#social 2015-05-12

2015-05-12 UTC
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Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84083&oldid=84081
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Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84084&oldid=84083
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elf-pavlik rhiaro, i have bunch of ideas, will sketch them and add issues to appropriate repos on gh
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: great, same :)
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elf-pavlik :)
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/More user stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84085&oldid=83700
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: did you manage to get turtle in your profile yet?
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elf-pavlik melvster1, you got me! i'll just start doing it now... got stuck in merging two code bases
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elf-pavlik one which runs my live site: https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled
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melvster1 np, maybe now you can see why convergence takes a long time
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elf-pavlik one which i switch to: https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-provider/tree/forkdb
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elf-pavlik melvster1, i already spoke with bblfish to support embeded text/turtle and text/ld+json in HTML
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#embedding-json-ld-in-html-documents
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bblfish yes, though, now there are 5 different ways to embed rdf in html, which is crazy
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elf-pavlik service similar to https://indiecert.net/ which 'holds your hand' and guides throught adding WebID to you homepage would help with making it more accessible to implement
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bblfish not very keen on all that
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bblfish makes a huge mess for parsers
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elf-pavlik timbl mentioned in Paris that he prefers puttin turtle in <script type="text/turtle"> over RDFa
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bblfish I understand that preference.
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elf-pavlik this way you could generate cert and as https://indiecert.net/ does say: copy those lines and paste them on your webpage
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elf-pavlik done!
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bblfish less likely to break if someone changes that styling
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elf-pavlik bblfish, have you tried https://indiecert.net/ ? it really does amazing job on guiding visitor through the process of bootstrapping webpage to support it
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elf-pavlik and takes < 5min
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elf-pavlik issue-24
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trackbot is looking up issue-24.
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trackbot issue-24 -- Do we put requirement on supporting static websites? -- open
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/24
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elf-pavlik also works well with ^
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elf-pavlik it took me 5min to add it to my website! for WebID i need to finish merginig code bases and add content negotiation and replying with turtle
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elf-pavlik which i hope to finish today anyways :)
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bblfish I really don't believe in people writing RDF or cutting and pasting it as a way to gain traction. It's good for the early days ( say the first 10 years of rdf ) but we're beyond that
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elf-pavlik bblfish, how many people uses WebID-TLS ?
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bblfish it's absolutely unimportant elf. How many people are vegans?
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bblfish how many people live without money.
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bblfish What's important is to do what is correct.
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elf-pavlik point taken
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elf-pavlik at the same time, small baby steps and progressive enhancements make a lot of sense to me
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elf-pavlik http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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bblfish yes, the baby is 10 years old. So as I said, we've allready learnt to run, and to jump, and to climb.
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bblfish now we're learning to drive
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bblfish and use power tools
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bblfish like LDP, JS, ajax, etc. to make things really seamless
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bblfish Not that I have anything against putting turtle in HTML. It's just not the thing that is going to make the huge difference, and it adds to teh complexity of parsing html now. But whatever...
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melvster1 bblfish++
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Loqi bblfish has 10 karma
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elf-pavlik bblfish, melvster1 https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues/26
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elf-pavlik rhiaro, ^
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: solid doesnt recommend anything, any more than UNIX recommends where to put your files, id really suggest using the system before making posts such as this
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melvster1 it would be hard, for example, to take seriously a critique of facebook, from someone that has yet to sign up
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melvster1 in SoLiD you can POST to any LDPC
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elf-pavlik_ melvster1, SoLiD currently does't describe use of pingback
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elf-pavlik_ while this story uses it https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/blob/master/UserStories/PrivateSharing.md
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: btw, how did you generate those diagrams?
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elf-pavlik for now i just use Google Draw, will need to switch to some open source based tool ASAP
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elf-pavlik for now will just start addking link to original and allow making copy (fork) if someone wants to modify it and use in discussion
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elf-pavlik progressive enchancements
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melvster1 solid can post to a shared container, to one person hosting for a group, or to individuals all hosting their own content and meshing it up, it's a hybrid system, much like UNIX is a hybrid system
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elf-pavlik melvster1, how do you do in UNIX a symlink from shared directory to a file in directory on my hard disk?
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84086&oldid=84084
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ben_thatmust elf-pavlik: does the shared directory make a difference? can't you just do 'ln -s actualfile newsymlink'
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, i just wanted to point that UNIX file system comparison melvster uses doesn't need to directly apply to the web, with symlinks we may get little closer though :)
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, does nowadays people collaborating in context of IndieWeb camp use same URI for their home page and their feed? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015May/0041.html
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: i saw that. As of right now there is a tendancy to only use the home page which usually has an h-card in it for the person, but can also have a link to the feed if its not on the home page. It is a very interesting question though of listing multiple feeds and having discoverability of that
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ben_thatmustbeme i think it will likely turn about best to have some links in the page to a list of any feeds. probably with some description on them. This would make it so that 1 query to the user's page would generate a list for the user to subscribe to
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elf-pavlik how people currently link to their main feed?
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elf-pavlik digging in cimba to see how it does multiple channels https://github.com/linkeddata/cimba
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/linkeddata/cimba/tree/master/src/app/channels
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bblfish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqHSbMR_udo : be water my friend
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elf-pavlik thx bblfish
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elf-pavlik bblfish, do you know how cimba links account to channels/feeds ?
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/linkeddata/cimba#architecture---detailed
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bblfish the remix of "empty your mind" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EygqL--RW4
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elf-pavlik <#me> <http://www.w3.org/ns/pim/space#storage> <https://example.org/data/>
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elf-pavlik but how it links to <https://example.org/data/channel> ?
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elf-pavlik deiu, sandro could you help with explaining how you relate accounts (people) with channels?
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elf-pavlik oh, this looks helpful https://github.com/linkeddata/cimba#architecture---overview
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elf-pavlik melvster1, http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-12/line/1431429631783
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: I know of 2 ways currently this can be done... the one most use is rel=feed on a link to the feed. The other is to make a feed thats only a partial (in this case empty) feed, with a u-url to the full feed https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#Brainstorming
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bblfish does not foaf have a foaf:blog relation?
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elf-pavlik rel="feed" makes sense to me since one can link to any number of feeds this way, it still requires a way to tell difference between various feeds
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elf-pavlik bblfish, what if i want to have channel for check-ins ? foaf:blog doesn't sound appropriate here
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bblfish I am not sure what you mean by channel
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bblfish you said channel/feeds
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elf-pavlik http://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/#streams
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elf-pavlik channel / feed / stream - we need to work on aligning our terminologies
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elf-pavlik "itemsType": ["activity"]
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elf-pavlik similar approach would allow to create channel / feed / stream per type of items it includes
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elf-pavlik CheckIn, Image, Photo etc.
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elf-pavlik Note, Article ...
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bblfish Given that this is a very specific AS20 concept, I am sure we can use the AS2.0 relation
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bblfish If it is json-ld
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bblfish But I sometimes hear they prefer json
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bblfish ;-)
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elf-pavlik SoLid talk about channel (from Cimba), IndieWeb about feed and ActivityStreams about stream
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bblfish ah.
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: one suggested way was to have rel="feed" title="Photos only feed" href="...
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: the problem with that from the indieweb side is that you are then forcing implementors to have set storage groupings. (checkins/ photo/ event/ rsvp/ etc). aaronpk has been moving away from any type definitions in storage as there are many times things can be ambiguous (note with a location vs checking with text, or note with photo vs photo with comment, etc)
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ben_thatmustbeme he has found it better for storage to not care about post types
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, each item can also have multiple types
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melvster1 sioc : channel
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melvster1 it's a container of posts
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elf-pavlik melvster1, SIOC doesn't define channel property
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melvster1 u sure?
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elf-pavlik it does have feed http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/#term_feed
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elf-pavlik and follows :) http://rdfs.org/sioc/spec/#term_follows
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melvster1 http://rdfs.org/sioc/types#ChatChanne
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elf-pavlik melvster1, type not property/predicate
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aaronpk i actually built a thing like this long ago, where a user could create multiple "channels" either public or private, and when someone wanted to follow that user, they'd actually follow one or more channels
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aaronpk https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/sets/72157633041808362
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, great!
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aaronpk that's what i want to do on my site now, rather than segmenting my feeds by post type
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elf-pavlik we could see type as special case of tag
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elf-pavlik "@type" == rdf:type which just means inclusion of a thing in a set things
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: do you know the world citizen project?
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elf-pavlik melvster1, i think i have heard about it, if not relevant to #social let's start private query?
