2015-04-08 UTC
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# 09:38 Zakim As of this point the attendees have been aaronpk, Ann, cwebber2, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, rhiaro, tantek, jasnell, AdamB, wilkie, ShaneHudson, Harry, ben_thatmustbeme, Sandro, dret, # 09:38 RRSAgent ACTION: hhalpin to discuss with wseltzer to make sure this is fine [1] # 09:41 rhiaro !tell harry we didn't get minutes generated from 7th, how do we get them from the IRC logs? # 09:41 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next melvster joined the channel
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# 11:26 rhiaro !tell aaronpk: I did the minutes from 10th March too # 11:26 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next # 11:33 Zakim Attendees were aaronpk, Ann, cwebber2, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, rhiaro, tantek, jasnell, AdamB, wilkie, ShaneHudson, Harry, ben_thatmustbeme, Sandro, dret, Tsyesika, bret danbri, harry, hhalpin, the_frey, the_frey_ and AnnB joined the channel
# 15:22 melvster harry, hhalpin : sorry to disturb you, I was going to try and apply to join this group via: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg ... however Im not sure which W3ACL username / password to use, I tried to reset my pw and use that but I think it's the wrong one, do you have a pointer I can look at for account login? # 15:23 melvster was thinking if I signed up, and was approved, I might be able to make it to paris and show a few demos of what I've been working on # 15:26 melvster ahhh ok, after about 10 tried I got in ... lowercase <firstinitial><7letters of surname> # 15:32 AnnB GREAT to hear that you're joining, melvster, # 15:36 melvster AnnB: Having followed from a distance I've seen quite a bit of progress, the agreement at the F2F to work on convergence is something that I find really positive, and would try and help with # 15:37 rhiaro melvster: awesome! I think you can come to the Paris meeting even if you're not an IE, just need to be approved by a chair # 15:37 AnnB would be valuable to have you there # 15:37 AnnB it's likely the only time we'll meet in Europe for next year # 15:38 AnnB next F2F likely in October, in Japan, at Technical Plenary # 15:57 elf-pavlik melvster++ and come to Paris anyhow even as Invited Observer! tantek joined the channel
# 16:08 tantek I'm on the CSSWG telcon right now but can maybe answer brief questions :) the_frey joined the channel
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# 17:08 sandro melvster, from the title, I first thought it was *about* vimeo being a silo. # 17:09 sandro (Of course it's really '"Free is a Lie" on Vimeo') # 17:10 tantek is there any kind of a positive constructive message in that video? # 17:11 tantek melvster - note the very different tone / framing of the two titles # 17:12 tantek it's easy to criticize, much harder to provide hope # 17:13 melvster tantek: sandro: I think a privacy aware social web provides hope, momentum is building for it, I feel # 17:14 tantek melvster - there have been so many false starts of a "privacy aware social web" that I don't trust any "f��xngs" about it - only shipping examples on people's own websites # 17:15 tantek many of the false starts are monocultures, that is, a solution ships, but only interoperates with itself, and develops a community that seems only inwardly focused on that one codebase. # 17:15 melvster fair enough, I sort of feel the same way, maybe not as strongly as you tho # 17:16 tantek and frankly, it's quite laudable to focus on a good *UX* for private social web before protocols # 17:17 tantek but the monoculture nature of the community (around a single codebase) effectively prevented cross-implementation interop # 17:17 melvster yeah that was janb, who's now at owncloud, he's probably the best UI person in open source, imho, but even he got disillusioned with diaspora # 17:17 tantek melvster - it's harder to get disillusioned with the software that you run on your own site - why some of us push selfdogfooding so much # 17:18 melvster tantek: well diaspora was inspired by eben moglen's talk, freedom in the cloud, which I posted on the freedombox list, they then started diaspora which took on a life of its own, but there came huge expectations and not much time, or engineering experience, so a lot of corners were cut # 17:19 sandro +1 (really, really, hoping I can allocate the time between now and paris to implement various of these designs on my site.) # 17:19 tantek melvster, none of the "problems" actually mattered - it was the community being one-code-base-centric that was the top level problem # 17:19 melvster tantek: I agree, im into self dogfooding, and my new term 'dogfunding' -- which is dogfooders paying each other to solve problems :) # 17:20 tantek sandro, looking forward to seeing you post notes on your own site instead of or before Twitter ;) # 17:20 melvster sandro: just the case that we have limited resources, and must prioritize, leaving things we'd like to build but dont have time on the slow burner, if someone really needs a feature it can be crowd funded by the dogfooding community, sort of like scratching an itch, or paying to scratch an itch # 17:25 tantek which is why if you don't start with it, you never get it # 17:25 tantek selfdogfooding is really a "trick" of sorts to force early interop # 17:25 tantek since selfdogfooding encourages everyone to run *what they want* on their own site, instead of *the one perfect open source solution* # 17:26 tantek melvster - for example see the growing (like every month) list of interop micropub clients and servers # 17:27 melvster tantek: agree, my one slight differing is that, even though I run my own site, I've outgrown it now, so my footprint is over a number of domains, im not particularly fixed to a given domain, except for my identity # 17:27 tantek there's like 10x more micropub interop implementations currently than