#social 2015-03-18

2015-03-18 UTC
jasnell, almereyda, almereyda_, bengo, the_frey, Arnaud and Arnaud1 joined the channel
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Arnaud1
trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot
is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
ACTION: harry to set-up a github for AS2.0 testing (whatever that ends up being, we'll need a github!) [1]
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RRSAgent
ACTION: pelf to Publish AS2.0 data on one's own website [2]
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RRSAgent
ACTION: eprodom to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those exmaples [3]
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RRSAgent
ACTION: eprodrom to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those examples [4]
tantek, peacekeeper, timbl, harry, bengo, SimonTennant, akuckartz and bblfish joined the channel
elf-pavlik joined the channel
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SimonTennant, the_frey, elf-pavlik, Augier and bblfish joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
bblfish, moin
the_frey, bblfish, pfefferle and timbl joined the channel
melvin, harry, danbri1 and Augier joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
good morning, could someone check with me talky ~10min before we start?
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elf-pavlik
cwebber2, Tsyesika did you have chance to take a look at
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elf-pavlik
action-42
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trackbot
is looking up action-42.
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trackbot
action-42 -- Pavlik elf to MediaObject - gather options for its social syntax on a wiki page -- due 2015-03-10 -- OPEN
bblfish, pfefferle and fjh joined the channel
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wseltzer
waves from up-river for the morning
Arnaud joined the channel
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mattl
I'll be remote for most of today, I have a few other things going on too...
fjh joined the channel
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rhiaro
, tantek and aaronpk are running late...
fjh_ joined the channel
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Arnaud
lots of people seem to be late this morning, we're just bout 6 in the room
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fjh
fjh waves
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elf-pavlik
sandro, can we try really fast https://meet.jitsi.org/socialweb instead of talky?
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elf-pavlik
my connection looks ok but getting pretty bad audio/video on talky http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4223150928
bblfish joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
were up to 10 people. at what point do we call it a quarum?
Arnaud1 and jaywink joined the channel
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cwebber2
highly recommend it
Arnaud joined the channel
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bblfish
ah I tried the teleconf password but could not connect to the telephone
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bblfish
I get "this password is not valid"
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bblfish
I tried the teleconf password but could not connect to the telephone
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Arnaud
ah hold on henry
AdamB joined the channel
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Arnaud
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
Zakim joined the channel
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 18 March 2015
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elf-pavlik
bblfish can you hear me?
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AdamB
don't think we've dialed in yet
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fjh
zakim, code?
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Zakim
sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is
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Arnaud
zakim, this is socl
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Zakim
sorry, Arnaud, I do not see a conference named 'socl' in progress or scheduled at this time
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bblfish
I tried the teleconf password but could not connect to the telephone
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bblfish
I get "this password is not valid"
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Arnaud
yeah, hold on
SimonTennant1 joined the channel
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bblfish
can people in the room hear us?
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elf-pavlik
i can hear bblfish
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elf-pavlik
maybe laptop speaker muted?
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elf-pavlik
i can also hear room pretty well
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bblfish
nice placement of cameras
harry joined the channel
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bblfish
yes, we can hear room much better as yesterday
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harry
Zakim, space for 5 for 600 minutes?
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Zakim
ok, harry; conference Team_(social)13:22Z scheduled with code 7625 (SOCL) for 600 minutes until 2322Z
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harry
ok, the bridge should be open, dial in elf and henry!
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Zakim
Team_(social)13:22Z has now started
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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fjh
zakim, ipcaller is me
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Zakim
+fjh; got it
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elf-pavlik
room looks and sounds good!
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bblfish
the nice thing about being here is that I could just lie down on a bed and still participate
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elf-pavlik
no, that audio worked well!
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elf-pavlik
please unmute it back :D
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bblfish
yes, you have been muted
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Zakim
Team_(social)13:22Z has ended
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Zakim
Attendees were fjh
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bblfish
me and elf can have a parallel meeting in the meantime
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elf-pavlik
bblfish i can hear you... will try to dial in Zakim for voice
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bblfish
I could hear the room for a second
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Zakim
Team_(social)13:22Z has now started
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Zakim
+??P13
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, ??P13 is me
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Zakim
+elf-pavlik; got it
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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fjh
zakim, ipcaller is me
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Zakim
+fjh; got it
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fjh
will have to drop off after a short bit
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Zakim
+confroom
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Arnaud
ok, we're on the bridge now
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fjh
hi, can hear you
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harry
Zakim should be ready!
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fjh
thanks
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Zakim
-elf-pavlik
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Zakim
+bblfish
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elf-pavlik
sandro i think mic in other laptop worked much better!
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elf-pavlik
we could hear it loud and clear before
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Zakim
-bblfish
tilgovi joined the channel
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bblfish
the phone is working
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elf-pavlik
bblfish do you think audio worked much better on other laptop?
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bblfish
now we can hear someone type very heavily
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harry
my proposal is that we focus on IG and WG relationship until the rest of the crew shows up
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elf-pavlik
one with camere pointing on sandro
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bigbluehat
scribenick
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bigbluehat
scribenick bigbluehat
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bblfish
I did not realise the audio had been moved, but there is a lot of background noise on talky.io
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Arnaud
scribenick: bigbluehat
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bblfish
Sandro are we hearing you type?
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Arnaud
topic: User stories
AnnB joined the channel
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elf-pavlik
sandro any chance we can switch audio back to the other laptop?
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bblfish
in talky
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bigbluehat
harry: will the interest group be able to help us understand add them to our API requirements
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bigbluehat
s/them/the IG user stories/
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elf-pavlik
and now mute the other ?
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elf-pavlik
can you mute one pointing at harry ?
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Zakim
+bblfish
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elf-pavlik
PERFECT!
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bblfish
ok back on telephone, can hear better
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elf-pavlik
bblfish sound on talky back hi quality
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bblfish
ah ok. let me try again.
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bigbluehat
AnnB: I think what I'm hearing is that your asking the IG to clarify their user stories
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Zakim
-bblfish
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bigbluehat
there's a larger group that have several +1's
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bigbluehat
there are many with minor objections
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bigbluehat
AnnB: there are 19 or so about which there is consensus
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bigbluehat
AnnB: the IG can work on clarifying the ones about which there is some debate
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harry
PROPOSAL: We start with the user-stories with complete consensus against all the current API candidates, and then the IG goes to get clarity on the rest. If clarity is gained, then the IG can propose them to the WG.
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bigbluehat
ben_thatmustbeme: starting with just the top 7 is too limited
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bigbluehat
sandro: the idea is that the IG will take the lead in clarifying the user stories?
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bigbluehat
AnnB: the IG will need to involve the WG members in the clarification process
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bigbluehat
AnnB: get the people who care about it, clarify it, "sandro thinks this" "randall thinks that" and then document it
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bigbluehat
harry: if it's a very clearly defined task, it will get more involvement from the WG
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bigbluehat
harry: and once that's complete, it should be clearer what how the WG can proceed with testing
melvster1 joined the channel
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
tantek joined the channel
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Arnaud
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
bblfish can't hear you
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elf-pavlik
AnnB, let's set date next week for Use Case TF call?
