2015-03-31 UTC
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# 16:54 rhiaro will be maybe on irc, not on call today, on a train with patchy signal # 16:54 AnnB hmm .. what's the command to get the links for wiki and log to show up ? is that the "topic"? # 16:55 AnnB (I see a message saying "no topic set") # 16:55 cwebber2 rhiaro: did you see Tsyesika's email to the list about feedback on the activitypump spec stuff? would love to see your comments on it also # 16:56 rhiaro been very gradually making my way back to Edinburgh from US, so not back on top of work yet # 16:56 rhiaro On the last leg right now, home in a couple of hours :) eprodrom joined the channel
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# 16:57 rhiaro I've just been bouncing around London really. Many London legs. # 16:58 AnnB will dial in shortly .. on another quick call jasnell, elf-pavlik and Zakim joined the channel
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# 16:59 Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute # 16:59 cwebber2 eprodrom: oh, was pump.io originally called "activitypump"? # 17:00 Zakim ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 17:00 Zakim On the phone I see jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud # 17:00 Zakim saw 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, elf-pavlik # 17:02 eprodrom Zakim, aacc is me # 17:02 Zakim sees on the phone: jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), +33.6.43.93.aabb, eprodrom # 17:03 eprodrom Arnaud: I'd like to volunteer to scribe # 17:03 eprodrom It's been a long time since I scribed # 17:04 eprodrom scribenick eprodrom # 17:04 eprodrom scribenick: eprodrom # 17:04 cwebber2 I'll just dial in, as soon as my phone gets reception # 17:04 eprodrom This time it's personal # 17:04 tantek elf-pavlik: the microformats embedding in JSON results is based on microdata embedding in JSON, which predates the JSON-LD work. perhaps JSON-LD also copied microdata in that respect. # 17:05 eprodrom Arnaud: minutes of 10 March are still missing # 17:05 tantek elf-pavlik: no need to chat later - that was my summary answer. thanks. # 17:05 eprodrom Arnaud: skip minutes of 10 March until updated by aaronpk # 17:05 tantek note, aaronpk offered regrets in advance for today's telcon # 17:05 Arnaud PROPOSED: Approval of Minutes of 24 March 2015 Teleconf # 17:05 eprodrom Arnaud: scribes should mark the topics to make it easier to add the minutes # 17:06 Arnaud RESOLVED: Approval of Minutes of 24 March 2015 Teleconf # 17:06 eprodrom Arnaud: We are also missing minutes from the F2F # 17:06 eprodrom There was a problem with the IRC logs, hhalpin was going to sort it out # 17:06 tantek do we at least have good IRC logs from the f2f? # 17:06 eprodrom Next teleconference 4/7 # 17:07 eprodrom Arnaud: Next F2F in Paris in May # 17:07 eprodrom Arnaud: Pending confirmation of location # 17:07 eprodrom Arnaud: hhalpin confirmed INRIA for F2F # 17:07 eprodrom Arnaud: new page for F2F meeting # 17:08 eprodrom Arnaud: please add yourself to the sections for the Paris F2F # 17:08 eprodrom Arnaud: there is also a link to hotels # 17:08 eprodrom W3C has negotiated a deal with the hotel # 17:08 eprodrom Arnaud: it's not the best deal, but it is available # 17:08 eprodrom Arnaud: breakfast is included. However, it is nonrefundable. # 17:09 eprodrom Arnaud: takes about 30 minutes including walking and Metro from hotel to INRIA. # 17:09 eprodrom Arnaud: Everyone will need to buy their own lunch. # 17:09 eprodrom Arnaud: we'll continue to organize on the wiki page to develop an agenda. # 17:10 rhiaro booked cheap but very long coach to Paris last night # 17:10 eprodrom TOPIC: Tracking of Actions and Issues # 17:10 eprodrom Arnaud: let's first look at the actions # 17:10 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, jasnell on the speaker queue # 17:11 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, jasnell, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:11 cwebber2 makes a TODO to stop using the actions as a personal TODO list # 17:11 tantek most of the open actions look like things raised / assigned by group / one person to another person - not personal to do # 17:11 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:11 eprodrom Arnaud: notes that using the issue tracker for a personal todo system is probably inappropriate but OK now # 17:12 eprodrom jasnell: We need ISSUE-14 to be closed, Harry Halpin needs to complete # 17:12 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next # 17:12 tantek I'll note that action-26 has some progress since jasnell merged my first pull request for fixes to microformats examples, and I'm working on more fixes. # 17:12 eprodrom jasnell: we're using a namespace that's not official # 17:12 eprodrom jasnell: We have had progress on action-26, microformats review # 17:12 eprodrom jasnell: action-29, outreach has happened, no need to leave this still open. # 17:13 eprodrom Arnaud: we can close action 29 # 17:13 eprodrom jasnell: I posted a notice to the mailing list about test suites # 17:13 trackbot issue-8 -- Test suite for activity streams 2.0 -- open # 17:13 tantek did I hear correctly that no one formerly from the open social org responded / decided to join Social Web WG? # 17:15 eprodrom eprodrom: I'd like to have a mechanism that does it automatically for different programming languages # 17:16 eprodrom jasnell: action 50 and 57 could be combined # 17:16 eprodrom eprodrom: are there automated example extraction tools? # 17:17 eprodrom Arnaud: elf-pavlik, can action 50 and 57 be combined # 17:17 eprodrom elf-pavlik: I will work with eprodrom to make the examples easier to use # 17:17 eprodrom elf-pavlik: there are some scripts for extracting the examples already # 17:18 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, jasnell on the speaker queue # 17:18 eprodrom Arnaud: we have a