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elf-pavlik s/in a set things/in a set of things/
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, does people use multiple types with microformats? e.g. class="h-card h-cite"
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elf-pavlik one of the difference between channel and tag relates to what has authority to decide on membership/containment
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elf-pavlik the channel dictate which items they include
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elf-pavlik or items dictate in which channels they appear
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elf-pavlik with ACL second may cause issues
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melvster1 elf-pavlik:
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melvster1 'Christopher Ellis: David and I are redoing the World Citizen prototype to include JSON-LD'
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melvster1 they want to implement WebID too
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: it doesn't often make sense to use multiple types with microformats, but currently some people are posting "h-entry h-as-note" I know
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melvster1 http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/31/your-next-passport-could-be-on-the-blockchain/
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elf-pavlik melvster1, cool!
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: https://onename.com/ may also be persuaded to use webid
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elf-pavlik re: "note with a location vs checking with text, or note with photo vs photo with comment"
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elf-pavlik how do you use same photo in two separate notes?
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme ^
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melvster1 elf-pavlik: the biggest thing to understand re the issue you posted, is that in liked data some people think in triples and some people think in quads, if you think it triples the location matter, it's relatively centralized, if you think in quads the location matters a lot less, it's relatively decentralized ... both schools have followers
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aaronpk the photo has its own URL, so posts just put the image in an <img> tag, doesn't really matter where that image is
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melvster1 indie web is centralized around your home page
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melvster1 solid is location independent
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elf-pavlik but if i want to comment on that photo, not on a note that uses that photo?
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elf-pavlik more about media objects on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
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elf-pavlik i also think in direction of http://www.oembed.com rather than just <img> or <audio> tag
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aaronpk you're welcome to try to send a webmention to one of my image URLs and see what happens
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aaronpk although i'm not sure i advertize webmention endpoints on static assets
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elf-pavlik but i can't get page which shows mentions of that image, since i always get binary in response
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aaronpk this feels like overengineering the problem
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elf-pavlik adveritze - in HTTP headers?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk i feel like this is a theoretical problem, not based in any sort of practical reality
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elf-pavlik not really, i want to like a photo, not its particular resolution or .jpg .png .gif encoding
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melvster1 yes
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elf-pavlik while notes, articles want to show particular size + encoding
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aaronpk here is one of my photos http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/05/12/1/beyondtellerrand
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elf-pavlik it may work even more for vides since last time i check different browsers required different encodings to play
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elf-pavlik curl -I http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/05/12/1/beyondtellerrand
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elf-pavlik Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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elf-pavlik curl -I http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/05/12/1/files/photo.jpg
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aaronpk right, it's a pretty well established pattern to have a URL for the photo in a content type that is not binary data
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elf-pavlik Content-Type: image/jpeg
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aaronpk send a "like" post with the URL to my html page
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aaronpk i don't see what the problem is
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elf-pavlik how do you use http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/05/12/1/beyondtellerrand in another post ?
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elf-pavlik let me find facebook example ...
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aaronpk i have done that with my "collections" posts
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elf-pavlik https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/posts/860611487331883
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/collections/2014/10/17/1/indieweb-border-none
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: i would say that this is why there is always a "note" or "photo post" with every photo, really the text of the photo is the subtitle
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ben_thatmustbeme as to how I re-use photos. I haven't really every needed to
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aaronpk here's an example of 4 of my own photos re-used in a post http://aaronparecki.com/collections/2014/08/14/1/
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elf-pavlik uses https://www.facebook.com/OpenStreetMap/photos/a.10151917077279369.1073741825.22007529368/10153311168984369/?type=1
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ben_thatmustbeme i may use photos in articles, but that is as HTML mark-up
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aaronpk fyi internally, my collection posts are just a list of URLs, so that last one is a bunch of URLs to my own html pages with the h-entry for each photo
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, do you do thumbnails ?
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aaronpk not yet, but i will once i run everything through a proxy to avoid the http/https mixed content warnings
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elf-pavlik aaronpk++
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: that is not a photo re-used as a second post though. the comments and text with it are all stuck to the photo,
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Loqi aaronpk has 805 karma
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elf-pavlik I also notice lately that h-feed doesn't use explicit property to link to included items, instead relies on nesting in html
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elf-pavlik how items can link to h-feeds which include them?
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aaronpk not sure what you mean... every h-entry in an h-feed is expected to include its URL
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elf-pavlik but it it ends up in "children" when parsed
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aaronpk right that's how h-feed works
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elf-pavlik so doesn't relate to h-feed via some defined property
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elf-pavlik e.g. p-item
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aaronpk correct http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed#Properties
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aaronpk "children: nested h-entry objects representing the items of the feed"
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elf-pavlik having such property "p-foo" (or rel="foo") each entry could link to feeds which include it with rev="foo"
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aaronpk still hung up on this rev thing?
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elf-pavlik i understand for now one would need to use *tag* and than have one feed per tag
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elf-pavlik what if you 'tag' entries with URI of feed?
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4b7aV9fW.jpg
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elf-pavlik just as taging photos with URIs of people's homepages
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elf-pavlik p-category hack
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rhiaro tag all the things
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4b7cUVCK.jpg
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aaronpk you could certainly do that. what is the use case?
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elf-pavlik using single entry (including photo) in multiple feeds
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aaronpk you don't really need feed-tagging for that to work, although that is certainly one way to do it
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elf-pavlik and have both way links feed to all its elements and each allemens to all feeds which include it
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aaronpk a single entry in multiple feeds is really an internal implementation thing
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elf-pavlik why internal?
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aaronpk my site does that already, i hav ea feed for each tag, as well as some post types
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/metrics vs http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/food
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/tag/indieweb and http://aaronparecki.com/tag/indiewebcamp show a lot of the same posts too
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elf-pavlik one could consider all of above feeds which allow independent subscription
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aaronpk i suppose if i changed my markup when I display a link to a tag, I could make the category property be the tag feed
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aaronpk right now I have: <a href="/tag/indieweb">#<span class="p-category">indieweb</span></a>
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elf-pavlik u-category ? :)
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aaronpk i could change that to <a href="/tag/indieweb" class="u-category">#indieweb</a>
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elf-pavlik aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 806 karma
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aaronpk and then the category property would be a URL
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elf-pavlik URL++
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Loqi URL has 2 karma
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rhiaro ^ I'm going to do that for my tags I think
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aaronpk or even <a href="/tag/indieweb" class="p-category h-feed">#indieweb</a>
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aaronpk so that there's a human-readable version of the tag name still
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aaronpk example: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/eae880787d4854f9321e
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aaronpk consumers of the "category" property that don't know what to do with the type=h-feed can just use the "value" property which is what it's for
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elf-pavlik doesn't u-category also keep value inside of element?
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aaronpk no, u-* returns a single string as the value
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elf-pavlik does this make any sense? <a href="/tag/indieweb" class="u-category"><span class="p-name">#indieweb</span></a>
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aaronpk that would set the "category" property to "/tag/indieweb" and the "name" property to "#indieweb" of whatever object it's inside
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aaronpk which is probably not what you want
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elf-pavlik <a href="/tag/indieweb" class="u-category p-name">#indieweb</a> ?
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aaronpk same
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elf-pavlik thx :)
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elf-pavlik i thought in direction of http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#embedding
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elf-pavlik <a href="/tag/indieweb" class="p-category h-feed">#indieweb</a> you proposed currently makes most sense to me, at least as far as i understand microformats markup and modeling
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elf-pavlik by saying that feed doesn't use property to link to its elements, i mean lack of something in lines of rev="category" and instead using nesting in representation
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elf-pavlik or special property "children" when parsing to json
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elf-pavlik if p-element exist than parsed items would land in "element" array (not "children"
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elf-pavlik also rev="element" would ~= rel="category" which in a way makes sense
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elf-pavlik for now it stays specific to HTML representation and microformat json parsing (which introduces 'special' children)
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elf-pavlik having property like *-element would make it work with JSON-LD, Turtle, RDFa etc. using IMO standard way of linking on a web
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elf-pavlik prety much http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-items (with IMO unfortunate 'special' plural name)
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elf-pavlik afk
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ben_thatmustbeme i already do that on my site, any category i put in automatically becomes its own feed
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ben_thatmustbeme i need to be better about tagging everything though
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, can people find all those feeds by 'following nose' from your homepage?
