bigbluehat ...there's a login box
# bigbluehat ...you can identify yourself as your domain name
# bigbluehat ...and on my site, I can show you those private pots
# bigbluehat s/pots/posts
# bigbluehat ...there is no central thing
# bigbluehat ...you can use your reader to collect the stream for you
# bigbluehat ...we've not yet built that into the reader that my site gets your private things
# elf-pavlik action-54
# bigbluehat ...we're going to find out if we can shoehorn that into PuSH
# bigbluehat cwebber2: some of the things that are in pump
# bigbluehat ...one side is the command language
# bigbluehat ...subscribe me to a mailing list
# bigbluehat ...or whack a goblin on the head
# bigbluehat ...some thing that's mutating state on the server
# bigbluehat ...is this specific to the server?
# bigbluehat ...or is there a shared action vocabulary?
# bigbluehat eprodrom: with pump.io that happens through the client API
# bigbluehat ...open farm game acts as a client to your pump.io site
# bigbluehat aaronpk: the one command language thing is syndication
# bigbluehat ...(for us)
# bigbluehat ...the client doesn't know how to post to twitter
# bigbluehat ...but my server does
# bigbluehat ...that's the one command language thing that we've done
# bigbluehat harry: just so people know, we don't have patent-non-assert on PuSH and even FOAF
# bigbluehat ...we just can't use them as normative until we have that
# bigbluehat ...it'll require some hassling
# bigbluehat ...if we need that
# bigbluehat tantek: several of us have tried to work with PuSH in various degrees...so let's be upfront
# bigbluehat ...PuSH 0.3 has been around for years
# bigbluehat ...and there's really only a couple implementations
# bigbluehat ...there's Google AppSpot and Superfeedr
# eprodrom q+
# bigbluehat ...this is supposed to be Web-wide, but to only have 2 implementations makes me suspicious
# bigbluehat ...on the consuming side, it's been shown to be non-trivial
# ben_thatmustbeme PUbSubHubbub
# bigbluehat aaronpk: it took me ~2 hours...so it's pretty trivial
# bigbluehat tantek: it's been brought up as being too much of a pain to be too hard for people to implement
# bigbluehat ...in the IndieWebCamp
# bigbluehat ...it seems like it's too much work
# bigbluehat aaronpk: the spec has holes, so it's hard to read the spec as a guide
# bigbluehat ...I took a stab at the guide to implemente it
# bigbluehat ...and I found my guide more helpful than the spac
# bigbluehat s/spac/spec
# bigbluehat ...the hard bit's understanding the spec
# bigbluehat eprodrom: it should be pointed out that many of the open source social projects have their own PuSH hubs
# bigbluehat tantek: oh they do
# bigbluehat eprodrom: things are mediated through the hubs
# bigbluehat ...to allow for huge fan outs of the deployments
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# bigbluehat ...if you don't have that fan out, it's simpler
# bigbluehat ...for a lot of implementers they just implement the publisher and the hub into the same software
# bigbluehat ...even thought it's the hub part of the spec, it's the publisher that's doing it
# bigbluehat ...theirs a hub in status.net, friendi.ca, diaspora
# elf-pavlik_ AFAIK diaspora uses google hub :(
# bigbluehat ...doing a general purpose hub is a lot of work
# bigbluehat ...it's not that hard at lower limits
# AdamB does somebody have a link for super feeder?
# bigbluehat tantek: as a person wanting to do the publishing side
# bigbluehat ...and there being only two public hubs
# bigbluehat ...that feels like a vulnerability
# AdamB elf-pavlik++
# bigbluehat ...Google doesn't actually support 0.4
# bigbluehat ...and Superfeedr doesn't support all of 0.4
# bigbluehat ...I don't see rapid evolution of it with only two players
# bigbluehat ...normally you need healthy competition to keep things moving
# bigbluehat ...I'm raising these issues that you know about this...despite that we're trying to make it work within the IndieWeb community