number of issues that have been raised that should be disposed of # 17:18 eprodrom TOPIC: Issues # 17:18 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: you're put down regrets for paris? too bad :( # 17:19 eprodrom Arnaud: elf-pavlik and jasnell have both proposed issues to cover # 17:19 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss formal process to open/close ISSUEs in W3C Tracker # 17:20 tantek q+ to prefer using github issues for any issues which are only about the AS spec. # 17:20 Zakim sees jasnell, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:20 eprodrom Arnaud: we have two issue trackers, Github and W3C # 17:20 eprodrom Arnaud: we should use Github for minor editorial issues, W3C for issues that should be decided by the WG # 17:20 tantek q+ to also note that I thought we left choice of issue tracking venue up to editor # 17:20 Zakim sees jasnell, tantek on the speaker queue # 17:21 eprodrom Arnaud: It's a heavier process, but official # 17:21 eprodrom jasnell: ISSUE 4, 7, 20, 23 could be safely closed # 17:22 eprodrom jasnell: implicit typing can be closed, until there's a proposal # 17:22 tantek why is there both an open action and issue on that? # 17:22 tantek wait I'm confused why are we discussion open vs. raised issues? # 17:22 eprodrom jasnell: pre-JSON-LD syntax is addressed in the spec, ISSUE-7 # 17:23 elf-pavlik q+ re: -1 on closing issues which don't have clear resulution *in notes* # 17:23 Zakim sees tantek, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 17:23 jasnell my apologies. I missed the part that we were focusing on raised # 17:23 eprodrom Arnaud: we should decide whether raised issues should be closed or opened # 17:23 tantek would prefer jasnell have first crack at raised issues # 17:23 Zakim sees tantek, elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:24 eprodrom Arnaud: we've suffered from too many discussion protocols # 17:24 Zakim sees on the phone: jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), bblfish, eprodrom, tantek, Tsyesika (muted), Ann, cwebber2, wilkie # 17:24 Zakim tantek, you wanted to prefer using github issues for any issues which are only about the AS spec. and to also note that I thought we left choice of issue tracking venue up to # 17:24 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:24 tantek defers to jasnell for raised issue processing # 17:24 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: (btw I see my mistake, I misread participants as regrets :)) # 17:25 eprodrom tantek: for issues related to a spec, we should defer to the issue tracking mechanism that the spec editor prefers # 17:25 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue # 17:25 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss -1 on closing issues which don't have clear resulution *in notes* # 17:25 Zakim sees eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue # 17:26 eprodrom elf-pavlik: some of the issues that jasnell proposed to close don't have information, so we can't resolve them. # 17:26 tantek if an issue lacks specific links then yes we should reject # 17:26 eprodrom elf-pavlik: we didn't clarify whether some issues with vocabulary should be handled at the WG level # 17:27 ben_thatmustbeme i would agree, if there isn't any explanation, it can always be resubmitted with more information # 17:27 eprodrom Arnaud: I disagree. It's up to the WG to decide on issues of vocabulary. # 17:27 Zakim On the phone I see jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik, bblfish, eprodrom, tantek, Tsyesika (muted), Ann, cwebber2, wilkie # 17:27 Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, elf-pavlik, jasnell, eprodrom, AnnB, rhiaro, tantek, cwebber2, stevenroose, bblfish, ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, Tsyesika, JakeHart, bret, mattl, # 17:27 Zakim ... bigbluehat, wilkie, nickstenn, aaronpk, ElijahLynn, dwhly, Arnaud, Loqi, KevinMarks, wseltzer, trackbot, shepazu # 17:27 eprodrom Arnaud: it doesn't have to be done in the call, can be done offline. # 17:27 jasnell tantek: to the point about where the issues are being raised... it hasn't been clear that folks are actually using the github issue or looking at issues with the spec issue itself. I raised the issues on the w3c tracker to raise the visibility that there are specific spec issues that ought to be addressed # 17:27 jasnell I'd much rather be dealing with specific spec issues than continually discussing process # 17:28 tantek jasnell, if you want you can add specific github issues to telcon agendas. no need to go through tracker overhead. # 17:28 jasnell so far, we've spent 30 minutes talking largely about process # 17:28 eprodrom eprodrom: when do issues and actions factor into our acceptance? # 17:28 tantek jasnell, I'm trying to make less process work for you :/ # 17:28 eprodrom Arnaud: we have to document when we are ready to go to the next step # 17:28 jasnell I'd love it if we could talk about the specific issues now # 17:28 eprodrom Arnaud: We need to show our issues as being all closed when we go to candidate recommendation # 17:29 tantek we should reject as invalid any raised issue that we deem to be lacking sufficient information to understand / process (e.g. lacking links to specific part of spec, or specific example, etc.) # 17:29 eprodrom Arnaud: Much of this has to do with documenting that we've done our homework # 17:29 tantek hopefully that will encourage raising of more well documented issues # 17:29 eprodrom Arnaud: but it can be on Github or W3C Tracker # 17:29 tantek we should not duplicate github issues into tracker # 17:30 eprodrom Arnaud: we should document on the wiki that issues should go into Github # 17:30 tantek spec already links to where its issues are tracked! # 17:31 trackbot issue-18 -- We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between ldp and opensocial planned in the