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ben_thatmustbeme they are all on my homepage, but i don't have anything to specify them as feeds
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ben_thatmustbeme I also have other feeds per object type like "/note" and "/photo"
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll have to add those to head
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, for feeds 'per object type' you could use simlar approach as ActivtyPump proposes with 'itemType' http://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/#streams
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elf-pavlik i experiment with marking it by what type of object given collection expects https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L387-L402
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elf-pavlik in HTML one could use RDFa for describing related feeds in similar way, not sure if Microformats could handle that
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elf-pavlik on the other hand, instead of embedding information about the feed, adding just link with rel="feed" allows discovery of it and consumer can fetch them to get more information
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ben_thatmustbeme thats more what i could think of
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elf-pavlik s/about the feed/about feeds/
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ben_thatmustbeme forcing item types can get messy and you have to deal with how to handle someone changing the type of an entry
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elf-pavlik i don't say forcing, but if one uses it can take advantage of it
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ben_thatmustbeme that why i said, i can just add those links to my head. rel="feed" title="Photos Only" href="/photo"
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elf-pavlik this doesn't have machine readable information about "@type": "Photo"
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elf-pavlik only rel="feed"
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't think there is much use case for that outside of possibly a photo-only feed
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elf-pavlik still feed could have something like "itemType": "Photo" or "elementType": "Photo"
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elf-pavlik check-in
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elf-pavlik RSVP
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elf-pavlik Like
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elf-pavlik Eat
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elf-pavlik ...
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ben_thatmustbeme no
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ben_thatmustbeme it would be much simpler to fetch a full feed and strip out things you don't care about
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elf-pavlik those options don't exclude each other
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elf-pavlik each item can appear in any number of feeds!
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ben_thatmustbeme correct, but you are adding markup needlessly
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elf-pavlik what markup? just optional property that specifies type of included elements
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ben_thatmustbeme the only additional markup i see any need for is perhaps a fullfeed
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ben_thatmustbeme correct, because i might say anything at /posts only includes "notes" but then at a later date, i change it
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ben_thatmustbeme now i break other's code because they are not doing the testing for entry types they should have been doing in the first place
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elf-pavlik let's continue after WG telecon, i need to get pick up food from https://foodsharing.de
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ben_thatmustbeme post types can change as people decide to modify their code
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ben_thatmustbeme okay
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elf-pavlik once again, one can *choose* to publish feeds/streams restricting types of things they accept but doesn't have to
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elf-pavlik if someone wants to publish mixed feeds no one will stop this person from doing so
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elf-pavlik but then someone needs to come up with more ways to distinguish feeds/streams/channels
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elf-pavlik and yes, title / label also can work as another, complementary way
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elf-pavlik afk
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cwebber2 hello!
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aaronpk good morning/evening
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cwebber2 ooh, still 1.5 hours till the meeting
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cwebber2 goes and gets brunch
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2F I added rel="feed" to all my feed links
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eprodrom Ugh
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wilkie hi
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eprodrom The woodshop in the loft next door to my office just started using their bandsaw
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wilkie you're next to a woodshop?? that's rough.
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harry Hmmm that will make chairing tricky. Could you ask them to turn it off for an hour?
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eprodrom I've got headphones and we have a sound-proof meeting room in progress
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eprodrom So it should be OK
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harry We should probably also add to the agenda a quick review of the f2f for those who weren't there.
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aaronpk where is zakim?
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eprodrom wilkie: We moved in here on Feb1
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eprodrom There we go
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elf-pavlik Zakim, which conferences?
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Zakim I don't understand your question, elf-pavlik.
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, what conferences?
#
Zakim I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM active
#
Zakim also scheduled at this time are WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, IA_WEBPD()1:00PM, RWC_WAPI()12:00PM, UW_WOTIG()12:00PM, WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM
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eprodrom elf-pavlik, please let me start the meeting
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elf-pavlik eprodrom, i didn't start anything
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eprodrom I'm aware of that
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elf-pavlik but now Zakim will announce when we can start dialing in
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eprodrom I'm just asking that when the time comes to start, you don't fire off a bunch of trackbot/Zakim commands
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elf-pavlik eprodrom, wilco!
jasnell joined the channel
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harry will be in IRC and dial in as needed, in a stuck train.
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme++ 'follow your nose' http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-12/line/1431447430732
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 71 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: kylewm is already is parsing those lists out in his reader and you can subscribe to any specific feed now
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elf-pavlik kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 168 karma
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Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84089&oldid=84086
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eprodrom Arnaud, I think our schedule is a little off
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cwebber2 oh noooo
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cwebber2 I forgot to add the webfinger / FYN thing to the agenda
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eprodrom trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/12-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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eprodrom cwebber2, I added it
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Zakim ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 12 May 2015
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elf-pavlik Zakim, code?
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Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), elf-pavlik
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harry To be precise, we are at least 6 months off re API
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aaronpk Zakim: who is on the call?
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jasnell fyi... I am on the call but I am currently at a conference. it's quite noisy so I'll be on mute and will comment via irc
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cwebber2 eprodrom: oh good!
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aaronpk urgh zakim
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aaronpk Zakim, who is on the call?
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Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has not yet started, aaronpk
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Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, jasnell, Zakim, eprodrom, tilgovi, jaywink, harry, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, bblfish, tessierashpool_, KevinMarks, slvrbckt, skddc, mattl, dwhly, bret, cwebber2,
#
Zakim ... wilkie, Loqi, tommorris_, ElijahLynn, rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme, shepazu, oshepherd, deiu, aaronpk, kylewm, Tsyesika, JakeHart, bigbluehat, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has not yet started, elf-pavlik
#
Zakim sees on irc: RRSAgent, jasnell, Zakim, eprodrom, tilgovi, jaywink, harry, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, bblfish, tessierashpool_, KevinMarks, slvrbckt, skddc, mattl, dwhly, bret, cwebber2,
#
Zakim ... wilkie, Loqi, tommorris_, ElijahLynn, rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme, shepazu, oshepherd, deiu, aaronpk, kylewm, Tsyesika, JakeHart, bigbluehat, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
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Zakim sorry, ben_thatmustbeme, I don't know what conference this is
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ben_thatmustbeme what the?
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Arnaud zakim, this is socl
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Zakim ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
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ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
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Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, +1.503.278.aaaa, jasnell, bblfish, Arnaud, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), ??P6
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, ??P6 is me
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Zakim +elf-pavlik; got it
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elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
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Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
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elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, +1.503.278.aaaa, jasnell, bblfish, Arnaud, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted)
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
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Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: eprodrom (60%), +1.503.278.aaaa (4%), Arnaud (19%)
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ben_thatmustbeme we can hear the woodshop
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elf-pavlik sounds ok now
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aaronpk Zakim, aaaa is me
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Zakim +aaronpk; got it
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aaronpk Zakim, rhiaro is with me
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Zakim +rhiaro; got it
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cwebber2 *erowwwww*
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eprodrom Zakim, who is on the call?
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Zakim On the phone I see eprodrom, aaronpk, jasnell, bblfish, Arnaud, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted)
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Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
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aaronpk Zakim, mute me
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Zakim aaronpk should now be muted
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rhiaro I'll scribe
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rhiaro loves scribing SO much :p
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Zakim +[IPcaller]
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wilkie Zakim, IPcaller is me
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Zakim +wilkie; got it
#
eprodrom scribenick: rhiaro
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ben_thatmustbeme scribe: rhiaro
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rhiaro TOPIC: Approval of f2f minutes
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rhiaro arnaud: did we approve the minutes of the call before?
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rhiaro eprodrom: no, let's do that now
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rhiaro ... 4/28
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rhiaro ... adding to agenda
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-21-minutes
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Zakim +??P8
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Tsyesika Zakim, ??P8 is me
#
Zakim +Tsyesika; got it
#
rhiaro ... comfortable to approve them, or wait to next week?