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Arnaud
you're on the phone, aren't you?
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bblfish
can you tell us more about what you are doing at the IG?
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Arnaud
henry?
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elf-pavlik
why mute?
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bigbluehat
still can't hear you bblfish can you post here?
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tantek
good morning #social
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ben_thatmustbeme
bblfish are you on zakim or trying to use talky
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harry
Zakim, unmute bblfish
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Zakim
sorry, harry, I do not know which phone connection belongs to bblfish
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elf-pavlik
bblfish mute on talky ?
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: fjh, confroom
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Zakim
+bblfish
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bigbluehat
AnnB: the group started collecting user scenarios
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bigbluehat
...everyone was supposed to transfer them to a common template
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bigbluehat
...a lot of content never got transered
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/transered/transfered/
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bigbluehat
...which started the WG working on "tweet form" use cases
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bigbluehat
...there is a task force looking at architecture
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bigbluehat
...and something else?
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bigbluehat
...there was an earlier workshop that included a block diagram
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bigbluehat
harry: it was an advisory board task force
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bigbluehat
...we do have a diagram that could be the basis of an architecture description
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bigbluehat
...there will be a lot of vocabularies
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bigbluehat
...that will have small but important user communities
eprodrom joined the channel
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
...that should still be supported by the vocabulary task force work
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
...asparagus farmers market use case
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tantek
I'm skeptical of use of any edge case use case (farmers / asparagus) to drive anything in the WG
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bigbluehat
eprodrom: is the social IG tasked with looking at other parts of the social world that the W3C should be looking to charter WGs for
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bigbluehat
AnnB: the IG is looking into that
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bigbluehat
harry: that may be being addressed more in the future
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bblfish
I am in favor of those use cases: not that we have to implement them, but a protocol that can be shown to implement them is a better protocol
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bigbluehat
eprodrom: I would be concerned that the IG would spend time back filling what the WG has already done
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bigbluehat
AnnB: I agree
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bblfish
I quite skeptical and a few others are too about the need for a federation protocol.
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tantek
I am in favor of focusing majority of our time on discussing common consumer / user use-cases.
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bigbluehat
eprodrom: looking at parts of the diagram, and filling in what's missing would be best
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bigbluehat
AnnB: of the 90 use cases, many of them mentioned missing or unclear information
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tantek
In general I applaud skepticism about the need for any particular new protocol or format.
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bblfish
good idea by AnnB
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bigbluehat
...someone mentioned that we could pull those out and work through those concerns
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bigbluehat
...which would be helpful
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bblfish
I'll be happy to participate, and this seems like a good role for the CG
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bigbluehat
tantek: a lot of the feedback was that some of them were duplicates
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bigbluehat
AnnB: goal is to get through the 50 or so about which there were questions
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
tantek: I'd like to see definitions that include statements of what's in use today to accomplish things
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elf-pavlik
simple diagram on how IG could coordinate various CGs working on *domain specific* vocabulary requirements http://awesomescreenshot.com/0cc4noy4da
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bigbluehat
tantek: ideally with links to the tools that are being used to accomplish those things today
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bigbluehat
tantek: if we can solve other edge cases, even better...but let's start with what's being done today
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
Arnaud: the people who proposed the stories should have the burden of documenting them in that way
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Arnaud
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
klaranet joined the channel
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, bblfish on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
sandro: AnnB asked what would be helpful for the IG to do
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bigbluehat
...what I think would be really really helpful would be to get other people interested and helping
deiu joined the channel
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
AnnB: I don't think there are many
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bigbluehat
...not that have their own internally crafted technology
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bigbluehat
or sharepoint, or yammer, or jive, or IBM connections
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bigbluehat
harry: thoughtworks mentioned that they also build internal social networks for enterprise
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
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harry
there's also VMWare, Socialcast, SAP Jam, SugarCRM, Jive, Atlassian, Yammer, Sharepoint
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bigbluehat
AnnB: we've tried IBM connections. it'd be interesting to know what other enterprises use IBM connections, etc.
klaranet joined the channel
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bigbluehat
sandro: does this IG need W3C invited access?
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bigbluehat
harry: yes.
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bigbluehat
AnnB: I'd love it if there were more big companies represented in the IG
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bblfish
I'd love to help big companies do this
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
sandro: let's do a lot more outreach
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sandro
s/let's/we need (from the IG)/
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bigbluehat
eprodrom: the user stories that we have from the IG are specific to the API. there are many more user stories addressing in the social space
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bigbluehat
...there are not yet federation user stories for example
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bigbluehat
...there are a lot more stories needed in this space
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bblfish
I am not sure how you distinguish social apis and federated apis
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Arnaud
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
...the asparagus one came up...it's interesting...but that's not one we thought we could handle in this version of the API...or that we wanted to really attack
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elf-pavlik
we also don't have stories for *querying* social data
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harry
btw, I'm going to clarify the federation piece real quick
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bigbluehat
bblfish: there's always going to be one part that's completely new...we want something that works across silos
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bigbluehat
...this is why you won't find a lot of systems doing this...because they're always thinking internally
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bigbluehat
...it's really very uninteresting
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tantek
q+ to mention social web software that works across silos
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Zakim
sees harry, tantek on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees harry, tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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harry
I think we have agreement here
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bigbluehat
...you have to be about the size of an enterprise before it becomes interesting
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harry
I think EvanP used to have a start-up that did this sort of thing, i.e. status.net
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bigbluehat
eprodrom: are you serious? there's a lot of these...yammer, etc.
melvster joined the channel
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bigbluehat
...it doesn't make since to say we're only building this for distributed social networks
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bigbluehat
bblfish: there are a lot of faux social networks
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harry
That being said, we do agree on distribution is a good thing, but it's not a trivial problem
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bigbluehat
...that the data gets split around
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harry
I'll explain the federation next
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bigbluehat
...in issue-19...
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bigbluehat
...there is an organization that works with a lot of other organizations
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harry
bblfish, could you get to your point?
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harry
like, do you have a proposal?
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bigbluehat
...they're a lightweight company that uses 60 different tools that are not interoperable with the data fragmented about the place
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bigbluehat
...the point is that if we only look at what exists, we're only going to duplicate the problem
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bigbluehat
...the pain the social networking people are feeling
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bigbluehat
...they're going to have to heal the fragmentation these people are feeling
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harry
I agree that looking at only existing solutions is not enough, but I'm worried that a focus on non-existent solutions may not be super-productive.
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aaronpk
can we cut down on the monologues today?
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bigbluehat
...we need to allow these things to tie these things together
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harry
At least at this stage in the WG.