future? -- raised # 17:31 eprodrom jasnell: reviewing issue 18, not sure there's value. It's rather vague. # 17:31 cwebber2 I would assume not if opensocial isn't really happneing anymore # 17:31 eprodrom Arnaud: hhalpin has an action to clarify issue 18 # 17:32 trackbot issue-19 -- WG communication channel explosion -- raised # 17:32 eprodrom jasnell: issue-20 on text sequences: no existing implementations are doing it, no user stories require it # 17:32 trackbot issue-20 -- Represent Collections using JSON Text Sequences (RFC 7464) -- raised # 17:33 tantek suggest we reject 18 due to non-participation of open social people # 17:33 eprodrom jasnell: issue-22 is very general # 17:33 trackbot issue-22 -- Need to get data on implementor interest on specific features of the as spec -- raised # 17:34 tantek this is the larger problem of scope / size / feature set of AS # 17:35 eprodrom tantek: This issue is about what we should put at-risk # 17:36 eprodrom tantek: I'm trying to slim down the spec so we can get it accepted # 17:36 jasnell I think we deal with the issue best by looking a specific items # 17:36 tantek q+ if processors are only doing general mapping, then we should drop specific actions # 17:36 Zakim tantek, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...' # 17:36 tantek q+ to say if processors are only doing general mapping, then we should drop specific actions # 17:37 KevinMarks should we reach out to gnip and echo? they are big AS users so would have data on what is expressed # 17:37 Zakim sees tantek, jasnell on the speaker queue # 17:37 Zakim tantek, you wanted to say if processors are only doing general mapping, then we should drop specific actions # 17:37 eprodrom eprodrom: hard to do in the AS 2.0 process since most implementations are going to be general # 17:38 eprodrom tantek: I'm concerned that we don't have any implementations besides test ones # 17:38 eprodrom tantek: if implementations will be general, why have a vocabulary? # 17:38 eprodrom jasnell: we have the core and the vocabulary # 17:39 tantek I think elf-pavlik has done some work on specific vocabulary vs. user-stories? # 17:39 tantek I vaguely remember seeing a wiki edit about that # 17:39 eprodrom jasnell: vocabulary is more focused on API # 17:39 eprodrom jasnell: we need to map user stories to what the API is actually going to do # 17:40 eprodrom jasnell: and identify the minimal set that matches those user stories # 17:40 tantek jasnell, I'm ok with letting you drop anything (per editor discretion) you think should be dropped :) # 17:40 tantek sounds like jasnell is proposing an action on himself as a way of closing 22 # 17:40 eprodrom jasnell: I think we can close issue-22 if we can reconcile types in the vocabulary while we're going through the user stories # 17:41 eprodrom Arnaud: jasnell is already going through the spec for this # 17:41 tantek trust jasnell to edit and track his own actions # 17:41 eprodrom bblfish: start working on the api, then come back and find what's not used # 17:42 eprodrom PROPOSED: close issue-22 # 17:42 eprodrom RESOLVED: close issue-22 # 17:42 eprodrom jasnell: issue-23, backwards compatibility is already handled in the current spec # 17:42 eprodrom jasnell: issue doesn't discuss why the current text is not adequate # 17:43 tantek reject issue-23 due to lack of specific backcompat problem # 17:43 eprodrom Arnaud: we also have issue-7 # 17:43 eprodrom PROPOSED: close issue-23 # 17:43 eprodrom RESOLVED: close issue-23 # 17:44 trackbot Issue-2 -- What namespace should the Activity Streams 2.0 specification use? -- closed # 17:44 trackbot Issue-24 -- Do we put requirement on supporting static websites? -- raised # 17:44 eprodrom jasnell: issue-24, is this related to AS2.0? # 17:44 eprodrom tantek: I thought that issue-24 was covered at F2F # 17:45 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 17:45 eprodrom tantek: anything we develop for API must support static web sites # 17:45 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:45 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss issue-24 # 17:45 Zakim sees bblfish, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:45 sandro Not sure what was meant by "accepted". I don't agree this is a confirmed requirement. # 17:45 eprodrom elf-pavlik: I raised this issue because we should decide if it was accepted # 17:46 tantek we've figured out how to make static sites work with an API # 17:46 eprodrom Arnaud: please mark issues as API, AS 2.0, or Federation # 17:46 Zakim sees bblfish, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:46 eprodrom jasnell: API should be agnostic # 17:46 tantek jasnell: API should be agnostic as to whether website is static or not # 17:46 bret I publish consumable social data with a static website currently # 17:47 cwebber2 we have 10 minutes left and I think there's a lot left on the agenda, and we've mostly communicated about communicating so far in this meeting # 17:47 bblfish The issue should define what a static web site is # 17:47 eprodrom elf-pavlik: AS2.0 requires content negotiation at least # 17:47 Arnaud PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, there is no special requirement on static sites # 17:47 tantek jasnell and myself think API should support static sites # 17:48 jasnell tantek: perhaps the issue needs to be better clarified # 17:48 Zakim sees bblfish, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:48 eprodrom tantek: if we disagree, we should open the issue # 17:49 eprodrom Arnaud: elf-pavlik can close an issue he has raised # 17:49 trackbot issue-24 -- Do we put requirement on supporting static websites? -- raised # 17:49 eprodrom bblfish: if we use the proposal, we should define a static web site # 17:49 jasnell ok, if there's disagreement, I'll change mine to a -1 to closing it. +1 to opening the issue so it can be discussed further # 17:50 tantek eprodrom: I find it hard to understand how we could have an API that was read-only that was useful # 17:50 eprodrom PROPOSED: open issue-24 # 17:50 eprodrom RESOLVED: open issue-24 # 17:51 tantek oh boy. definitely think this deserves opening # 17:51 elf-pavlik <rhiaro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 re-affirming we'll use JSON-LD as in the current draft, with a normative context, and let people bring up sub-issues harry joined the channel