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Tsyesika Zakim, mut eme
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Zakim I don't understand 'mut eme', Tsyesika
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-28-minutes
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Tsyesika Zakim, mute me
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Zakim Tsyesika should now be muted
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ben_thatmustbeme I think everyone has had 2 weeks now
tantek joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme I hink we can approve the minutes
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eprodrom PROPOSED: approve minutes of 2015-04-28 telecon
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eprodrom +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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elf-pavlik +1
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cwebber2 +1
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Tsyesika +1
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rhiaro +1
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aaronpk +1
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wilkie +1
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elf-pavlik SoLiD :D
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eprodrom RESOLVED: approve minutes of 2015-04-28 telecon
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tantek has a sore throat (can't speak) but figured he'd jump on IRC anyway :/
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ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, who is on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, aaronpk (muted), jasnell, bblfish, Arnaud, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), wilkie, Tsyesika (muted)
#
Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
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rhiaro TOPIC: approval of 2f2 minutes
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04-minutes
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eprodrom PROPOSED: approve minutes of 2015-05-04 telecon
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rhiaro ... Thanks to everyone who scribed
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elf-pavlik +1
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rhiaro +1
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cwebber2 +1
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eprodrom eprodrom: +1
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rhiaro ... Feel free to +0 or -1 if you need more time
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aaronpk +1
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ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, FYI tantek isn't on the call, only on via IRC... he didn't hear any of that
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro has read them three times :p
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bblfish +1 confident in rhiaro
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eprodrom tantek, feel free to participate via IRC but jump on q if you want everyone to pay attention otherwise it's backchannel
#
Arnaud it's unfortunate that the resolutions aren't highlighted
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tantek ok
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eprodrom RESOLVED: approve minutes of 2015-05-04 telecon
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rhiaro ... See no objections
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tantek s/telecon/f2f
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eprodrom RESOLVED: approve minutes of 2015-05-04 F2F2
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eprodrom RESOLVED: approve minutes of 2015-05-04 F2F
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ben_thatmustbeme have fun fixing that rhiaro :P
#
rhiaro ... Next week's telecon is at normal time
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: one of my fave hobbies :D
#
Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84090&oldid=84089
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eprodrom tantek, are you able to chair next week?
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rhiaro ... if tantek is available next week, we'd like him to chair
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harry Could be done easily enough in wiki if someone has time
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rhiaro ... regular call on 19th
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tantek I'm at CSSWG f2f next Tue - unlikely to be able to chair
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rhiaro TOPIC: Items in tracker
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eprodrom http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open
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tantek but can chair the week after that
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eprodrom http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/open
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aaronpk thx for the link
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harry How about Arnaud chairs next meeting?
#
eprodrom We'll figure that out
#
elf-pavlik q+ to mention finishing action-14 with sandro
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... Let's discuss open actions and issues that we might be read to move forward with
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eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim unmutes elf-pavlik
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elf-pavlik action-14
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trackbot is looking up action-14.
#
RRSAgent sees no action items
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trackbot action-14 -- Harry Halpin to Set up json-ld context for namespace -- due 2014-12-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
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Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention finishing action-14 with sandro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/14
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jasnell it's too noisy for me to speak
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jasnell but I can update some status here
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: after f2f we set up CORS headers with sandro for activitystreams
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rhiaro ... so it works properly in playground etc
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jasnell following the face to face last week I made a number of edits to the editor's drafts following the resolutions
#
rhiaro eprodrom: that means the context we have been using is valid?
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: the one on the draft is served directly from w3c with correct CORS headers, so now you can take examples from the spec and use them in json-ld playground and they work properly
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elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
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Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
jasnell the version of the context located at the namespace URI is based on the most recent working draft, not the editor's draft
#
rhiaro eprodrom: thanks sandro and elf-pavlik for handling that
#
jasnell just worth noting
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eprodrom ack jasnell
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell I can't speak, it's too noisy here
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jasnell I can only type
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elf-pavlik jasnell, let's discuss it after telecon?
#
rhiaro eprodrom: does that mean we need to revisit this action?
#
jasnell no, just need to update when we publish the next WD
#
rhiaro ... People who are implementing now should us ethe version in the WD
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jasnell yes
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jasnell but we should publish a new WD very soon
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elf-pavlik q+ re: using lates editor draft via rawgit
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro ... If you care about json-ld
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rhiaro ... Thanks
#
jasnell let's put publishing a new WD on next weeks agenda. I can have it ready for review by friday
#
rhiaro ... If we have a new URI for the next version, can we start this process now so we dont' have this problem in the future?
#
jasnell didnt hear the question sorry
#
tantek does JSON-LD fail to handle redirects of context URIs?
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jasnell yes likely
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rhiaro ... so that when we got to WD it's already valid
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harry General best practice is to use editors draft in most WGs
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jasnell I'll work with Sando and Elf
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rhiaro ... Shoudl we keep action 14 open or start a new action?
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jasnell no preference on that
#
tantek having a stable context URI seems like a simple thing - is this really blocking AS2?
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aaronpk notes the telcon is almost more efficient when everyone except the chair is typing :P
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eprodrom ACTION jasnell work with Sandro and Elf Pavlik to set up new context URI
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot Error finding 'jasnell'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
#
jasnell my user id is jsnell
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eprodrom ACTION jsnell work with Sandro and Elf Pavlik to set up new context URI
#
trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
#
trackbot Created ACTION-63 - Work with sandro and elf pavlik to set up new context uri [on James Snell - due 2015-05-19].
#
elf-pavlik q?
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... Other issues and/or actions?
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elf-pavlik q=
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Zakim elf-pavlik, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
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elf-pavlik q-
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell for AS2, we need to discuss the audience targeting
#
jasnell we deferred it from last week
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rhiaro ... In previous telecons we've gone over raised issues, but that's been controversial. What I'd like to do is do that at the end of the agenda if we have time
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cwebber2 +1 on that approach
#
rhiaro ... Any objections?
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elf-pavlik +1
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tantek audience targeting sounds so marketingy
#
cwebber2 tantek: haha, yeah I didn't notice that
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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aaronpk thinks that is actually a marketing term
#
aaronpk q+ that was me
#
Zakim aaronpk, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
#
rhiaro TOPIC: Approving user stories
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tantek any chance of picking a *social* term rather than marketing?
#
harry Updating context uri is trivial now we have its contents settled.
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aaronpk Zakim:, unmute me
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aaronpk Zakim, unmute me
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Zakim aaronpk should no longer be muted
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cwebber2 tantek: http://www.millennialmedia.com/solutions/advertiser/targeting
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tantek cwebber2: yeah, sad :(
#
Loqi it'll be ok
#
rhiaro aaronpk: I thought the IG was goign to be working on sorting through user stories more, but wasn't sure where that left off, and feels like it's stalled
#
elf-pavlik q+ re: IG and user stories
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Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... Came up during the f2f that it seemed weird we had only 1 approved user story and that it was complex one
#
rhiaro ... Want to make sure we get that moving again
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aaronpk Zakim, mute me
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Zakim aaronpk should now be muted
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tantek SWAT0 is not complex - not from a user point of view.
#
rhiaro eprodrom: I felt like we reached a point with our user stories where we had the round of proposing them, had some discussion, then voted. And we kind of stalled at what does a vote/+/- mean?
#
tantek does everyone here know what SWAT0 stands for?
#
harry Seems obvious to approve all stories where we have consensus (no negatives)
#
rhiaro ... Ben did a fantastic job of sorting the user stories based on their level of support
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eprodrom https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories
#
rhiaro ... I feel like that's probably as far as we need to go with this
#
bblfish SWAT0: Social Web Asid Test 0
#
Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-12]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84091&oldid=84090
#
rhiaro ... Unless we need to dig down into minor or few objections
#
tantek "Acid Test" means it is testing a bunch of different things - it's supposed be non-trivial to implement
#
tantek based on long history of web related acid tests
#
rhiaro ... From my pov I'm happy taking the sorting that we have here and use that as our guide in evaluation
#
jasnell tantek: no no, audience targeting in this context has nothing to do with marketing
#
bblfish Q?
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk q+q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik, q+ on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... But if we want to say everything that's positive or positive+neutral are our user stories, I'm fine with that
#
Zakim -Tsyesika
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eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim unmutes elf-pavlik
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harry See CSS acid test
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss IG and user stories
#
Zakim sees q+ on the speaker queue
#
tantek jasnell: doesn't matter - the term invokes marketing, thus it's misleading
#
elf-pavlik https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
#
aaronpk q+
#
Zakim sees q+, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro elf-pavlik: we started a repo on the IG for discussing issues around user stories that don't have full support
#
rhiaro ... I think we can continue with sorted list from top to bottom, whenever there's an issue we can createa new issue
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim q-q+
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ben_thatmustbeme q-q+
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... We can publish notes so we have an official set of 20-25 user stories with stable URIs
#
rhiaro ... We can use them as references in implementations, and proposals for implementations
#
tantek why not start with fewer rather than more?
#
rhiaro ... As peopel tried to implement them there were some ambiguities found
#
Zakim +??P8
#
rhiaro ... So I encourage everyone to use this repo to file issues to clarify and approve user stories
#
tantek ^^ that's a good reason to start with fewer
#
Tsyesika Zakim, ??P8 is me
#
Zakim +Tsyesika; got it
#
rhiaro ... Then we have a document we can refer to
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
eprodrom q?