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sandro
+1 aaronpk
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bigbluehat
...tantek was saying I want these stories to be about things that exist
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Arnaud
ack harry
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Zakim
sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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sandro
PROPOSED: all speaking turns limited to 1 minute
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bigbluehat
...if we do that, we only solve problems we know about
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eprodrom
I'm going to take a walk for a minute
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bigbluehat
harry: when we were chartering this working group the main reason was the open social crud
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bigbluehat
...we do think it's important to have common interfaces
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bigbluehat
...the reason why we separated this...while a lot of the distributed stories that include authentication, etc. actually get very difficult
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bigbluehat
...pubsubhubbub and others have proven that they're harder problems to solve
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bigbluehat
...the social wg may not be able to solve these problems in one go
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bigbluehat
...happy to have the IG look at these other areas
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bigbluehat
...and have the WG focus on the current ones
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bblfish
thanks harry for the context for why the distinction was made
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Arnaud
ack tantek
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Zakim
tantek, you wanted to mention social web software that works across silos
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
AnnB: to be clear, I support exploring these, but not sure I have the technical skills to lead that
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AnnB
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, AnnB on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
tantek: I wanted to +1 eprodrom's statement that there are many other social networks in usage in many places
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bigbluehat
...if you don't think something exist, ask
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AnnB
q-
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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harry
So I'm going to point out why federation is hard:
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harry
1) Authentication
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harry
2) Groups and Access Control
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harry
3) Queuing/re-ordering/timing
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harry
4) Push/pull architectures
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bigbluehat
...if you really don't think something exists, rather than claiming something exists...there are experts here in many other fields...does anyone (of them) know about X, Y, or Z?
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harry
5) overload of small servers
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bigbluehat
...we don't actually have proof of non-existence
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harry
(i.e. scalability)
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bigbluehat
...bblfish claimed that there is no social network software that doesn't work across silos
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harry
Hisotically this has really caused problems for Salmon Protocol, Pubsubhububub, resulting in Magic Sigs, etc.
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AnnB
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, AnnB on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
...that's false, the indieweb work does work across sites and communicates with the silos
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bigbluehat
...pretty much all of these implementations support POSSE to federate to the silos
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harry
I don't believe the LDP has solved these in any way that at least I've seen in a live demo or with scalability, although I know they are working on it.
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bblfish
yes, though I was not interested in communicating with silos, but linking the silos together
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bigbluehat
...or use backfeed...taking the interactions on the silos, bringing them back into the local sites
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harry
I also know the IndieWeb community has made progress (i.e. what Tantek) has said
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bblfish
so that there would be no more silos
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bigbluehat
s/local/personal
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elf-pavlik
can you mute the second laptop? first one had the best sound
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fjh
thanks tantek for clear explanation
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harry
I would love to know evan's take on this, as he has most experience in coding previous round of solutions
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: how's that?
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bigbluehat
...those are all provable and inspectable
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elf-pavlik
this one also sounds good
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Arnaud
ack AnnB
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
maybe even better :)
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk++ sandro++
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aaronpk
good! this is the logitech cam
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Loqi
aaronpk has 744 karma
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bigbluehat
AnnB: obviously my experience is in a huge company
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, harry on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
...I'm curious how many people are involved in the indieweb...how big of a community that is
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bigbluehat
tantek: you can measure by the IRC participation...or the number of peopled editing the wiki
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bigbluehat
...or deploying on their own sites
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harry
going to make a quick point on government users
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harry
who aren't here
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bigbluehat
...known or wordpress+ indieweb plugins
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bigbluehat
...or more custom things
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bigbluehat
...number in the thousands
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bblfish
pulled out my watch so that I know how long I take to talk
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bigbluehat
...it's part of why we're working to keep things as simple as possible
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bigbluehat
...to get thousands of deployments
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harry
please try to be a bit more concise
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, harry, bblfish on the speaker queue
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sandro
zakim has a feature time time speakers. we can set it to 1 minute... or 2 minutes....
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bigbluehat
AnnB: what are some of the other things going on in Europe, mid-sized companies, etc?
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harry
let's set to 3 minutes
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Arnaud
ack harry
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, bblfish on the speaker queue
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harry
elf has done great work getting diaspora involved
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bigbluehat
tantek: there's a lot of these groups not represented
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AdamB
3 minutes / topic?
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Loqi
sandro has 8 karma
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bigbluehat
AnnB: like all of China
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sandro
zakim, give speakers 3 minutes
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Zakim
ok, sandro
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bigbluehat
tantek: there are lots of diaspora users in europe
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harry
W3C's efforts by the European Commission
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sandro
ack harry
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, bblfish on the speaker queue
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sandro
(it might only work for people who were on the queue)
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bigbluehat
harry: there are lots of European projects funded by groups within the EU
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bigbluehat
...all expect for their future government efforts they want better social specifications
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bigbluehat
...they're not coders
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Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to harry
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bigbluehat
...we do have a lot of European governments that are members
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bigbluehat
AnnB: why aren't they involved?
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bigbluehat
harry: I tell them we don't have code yet...and the timing is bad for them
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eprodrom
q-
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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bigbluehat
...I have invited some of them as invited experts
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elf-pavlik
+1 change the time
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bigbluehat
AnnB: well let's change the time
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Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to harry
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AdamB
zakim++ on keeping us on task !
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Loqi
zakim has 1 karma
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bigbluehat
harry: point is that another group growing in size is governments local and otherwise
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tantek
lol Zakim
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AnnB
q+
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Zakim
sees bblfish, AnnB on the speaker queue
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Zakim
gives 60 second speaker warning to harry
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Arnaud
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees AnnB on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees AnnB on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...there are more people watching than it appears
#
harry
UK govt Innovation advisors Nesta, Finland, Iceland, Spain (Podemos), all expect to use some version of the API and ActivityStreams at some point
#
harry
or buy a solution from some vendor :)
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: some of these groups are not build software they're tying them together
#
harry
W3C funding for this project is not from membership dues but from European Commission, http://dcentproject.eu/
#
bigbluehat
...what we want to remove are silos completely
#
harry
bblfish, this is off point
#
bigbluehat
...one social web
#
tantek
Known is probably the best software to use to try out IndieWeb features / formats / protocols
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to bblfish
#
bigbluehat
...there's know center
#
harry
I don't think anyone really disagrees but the information content is quite low
#
bigbluehat
...players of all size can communicate without any henderance
#
tantek
q+ to be clear that IndieWeb software is not dependent on silos, it works peer to peer
#
Zakim
sees AnnB, tantek on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack AnnB
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
AdamB
bblfish++ for being succinct :)
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Loqi
bblfish has 5 karma
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: in our dreams we would get rid of silos...but it's a good goal
#
harry
People in Europe do find the 7:00 PM time hard and 6:00 PM time CET
#
tantek
q+ to also note that goal should be get rid of YOUR use of silos, not get rid of silos.
#
Zakim
sees tantek, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...harry was saying there were lots of players interested in these activities
#
elf-pavlik
AnnB++ meeting in Paris :)
#
Loqi
AnnB has 10 karma
#
bblfish
+1 for Paris
#
harry
We can the IG or WG meeting earlier if there's real desire.
#
bigbluehat
...perhaps we should have a meeting in Paris...would they come to a meeting?
#
bblfish
I can get people in Paris to come to a meeting
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to AnnB
#
bigbluehat
...if have of this team is going to be a meeting, maybe have a WG or IG meeting with them there
#
bigbluehat
harry: it is difficult to get people involved there...but we could get someone there
#
Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to AnnB
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: tantek are you there?