# 17:51 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:52 harry hi everyone, I'm at Google and can't talk, but can answer questions in IRC. # 17:52 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:52 harry Apologies for the excessive travelling in the last two weeks # 17:52 eprodrom jasnell: with issue-25, we have only one syntax to ship, so it's not clear why we'd use multiple syntaxes # 17:52 eprodrom cwebber2: will we get to any other agenda items? # 17:52 harry My feeling is only ship JSON-based syntax, but URL-based encoding is a URL formation question, and so would count as something to ship # 17:52 tantek jasnell, see above, this issue about is about *API* specifically, not AS (which "has only one syntax to ship") # 17:52 elf-pavlik Arnaud: people should be careful and very specific about issues they raise # 17:52 eprodrom Arnaud: we should be careful with the issues we raise, and have a proposed resolution # 17:53 harry HTML-based syntaxes (ala microformats2) have I believe the ability to be transformed to JSON programmatically # 17:53 jasnell tantek: understood, just need to figure out the minimal requirement here # 17:53 harry (would need tantek to step in to clarify) # 17:53 eprodrom Arnaud: I have proposed at the F2F to do 1.5h meetings # 17:53 tantek jasnell, method to minimum requirement may mean a smaller syntax # 17:53 eprodrom Arnaud: we can't progress unless we close issues # 17:53 AnnB +1 on extending call, at least sometimes # 17:53 eprodrom I have a 2PM call, so I'll need someone to take over for me. # 17:54 cwebber2 I really wanted eprodrom to be on the stuff for the activitypump stuff :P # 17:54 AnnB maybe announce for next time that it'll be an extended call? so people can plan it into their calendars # 17:54 tantek Arnaud, to be fair, we've had a backlog of raised issues for weeks # 17:54 eprodrom cwebber2: can we defer until next? # 17:54 eprodrom Arnaud: we are having a hard time with this group because of lots of different channels # 17:54 tantek eprodrom, proposal is to extend call NEXT week # 17:54 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:54 AnnB you're doing a GREAT job, Arnaud # 17:54 Tsyesika I don't think extensions are always needed, maybe just try and get through things a bit quicker # 17:54 Zakim sees cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 17:54 harry I think we have only 3 channels: IRC, wiki, email # 17:54 eprodrom tantek: let's extend the call next week # 17:55 Tsyesika it seems like we spent 10 minutes on if we should use github or tracker # 17:55 AnnB eprodrom might need help chairing, if it's a longer meeting # 17:55 AnnB make it 2, tantek # 17:55 AnnB can always end early if everyone gets too tired # 17:56 eprodrom jasnell: it would be good if the conversation could be raised on the wiki where everyone could respond # 17:56 eprodrom Arnaud: make specific proposals on the mailing list, to make these happen # 17:57 eprodrom wilkie: if you could take over here I'd appreciate it # 17:57 cwebber2 can I make a proposal for doing less meeting/communication time about communication time, or is that meta # 17:57 eprodrom scribenick: wilkie # 17:57 eprodrom Thanks all, sorry for the quick cut-out # 17:57 wilkie Arnaud: people need to pay attention and respond to the issues # 17:58 harry My feeling is to really think before bringing up issues, we bring them up often when they are pseudo-issues or clearly out of scope # 17:58 harry I would defer some of these issues to the editor # 17:58 wilkie Arnaud: I agree. is there anything else or do we call it a day now? # 17:58 wilkie jasnell: the next item is very specific and may be very in depth, it may be best to postpone discussion # 17:58 wilkie Arnaud: ok. we need to be, as a group, more effective at addressing this # 17:59 wilkie Arnaud: let's call it a day. thank you evan for scribing. thanks for joining. let's try to get together and make progress. # 18:03 trackbot action-52 -- Harry Halpin to Discuss re github -- due 2015-03-25 -- OPEN # 18:03 harry yep, we can move things over, but I don't run the W3C github, Robin Berjon does. # 18:04 harry Yep, who wants to be on that github team? # 18:05 elf-pavlik jasnell, can you imagine moving some of the ISSUEs from W3C tracker to github? we will encourage everyone to engage there but will cut on this time consuming process # 18:05 harry ok, I'll send an email asking for these on a wiki list # 18:05 jasnell it's going to be just as time consuming. It doesn't matter where the issues are recorded if folks aren't looking at them and discussing them # 18:06 jasnell and it needs to come from more than just the same very small number of people # 18:06 tantek those are all just shortcuts for trackbot to edit tracker # 18:06 jasnell and it needs to be focused on specific technical issues rather than high level data modeling and process type questions. We need to start dealing with specifics or we are wasting time # 18:08 jasnell I have a standing conflict for that time slot that I'm unable to get out of # 18:09 tantek elf-pavlik: I don't expect IG to make any progress on any specific vocab stuff - as that needs to be more implementation interest driven # 18:09 jasnell it's not clear if I'll be able to make it to Paris yet. There's a bit of a personal scheduling conflict for me that week. I won't know for another couple of weeks # 18:10 