# bigbluehat ...we're looking at WebMention instead...but it's not to the point of shipping yet.
# elf-pavlik_ cwebber2, at least 2-3 years ago almos all did !!!
# bigbluehat ...that's the only fallback approach I know of
# bigbluehat ...for private messages and stuff
# bigbluehat eprodrom: something worth mentioning about OStatus
# bigbluehat ...and it's Atom implementation
# bigbluehat ...there was a third part call Salmon
# bigbluehat ...which was for unsubscribed updates
# bigbluehat ...if I comment on a post that's part of a feed I'm not subscribed ot
# bigbluehat s/ot/to/
# bigbluehat ...much along the WebMention side
# bigbluehat ...tells the upstream (hence Salmon) about the post
# bigbluehat ...delivering activities between two servers
# bigbluehat ...with pump.io there's not a distinction between subscribe and unsubscribe
# bigbluehat ...they go through the same pipes
# bigbluehat harry: just to reiterate
# bigbluehat ...one of the reasons we separated federation out
# bigbluehat ...was because of these issues
# bigbluehat ...things we thought could be safely ignored
# eprodrom Are we wrapping for lunch?
# bigbluehat bblfish: what's interesting is that we have two...sending message remote, but perhaps super efficient for people who've got millions of users
# AdamB close the queue in favor of lunch?
# bigbluehat ...and the scalability seems to be generating the need for PuSH and other tools
# bigbluehat ...but there seem to be some linked data-ish ways to get something going
# bigbluehat ...where the API at a bit higher level than HTTP
# ben_thatmustbeme i think so. I ate too much at the break, now i'm not hungry
# bigbluehat ...the browser could be doing something similar
# elf-pavlik i guess bblfish assumes action-54 already solved
# elf-pavlik action-54
# bigbluehat ...which is why I'm concerned a bit that servers are doing federation
# bigbluehat ...that perhaps could be done elsewhere
# bigbluehat ...and that federation could be done at a different layer
# bigbluehat bblfish not sure I quite said that right :-P
# bigbluehat ...or anything else for that matter ^_^
# bigbluehat Arnaud: there is no immediate next action about handling this distinction
# bigbluehat ...we should keep the federation deliverable in mind when we talk about the API
# bigbluehat ...as it does lead into the other
# bigbluehat ...they're just things we'll need to take into account as we move forward with the API
# bigbluehat ...then we'll have deiu demo the LDP implemention
# bigbluehat tantek: I put a slot in the agenda for the demos
# bigbluehat ...for after lunch
# bigbluehat ...deiu maybe over lunch,. maybe you an connect it to user stories
# bigbluehat ...the list of user stories is linked from wiki
# bigbluehat ...anyone else who wants to demo
# bigbluehat ...can do the same
# bigbluehat ...running code...we like it
# bigbluehat lunch time
# elf-pavlik would someone like to take few minutes to try get audio working from my side?
# bigbluehat tnx bblfish
# eprodrom bblfish: can you explain exactly what you mean, and why that would be preferable to having the conceptual separation between "client-to-server" and "server-to-server", which is helping us get our work done?
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik, IMO it boils down to authentication in s2s nowadays people find it easier to authenticate the 'client'
# elf-pavlik eprodrom, ^
# elf-pavlik or server acting as 'client' or on someone's behalf
# elf-pavlik tantek, how do you authenticate your client to arbitrary server?
# elf-pavlik in my 'reader' i want to 'like' 15 posts and request goes directly to servers of publishers not to my server
# elf-pavlik but authentication works differently, melvster and bblfish assume it easy since they like WebID+TLS (similar to IndieCert but without intermediary service)
# elf-pavlik Bon Appétit @all
# elf-pavlik melvster, if you don't use WebID+TLS (or equivalent alternative) athenticating to 50 different servers in 5 minutes makes a lot of hassle nowadays
# elf-pavlik melvster, what do you think of following directions of discovering ldp:Containers and operatoins they allow?