#
harry
+1 doing something
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I'm there...but pretty booked
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: I think it'd be a good time to engage people
#
harry
I will point out I will not likely be there unless some magical money appears
#
harry
but Wendy Seltzer can substitute
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: we'll talk about the meeting next
#
Zakim
gives 60 second speaker warning to AnnB
#
bigbluehat
...we started this discussion to discuss user stories
#
bigbluehat
...we mentioned that there are ones with some issues
#
bigbluehat
...and getting the stake holders together to clarify them
#
Zakim
gives 30 second speaker warning to AnnB
#
Arnaud
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to be clear that IndieWeb software is not dependent on silos, it works peer to peer and to also note that goal should be get rid of YOUR use of silos, not get
#
elf-pavlik
harry, can you publish a wishlist with what your *really* need to get to that meeting? (travel tickets, accomodation, etc.)
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
... rid of silos.
#
harry
I would need travel funding likely
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I agree with bblfish that we should not be dependant on silos
#
harry
weirdly enough the EC has travel funding but Rigo refuses to authorize my travel for no good reason quite often.
#
elf-pavlik
harry someone could donate tickets *in-kind*
#
harry
despite the fact that EC funding is precisely to support this effort
#
bblfish
cool, I need to look at the indie web protocols more that do this.
#
bigbluehat
...on the indieweb we use webmention to communicate with each other...rather than depending on silos
#
bigbluehat
...I don't think it's reasonable to try and get rid of silos
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to tantek
#
harry
ACTION: hhalpin to discuss with rigo travel budget to see if more funding can be found for a Paris event
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 1
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-51 - Discuss with rigo travel budget to see if more funding can be found for a paris event [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-25].
#
bigbluehat
...it makes us look laughable to propose that
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
harry
I always couch-surf, so no problem
#
bigbluehat
...if you want to get rid of silos, try and eliminate your use of silos...by whatever means you can
#
bblfish
yes not really trying to get "rid" of the silos, but more allow a technology that makes silos link into the web.
#
Loqi
harry has 6 karma
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
bblfish, take a look at webmention, thats basically how everything is done for federation
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: we're here at the W3C...looking at the list of members...including twitter, google, facebook
#
bigbluehat
...they're not looking for us to destroy their businesses
#
bigbluehat
...they're not involved here...which is fine
#
AdamB
what is the goal of this topic? are there more valuable things we can be talking about? just asking :)
#
bigbluehat
...we do have a social data standard that we're laying out
#
bigbluehat
...companies can and should use
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to eprodrom
#
bigbluehat
...we're working on an API that companies can and should use to communicate together
#
melvster
facebook was part of the social web XG, they were interested in adopting activity streams and opensocial ... back in the day
#
bigbluehat
...and a federation protocol that they could also us
#
Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to eprodrom
#
harry
melvster, that's not true
#
bigbluehat
...what I'm unhappy about is assuming a singular community...and ignoring the other tasks to serve a specific community
#
melvster
harry: it is, check the minutes
#
harry
David Recordon showed up for one phone call right as he got hired by Facebook
#
bigbluehat
...we do have a task to standardize social data
#
AnnB
sorry to say, harry is correct, melvster
#
harry
They never joined the XG
#
harry
He did one meeting and never came back
#
bigbluehat
...two: to standardize social APIs
#
Zakim
gives 60 second speaker warning to eprodrom
#
harry
He is now doing cloud work.
#
bigbluehat
...three: if we can manage to get a federation protocol started
#
melvster
oh ok, maybe not part of the xg, but on the telecon ... the other statement is correct
#
bigbluehat
...if we start with changing everything...it won't happen
#
bigbluehat
...if we start with smaller things, then we'll get farther
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
I think the way we have any chance of getting companies outside the WG to adopting standards is as simple / minimal standards as possible.
#
bigbluehat
...I don't want to undercut that
#
bigbluehat
harry: W3C has done outreach to Twitter, facebook, and Google
#
bigbluehat
...and some with Microsoft because of Yammer
#
bigbluehat
...Google was against open social
#
bigbluehat
...facebook has nothing to do with this group...they don't want this work at the W3C
#
bblfish
yes, agree that one does not change everything, one has to lay the foundation to make it easy to cover the innumerable use cases that will appear.
#
bigbluehat
...twitter is interested, but they don't have an open standards advocate
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to harry
#
bigbluehat
...they're continuing to watch as it evolves
#
harry
I just wanted people to know the state of outreach
#
bigbluehat
...companies have resourcing issues and don't have cycles to dedicate to standards
#
Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to harry
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
harry
We are doing outreach, we've done outreach to Weibo etc.
#
harry
We plan to do more
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: I completely agree one has to build something that can grow
#
bigbluehat
...we should acomodate growth in use cases
#
bigbluehat
...the linked data cloud should be taken into account
#
danbri1
wanders past, lurks a bit
#
AnnB
bblfish, you should join the IG
#
harry
speaking of API, let's move to API
#
bigbluehat
...that's another crowd of people that would be interested in our work
#
AnnB
hey! danbri1
#
AnnB
waving
#
harry
danbri1, if you have any ideas of what would be useful to Google do tell us, the question is re-occuring
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: let's move on
#
sandro
If they'd be interesting, bblfish, why wont they come to these meetings?
#
bigbluehat
...let's try and settle some dates and locations for the next meeting
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to bblfish
#
bigbluehat
...the logical next meeting would be 3 months from now
#
bblfish
sandro: will be interested to find out. Perhaps they were put off in one way or another
#
bigbluehat
...we got an invitation to participate in TPAC
#
Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
bigbluehat
...for scheduling purposes we should figure that out sooner than later
#
AdamB
TOPIC: Meetings
#
Zakim
gives 60 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
AdamB
i would suggest to do take advantage of tpac
#
sandro
s/sandro: will/sandro, will/
#
harry
TPAC is Sapporo the week before Halloween
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I propose we do meet at TPAC
#
bblfish
mhh, why is Zakim reducing my speaker time even when I am not speaking?
#
tantek
Proposal: we do meet at TPAC
#
rhiaro
wants excuse to go to Japan :(
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro
s/(/)
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: many of us are going to be at these meetings anyway
#
Zakim
gives 30 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
Zakim
tantek, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
#
bigbluehat
...there was discussion on the mailing list
#
tantek
queue=
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...there is an AC meeting in Paris
#
Zakim
gives 15 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
AnnB
I'm observing, bblfish, a new feature of Zakim ... once someone is ack'd.. Zakim starts a timer
#
harry
I discussed with W3C internally, there is some feeling that outreach and discussion with Asian members about the WG would be great.
#
Zakim
chimes: speaking time is up, bblfish
#
sandro
bblfish, zakim just watches the queue. When the queue's not used, it's wrong.