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, +1.617.247.aaaa, ben_thatmustbeme, elf-pavlik, +33.6.43.93.aabb, +1.514.554.aacc, eprodrom, tantek, bblfish, Ann, # 18:10 Zakim ... Tsyesika, +1.773.614.aadd, cwebber2, wilkie, bret # 18:10 trackbot issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open # 18:10 elf-pavlik tantek, have you looked at it? i put it as proposed for next week agenda when Eric can join us # 18:10 jasnell do folks have time to discuss some of the proposed raised specific syntax and vocabulary issues now? # 18:11 jasnell we can discuss here and I'll document the discussion on the mailing list # 18:11 Zakim sorry, elf-pavlik; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again # 18:11 trackbot issue-26 -- Representing profiles in Activity Streams 2.0 -- raised # 18:11 tantek elf-pavlik: I agree with some separation - I disagree on assumption of extensibility being a good thing - given experience showing that no extended vocabularies ever resulted in any interop # 18:11 Arnaud I have to say that I'm surprised by some of the issues and actions people put in the tracker # 18:11 jasnell if we can deal with those, there may not be reason to discussing those next week # 18:12 Arnaud I would expect them to be a bit better defined # 18:12 tantek thus it's better for a v1 spec to *not* have extensibility # 18:12 tantek to at least have a *chance* at good v1 interop # 18:12 Arnaud some of these are really poorly described and don't seem to belong here # 18:12 jasnell for issue-26, the rel="me" pattern doesn't help very much # 18:12 tantek but I also know that extensiblity is politically popular # 18:12 tantek so it's unlikely we can get rid of it completely # 18:13 Arnaud and several actions seem more personal todo lists than something the WG should care about # 18:13 elf-pavlik i proposed on today's agenda to convert big part of issues raised by jasnell to actions # 18:13 tantek elf-pavlik re: issue-26 - I think you revealed a big problem in the AS data model # 18:13 jasnell for Issue-26... consider the statement "Tantek created a profile and added his phone number and avatar to it". Using the AS2 syntax, how do we represent those actions # 18:13 Arnaud note that we could agree to open everything by default but I'm not sure that would help # 18:13 tantek when the rest of the social web actually conflates account/profile/person # 18:14 jasnell tantek: the use of "person" is a carryover from AS1, which was 2011 and prior # 18:14 tantek the whole semantic nitpicking about Author/Actor/Person is a big mistake # 18:14 tantek I see no gains from any of the semantic bikeshedding since # 18:15 Arnaud similarly I don't know that moving to github solves the particular problem of not having people engage off line enough # 18:15 tantek elf-pavlik: in Atom, author is a child element of entry. in microformats(2), p-author is a property of h-entry # 18:15 bret Arnaud: for one, github issues are about 100% more readable when it comes to replies since its actually formatted. # 18:16 jasnell let's ground this. let's take a very specific statement. "Tantek created his profile" # 18:16 tantek elf-pavlik: right, because IndieWeb progress has not needed a mailing list. # 18:16 tantek jasnell: such a statement is as useless as "immovable object meets an irresistble force" # 18:16 tantek if you're talking about an author, you already have a profile - they are one and the same # 18:16 elf-pavlik but 1) how to represent Person/Persona 2) how to describe activities about updating information about this Person/Persona # 18:17 tantek elf-pavlik, frankly the mailing list is mostly a honey pot for essays from folks that wish to write more than code. # 18:17 Arnaud bret, well, tracker is meant to be used along with the mailing list - if you use the mailing list responses are formatted too, right? # 18:17 jasnell no, not necessarily. for instance, I get twitter notifications all the time that such and such contact just created their twitter account # 18:17 elf-pavlik "Tantek created a profile and added his phone number and avatar to it" # 18:17 Arnaud I think the problem is indeed that not everybody agree with using the mailing list # 18:17 trackbot issue-19 -- WG communication channel explosion -- raised # 18:18 Arnaud so if we have a divided group with people using different channels and no clear way of having one conversation # 18:18 jasnell Activity streams describes activity. Describing the objects themselves is secondary # 18:18 jasnell {"actor": "http://tantek.example.org", "@type": "Create", "object": {"@type": "Profile", ...}}# 18:18 tantek jasnell and I think that model of activity vs objects was a mistake # 18:18 elf-pavlik jasnell, i want to raise ISSUE: " How ActivityStreams (as journal/log) fits more general purpose Social Data Model?" # 18:19 AnnB elf! I just heard you sent regrets for the Paris meeting ...??? really? # 18:19 AnnB oh good .. I would be so disappointed if you weren't there jasnell_ joined the channel
# 18:19 AnnB will you be there in person? # 18:19 tantek turns out every action is / should have a permlink which makes it an object # 18:20 elf-pavlik i'll catch up with the log here, going to #socialig to discuss with AnnB agenda for tomorrow # 18:21 jasnell_ perhaps... which is why AS2 makes steps to eliminate those differences... modeling activities as objects in their own right # 18:21 jasnell_ while attempting to preserve backwards compatibility with the AS1 model # 18:22 jasnell_ I'd like to eliminate the differences further. e.g. Issue-30. deprecate "actor" in favor of the more general "attributedTo" the_frey joined the channel
# 18:23 tantek jasnell: which you might as well rename "author" # 18:24 jasnell_ regardless of what we call it, the point is that it's needless to have separate "actor" and "author" and "attributedTo" properties that end up forcing Activities and Objects to be handled differently # 18:25 elf-pavlik