# elf-pavlik to reuse existing predicates (link relations)
# elf-pavlik e.g. "hydra:property": "author"
# elf-pavlik melvster, how do i find container with things that you have authored ? e.g. using inverse of schema:author
# elf-pavlik or container with people that you know, following foaf:knows
# elf-pavlik or events you participated in, following schema:event
# elf-pavlik melvster, let's don't get stack on from which vocab we pick terms as long as we both can understand them in conversation
# elf-pavlik in general 1) i know your URI identyfing you 2) i know predicate i want to follow e.g. foaf:knows 3) i want to get have container of all the things which relate to you via this predicate
# elf-pavlik have you looked at https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design ?
# elf-pavlik and let's forget sparql for this conversation if you don't mind
# elf-pavlik how do you discover relevant containers?
# elf-pavlik container of 'my friendss' or 'events i participate(d) in' or 'my wishlist'
# elf-pavlik foaf:knows, schema:event, gr:seeks ^
# elf-pavlik AFAIK currently following your nose to a *container* doesn't work that well, you can't use predicate directly because of rdfs:range (doesn't include container or rather implies that container has some particualar type)(
# elf-pavlik deiu, can you read last 4 lines? how do i *discover* container of all my friends, events i participated in, things i gr:seek
# elf-pavlik so far I find hydra:collection the most interesting https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design
# elf-pavlik melvster, do you really think your comments help? (not questioning that they make sense in some way...)
# elf-pavlik melvster, happy hacking!
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# elf-pavlik i want to follow in inverse direction schema:author and get container of all the things i authored
# elf-pavlik this one tries to have also container of things i authored of particular type https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L370
# elf-pavlik hydra:type doens't exist, just playing with idea
# elf-pavlik deiu, what if i want to read list of 2000ppl linked to you via foaf:knows ?
# Loqi Asambra made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82988&oldid=82987
# elf-pavlik this page explains how to 'find' collection containing it https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design
# elf-pavlik following already existing predicates but not messing with their rdfs:range
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# elf-pavlik but i can't do
# elf-pavlik <#me> foaf:knows [ a ldp:Container ] .
# elf-pavlik or maybe sholdn't ?
# elf-pavlik deiu++
# elf-pavlik looking for seciton explaining how to discover containers based on ldp:hasMemberRelation
# elf-pavlik < > ldp:DirectContainer;
# elf-pavlik ldp:membershipResource <#it>;
# elf-pavlik ldp:hasMemberRelation bt:hasBug;
# elf-pavlik <#it> a bt:Product;
# elf-pavlik how do i link from <#it> to that container
# elf-pavlik hmmm... i could just use inverse of ldp:membershipResource
# elf-pavlik
{ "@id": "#it", "@reverse": { "ldp:membershipResource": { "@type": "ldp:DirectContainer" } }# elf-pavlik i guess i just looked for using inverse of ldp:membershipResource
# elf-pavlik just with this one I don't see a way to use ldp:hasMemberRelation and use inverse of that relation
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# elf-pavlik melvster, i look how to avoid 'fixed paths' as in https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md#types-of-address
# elf-pavlik and instead reuse existing predicates e.g. http://schema.org/follows
# bigbluehat is excited about game demos ^_^
# Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82989&oldid=82988
# elf-pavlik action-44
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# elf-pavlik using ldp:Container instead of as:Collection would give a first step to align 'social syntax' and 'social api'
# elf-pavlik aaronpk, yes thx!
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# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom elf-pavlik: I agree about containers and collections