#
Tsyesika Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim Tsyesika should now be muted
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
bblfish makes sense to me
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk ack aaronpk
#
Zakim unmutes aaronpk
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom ack aaronpk
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro aaronpk: I think it's important to have a set of approved stories just so otuside observers see more than one
#
tantek if you need simpler user stories to start implementing, start with the ones that were nearly all +1s
#
rhiaro ... This already came up at the f2f
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories
#
tantek I think we should avoid or wait on user stories that are mostly 0s
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... It would be valuable to approve some limited set that we all agree on them, not necessarilya ll of them
#
rhiaro ... Before we do that we need to resolve some of the ambiguity
#
bblfish q+
#
rhiaro eprodrom: another round of voting?
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
tantek I have the feeling that many folks voted 0 on stories they didn't want to oppose (out of politeness)
#
rhiaro ... One thing we could do is a proposal ..
#
tantek 0 = lack of strong interest
#
tantek so it shouldn't be "approved"
#
eprodrom PROPOSED: accept all user stories that are entirely positive or positive/neutral as official user stories
#
tantek -1 not strict enough
#
rhiaro aaronpk: I would be more comfortable with accepting all +1s to keep the list smaller for now
#
rhiaro eprodrom: why does it need to be smaller?
#
tantek see above
#
rhiaro aaronpk: going to take a long time to get everyone to agree on all the 0s
#
rhiaro ... a lot of people voted 0 ont hings they weren't sure about
#
ben_thatmustbeme q+
#
Zakim sees bblfish, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
tantek right, that too
#
rhiaro eprodrom: +0 means I don't care, it does not matter
#
jasnell I'd agree with that. For the initial round, let's approve the ones that are only +1, then revisit the ones with 0's to see
#
rhiaro ... 'I do not object'
#
elf-pavlik eprodrom, let's start with all positive and next telecon we can try adding those with netural
#
jasnell the ones with all +1's are no brainers
#
rhiaro ... I would rather have all positives in
#
tantek the f2f proved that user stories have ambiguities that need resolution, and only by going through them as implementers can they be resolved
#
eprodrom PROPOSED: accept all user stories that are entirely positive as official user stories
#
tantek thus fewer is better
#
elf-pavlik +1
#
eprodrom tantek, strong disagreement there
#
tantek URL?
#
jasnell define "entirely positive" please
#
ben_thatmustbeme +1
#
elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories
#
aaronpk jasnell: stories with only +1 votes
#
rhiaro ... fewer is better but I believe that we have a job to do and just trying to artificially reduce it to fewer I disagree with
#
tantek more specifically: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories#Entirely_Positive
#
elf-pavlik 7 stories + SWAT0
#
jasnell with that definition, +1
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees bblfish, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... Accept all entirely positive, and then further reivew sorted list
#
rhiaro aaronpk: my only hesitation is ambiguities in the way they were written
#
harry +1
#
rhiaro ... Dont' know the right way to resolve these
#
rhiaro ... They're minor
#
elf-pavlik q+ re: resovling ambiguities
#
Zakim sees bblfish, ben_thatmustbeme, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 +1
#
rhiaro ... Could just be askign writer of stories their intent
#
harry Zakim, code?
#
Zakim the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
#
cwebber2 aaronpk: raise them on-list maybe?
#
jasnell for the ones with 0, it would be helpful to understand why they are 0
#
rhiaro eprodrom: which ones do you want to resolve?
#
tantek problem is difference of methodologies: incremental, vs. take on too much, never get anything done
#
cwebber2 and we can get agreements and then edits to the wiki?
#
rhiaro aaronpk: I think only two places I had a question
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, please use https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
#
jasnell it's not useful to officially stamp a user story that very few people have interest implementing
#
rhiaro ... okay to do this right now?
#
rhiaro eprodrom: proposal first
#
jasnell even if they don't have objections to the user story itself
#
elf-pavlik q-
#
Zakim sees bblfish, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk +1
#
eprodrom ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, aaronpk, jasnell, bblfish, Arnaud, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), wilkie, Tsyesika (muted)
#
Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
#
rhiaro bblfish: In the f2f we had a number of stories that revealed strenghts of different ways of doing things
#
tantek jasnell + 1 for "it's not useful to officially stamp a user story that very few people have interest implementing"
#
rhiaro ... some of the -1s were comments such as 'something cannot be done' or is 'too difficult'
#
aaronpk agreed with jasnell there
#
harry Maybe just aim for ones with majority +1?
#
tantek why not approve only a few for now?
#
tantek what's the rush?
#
tantek we can approve more later
#
aaronpk current proposal is the 7 that are only +1 votes which seems like a good start
#
rhiaro ... one way of reducing stories is, for example in the meeting peopel wrote up stories in detail using their protocols. That helps reduce stories a lot, we had only 4/5/6 written up, it's a lot of work
#
rhiaro ... When one writes them up like this one realises implications
#
rhiaro ... Getting entirely positives seems reasonable
#
tantek there should be a bit of an implementation challenge, if you can't make progress on SWAT0 and the first 7 user stories, then you shouldn't be advocating for MORE user stories :P
#
harry Yep, approve the all +1s now, more later if needed
#
aaronpk i think the rest of them need to be gone through like a few of us did before the f2f before we can accept more use stories
#
tantek let's raise the bar here
#
rhiaro eprodrom: proposal right now is to approve entirely positives as 'official'
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme q-
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek make it based on progress, rather than politics
#
rhiaro ... So we have some working through of the rest to do?
#
elf-pavlik reminder PROPOSED: accept all user stories that are entirely positive as official user stories
#
eprodrom ack ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim unmutes ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek and if no one bothers to go through the remaining user stories to clarify or attempt implementing, then clearly there is insufficient interest to accept them.
#
tantek vote with your code
#
rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: the entirely +1 and some 0 are really minor minor point that could be corrected with a couple of lines
#
rhiaro ... but I would not want to make them officially approved until we've got the *best* wording we all agree on
#
tantek yes the "some 0 are really minor minor point that could be corrected with a couple of lines" was what the IG was supposed to drive to resolution
#
rhiaro ... it's not that people were saying they weren't planning on implementing, but that they were good with minor quibbles
#
tantek have heard anything back from the IG about that?
#
rhiaro eprodrom: I'm not sure what the resolution fo a 0 is
#
bblfish +1
#
tantek has the IG resolved any of the 0s on any of the user stories?
#
rhiaro ... do we try to make someone care about them? Do we push them to commit in one way or another?
#
rhiaro ... I would like to leave it open, maybe one way we can progress is to approve the top ones
#
rhiaro ... ask everyoen to re-review user stories
#
elf-pavlik sounds good!
#
rhiaro ... and next week propose approving the next group
#
rhiaro ... sound reasonable?
#
tantek e.g. a resolution could be via a github issue regarding the "0", discussion on that issue, and determining either the flaw in the user story, or a clarification / reduction in scope that would turn the "0" into a "1".
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
eprodrom +1
#
rhiaro votes please
#
cwebber2 +1
#
ben_thatmustbeme +1
#
rhiaro +1
#
jasnell +1
#
elf-pavlik +1
#
Tsyesika +1
#
aaronpk +1
#
tantek where's the proposal?
#
elf-pavlik reminder PROPOSED: accept all user stories that are entirely positive as official user stories
#
bblfish so the action is to look at the next batch next week
#
eprodrom PROPOSED: accept all user stories that are entirely positive as official user stories
#
tantek +1
#
aaronpk as linked here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories#Entirely_Positive
#
jasnell with an action on everyone to review that next batch and determine if the 0 votes can made explicitly -1 or +1
#
elf-pavlik q+ to remind clarification workflow
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
bblfish Btw. +0 means - there were 70 user stories, and this did not look like I could be bothered about it
#
eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim unmutes elf-pavlik
#
harry dialing in now on very expensive long distance
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to remind clarification workflow
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues
#
tantek for the others, I'd rather not waste time discussing them on telcon until efforts have been made async to resolve the 0s
#
jasnell I would argue that, if someone is +-0 to a user story, they really ought to be -1 on making it an official user story
#
tantek e.g. push those back to the IG
#
rhiaro elf-pavlik: in IG we're using this github repo to discuss clarifications, changes etc
#
tantek jasnell is right
#
rhiaro ... I would like everyone to use repo to clarify ambiguities
#
rhiaro ... before next week discuss those that have 0s
#
bblfish elf-pavlik: can you put a link to this in the right place? Perahps on the front page of the WG - if it is not already there
#
Zakim -Arnaud
#
rhiaro ... I think this is the best place to discuss for everyone
#
Zakim +harry
#
tantek why "before next week" ?
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim elf-pavlik should now be muted
#
tantek who is pressuing this rush?