jasnell_, Activities talk about interactions with other Objects # 18:25 bret Arnaud: when it comes to reply formatting on the mailing list, trying to pick out new information vs quoted/past information is a chore since its not visually formatted # 18:26 elf-pavlik jasnell_, do we still have something about past/presetn/future activities? # 18:26 elf-pavlik i have concern that we focus on remodeling Person, Event, Place etc. and don't give enought attention to Activity itself # 18:26 jasnell_ we have existing ways of modeling "Tantek" and "created". We don't have a way of modeling "Profile" # 18:27 jasnell_ none of which are currently normative references, which is the question # 18:27 Arnaud bret, you mean in your email client or the archive? # 18:27 wilkie did you know: the poco spec, just like the ostatus spec, has absolutely disappeared!! # 18:28 elf-pavlik what difference do you see between JSON-LD with "@type": "org:Organization" and profile of this organization? # 18:28 jasnell_ the approach in AS1 and AS2 has always been to leave it largely open. Let folks do what they want. Our user stories, however, talk about specific actions being taken against a profile. # 18:28 tantek jasnell_: by saying a name, e.g. "Tantek" in the context of the web, you are already referring to a profile. # 18:28 jasnell_ so Tantek created himself or the profile just came to be? # 18:28 tantek wilkie: hey atleast poco is *also* based on vcard! # 18:29 Arnaud I don't have a problem with that but I may have a higher pain threshold having been subjected to Notes for many years ;-) # 18:29 wilkie my understanding of even AS1 was that Person/Author contained the profile information and that they were equivalent # 18:30 tantek jasnell_: indieweb solves this by saying hey, sign-in with your domain. don't care how you got it or how it was setup etc. it just is. you just use it. # 18:30 elf-pavlik rel="me" or rel="schema:sameAs" take in a way pragmatic approach # 18:30 jasnell_ Ok. So are we saying then that there's no need to record the action that a profile was created? # 18:30 tantek wilkie: if that's so, then let's stick with that simplicity! # 18:30 tantek seriously, have missed having you around here wilkie, glad you're back. # 18:30 jasnell_ (twitter is just one example of a service that announces explicit creation of new profiles) # 18:31 wilkie I placed poco stuff in the Author tag, pulled it out of the Atom stuff, rendered it in html + v-card microformats # 18:31 wilkie jasnell_: couldn't you announce an update to the "Person", or does it really have more meaning to have an update to a profile # 18:32 elf-pavlik somehow it smells bit close to httpRange-14 Person - birthDate vs. createdAt(profile) # 18:32 jasnell_ The profile creation might not be done by the person themselves # 18:32 elf-pavlik we CAN'T make statements with Person as subject when we talk about person's profile # 18:32 jasnell_ for instance, in Connections, profiles are generally created by administrative action. # 18:33 jasnell_ the user cannot create or delete their profile, they can only update it # 18:33 jasnell_ keep in mind, I'm not arguing any side of the issue here, I'm simply describing the issue. the question is what is the requirement we need to capture. Does AS2 need a way of describing Profile as a separate type of thing # 18:33 elf-pavlik { "@type": "Person", "persona": [ {"@type": "Persona" }, {"@type": "Persona"}]# 18:34 wilkie I guess if identity is attached to a domain and profile is attached to a service, the distinction may be more intuitive # 18:34 jasnell_ and do we need a way of describing specific actions directed at a profile (e.g. adding content to it, removing content from it) # 18:35 Zakim disconnecting the lone participant, Tsyesika, in T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM # 18:35 Zakim Attendees were jasnell, Sandro, Arnaud, +1.617.247.aaaa, ben_thatmustbeme, elf-pavlik, +33.6.43.93.aabb, +1.514.554.aacc, eprodrom, tantek, bblfish, Ann, Tsyesika, +1.773.614.aadd, # 18:35 tantek wilkie: which is why the somewhat ambiguous "author" works so well # 18:36 tantek could be an org, a bot, a weather condition (@karlthefog) # 18:36 jasnell_ consider another story. MySocialSite uses FB for authentication. When Tantek first visits MySocialSite, he logs in using his Facebook account. He's given the option of creating a MySocialSite Profile. Which, of course, he does. A notification is sent to his Facebook friends that his new MySocialSite profile has been created. # 18:36 tantek meh on FB-specific user-story. they're not even in the WG :P # 18:37 jasnell_ tantek: it's no fun if I can't poke a bit while making these stories up l-) # 18:37 wilkie perhaps certain profiles you'd want... private. so it makes more sense to have them be distinct things with that in mind, instead of amending to your identity a list of profiles/services you are using. # 18:37 tantek jasnell_: that's the point - there's no need to create a duplicate profile # 18:38 tantek if you have a profile that other services can federate with, you don't need duplicates on each service! # 18:38 jasnell_ tantek: that may be true, but there are existing sites that do exactly that # 18:38 tantek jasnell_: I challenge you to get folks from such "existing sites" to participate in the WG # 18:38 jasnell_ you're the one who constantly asks for real world evidence # 18:38 tantek otherwise let's minimize our specs/APIs etc. to the absolute core minimum we need here # 18:39 tantek you're right, I ask for real world evidence, in the FORM OF URLs # 18:39 tantek editing a profile which is the same as the author's identity # 18:40 tantek you can't because by saying "Tantek" you're assuming a profile already exists. # 18:41 tantek elf-pavlik: nope. existing systems treat them as the same # 18:41 jasnell_ existing distributed auth systems do not treat them as the same # 18:41 wilkie