# elf-pavlik eprodrom, thx!
# eprodrom SoLiD
# wseltzer sandro: I was trying over lunch to come up with a name, Social Linked Data, or SOLID
# eprodrom q?
# bigbluehat ...I'm SoLD ;)
# eprodrom !!!
# bigbluehat s/...I'm SoLD ;)//
# bigbluehat un-minutes his silliness
# eprodrom ack Arnaud
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# elf-pavlik Zakim, mute bblfish
# Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82990&oldid=82989
# wseltzer sandro: it's not just "post to create a new URL," but also a way to get back to those resources
# bigbluehat bblfish about 10 minutes ago
# elf-pavlik WebID ~= WebID+TLS http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/spec/
# elf-pavlik s/~=/!=/
# sandro deiu tries to fiddle with http://mzereba.github.io/todo/
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# wseltzer [deiu demos a "make your profile" by changing his picture to a horse head]
# wseltzer deiu: it can include information from multiple sources or profiles, e.g. personal, employer,
# 
rhiaro deiu add me on the chat, http://rhiaro.co.uk/about#me
# elf-pavlik just as this IRC channel
# wseltzer sandro: does each person post to their own site, or to some thrd place
# Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82991&oldid=82990
# elf-pavlik deiu++ melvster++
# sandro deiu: demo http://cimba.co
# bigbluehat melvster: does it store in both user's choices of storage? or do you have to pick one for the chat session?
# elf-pavlik melvster, can you post chatroom link on irc?
# bigbluehat melvster: thanks!
# AnnB I think he already demo'd that with melvster, bblfish
# AnnB no, shepazu ... there's a doodle poll started
# AnnB we propose May 4-5, for those who are in Europe
# AnnB or can come to Europe
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# elf-pavlik rhiaro, just pointed that out :)
# wseltzer AnnB, are you talking TPAC or AC?
# wseltzer heard from Harry the group was planning to meet at TPAC, shepazu
# AnnB there's a doodle poll for both ... altho the dates for Paris need to be corrected
# elf-pavlik rhiaro, I never finished setting them up with proper JSON-LD @context for various remoteStorage modules
# eprodrom That's interesting!
# elf-pavlik melvster++
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82992&oldid=82991
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# elf-pavlik rhiaro, http://friendsunhosted.com/
# elf-pavlik but that had similar issue to one sandro pointed out with CIMBA (or as I understood it)
# bigbluehat ah. I'll update harry's name database then ;)
# bigbluehat shepazu: does it have a name?
# 
bblfish spec for Web Access Control is here https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
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# bigbluehat shepazu: much thanks
# AdamB harry, does this user story apply to your question: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Co-operation_between_NGOs
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# 
melvster there will also be a people search widget at https://webizen.org/
# elf-pavlik rel="webmention" in <link> or HTTP HEAD
# elf-pavlik Link: <http://alice.host/webmention-endpoint>; rel="webmention"
# elf-pavlik <link href="http://alice.host/webmention-endpoint" rel="webmention" />
# 
tantek more here on indieweb invitations: https://indiewebcamp.com/invitation#How_to
# eprodrom bblfish: good point
# elf-pavlik bblfish++
# elf-pavlik on rel and following your nose without 'fixed urls' https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Hypermedia
# elf-pavlik tantek, I don't think we need to support static websites!
# elf-pavlik nice that IndieWeb does it but i guess we don't want to make it a requirement
# elf-pavlik ISSUE: do we put requirement on supporting static websites?
# trackbot Created ISSUE-24 - Do we put requirement on supporting static websites?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/24/edit>.
# tantek demonstration of a decentralized event http://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/17/1/socialwg-2015
# elf-pavlik bblfish, static site generator - no content negotiation, GET only (did i get it right?)
# tantek see also: https://indiewebcamp.com/static-site
# bblfish that's explanation in the wiki page https://github.com/read-write-web/wiki/wiki
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# eprodrom Well done!
# elf-pavlik sandro, link to 'follows' vocab?
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# eprodrom ack tantek
# elf-pavlik deiu++ melvster++ sandro++ timbl++
# elf-pavlik ok
# melvster this page has SIOC : has_subscriber to a blog : https://deiu.rww.io/mb/following
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82993&oldid=82992
# AnnB and I, who do not have my own domain, tried to RSVP but could not
# AnnB (pointing out that some might not have their own domains ... e.g., my mom)
# AnnB (or me)
# elf-pavlik AnnB AFAIK IndieWeb folks will ask you to get at least subdomain, but then still you may need to deal with setting up your SSL
# AnnB (or, maybe I didn't know how to RSVP in some other manner)
# AnnB my point is, elf-pavlik, I think it's unreasonable to expect the every person will have the interest or skill to do that