#
rhiaro eprodrom: we're goign to try to do this next week
#
Arnaud shoot.. lost phone connection
#
tantek why?
#
wilkie yeah, just focus on the +1 user stories. that doesn't mean implementations can't do those and also some of the +0s too
#
eprodrom tantek, can you join the queue if this is normative discussion?
#
tantek what wilkie said
#
eprodrom Or just backchannel?
#
elf-pavlik q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
tantek q+ to say no need to rush evaluation of remaining user stories, that's the IGs job to process
#
Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom Again, I'll assume that if you're not on the queue, typing in IRC is just backchannel
#
rhiaro eprodrom: I'm assuming if you're typing in IRC it's just backchannel if you're nt on q
#
eprodrom ack tantek
#
Zakim tantek, you wanted to say no need to rush evaluation of remaining user stories, that's the IGs job to process
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, unmute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should no longer be muted
#
tantek and if anyone wants to push a particular user story, build it, and do a walk through as folks did for the f2f
#
tantek those were very useful writeups
#
rhiaro eprodrom: we just had a vote
#
elf-pavlik +1 tantek
#
tantek no need to waste telcon time on this
#
rhiaro ... we did have the voting and writeup process
#
aaronpk q+ to support the build/walkthrough of user stories before we approve any more
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
rhiaro ... I'd rather not ignore them
#
tantek everyone can pursue making user stories work that they think are interesting
#
rhiaro ... Lots of them are very good
#
tantek no need to waste everyone's time on mostly "0" stories
#
tantek or worse
#
rhiaro ... That is discussion for next week
#
elf-pavlik tantek i plan to take exacly such approach :) https://github.com/elf-pavlik/hypermedia-examples/tree/master/user-stories/offering-asparagus
#
Zakim +Arnaud
#
tantek it's only ignoring if no one codes them
#
eprodrom tantek, That's a discussion for next week, unless you wantt to explicitly say that these aren't in bounds at all
#
tantek or no one writes them up
#
tantek the way people did for the f2f
#
eprodrom tantek, they are all written up
#
eprodrom And all got +1s and some 0s
#
tantek no they're not
#
tantek not like at the f2f
#
rhiaro eprodrom: you talk, I can scribe you
#
tantek that's the point
#
tantek that's how progress was made at the f2f
#
rhiaro eprodrom: We just decied to approve these
#
tantek if you care about a user story, do a write up of how your implementation does it, the way aaronpk and others did for the f2f
#
tantek no need for the group to discuss that
#
rhiaro ... We just made a decision based on the votes
#
tantek and if no one does any such write-ups then that indicates people don't care about a user story
#
aaronpk q?
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... we had all +1s
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme RESOLVED: accept all user stories that are entirely positive as official user stories
#
eprodrom ack aaronpk
#
Zakim aaronpk, you wanted to support the build/walkthrough of user stories before we approve any more
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro RESOLVED: approve all +1 user stories
#
jasnell for the batch that just got approved, an action should be taken to write up additional detail for each, make sure they are clear
#
Zakim -Tsyesika
#
tantek and yes we should IGNORE any user stories that no one wants to put the energy into implementing or clarifying
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, aaronpk, jasnell, bblfish, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), wilkie, harry, Arnaud
#
tantek that's a very good filter
#
Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
#
rhiaro aaronpk: For any *more* user stories I'm not compfortable approving them if there are any 0s *unless* someone has done a protocol writeup or built it
#
rhiaro ... Doing that myself gave me a much better understanding of the details of the stories, in a way I did not get when I read it the first time and voted +1
#
elf-pavlik +1 aaronpk
#
rhiaro ... So even though I voted +1 on some I did not have the understanding of them until after I did the writeup
#
jasnell +1 aaronpk
#
tantek I'll note that this includes a few user stories that I myself proposed. So it's tough work for everyone.
#
cwebber2 not for all of them
#
rhiaro eprodrom: I want to confirm, did we have writes ups for all with +1s?
#
Zakim +??P8
#
rhiaro aaronpk: no, only 3 or 4 of them
#
Tsyesika Zakim, ??P8 is me
#
Zakim +Tsyesika; got it
#
Tsyesika Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim Tsyesika should now be muted
#
cwebber2 I do agree with aaronpk that doing the mapping write-up does help clarify a lot
#
rhiaro eprodrom: so we just confirmed some that weren't written up
#
jasnell let's propose an action to require a write up for all of the just approved user stories
#
tantek eprodrom, because the others all have doubts
#
rhiaro ... if that's the bar we want to set that's fine, but we *already* wrote them up and voted, so seems kind of high
#
elf-pavlik q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
jasnell note, we can have another vote to remove a user story from the list if it becomes obvious that no one intends to implement it
#
tantek existence of doubts = higher burden of approval
#
rhiaro aaronpk: the reason I'm hesitant is because for all the rest somebody had a doubt
#
ben_thatmustbeme q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro eprodrom: 0 represents don't care, not doubt
#
rhiaro ... these are ones everyone was positive or neutral on
#
rhiaro ... Not sure writeups are a good way to spend our time
#
tantek we learned from the protocol walk through s that "*already* wrote them up and voted" is insufficient eprodrom
#
rhiaro ... Next item on agenda
#
ben_thatmustbeme q-
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik q-
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek that's the point - we got that out of the f2f
#
jasnell some level of expanded detail is going to be the only way we can verify that we've actually met the case
#
aaronpk Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim aaronpk should now be muted
#
rhiaro TOPIC: Starting work on a brainstorming a joint Social API FPWD
#
tantek since we have learned that, we shouldn't blindly go by what we thought we knew before
#
cwebber2 aaronpk: effectively not everything is going to get impmlemented from the user stories, maybe we should be doing more refinement as we go through implementation?
#
rhiaro eprodrom: harry can you say something?
#
elf-pavlik tantek, aaronpk you can simply warn people that you will -1 stories which don't have implementation walk through
#
eprodrom harry, ?
#
cwebber2 ie, maybe the list we have is a good list that's mostly sorted, and as we implement we can come back and possibly challenge some of them
#
Zakim -harry
#
cwebber2 and find which ones we've hit a union of implementation in between our implementations
#
ben_thatmustbeme note btw, that 0s did not represent don't care much of the time.... they would often have commentary explaining it
#
rhiaro ... I'll try to address this while we wait for harry
#
Zakim +harry
#
tantek cwebber2, yes, I agree with incremental progress based on implementation demand, not basd on "next telcon"
#
aaronpk cwebber2: +1 for incremental progress!
#
rhiaro ... harry go ahead
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, who is on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, aaronpk (muted), jasnell, bblfish, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), wilkie, Arnaud, Tsyesika (muted), harry
#
Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
#
rhiaro eprodrom: giving up on harry
#
bblfish harry has telecommunication problems
#
rhiaro ... harry proposed in order for us to get to FPWD for the API would be to develop a joint draft basedon 3 candidates
#
rhiaro ... and neutral editors
#
rhiaro ... idea was to come up with opinions on that
#
rhiaro ... one thing we could do today is have a resolution of deciding that's a way we can go forward
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2 -q
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... wold like to open up for discussion
#
cwebber2 nope
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's making noise?
#
cwebber2 though maybe I will be, but I want to understand the topic better :)
#
Zakim elf-pavlik, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: eprodrom (63%), harry (17%)
#
rhiaro ... idea is to have a consensus FPWD
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute harry
#
Zakim harry should now be muted
#
cwebber2 is this for an intersection of the implementations, or?
#
Zakim -harry
#
cwebber2 sure
#
cwebber2 +q
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom ack cwebber2
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom ack cwebber
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro we could hear you for a second cwebber2
#
cwebber2 oh
#
cwebber2 I accidentally hung up
#
bblfish no can't hear cwebber2
#
Tsyesika i can't hear him either
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, aaronpk (muted), jasnell, bblfish, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), wilkie, Arnaud, Tsyesika (muted)
#
rhiaro cwebber2 yes
#
ben_thatmustbeme yes
#
Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
#
rhiaro cwebber2: is this an intersection of the implementations? Seems like this is coming off the end of the f2f where it seemed liek there was optimism that there is convergence?
#
rhiaro ... Is that what we're talking about?
#
rhiaro eprodrom: yes, idea to come up with a FPWD basedon that work
#
cwebber2 heh :)
#
cwebber2 sorry :)
#
tantek note that optimism that there is convergence != convergence itself
#
rhiaro ... and that we would have 'neutral' editors, not implying we're not working to same goal
#
tantek better to continue with optimism and separate iteration
#
rhiaro ... I like this concept, I"m not thrilled with a strict intersection
#
tantek rather than jump to conclusions prematurely
#
cwebber2 +q
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
tantek I think what we have now is "working"
#
rhiaro ... at this point that would be 'use http'
#
tantek so let's not mess with it for now
#
bblfish q?