#
bigbluehat
...TPAC is in Japan in October
#
AnnB
it was doing that for me, too
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
I can only do Europe, till we get strong Online Identity in place and broadly recognized :)
#
tantek
PROPOSAL: meet at TPAC
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I want to see if we can get +1's for TPAC
#
AdamB
+1
#
AnnB
+1
#
ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro, i wish i could, but i would not be able to afford that
#
elf-pavlik
+0 can't go anyways
#
bigbluehat
TPAC is the last week of October...include Halloween in Japan
#
bblfish
ah that is far away
#
bigbluehat
s/include/including
#
harry
TPAC alternates between Europe, USA, and Asia
#
harry
likely
#
harry
So next year will be Europe, then back in USA
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: if you don't know TPAC is a cross-group meeting
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: there are WG meeting M-T, W is reserved for technical plenary
#
bigbluehat
...run as an un-conference even
#
bigbluehat
...on various topics
#
bigbluehat
...because there are many groups meeting, it's prone to cross polination
#
AnnB
s/a cross-group meeting/when most WGs hold their F2F meetings, to enable cross-fertilization/
#
harry
I think the unconference is at least partially tantek's idea
#
bigbluehat
...last year we had a meeting with the Annotation WG
#
harry
its' been very popular
#
bigbluehat
...I totally agree that it's a very valuable event
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
But it is also very expensive to go to Japan
#
tantek
harry yes the BarCamp day :)
#
elf-pavlik
AnnB not sure if meeting in Paris around AC Meeting didn't get any support?
#
Arnaud
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
harry: I think that's consensus on meeting at TPAC
#
bigbluehat
...I want to revisit the Paris thing
#
bigbluehat
...there will be a Future of the Web conference in Durham NC
#
AnnB
you know what, bblfish ... it's the same as going to Europe right now
#
bigbluehat
...if folks want to meet there
#
bblfish
yes, I agree it looks like the Paris meeting was not debated
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: meet at TPAC, Sapporo Japan 26-30 October
#
AnnB
close at st
#
bigbluehat
...being organized by shepazu
#
bigbluehat
...it's not an official W3C meeting
#
rhiaro
+1 Paris!
#
AnnB
at least
#
elf-pavlik
+1 Paris
#
AnnB
+1 Paris
#
bigbluehat
harry: what are the dates for the Future of the Web thing?
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to harry
#
harry
bigbluehat, ask Doug
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: for Paris, do we have a preference of day?
#
bigbluehat
tnx harry
#
harry
it's not been announced yet
#
bigbluehat
tantek: puts in a note to avoid conflicts with CSS
#
Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to harry
#
bigbluehat
...asking the AB not to meet at TPAC
#
bigbluehat
likely got that wrong
#
AnnB
Advisory Board
#
Zakim
gives 60 second speaker warning to harry
#
bigbluehat
s/AB/Advisory Board/
#
bigbluehat
tnx Arnaud
#
AnnB
me/ (or AnnBassetti or ArtBarstow ;-)
#
bigbluehat
tnx AnnB rather... :)
#
rhiaro
In May, there's an IWC in Germany 9/10th which is same week as AC meeting I think?
#
Zakim
gives 30 second speaker warning to harry
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: the AC meeting will be W-Th
#
Zakim
gives 15 second speaker warning to harry
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: one possibility is M-T
#
Zakim
chimes: speaking time is up, harry
#
harry
So for those new to the W3C, there's a BIG meeting called TPAC
#
harry
for the WGs
#
harry
and also a yearly meeting called the "AC meeting"
#
harry
Which is Advisory Committee
#
harry
which helps
#
harry
and meets
#
harry
twice a year.
#
harry
The TP meeting is also 'Technical Plenary'
#
harry
just background info
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: several participants are going to IWC in Germany
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees harry on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
harry: I think rather than doing an official face-to-face, we could just do an outreach
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: I think we should make time to bring a meeting to Europe
#
bigbluehat
harry: I would support a meeting in Europe...even if it's a just a single day
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: with a one day meeting, then folks from the US won't come
#
bigbluehat
...I'm interested for now to schedule a F2F
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: I propose a May 4th and 5th Paris F2F (a M&T)
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: May 4-5, in Paris
#
tantek
-1 conflict
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: elf-pavlik and bblfish have been on the phone for 2 days solid
#
AnnB
+1
#
harry
+0 (depends on rigo and travel funding)
#
Zakim
sees harry, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
harry
q- harry
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
we can help couchsurf in Paris!!!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
0 i won't be able to be there in person
#
harry
I would be happy to do outreach
#
ben_thatmustbeme
has twins due about that time
#
AdamB
how many chairs need to be present for that ?
#
aaronpk
-0 I won't be able to go since that's too close to my other plans
#
harry
to get Europeans there who are interested but not W3C members
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: it happens to be at an interesting point of time
#
sandro
-0 seems pretty soon
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish, no more dealines for demos!
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
you will be busy Ben!
#
elf-pavlik
just no discussions *unless* demo
#
harry
August never works in Europe
#
bigbluehat
...that would be the time of the demos
#
sandro
bblfish, that proposal for a deadline failed
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: plan was to have demos in the next 4 weeks for ones that exist
#
tantek
Counterproposal: Europe in July, adjacent to IndieWebCamp Edinburgh 7/25-26
#
eprodrom
+0
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: when were the implementations needed to be ready by?
#
sandro
evan: 0 abstain on May 4-5
#
bigbluehat
...that would be a good time to demo
#
Loqi
I added a countdown for 5/3 10:00pm (#5656)
#
harry
Let's do a proposal for July
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to bblfish
#
harry
and then see what date has more support
#
bblfish
I am also fine for July
#
rhiaro
I'm also fine for July, but elf-pavlik can't come to UK
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bblfish
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
-1 Edinburgh (I would not be able to get travel approval)
#
bigbluehat
tantek: we gave up on that. we have 3 candidates. new candidates need to show up with implementations that match user stories
#
Tsyesika
UK is easier for me than paris
#
elf-pavlik
-1 Edinburgh
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
tantek
+1 Edinburgh
#
Tsyesika
+1 edinburgh
#
harry
The festival is later in August
#
harry
i.e. not July
dret joined the channel
#
bigbluehat
rhiaro: the conflicting month in Edinburgh is August
#
eprodrom
-1 for planning a meeting until we know what we're planning for
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to bblfish
#
bigbluehat
...starts the 7th of August
#
harry
+0 (again, travel funding issues)
#
AnnB
yo, dret ... we're voting on the possibility of a WG meeting in Europe ...
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: 23rd-24th of July in Edinburgh
#
Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
bblfish
can one kill the Zakim?
#
elf-pavlik
looks like Paris had few more +1 ?
#
bigbluehat
harry: I'd be surprised if we can't get a room with the University of Edinburgh
#
Zakim
gives 60 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: there will be too many henry's around
#
bblfish
who is opinionated?