# elf-pavlik AnnB, I agree!
# elf-pavlik we had this discussion on mailing list, and Pump.io, MediaGoblin, Diaspora, Friendica and many other systems don't put such requirement on people
# elf-pavlik just an IndieWeb thing
# eprodrom q?
# elf-pavlik AnnB++
# AnnB for the record .. these guys explain that my RSVP from Facebook may not have come through due to my privacy settings in Facebook
# elf-pavlik IndieWeb --- option --- option --- option --- Silo (F,T,G) etc.
# AnnB in other words, nothing about me having my own domain
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack cwebber2
# eprodrom ack cwebber2
# eprodrom ack cwebber
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# eprodrom q+
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom++
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack Arnaud
# eprodrom q-
# eprodrom q?
# AnnB waves at Frederick
# eprodrom ack bblfish
# elf-pavlik i can hear him!
# AdamB zakim, who's on the phone?
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# AnnB that's funny .. esp that bblfish was "minus karma-ing" himself
# AnnB sadly, bret, seems to be true
# AnnB of course that's how they make their money
# elf-pavlik rhiaro++
# AnnB q?
# AnnB q+
# ben_thatmustbeme forgot the 4eva part :P
# eprodrom ack q
# eprodrom ack AnnB
# eprodrom q?
# wseltzer thinks AnnB wants http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/science/rent-division-calculator.html
# elf-pavlik do we plan a break? i need to move to another space soon
# cwebber2 AnnB: http://shed.bike/ :)
# wseltzer unfortunately, here, there's more than $$ to the division
# eprodrom elf-pavlik: at 15h EDT
# AnnB we solved it with multiple rounds of each family dividing up the total $$ across all 15 houses ... averaging the various iterations .. identifying a couple unfair situations
# elf-pavlik rhiaro thx i also got eprodrom reply :)
# elf-pavlik videos + permalinks
# eprodrom q?
# Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82995&oldid=82993
# AnnB sorry bblfish et al., they were trying to raise the shades
# AnnB KevinMarks .. hehe
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# 
KevinMarks shipping nothing can be a good idea sometimes
# AnnB +1
# eprodrom q?
# elf-pavlik we could have on RPC based (like micropub and sockethub) and one more REST pump.io, LDP, Hydra, LDF
# eprodrom q+
# eprodrom ack bblfish
# eprodrom q?
# wseltzer zakim, close queue!
# AdamB i share the same concerns cwebber2
# Loqi @SocialWebWG :: three different action models out there right now: http://t.co/uhirAPeuWx, #AS action handlers, and @w3c #Hydra. convergence would be great.
# elf-pavlik Erik
# 
deiu cwebber2: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, I do think it moves toward getting things standardized though. If you publish 3 specs, its a lot better than everyone do their own thing. You build interconnection where needed
# elf-pavlik tantek, see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Social_Media
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack eprodrom
# ben_thatmustbeme I would love to work on eventually converging these with minor changes. we may never get there, but if we can get the specs down to a point of "here are the 2 or 3 things that we differ on but everything else is the same" i think that would make for a possible convergence
# KevinMarks !meme two drafts enter, one draft leaves [thunderdome]
# ben_thatmustbeme or you standardize a few minor options at that point
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82996&oldid=82995
# cwebber2 http://gmarceau.qc.ca/articles/your-wrists-hurt-you-must-be-a-programmer.html for those with wrist issues
# ben_thatmustbeme thanks for that cwebber2
# ben_thatmustbeme listens in on his conversation
# ben_thatmustbeme AnnB, you said you are staying for IWC?
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# AnnB ben_thatmustbeme, yes for at least the first part of Thursday
# ben_thatmustbeme excellent
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# elf-pavlik aaronpk thanks for taking us for a tour ;)
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# elf-pavlik can you unmute laptop?