#
Zakim sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
bblfish Q+
#
Zakim sees cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... but maybe some kind of resolution of the three proposals
#
cwebber2 this is new
#
tantek in the hopes that we see *more* incremental convergence
#
eprodrom ack cwebber
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik q+
#
Zakim sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
jasnell one document, three sections, one for each proposal. should be straightforward
#
bblfish do we have two cwebber's?
#
jasnell then we can work on consolidating
#
tantek rather than prematurely forcing some form of hybrid mess
#
tantek jasnell - sorry to say but that's a horrible idea
#
rhiaro cwebber2: having talked to tsyesika and rhiaro after last f2f and both seemed very optimistic that there was a lot of opportunity for intersection
#
rhiaro ... I do agree with evan that with the current state of proposals we don't have a lot of intersection, but seemed liek a lot of optimism from aaronpk rhiaro and tsyesika and also sandro
#
tantek if there's so much opportunity for iteration and convergence, let each draft do so independently
#
tantek and at its own pace
#
rhiaro ... that there is a triange of overlap
#
rhiaro ... I think what might be interesting is to see more technical overlap and prove that this can happen
#
tantek let separate documents copy each other at will
#
tantek rather than forcing anything into one document
#
jasnell separate docs works fine too. I don't really care so long as something get's written down that we can start iterating on
#
tantek premature/forced convergence is the fastest way to kill the progress we're making
#
rhiaro ... I'd rather not get stuck forever trying to figure out the intersection, but would like opportunity to see if that could happen
#
rhiaro ... don't want it to hold us up from implementation for too long
#
ben_thatmustbeme i would agree with tantek, start with sepearte versions. maybe keep an idea toward future convergance
#
tantek there is no "hold us up from implementati
#
rhiaro ... proposal would be for the members who felt like they were hitting convergence could write up, and show we're all on the same page
#
rhiaro ... I wonder how much could be done over the enxt couple of weeks to try to hit that convergence, so we have a sensible timeline and have this opportunity to progress this?
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
tantek joined the channel
#
rhiaro bblfish: I agree with that
#
rhiaro ... There should be proposals for development
#
rhiaro ... We should keep in mind we need to finish this, so we should see how many existing specs we can use so we reinvent as little as possible
#
rhiaro ... I'm happy to put forward some convergence ideas
#
tantek if you're spec-ing without implementing, you're likely doing something wrong
#
rhiaro eprodrom: from the mailing list harry proposed a group come together to work on a document
#
rhiaro ... aaronpk, rhiaro and tsyesika agreed
#
rhiaro ... there was a quesiton on who would step up from SoLiD
#
aaronpk can't we spec while implementing?
#
rhiaro ... wold you step up?
#
rhiaro bblfish: I'm trying to do all kinds of things
#
rhiaro ... We can line up things in a sketchy way
#
rhiaro ... To see what fits without going all the way to writing a document
#
rhiaro ... like agile programming
#
rhiaro ... we need to know where we're going, which parts look like they fit together and identify those then have discussions around that, to go forward
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim unmutes elf-pavlik
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik harry go first!
#
tantek note that micropub, microformats, webmention etc. were all simultaneously spec'd and implemented - that kind of back/forth iteration keeps thing real and minimal
#
ben_thatmustbeme i think i lost audio
#
tantek instead of academic and bloated
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim elf-pavlik was already muted, elf-pavlik
#
elf-pavlik q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro harry: I was thinking that we grab three people, one from each proposal and a neutral editor, and over next week peopel can learn respec
#
jasnell I can offer help with respec also
#
rhiaro ... we can start a sketchy document on common points of convergence
#
rhiaro ... so we have something to start working on
#
rhiaro ... It's good to push forward
#
Arnaud we haven't heard back from sandro
#
rhiaro eprodrom: main objections are worry that we put together a frankenstein monstor of incompatible features
#
rhiaro ... I'm concerned an intersection would not be very complete
#
bblfish q+
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
Tsyesika it might be a good base to build off though?
#
rhiaro ... What's next steps for document after it's written?
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro harry: we should try intersection, then see if we get convergence as we move outwards witha pproved user stories
#
rhiaro ... if we make progress in a couple of months we can try to get consensus on (??) level
#
rhiaro ... we can get implementations, and revisit strong and weak points with editors
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro ... and help from other people on github
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim ben_thatmustbeme was already muted, ben_thatmustbeme
#
eprodrom ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim unmutes elf-pavlik
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro eprodrom: will put a proposal up
#
rhiaro harry: also depends on free time of editors, to find people who have time to commit to work on the document
#
rhiaro elf-pavlik: having this attempt to find convergence doesn't limit other people to develop their specs independantly
#
rhiaro ... if someone was looking for common ground this is a great idea I will support and participate in
#
rhiaro ... if people want to put more time independantly to develop their spec there is still space for that
#
rhiaro ... I don't think those efforts exclude ach other
#
rhiaro ... I would prioritise implementing things we already all agree on
#
elf-pavlik Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim elf-pavlik was already muted, elf-pavlik
#
rhiaro ... everyone voluntarily contributes, if editors of other specs can dedicate time to look for convergence that's great
#
eprodrom q?
#
Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro harry: the point is to start with making it clear what we already agree on
#
eprodrom ack bblfish
#
Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, who is on the call?
#
Zakim sees on the phone: eprodrom, aaronpk (muted), jasnell, bblfish, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), wilkie, Arnaud, Tsyesika (muted)
#
elf-pavlik +1 harry
#
Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
#
rhiaro bblfish: perhaps we can also work out points of converance on mailing list so we get feedback from group about what makes sense
#
rhiaro ... we can have a thread on the list for finding points of convergence
#
rhiaro ... think about two things that could go together, and people can push back if they know what works
#
eprodrom PROPOSED: aaronpk, Tsyesika, and sandro to work with rhiaro to develop a convergence document
#
elf-pavlik +1
#
rhiaro eprodrom: should we put a timebox on this document
#
rhiaro ... four weeks from now?
#
elf-pavlik SoLiD :D
#
tantek -1
#
rhiaro harry: I'd say see how it goes. A few weeks for a first draft. Would like to see something solid in 2 months
#
cwebber2 can we try to push for some actual objectives
#
jasnell +0.5 ... don't think it needs to be one document but as long as *something* get's written down
#
cwebber2 again, I think a minimal objective could be "common format"
#
aaronpk to be clear, this is not a proposal about writing the converged spec, right?
#
cwebber2 to be posted between instances
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eprodrom PROPOSED: aaronpk, Tsyesika, and sandro to work with rhiaro to develop a convergence document with first draft by 9 June
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cwebber2 +1
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rhiaro eprodrom: this is about writing a convergance document
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tantek -1 we're not going to make progress by forcing converged documents with artificial dates
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Arnaud again, we haven't heard from sandro, have we?
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elf-pavlik +1
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bblfish +1
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aaronpk can you please define "convergence document"?
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Tsyesika +1
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tantek counter proposal is to keep iterating the documents separately
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elf-pavlik Bearer token
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elf-pavlik follow your nose
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jasnell absolutely disagree tantek: having *something* written down is better than having nothing written down. it gives us a starting point.
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rhiaro harry: systematically going through common points, what vocabulary we can agree on
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elf-pavlik etlc.
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cwebber2 aaronpk: Tsyesika: maybe you should help agree on what you think a helpful convergence doc would be
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tantek and encourage re-use of ideas back/forth
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rhiaro ... probably minimal in beginning, then we can stretch it out
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eprodrom +1
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Tsyesika cwebber2: more or less what harry just said
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cwebber2 +1
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cwebber2 okay great
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Tsyesika +1
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rhiaro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, that was discussed. this doesn't prevent seperate spec dev.
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tantek let convergence happen naturally, not by force of committee
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 72 karma
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aaronpk +1 to get *something* written down for review by people
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tantek then don't call it "a convergance document"
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eprodrom tantek, can you take the floor and make this case
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rhiaro eprodrom: can you make the case for -1
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rhiaro ... also, the people who are named in this proposal, could you speak up about working on this doc even if this propoasl doesn't go through?
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rhiaro ... tantek?
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rhiaro ... can you expand on your -1?
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tantek q+ to say "a convergance document" is the absolute wrong framing and premature risks the progress we've made. Instead encourage rapid iteration of separate documents (what we're already doing) and borrowing/sharing of ideas.