#
bigbluehat
rhiaro: elf-pavlik can't come to the UK
#
AnnB
either: tangent to W3C meeting in Paris May 4-5 OR with IndieWebCamp Edinburgh 7/25-26
#
bigbluehat
...so that's still a problem
#
Zakim
gives 30 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
harry
eprodrom, I agree that it's a bit silly to plan for meetings without agenda but some kind of regular heartbeat is needed.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I cannot hear half the things people are saying honestly
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and I'm in the room
#
Zakim
gives 15 second speaker warning to bblfish
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: if we're not doing this thing in Paris, I would vote to do a 3 day meeting next time
#
eprodrom
harry: agreed, but I'd like to have a goal
#
Zakim
chimes: speaking time is up, bblfish
#
bigbluehat
...these f2f's are very valuable...at least 2.5 days would be good
#
bigbluehat
...and help folks travel back
#
eprodrom
Like "federation protocol ready for editorial"
#
harry
eprodrom, I'm hoping the goal will be consensus on a first FPWD for the Social API
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: the sun doesn't set in Edinburgh in July...so we could do 3 full days in 2 days time
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
we could try to arrange stay and working space for everyone very near Paris - http://openchateau.org/
#
harry
The question for me is whether or not we can do all the work in between this meeting and then to map the
#
harry
use-cases to candidates and hash out most of the technical issues
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: it's important for us to meet. I would like us to have a particular goal for that meeting
#
bigbluehat
...harry mentioned having a FPWD ready
#
harry
A 1st FPWD of the API was my goal for *THIS* meeting
#
harry
but alas, it seems we now have 3
#
bigbluehat
...federation protocol draft
#
bigbluehat
...it'd be helpful to know what subject we'd be meeting about
#
harry
(thus my objection to user-stories, but I think as a methodology it makes sense)
#
Zakim
gives 2 minute speaker warning to eprodrom
#
bigbluehat
...May 4th & 5th is 6 weeks from now
#
bigbluehat
tantek: July is a better mid-point between now and TPAC
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
gives 90 second speaker warning to eprodrom
#
bblfish
+1 for July also
#
tantek
+1 for July
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek
+1 for July 22-24 range
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
gives 60 second speaker warning to eprodrom
#
AnnB
-1 July ( would not be able to get travel approval)
#
Zakim
gives 30 second speaker warning to eprodrom
#
Zakim
gives 15 second speaker warning to eprodrom
#
Zakim
chimes: speaking time is up, eprodrom
#
rhiaro
+1 July
#
sandro
zakim, stop timing speakers
#
Zakim
ok, sandro
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Edinburgh July 22-24 (adjacent to IndieWebCamp)
#
cwebber2
(my queue slot is not related to scheduling btw)
#
tantek
+1 Edinburgh July 22-24 or July 23-24
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud cwebber2 is on the queue
#
elf-pavlik
-0 can't go there untill we sort out solid Digital Identity system :S
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud and it's not scheduling related
#
Tsyesika
I think we should go somewhere elf to can get to
#
rhiaro
I agree Tsyesika
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: it's good that we've agreed on Japan in October
#
Loqi
I added a countdown for 10/17 8:00am (#5657)
#
bigbluehat
...but we should determine some dates for the inbetween meeting
#
tantek
Counter-proposal: don't meet between now and TPAC
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I'm OK if we don't do an in between meeting
#
eprodrom
+1
#
bblfish
I think July is a good idea
#
sandro
My french isn't great. Is http://openchateau.org/ viable for July 22-24?
#
harry
In Paris I can book Centre Pompidou
#
harry
even if I'm not there
#
bblfish
But people could also meet in Paris who are interested in specific topics. Eg. LDP groups
#
harry
They have a perfectly good meeting
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: I'm wondering if we should extend the phone calls by 30 minutes
#
bigbluehat
...I've done that with other groups and it's been helpful
#
bigbluehat
...it makes time for all the admin stuff we have to do at the beginning
#
harry
I have a lunch conflict if we extend 30 minutes
#
bblfish
+1 for 1h30 proposal by Arnaud
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I think most of the calls have completed on time
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: we respect the limit we have
#
elf-pavlik
we could look at securing all the place to stay and meet + food in Paris to reduce expense for participants
#
AdamB
q+
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, AdamB on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...it doesn't mean we couldn't use more time
#
harry
I would prefer we try to make the administrivia very quick.
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, AdamB, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I'm not sure most of those issues are worth synchronous time
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, AdamB, bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
sandro: what's the alternative to synchronous time?
#
bigbluehat
tantek: issues in tracker or IRC
#
bigbluehat
sandro: or email?
#
harry
Most produtive WGs I know eventually move to github
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: tracker is just there to say there is an issue
#
bigbluehat
...not to communicate over the issue
#
elf-pavlik
+1 github issues!
#
harry
W3C has its own repo as well
#
bigbluehat
sandro: we could use github issues
#
Arnaud
ack AdamB
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, bblfish, harry on the speaker queue
#
harry
It works well and we can automagically archive to the email list
#
bigbluehat
cwebber2: it does seem that we get to some of the topics at the end
#
bigbluehat
...maybe 15 minutes?
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, harry on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...15 minutes more on the call
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: I'm happy with an hour and 30 minutes
#
bigbluehat
...it does bring up the where are we discussing things discussion
#
Arnaud
ack harry
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...it's not clear where things can be discussed
#
bigbluehat
harry: recently everything has a tracker and or a GitHub issue tracker
#
bigbluehat
...I'm happy with an extra 15 minutes
#
bigbluehat
...but not 30
#
elf-pavlik
PROPOSAL: we use github repo for each *product* hosted in single organization e.g. https://github.com/w3c-social
#
AdamB
i agree with the underlying theme of what Arnaud stated, it seems like the topics that are holding up making forward progress tend to happen at the end of the meeting. i understand the lack of desire to be on a 90 minute meeting. what about trying out an extra 15 minutes for a few weeks and then see how it is working?
#
bigbluehat
...concerning too many channels, every WG I know uses wiki, tracker, somtimes github
#
bigbluehat
...people seem to do fine
#
bigbluehat
s/somtimes/sometimes/
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: let's forget the meeting length extension for now
#
RRSAgent
records action 2
#
harry
ACTION: Email re github issues
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot
Error finding 'Email'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
bigbluehat
...it's 10:45...I think we should break
#
harry
ACTION: hhalpin to discuss re github
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 3
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-52 - Discuss re github [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-25].
#
bblfish
yes, harry people use that, but what is the issue database we should use?
#
trackbot
Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, I don't blame you.'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
#
tantek
trackbot, I don't blame you.
#
bigbluehat
cwebber2: my topic may not be good before a short break
#
Arnaud
ack cwebber2
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
harry
In general we'd migrate off tracker and move to git/hg
#
bigbluehat
...it's not clear what's happening after this other than discussing API or federation
#
harry
that's what most produtive WGs I see eventually do
#
bigbluehat
...my main question may or may not be trying to address an elephant in the room
#
bigbluehat
...it seems to me that some of the directions over the last couple days
#
harry
Again, the authorized channels for discussion is IRC, email, wiki as well as a tracker/git/hg
#
bigbluehat
...is "don't discuss the technical direction; talk about the user stories"
#
bblfish
I mean what github tracker is one meant to use for general discussions? it seems like the AS2.0 one is ok for issues on AS2.0 but not on say issues on Protocol, since that has not got a git repo.
#
harry
+1 technical discussions of the APIs in our next session
#
bigbluehat
...at the end of yesterday I began to get very worried that we don't have an undertanding
#
bigbluehat
...there's a rift that AS is a way overly technical direction
#
bigbluehat
...and I'm concerned about the rift
#
harry
We basically associate tracker only to meta-issues, and all deliverable-specific issues go to github
#
harry
seems to work well
#
bigbluehat
...we explicitly don't have technical user stories
#
bigbluehat
...and I'm concerned that's going to be insufficient
#
harry
General discussion is the usual IRC/mailing list/telecons
#
tantek
I fully expect to see implementaiton subsetting of ActivityStreams -- too much in it that is unnecessary for interop with popular consumers user stories.