where does the name "Tantek" go? not in the profile apparently. # 18:42 jasnell_ note.. using the existing AS2 vocabulary, it's perfectly valid to model something like {"@type": "Exists", "actor": {"@type": "Person", "displayName": "Tantek"}} # 18:43 wilkie in my code, local sign-in is a separate object with a username/password that you use to prove you can represent a particular profile. but beyond auth and crypto signing, it's not used. # 18:43 jasnell_ we can model intransitive activities with simple actor verb type statements # 18:43 wilkie the more things in AS model actor-verb-object, the less surprising they are, imo cwebber2 joined the channel
# 18:44 tantek in micropub you auth with your URL (name/identity), and then can edit the h-card at that URL (ergo update your "profile" info like dt-bday) # 18:45 jasnell_ tantek: go look at the first user story. it breaks things down into specific actions taken on the profile # 18:45 jasnell_ specifically: it is created, things are added to it, things are removed from it # 18:45 jasnell_ in AS2 we can model each of those individual edits as separate statements or we can model just the profile itself at specific states # 18:46 jasnell_ in other words, I can say "Tantek added their phone number to their profile" or I can say, "Here is Tantek's current profile" # 18:46 jasnell_ minimally required to address that specific user story # 18:47 jasnell_ I would say that you are arguing for the "Here is Tantek's current profile" level # 18:47 tantek I figure they're either vcard/poco/h-card properties or they're not # 18:47 tantek anyone is welcome to join vcarddav (I know, a mailing list) and suggest improvements to vcard's vocabulary # 18:47 jasnell_ ok, so you're saying there's no requirement to model individual changes as activities # 18:48 jasnell_ the modeling of the vcard vocabulary is not the question # 18:48 tantek jasnell_: on the contrary, changes to one's properties appear to be a very popular thing # 18:48 jasnell_ ok, so how do we model describing those specific changes? # 18:48 tantek e.g. changing your photo gets lots of attention on FB # 18:48 bret seems like lots of granularity adds a lot of wasteful work to the publishing side since the client has to diff the update anyway # 18:49 tantek jasnell_: those specific changes should be atomic edits to properties # 18:49 bret cant really trust what you are told, you have to find out for yourself # 18:50 jasnell_ think of it as the difference between sending someone a diff-patch versus the patched document bengo joined the channel
# 18:53 jasnell_ I have a profile. I make a bunch of changes to that profile. I want you to know specifically what changes were made. I want to be able to say, "I added an avatar", "I added my phone number", "Sally added a tag endorsing me for skill Foo" # 18:53 jasnell_ both approaches tell you that the profile was updated. The former breaks it down into more granular details # 18:54 jasnell_ AS2 gives us a syntax for expressing those granular details # 18:54 wilkie yeah, so right now you'd make an activity like: actor:"wilkie" verb:"updated" object:"wilkie" heh... and since it is an activity, people could comment on it, like it, etc, but it has no granularity # 18:55 jasnell_ but I could also say, actor:"james" verb:"add" object:"avatar" target:"james' profile" # 18:55 wilkie it's almost like object should have a means of specifying a particular field within the object. actor:"wilkie" verb:"updated" object:"wilkie.avatar" which would be considered a profile update, but also something more specific # 18:55 wilkie but then these fields of objects are now objects hm # 18:56 tantek in Indieweb terminology we call those edit posts # 18:57 tantek which, because they're fully system / URL / domain independent, can be you editing your own stuff, or posting a suggested edit to something else # 18:57 tantek it's an area of active live real world experimentation # 18:57 tantek to try to get real world experience to better inform a design # 18:58 jasnell_ well, AS gives us real world experience for that purpose # 18:59 tantek jasnell_: I think we have different meanings for "real world experience" # 19:00 tantek jasnell_: we don't need to use the term Activity to describe this # 19:00 tantek e.g. An Edit Post is essentially a type of post. # 19:00 tantek this is perhaps where I'm losing the Activity-streams-religion # 19:00 tantek seems like a stream of posts works to represent actual real world user-interactions # 19:00 jasnell_ I think you're getting too hung up on the difference in labeling # 19:01 tantek I'm getting hung up on adding more terminology # 19:01 tantek so I drop terms because it makes it easier to think / discuss / code # 19:01 jasnell_ we're not adding anything right now. the Activity terminology has been around for five plus years now # 19:02 tantek jasnell_: "around" except it never reached any degree of core market interop # 19:02 jasnell_ I'm all for reconciling terminology where it differs, yes, but I'm not inventing anything new here # 19:02 wilkie that's true for AS as well because they're all activities # 19:02 tantek jasnell_: I'm for trimming what appears to be less than market-successful # 19:02 tantek compare AS after 5 years to RSS/Atom after 5 years # 19:02 wilkie I have wild fantasies about likes of likes of likes of likes of likes of likes of favorites of posts # 19:02 tantek in terms of market/tools/sites adoption. that's what I'm talking about # 19:03 wilkie the more we talk about adoption rates the more centralized solutions are the best # 19:03 jasnell_ so the question remains: how do we represent specific changes to profiles # 19:03 wilkie I LIKE RSS!! although I break mine constantly somehow. # 19:04 jasnell_ so that it works with our json-ld syntax and maps well to things like microformats # 19:04 tantek jasnell_: frankly that seems like extra implementer