AS2 # 17:28 aaronpk melvster: I don't see how that's differing at all, actually. Especially if your identity is still one domain. # 17:33 melvster tantek: anyway judge for yourself, that video is an excellent presentation imho, and a good motivation for the social web # 17:33 tantek melvster - if it's Aral's talk, then I've watched it before # 17:34 tantek also why I was asking if it was primarily criticism or if there were concrete positive constructive messages of hope # 17:34 melvster am watching it from my own app ... I added video and audio today ... so dogfooding it :) # 17:36 melvster it actually beat my browser, because i havent (yet) installed flash on my new computer, but is works from my own app :) # 17:36 sandro Why? <tantek> and I expect it to hit 100x in 6 months # 17:38 tantek sandro - we could chart it and extrapolate from existing data :) # 17:38 tantek sandro - there is only one *test* deployment of an AS2 *publishing* stream currently, as discussed at the f2f # 17:39 tantek melvster, glad to hear your own app works better than flash! # 17:42 melvster tantek: not sure i'd say 'better', just it could do something that my browser could not ... # 17:43 melvster tantek: btw the guy who designed the first diaspora UI is helping me with my chat UI # 17:43 tantek melvster: great! way to recruit people back into our broader community. that's important # 17:44 melvster one thing i learnt today is how important multi media is ... adding img/audio/video tags to text content really gives it a new dimension KevinMarks joined the channel
# 17:45 tantek melvster: agreed. I remember when I added auto-embedding to my text notes it made huge difference in what I felt like I could post. # 17:45 melvster i mean I always wanted to do it, but experiencing it is another level of satisfaction :) # 17:46 melvster i guess marc andreessen was the first to notice this :) # 17:47 tantek I do remember the web looking noticeably more interesting when I first saw inline embedded images # 17:48 melvster yeah that's when the web really started taking off, but I think it was licensing issues that allowed the web to overtake gopher # 17:50 melvster so things I can hopefully demo by the next f2f ... decentralized chat, decentralized wallet, decentralized payment processor, decentralized task manager, decentralized bots that can feed into each of these, and integrations between all, so I can pay someone from chat, I can create a new task, I can be informed in chat when I get paid, when something interesting happens, when a task is complete, and I can get paid for completing tasks ... # 17:50 tantek melvster - presumably when you say decentralized - you mean with another implementation on another server right? # 17:50 melvster all this running on top of decentralized identity, access control, and decentralized commodity storage # 17:51 melvster tantek: proper decentralization, any data can live anywhere # 17:51 aaronpk melvster: this is something i can build support for into my site then? # 17:51 aaronpk e.g. my site is written in php and presumably you have built this in something other than php # 17:51 tantek melvster - not sure what you mean by "proper" nor "data" # 17:52 melvster it can live on any server yes, but it goes beyond that, it can live in a browser, on a device, in a database, even for extreme folks on pencil and paper # 17:52 tantek melvster - you're dodging the implementation(S) question # 17:52 melvster but the primary place is on an HTTP URL because dereferencing is built in # 17:52 tantek IMO you need *multiple* implementations to actually demonstrated *decentralization* # 17:53 tantek REPEAT: melvster - presumably when you say decentralized - you mean with another implementation on another server right? # 17:53 tantek otherwise you're falling into the same monoculture code trap that Diaspora and others did # 17:53 aaronpk melvster: say I want to send you payment in this sytem, do you have documentation/tutorial written that tells me what I need to do to build support for that into my site? # 17:54 tantek do you have the protocols documented anywhere with open licensing? # 17:56 aaronpk get the license and contributor agreement on there asap # 17:56 tantek in the spirit of helping, here's suggested license text / markup # 17:56 aaronpk the longer you wait on that the harder it is to fix later # 17:56 tantek Mozilla legal approved for independent specifications bengo and danbri joined the channel
# 18:45 aaronpk melvster: are you coming to the f2f meeting next month? jaywink joined the channel
# 18:52 sandro :-) (I asked him yesterday and he was non-committal) tilgovi joined the channel
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# 22:05 bengo In the AS2 Vocab, what is the semantic difference between "Identity" and "Profile"? # 22:05 bengo as:Profile is ONLY mentioned in the 'non-normative ontology' at the bottom: # 22:06 bengo as:Profile a owl:Class ; # 22:06 bengo rdfs:label "Profile"@en; # 22:06 bengo rdfs:comment "A Profile provides a description of an Actor"@en ; # 22:06 bengo rdfs:subClassOf as:Object # 22:06 bengo Is as:Profile an accidental inclusion? KevinMarks joined the channel
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trackbot Sorry, rhiaro, I don't understand 'trackbot generate minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/08-social-minutes.html trackbot
Loqi Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-04-07-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83412&oldid=0
melvster harry, hhalpin : sorry to disturb you, I was going to try and apply to join this group via: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg ... however Im not sure which W3ACL username / password to use, I tried to reset my pw and use that but I think it's the wrong one, do you have a pointer I can look at for account login?
AnnB GREAT to hear that you're joining, melvster,
elf-pavlik melvster++ and come to Paris anyhow even as Invited Observer!