#
bigbluehat
...and that we're not addressing the rift
#
tantek
s/implementaiton/implementation
#
bblfish
harry, the person talking is speaking about the group potentially splitting, and at the same moment you make a comment that everything is going fine
#
harry
People can always leave the WG, that's OK and normal, but we generally seek convergence
#
bigbluehat
...and that bringing this up is lobbing a grenade into the middle of the room
#
bigbluehat
...and that half the group is going to stand up a flip a table in response
#
bigbluehat
...I don't know what the solution is
#
bigbluehat
...and we haven't talked about it at all
#
elf-pavlik
cwebber2++
#
bigbluehat
...at the end of yesterday it sounded like the indieweb folks were not for implementing AS2.0
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 14 karma
#
sandro
+1000 cwebber2
#
fjh
have to drop, thanks for the good discussions
#
bigbluehat
...I hope we don't have a decision between this and the next meeting...where half of the group says this is completely against my technical direction...and I'm not going to implement it
#
elf-pavlik
ciao fjh
#
tantek
cwebber2++ for speaking his mind and politely so.
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: we're discuss this after the break
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 15 karma
#
fjh
thanks
#
bigbluehat
...we do need to discuss general direction
#
harry
I think it's more important to understand cross-cutting issues in API
#
bigbluehat
...we also have API and federation on the agenda
#
AdamB
wishes james was online to participate in this conversation
#
bigbluehat
sandro: Andre came willing to do some LDP demos
#
bigbluehat
tantek: another thing we asked people to do was cut short the federation conversation in the demos
#
sandro
s/Andre/Andrei/
#
bigbluehat
...maybe we should allow that to kick of the federation conversation
#
bblfish
how long is the break?
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: it's set. let's have a break. then we can go back to trying to convince each other
#
tantek
RESOLVED: we are not going to meet in Paris
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: what about people who are not meeting right now?
#
rhiaro
AnnB++
#
Loqi
AnnB has 11 karma
#
bigbluehat
...the people not here are likely the people who would meet in Paris
#
rhiaro
I would go to a meeting in Paris, official or unofficial
#
eprodrom
I would rather do Paris than Edinburgh
#
bigbluehat
harry: If there's not a strong objection from tantek I'm fine with folks meeting in Paris
#
eprodrom
May > July for me
#
harry
I will likely not make Paris but I would not object.
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: I think there are others in Europe who aren't able to vote because they're not currently here
#
tantek
wait til TPAC > July > May for me
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: I'd rather not meet in the summer, and just meet at TPAC
#
bblfish
I am happy to meet everyone in Paris in May
#
bigbluehat
rhiaro: why don't we do a doodle.com for May and July?
#
bblfish
we can make some space here, and just work on specific topics
#
eprodrom
+1 Doodle poll
#
bigbluehat
...and give people a few days to respond
#
tantek
+1 Doodle poll
#
bigbluehat
harry: as long as we agree by next meeting
#
ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro, its a bit hard to hear you from this side of the room
#
bblfish
10 minutes?
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: let's have a break for 10 minutes
#
elf-pavlik
We could do it together with some of the next http://semdev.org events in Europe
#
eprodrom
ACTION eprodrom to make doodle poll for f2f between now and TPAC
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-53 - Make doodle poll for f2f between now and tpac [on Evan Prodromou - due 2015-03-25].
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: re the agenda, I think it would make sense to discuss issue 17 (Identity, Agent, Person, Persona, Account etc.) *before* other issues, as it affects the other issues
#
melvster
building an API without identity as was tried with ostatus didnt work ... let's learn from that
#
elf-pavlik
AFAIK sandro and jasnell (and of course bblfish) have the best overview on that
#
elf-pavlik
IMO bblfish may have certain bias here ...
#
tantek
melvster - not sure what you mean by bias
#
melvster
tantek: it was a question, elf brought up bias
#
elf-pavlik
yesterday we already got hot exchange about /#me thing
#
tantek
in IndieWeb we found it was much simpler / more sensible to build micropub on top of IndieAuth / identity
#
tantek
in terms of user-flow
#
elf-pavlik
tantek, IndieAuth at this moment looks like pretty insecure since it doesn't require HTTPS or at least people don't use it...
#
elf-pavlik
also fkooman brought couple of issues with state parameter etc.
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: nope IndieAuth works with or without https - up to the indieweb site to choose
#
tantek
thus it builds upon user agency and preference
#
melvster
what I tried to tell fkooman
#
tantek
everyone listed on indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS level 3 support uses IndieAuth 100% with HTTPS
#
bblfish
WebID could possibly also work without HTTPS
#
bblfish
not secure, but well
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: rather than claim "doesn't require HTTPS or at least people don't use it" please instead *ASK* "can it work with HTTPS and who uses it?" since you don't know.
#
tantek
bblfish: that's my understanding of WebID as well
#
bblfish
for example one can use openID to verify a WebID
#
elf-pavlik
i know it can, just at least from fkooman's feedback most people don't use it or if they do have insecure https config on their servers
#
tantek
this is false: "most people don't use it or if they do have insecure https config on their servers"
#
elf-pavlik
i hope he'll write post about it soon
#
tantek
refuted by the citation I gave above
#
tantek
indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS level 3 support and higher
#
melvster
elf-pavlik: discussion on identity can be heated, that's because it's personal to so many people, that doesnt mean it's not worth discussing, at least as a building block for the other issues, imho a standards group should aim towards interoperability, whatever the individual viewpoint
#
tantek
don't care what someone claims - anyone can inspect the raw data
#
Zakim
-bblfish
#
elf-pavlik
i very much like approach IndieAuth takes, just it may need more in depth security review
#
melvster
why? facebook got to 100 million users with http
#
harry
everything is moving to HTTPS
#
elf-pavlik
melvster, we talk about client-server HTTPS or server-server HTTPS ?
tilgovi joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
client-server without HTTPS puts people using wireless hot-spots etc. under great risk for anything requiring authentication
#
elf-pavlik
server-server HTTPS different story but still I find benefits to use it there as well
#
elf-pavlik
just different degree of staying exposed to MitM attacks
jeff joined the channel
#
harry
exactly elf
#
tantek
elf-pavlik: ++securityreview!
#
tantek
I've started added security review questions and such for exactly that reason
#
cwebber2
let's embed pgp authentication into the spec, it's the only solution we have to bring real security for our users ;)
#
cwebber2
#obvioustroll
#
mattl
cwebber2++
#
Loqi
cwebber2 has 16 karma
#
bigbluehat
do I need to scribenick again?
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: we should agree on what we want to use the time for.
#
bigbluehat
...lunch is coming to us today
#
bigbluehat
...we have the afternoon up until about 5:30
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...we need to talk about federation
#
bigbluehat
...we should at least touch on the subject
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...we have at least 1 demo
#
bigbluehat
Andrei says 5
#
bigbluehat
tantek: are they related to user stories
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
deiu
waves
#
bigbluehat
s/Andrei/deiu
#
elf-pavlik
hi deiu
#
bigbluehat
waves back
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: I'd like to do federation, demos of LDP, and social API criteria?