work # 19:05 tantek why not map microformats(2) directly to RSS/Atom? # 19:05 elf-pavlik tantek, can you express in mf2 that you changed your currentLocation? # 19:05 tantek wilkie, my point is that the RSS/Atom model is essentially the same if you squint hard enough (and ignore some ambiguities in RSS) # 19:06 tantek and that our attempts (e.g. with AS) have not resulted in massive market adoption # 19:06 jasnell_ elf: +1... let's start there. Tantek: how would you describe a granular profile change to your personal profile. # 19:06 tantek note that profile changes are certainly *not* covered by RSS # 19:06 tantek so that's certainly a green field interms of vocabulary etc. from the RSS/Atom perspective # 19:07 wilkie "change" is not something that RSS/Atom really clearly support # 19:08 jasnell_ because Atom/RSS was not granular enough to support describing change # 19:08 jasnell_ tantek: in microformats, how would you describe that you added your phone number to your profile # 19:08 tantek jasnell_: and yet no one in AS looked at the RSS feeds coming from say Wikipedia / Mediawiki recent *change* to see what could be minimally modeled # 19:09 elf-pavlik <jasnell_> tantek: in microformats, how would you describe that you added your phone number to your profile # 19:09 tantek feels the conversation going in a circle so goes back to the logs # 19:09 wilkie we need a way to describe object "patches". I've been convinced. # 19:09 elf-pavlik looks like microformats vocabulary doesn't support expressing such information # 19:10 jasnell_ yes tantek, I saw that. I'm asking for a specific example of how you'd serialize it # 19:11 tantek no one's done it yet - someone has to start with trying to create a real world post do so, at least presentationally # 19:11 jasnell_ In the link to edit posts, I see: "We haven't quite figured out the "how" of a good way to markup edit posts." # 19:11 tantek I think that's likely the current state - you can ask in irc://irc.freenode.net/indiewebcamp to see if anyone (e.g. kylewm - the example listed on that page) has thought about it # 19:12 jasnell_ ok, so indieweb has talked about it but doesn't yet have a solution for it # 19:13 tantek so far the edit example(s) are "text block" level # 19:13 tantek property specific edits (photo, relationship status) are interesting based on how much interest such posts generate on silos like FB # 19:13 tantek phone number (which elf-pavlik keeps bringing up) not so much # 19:14 tantek don't think I've ever seen a "so and so updated their phone number" post anywhere # 19:15 elf-pavlik in a way i agree that while interesting challenge it doesn't sound like mission critical feature # 19:16 tantek right, I'd be ok not having any profile edits/changes in v1 of API # 19:16 jasnell_ generalize the problem: instead of tantek updated their phone number... tantek updated {profile property} # 19:17 jasnell_ where {profile property} could be their full name, their avatar, their current location # 19:18 jasnell_ it's not hypothetical to say that implementations are interested in expressing granular property level changes to profiles # 19:18 jasnell_ it doesn't matter if some of those properties are more interesting than others # 19:19 tantek because we have post types that are *actually implemented* and being *posted* # 19:25 jasnell_ this conversation keeps going in circles because as much as I'm trying to get it focused on specific examples, it keeps being brought back to a metadiscussion # 19:26 jasnell_ do we agree that the ability to describe granular changes to a object, whether it's a profile or otherwise, is an important requirement? # 19:26 tantek lacking specific examples (e.g. permalinks to public posts), it's inevitable for discussions to go meta # 19:26 elf-pavlik jasnell_, i get impression that tantek doesn't see feature you requested hight priority # 19:26 jasnell_ it doesn't matter if you call those Edit Posts or Activities # 19:26 elf-pavlik also we don't have in User Stories explicit requirement that those updates to profile generate granular activities # 19:26 jasnell_ I'm reconciling our existing vocabulary with our user stories # 19:26 tantek yes I see granular property edit posts are post-v1 # 19:27 elf-pavlik jasnell_, do you try to model API calls around such granular activities? # 19:28 tantek elf-pavlik granular: "updates her profile to remove her phone number. " # 19:28 elf-pavlik tantek, yes but that doesn't mandate generating activity for that API operation # 19:29 jasnell_ elf: that's what I'm trying to clarify. we have user stories that describe a set of actions but it's not clear how those map back to the syntax requirements # 19:30 jasnell_ I cannot reconcile the vocabulary to the user stories unless I know the level of granularity that is required elf-pavlik and bengo joined the channel
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Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-31]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83235&oldid=83199
AnnB hmm .. what's the command to get the links for wiki and log to show up ? is that the "topic"?
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/31-social-irc
elf-pavlik Zakim, code?
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, aaaa is me
jasnell tantek: to the point about where the issues are being raised... it hasn't been clear that folks are actually using the github issue or looking at issues with the spec issue itself. I raised the issues on the w3c tracker to raise the visibility that there are specific spec issues that ought to be addressed
KevinMarks should we reach out to gnip and echo? they are big AS users so would have data on what is expressed
tantek bblfish here is definition of a static website: https://indiewebcamp.com/static-site
wilkie that way /users/wilkie gives me my profile... not /users/wilkie/profile or something :P