# wseltzer we're getting feedback
# elf-pavlik it worked twice for 1sec
# elf-pavlik ok!
# elf-pavlik yes, can hear!
# wseltzer scribenick: wseltzer
# elf-pavlik +1
# wseltzer scribenick: Tsyesika
# elf-pavlik tantek, even picked one from 15.20-16.50 slot
# elf-pavlik s/even/evan/
# AnnB +1 on Tantek's proposal
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# AnnB although also supporting Evan's point that we need to get something done sooner than later
# AdamB +1
# AnnB (ie that was the point of having a date)
# elf-pavlik has 'fixed path' http://<hostname>/api/user/<nickname>/followers
# elf-pavlik and could reuse predicates like http://schema.org/follows
# elf-pavlik more details in quotes on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Hypermedia
# Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82999&oldid=82996
# Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82998&oldid=82997
# elf-pavlik e.g. RPC API like micropub/webmention/sockethub/Pump.io(commands) and REST API like LDP/Hydra/LDF/Pump.io(paths)
# eprodrom q?
# elf-pavlik 2 open APIs better than 20k snowflake APIs ;)
# eprodrom ack bblfish
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik++
# elf-pavlik can you retype?
# eprodrom PROPOSAL: the WG encourage co-evolution and bridge-building across Social API candidates, instead of competition towards a date-driven selection
# elf-pavlik +1
# eprodrom +1
# AnnB +1
# AdamB +1
# AnnB I think bblfish said he could imagine "micro working drafts" on specific topics
# eprodrom q?
# Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83002&oldid=82999
# Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83001&oldid=83000
# AnnB s/explain the logic/ explain the logic of recommending 2 paths/
# AnnB (if we do)
# elf-pavlik has 'fixed path' http://<hostname>/api/user/<nickname>/followers
# 
Tsyesika eprodrom: the rough idea is that you can always find your followers at /<nickname>/followers but if there was a follow your nose you would look for a link with a rel type and follow that
# elf-pavlik nope
# elf-pavlik q+ re: reusing vocab terms and clear connection between 'data syntax' and API
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack bblfish
# AnnB s/unanmous /unanimous /
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro, aaronpk, for elf to speak do we have to unmute the other machine?
# ben_thatmustbeme he is next on the queue
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik aaronpk not unmute mic just speaker i guess...
# elf-pavlik timer on Zakim?
# elf-pavlik i can just type, 3-4 lines
# AdamB bblfish - can you type in your last part about efficiency
# sandro Real link: http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-primer/
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
# elf-pavlik instead of paths like http://<hostname>/api/user/<nickname>/followers
# elf-pavlik we can reuse predicates like http://schema.org/follows
# elf-pavlik but it has issue with collections/containers which hydra:Collection tries to resolve https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design
# elf-pavlik i'll just type 2 more lines
# elf-pavlik so we can link to *collection* of followers https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/574193664974520320
# Loqi @elfpavlik :: Collections in #RDF? https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/82#issuecomment-77688096 @LDPWG @SocialWebWG @danbri @kidehen @manusporny @jasnell https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/574193664974520320/photo/1
# eprodrom Please just type it
# elf-pavlik using schema:follows (or inverse)
# elf-pavlik reusing vocab terms (predicates) instead hardcoding paths
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom Thanks elf-pavlik
# eprodrom ack sandro
# tilgovi +1 rhiaro
# elf-pavlik no need to parse HTML!
# bigbluehat discovery can happen in a Link header fwiw--then there's no HTML parsing
# Tsyesika ... if a new social network came out and their documentation did not look like social networks which came before and instead it says to start with the discovery where the links are - I think it's unlikely they would, i think it's likely they will just put out the URL patterns and not the discovery process
# bigbluehat discovery can happen in a Link header fwiw--then there's no HTML parsing
# bigbluehat puts it in the minutes
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack timbl
# AnnB timbl: I want to distinguish between reading and writing
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# AnnB ... follow your nose = follow URLs
# ben_thatmustbeme Tsyesika, remember you can stop conversation if you need to catch up
# AnnB s/follow URLs/follow links/
# eprodrom q+
# AnnB ... geek conventions
# ben_thatmustbeme thinks "how many people does it take to scribe timbl"
# AnnB just a few
# tantek here are also some suggestions for URL designs for data: http://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design (feel free to add / feedback inline)