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: before the end of the day...split between them in some way
#
elf-pavlik
deiu, maybe later you would have some tips on how LDP deals with 'MediaObjects' https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: can we address federation protocol strategy for the next hour?
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: that's reasonable
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: sounds good
#
bigbluehat
...the way that our charter has been layed out is that we'd be taking a staged approach
#
bigbluehat
...syntax
#
bigbluehat
...federation protocol
#
bigbluehat
..."if we manage to make it work...it may only be a note" -- referencing the charter
#
deiu
will take a look
#
Zakim
+bblfish
#
bigbluehat
...it's important for us to delivery something, but we do have some waivering out on the fed protocol
#
elf-pavlik
or API *could* solve federation as well...
#
bigbluehat
...we've talked before about syntax informing API which would in turn inform the federation protocol
#
bigbluehat
...if we continue with that strategy, then I think the next steps are to work on the API
#
bigbluehat
...and let that inform federation
#
bigbluehat
...if we have 3 candidates, we should at least sketch out how federation would look on each of those protocols
#
bigbluehat
...because the selection of the API will flow into the federation choices
#
bigbluehat
...I'd like to see how things might work with pump.io
#
bigbluehat
...I'd assume WebMention for micropub
#
cwebber2
eprodrom++ re: looking at what federation would look like following that api
#
Loqi
eprodrom has 6 karma
#
bigbluehat
...and what if any system might exist for an LDP strategy
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
....this is coming up at 11:20, and I don't think they need to be held to a high standard because of time...but I think it's a good place to start
#
bigbluehat
sandro: I'm trying to determine the distinction between the API and the federation protocol
#
bigbluehat
...is it about relationship of the user to the service providing the API?
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: I think when we talk about federation it's about security bounderies
#
bigbluehat
...I can't log in to aaronpk's site
#
bigbluehat
...but I can publish to my own site
#
tantek
q+ to note that in IndieWeb, there was a natural split between work on federation protocol (Webmention, Vouch), and API (Micropub), and it turned out federation was easier to do first (before API)
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...and I can send a notification to aaronpk or Boeing
#
bigbluehat
...and they can choose to do something with it
#
aaronpk
s/aaronpk's site/aaronpk's site and post there
#
bigbluehat
...it then in turn chooses to pluck a feed in a pull fashion
#
bigbluehat
tnx aaronpk
#
elf-pavlik
my-frontend<->my-backend<->other-backend<->my-frontend vs. my-frontend<->my-backend || other-backend <->other-backend
#
bigbluehat
...I think of the API as a client to server protocol and federation as a server-to-server protocol
#
aaronpk
(since evanpro can actually log in to my site and see content i've shared with him privately)
#
bigbluehat
...I believe micropub and webmention are client-to-server then server-to-server
#
bigbluehat
sandro: LDP has explored both. deiu demo will hopefully cover some of that
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: there's nothing in LDP that precludes it syndicating it out elsewhere, correct?
plh joined the channel
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: correct.
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: if I publish to my site, and then having that be syndicated out to other peoples inboxes is entirely possible, right?
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: right.
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack tantek
#
Zakim
tantek, you wanted to note that in IndieWeb, there was a natural split between work on federation protocol (Webmention, Vouch), and API (Micropub), and it turned out federation was
#
Zakim
... easier to do first (before API)
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
tantek: sandro asked about the distinction between API and federation
#
bigbluehat
...some of it can be architectural
#
bigbluehat
...in the indieweb community it emerged
#
bigbluehat
...from what was being built
#
bigbluehat
...the federation protocols ended up being really really simple
#
bigbluehat
...webmention is a simplified version of pingback
#
bigbluehat
...there are other APIs that also need auth
#
AnnB
Andrei Sambra = deiu
#
AnnB
on W3C staff
#
bigbluehat
Arnaud: do you agree with eprodrom definition of API and federation?
#
bigbluehat
tantek: I'm not sure about that.
#
bigbluehat
...some of the demos that you saw yesterday was server-to-server
#
bigbluehat
...servers talking to servers
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: yes. they are web servers talking to web servers
#
elf-pavlik
webmention also works my-frontend <-> other-backend e.g. input on https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/03/17/4/w3c
#
bigbluehat
tantek: server as user agent
#
bigbluehat
aaronpk: I don't think client-server vs. server-server is a good definition
#
bigbluehat
sandro: I think it's about trust boundries
#
bigbluehat
AnnB: in our case, when suppliers begin adding social features to their tools
#
elf-pavlik
both server and client can send web mention to my understanding
#
bigbluehat
...then we'd like to federate that into our social tools
#
bigbluehat
...we don't have control over too much
#
bigbluehat
sandro: you don't clearly have ownership over everything, but you want it to cross bounderies
#
elf-pavlik
just as both clent and servers can use LDP
#
bigbluehat
tantek: that's a great point. we have this same problem in the indieweb
#
sandro
"federation crosses control boundaries"
#
bigbluehat
...one is to silos, and one is peer-to-peer
#
bigbluehat
...with the silos its a bunch of "snow flake" APIs
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
tilgovi: are you trying to make a distinction that they're all different? or are they user-to-user vs. user-to-server?
#
bigbluehat
tantek: we have both.
#
bigbluehat
...we have POSSE
#
bigbluehat
...and we have on that pulls from the silos
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
aaronpk: the term is related to every silo thinking their service is special
#
bigbluehat
tilgovi: the answer is that every API is different, then.
#
elf-pavlik
webmention ~= pingback
#
bigbluehat
tantek: with peer-to-peer API there is one API: WebMention (and sometimes the Vouch extension of that)
#
bigbluehat
...and in the other case, we use POSSE
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: in networking terms, we'd call that using a bridge
#
bigbluehat
tantek: right. we're bridging to support federation
#
bret
Zakim, who is on the phone?
#
Zakim
On the phone I see confroom, bblfish
#
bigbluehat
...we put perma shortlinks into the body of the copy to follow your nose back to the original
#
bigbluehat
...when using POSSE
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
eprodrom: looking at broader federation systems...
#
bblfish
q+ how can one standardise snowflakes?
#
Zakim
bblfish, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
bblfish
qhow can one standardise snowflakes?
#
bigbluehat
...in email, the user connects to their server using POP, IMAP, Exchange, etc.
#
Zakim
+??P31
#
bblfish
q how can one standardise snowflakes?
#
bigbluehat
...servers talk to each other using SMTP
#
bblfish
q: how can one standardise snowflakes?
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...there is that separation between the two
#
bret
Zakim, ??P31 is me
#
Zakim
+bret; got it
#
tantek
bblfish: we typically don't want to because snowflake APIs are so horrible
#
bigbluehat
...XMPP actually names them c2s and s2s
#
bret
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
bret should now be muted
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
bigbluehat
...they separate, but very similar protocols
#
bigbluehat
bblfish: in the standards there's a snow flake federation that is probably un-standardizable
#
tantek
we have a better chance of asking silos to implement simple standard APIs *in addition* to their snowflakes
#
bigbluehat
...so we can't really look at that
#
bigbluehat
...a number of the other protocols are server-to-server