# AnnB timbl: no one in LD community has discussed that .. probly would run away screaming
# AnnB ... example of one technique I used
# AnnB ... small set of rules
# eprodrom tantek: can you load up https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Twitter_API ?
# eprodrom ack Arnaud
# ben_thatmustbeme right now we have a level of indirection... but it is non-programatic, you have to check the docs on a particular host
# AnnB s/posision/position/
# elf-pavlik q+ re: data doesn't need to leave on same server/domain
# AnnB s/defent/defend/
# bigbluehat checkout github's API for a good follow-your-nose (aka Hypermedia API) example
# ben_thatmustbeme so you have to look up that site X stores at /users/bob you have to either know their pattern or find their documentation. We are just talking about a useful markup for it
# elf-pavlik s/leave/'live'/
# bigbluehat q+
# bigbluehat ...wow...long queue
# bigbluehat q-
# bigbluehat go ahead bblfish I'm just watching :)
# bigbluehat bblfish++
# elf-pavlik i have very short '1 line' point to this conversation
# bigbluehat and the assumption exists that those URLs won't move...ever...
# bigbluehat but they do constantly...even at the big silos
# AnnB can you type it, elf? (your 1-line point)
# elf-pavlik i'll type it!
# eprodrom q?
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# Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83005&oldid=83002
# eprodrom ack tantek
# eprodrom PROPOSED: the WG will prefer follow-your-nose architecture in the API candidates we consider
# elf-pavlik +1
# AnnB s/mut/moot/
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack sandro
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik my photos, videos, audio etc. can all stay hosted on different servers and different domains! can't always reach them from path 'under' my online profile
# eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
# bigbluehat <link type="text/plain" rel="author" href="http://domain/humans.txt" />
# elf-pavlik my photos, videos, audio etc. can all stay hosted on different servers and different domains! can't always reach them from path 'under' my online profile
# bigbluehat sandro: ^^
# elf-pavlik my account: https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper
# bigbluehat sandro ...maybe should be `authors` ;)
# elf-pavlik my photos folder: http://media.hackers4peace.net/19a95844-4180-4325-9b3a-ec5ec6d04dc9
# elf-pavlik can't reach it via / path
# KevinMarks for big silos we can track equivalent URL patterns - see https://code.google.com/p/google-sgnodemapper/ for an earlier effort at this:
# elf-pavlik lost audio now :(
# AnnB waaa, elf
# eprodrom PROPOSAL: the WG will prefer follow-your-nose architecture in the API candidates we consider
# elf-pavlik +1
# eprodrom +1
# AdamB +1
# AnnB I'm only abstaining in favor of "real" geeks' opinions
# elf-pavlik webfinger--
# wseltzer overhears a recommendation for .less_well_known
# bigbluehat webfinger-- bye webfinger
# eprodrom RESOLVED: the WG will prefer follow-your-nose architecture in the API candidates we consider
# AnnB more geeky than average, bret .. but the real geeks should make that decision
# elf-pavlik \o/
# elf-pavlik aaronpk no worries! thanks for all the effort to have it working most of the time :)
# KevinMarks what is follow-your-nose?
# eprodrom KevinMarks: using discovery to find an endpoint
# eprodrom So if you want to find the list of friends of tantek.com
# eprodrom q-
# KevinMarks so XFN/FOAF style?
# elf-pavlik page above links to http://microformats.org/wiki/json
# eprodrom KevinMarks: ...you fetch "http://tantek.com/", parse the HTML, and find the link with rel="friends"
# Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83007&oldid=83005
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83008&oldid=83007
# eprodrom KevinMarks: http://tantek.com/friends http://aaronparecki.com/friends etc.
# KevinMarks so folow-your-node is code for "define some rel values" OK, got it
# eprodrom Yes
# elf-pavlik similar to parsing RDFa, JSON-LD or Turtle - you end up with the same graph
# eprodrom I say "Discovery"
# AnnB KevinMarks, do you mean "follow-your-nose"?
# AnnB (as opposed to "follow-your-node"?)
# eprodrom q?
# elf-pavlik i started tiny basics on mf json 2 mf json-ld script https://github.com/elf-pavlik/mf2jsonld
# eprodrom AnnB: it's a good typo
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom ack cwebber2
# eprodrom Grrr
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# eprodrom ack cwebber
# elf-pavlik timbl, i started a bit on conversion script https://github.com/elf-pavlik/mf2jsonld
# elf-pavlik to get something as in http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats
# eprodrom +1
# AnnB rhiaro +1
# eprodrom ack sandro
# AnnB s/sick/stick/
# eprodrom Premature ack
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# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik issue for RDFa serializer in JS https://github.com/zazukoians/rdf-ext/issues/10
# elf-pavlik similar issue as microformats html serializer
# eprodrom ack timbl
# eprodrom ack cwebber
# eprodrom actor[image][width] = 250
# elf-pavlik cwebber2, we have discussion about it on public-linked-json list
# elf-pavlik let me find a link
# eprodrom actor[image][width]=250&actor[image][height]=250
# eprodrom q?
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# elf-pavlik cwebber2, re associative arrays in JSON-LD https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2014Dec/0005.html
# elf-pavlik issue-14
# elf-pavlik eprodrom++
# elf-pavlik you can't have that in microformats http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#fig-an-object-that-is-both-a-place-and-a-gr-location
# tantek I'm still waiting for my fixes to examples 1-2 to be accepted: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/84
# elf-pavlik you could convert mf -> RDF but not the other way
# elf-pavlik tantek, can you have this one in mf? http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#fig-an-object-that-is-both-a-place-and-a-gr-location
# elf-pavlik behind serializations one also needs to map vocabs
# elf-pavlik +1 ISSUE
# elf-pavlik one can use microformats vocab with JSON-LD http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83009&oldid=83008
# eprodrom q-
# AdamB does having more than one syntax increase the complexity enough to hinder adoption ?
# elf-pavlik RDFa++
# elf-pavlik action-34
# ben_thatmustbeme did we lose track of microformats vs micropub?
# ben_thatmustbeme seemed like we jumped between them
# ben_thatmustbeme once form posting directly to json begins working, I think the form encoding method can go away
# trackbot Created ISSUE-25 - What syntax is (syntaxes are) to be used in the social api (eg microformats vs json-ld; form-encoding vs json-ld). Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/25/edit>.
# eprodrom q?
# elf-pavlik got to go!
# elf-pavlik great meeting @all and enjoy the dinner!!! :D
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# aaronpk group photo is posted! https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17
# eprodrom bravo and thanks all
# eprodrom trackbot, end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-minutes.html trackbot
# RRSAgent I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-actions.rdf :
# wseltzer Thsaks to all for participating, and especially the scribes!
# wseltzer s/Thsaks/Thanks/
# aaronpk and posted on my site! http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/03/18/5/w3c
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# elf-pavlik aaronpk.goTo(
{"name": "Veggie Galaxy", "geo": { ... }}) // we <3 blank nodes ;)# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, do you know of microformats version of http://lod-cloud.net/ ?
# elf-pavlik #SWAT0? http://aaron.pk/n4aC5
# elf-pavlik melvster++
# elf-pavlik nice demo with deiu!
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# elf-pavlik melvster++
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# KevinMarks reads history
# KevinMarks we did have arbitrary JSON <-> microformats with XOXO, but that was less useful
# KevinMarks !meme rel="nose follower" [https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/thumb/2/25/2015-03-18-w3c-f2f.jpg/1000px-2015-03-18-w3c-f2f.jpg]
# KevinMarks !meme rel="nose follower" [https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/2/25/2015-03-18-w3c-f2f.jpg]
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# bblfish !meme rel="nose follower" [https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/thumb/2/25/2015-03-18-w3c-f2f.jpg/1000px-2015-03-18-w3c-f2f.jpg
# bblfish !meme rel="nose follower" [ https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/thumb/2/25/2015-03-18-w3c-f2f.jpg/1000px-2015-03-18-w3c-f2f.jpg ]
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# ben_thatmustbeme So apparently I liked at the wrong schedule. I have an hour wait for my train now
# ben_thatmustbeme Looked