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Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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rhiaro eprodrom: we have 3/4 peopel who want to work on this document
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cwebber2 tantek: I think we're still planning on doing that
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eprodrom ack tantek
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Zakim tantek, you wanted to say "a convergance document" is the absolute wrong framing and premature risks the progress we've made. Instead encourage rapid iteration of separate
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Zakim ... documents (what we're already doing) and borrowing/sharing of ideas.
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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jasnell fine, don't call it a "convergence document"... call it "an initial bunch of ideas written down that we can start iterating on"
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tantek cwebber2, then do just the independent iteration - there's no rush for a convergence document
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eprodrom tantek, counterproposal?
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rhiaro eprodrom: counter proposal?
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tantek above
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Arnaud zakim, who's on the phone?
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Zakim On the phone I see eprodrom, aaronpk (muted), jasnell, bblfish, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), elf-pavlik (muted), wilkie, Arnaud, Tsyesika (muted)
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Zakim aaronpk has aaronpk, rhiaro
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Arnaud sandro isn't on the call
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eprodrom tantek, can you phrase it as a proposal?
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tantek counter PROPOSAL: encourage rapid iteration of separate documents (what we're already doing) and borrowing/sharing of ideas. let convergence happen naturally, not by force of committee.
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rhiaro ... tantek, can you phrase as proposal please?
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rhiaro tantek, I think that's how it would happen anyway
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ben_thatmustbeme I think it is useful to list out the places where we are making convergance, thats is really all we are talking about
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aaronpk I do want to get something written down working with Tsyesika rhiaro and sandro
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elf-pavlik we can +1 both, they don't exclude each other
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rhiaro eprodrom: this isn't an either/or
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tantek rhiaro: if that's how it would happen anyway then no reason to VOTE on something additional
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aaronpk just so that these ideas after the f2f are not only in our heads
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rhiaro harry: I do expect that the three separate documents would continue iterating
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tantek rhiaro, you just justified a -1 vote for eprodrom proposal
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rhiaro ... be good to record convergence
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bblfish agree this does not seem to be an either or
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bblfish so we could all +1 both
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cwebber2 yes, and I intend to move into implementation phase anyway
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cwebber2 on the activitypump document
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jasnell Proposal: let's not worry on exactly how many documents are actually written and focus on just getthing *something* written
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cwebber2 so I don't think they're totally at odds
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rhiaro tantek, then I +1 both
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tantek jasnell, something *has* been written
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cwebber2 +1 to both :)
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elf-pavlik +1 both
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tantek that's the point - let's not get distracted by an academic convergence document
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rhiaro eprodrom: vote on tantek and jasnell's proposals?
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eprodrom -1 to tantek, +1 to jasnell
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rhiaro +1 to just getting things done
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bblfish +1 to tantek, +1 to jasnell
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tantek +1 to just keep getting things done
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aaronpk +1 to just keep shipping shipping shipping
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Tsyesika +1 getting things done is good
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cwebber2 I'm confused as to what some of those votes are
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ben_thatmustbeme this is getting really abiguous
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rhiaro harry: we *are* supposed to converge on a spec eventually
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eprodrom RESOLVED: let's not worry on exactly how many documents are actually written and focus on just getthing *something* written
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Tsyesika mhm
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tantek has to go
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rhiaro I'm +1 for writing a document about convergence of apis
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elf-pavlik +1 rhiaro
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rhiaro ... so we'll just get some documents written
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aaronpk !meme just keep shipping shipping shipping [http://www.cinemablend.com/images/news_img/38938/Finding_Dory_38938.jpg]
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4b71h28S.jpg
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ben_thatmustbeme thats the oddest resolution i have seen
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rhiaro ... I'd like to ask tsyesika, aaronpk, rhiaro and sandro to work on a document if you'd like to do so
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bblfish :D
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cwebber2 plus one on good things are good
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eprodrom Yeah, I don't feel like it says much
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Tsyesika cwebber2: indeed :)
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elf-pavlik ciao all o/ thanks eprodrom for chairing and rhiaro for scribing
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cwebber2 http://www.theonion.com/article/john-edwards-vows-to-end-all-bad-things-by-2011-2235
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bblfish well it seems its ok to get a convergence document going, since it's a document
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cwebber2 hm we need to end the call right? how to do that again?
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eprodrom cwebber2, I'll do it
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bblfish I think when everyone leaves
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eprodrom trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim As of this point the attendees have been eprodrom, +1.503.278.aaaa, jasnell, bblfish, Arnaud, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme, elf-pavlik, aaronpk, rhiaro, wilkie, Tsyesika, harry
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/12-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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cwebber2 eprodrom: ping, before you leave
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cwebber2 wanted to talk about implementations of activitypump and what your plan is
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cwebber2 if you have a moment
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harry I will send an email on next steps to detail and document any points of convergence
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cwebber2 harry: great, thanks
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eprodrom cwebber2: pong
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eprodrom What's up
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cwebber2 eprodrom: ah, I just saw your Go repository, I just thought I'd ask what your plans were and how we might coordinate
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eprodrom Ah, right
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eprodrom Yes, Tsyesika had talked about doing a common implementation
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eprodrom We threw up the idea of starting something that could work with in-memory storage that we could test against
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cwebber2 eprodrom: aha
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eprodrom So I started https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump-server
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Tsyesika i need to find some time to learn some go and do some work on that
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eprodrom yeah, I thought it'd be fun to work on new language
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'd be interested in writing something that saves activitystreams to postgres' jsonb maybe
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eprodrom cwebber2, that sounds great but
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oshepherd I spent about 2 hours working with Go the other day and decided I hated it >_<
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eprodrom ohno
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cwebber2 maybe can make the storage system an interface?
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eprodrom Sure
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eprodrom But I was hoping not to over-architect
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cwebber2 eprodrom "sounds great but"?
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cwebber2 aha :)
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cwebber2 makes sense
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eprodrom And just make a sample server that does the minimum possible
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cwebber2 eprodrom: well, speaking of not over-architecting
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cwebber2 do you think we'll need json-ld support as part of it?
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eprodrom Ummm, I dunno
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eprodrom I'm not even sure what that would mean
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cwebber2 because maybe using a language that already has jsonld support would be good if so, the jsonld specs I've looked at are not trivial
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oshepherd If the answer is "yes" something has gone worng with the AS2 spec
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cwebber2 okay
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cwebber2 heh
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eprodrom I'm not really married to Go but I thought it would be a good carrot to get us to work on something
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cwebber2 eprodrom: ok, I can learn Go. I also considered doing something in Racket or Guile. I know you don't like python so I figure that's out :)
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eprodrom No, that's fine
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eprodrom If doing something in Python means we get this done then fine
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cwebber2 (doing something in a non-python language could be kinda nice tho)
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eprodrom I guess what I'd like to avoid is doing anything production ready
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eprodrom Because then the temptation is to make it work too well
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cwebber2 eprodrom: gotcha
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eprodrom Something that's about the level of a mock is where I was shooting
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cwebber2 ok!
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harry +1 Go
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eprodrom Does that sound like the right first step?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'm good with that direction
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eprodrom Tsyesika, does an API mock in Python sound good to you?
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cwebber2 if we're doing an api mock in python, are we going to use an http-only framework like Django or use something with an event loop like asyncio?
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eprodrom Or would you like to work on Racket, ES6, Go or Rust?
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cwebber2 I'm also okay with learning something new :)
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eprodrom cwebber2: ideally I'd like something with no difficult dependencies or setup
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eprodrom Something that works in just a few modules would be nice too
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oshepherd Whatever you do, I'd say it should be at least "conventional" - i.e. I'd say avoid something like Racket because you want the sample impl to be readable to a wide audience
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cwebber2 I know Tsyesika eventually wants a Django implementation so she can put it on her website
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eprodrom Right
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eprodrom That's where the temptation gets high
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cwebber2 oshepherd: I guess not everybody likes a sea of parentheses (I do ;))
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eprodrom Like, "We've done all this work on the prototype, let's not throw it away..."
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cwebber2 eprodrom: gotcha
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eprodrom Instead of, like, "Here's a throwaway ~2K loc that responds more or less what we say to do in the spec that you can use to test clients"
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aaronpk +1 to minimal examples
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oshepherd KISS, whatever you pick :)
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cwebber2 eprodrom: okay, thanks for talking this through. I'm okay with continuing with Go if you're excited about it. Python also sounds like a good route. Let's toss the parenthesis heavy language options away then
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aaronpk adactio wrote a "minimum viable micropub" server and posted it in a gist, which came in super handy for several people at indiewebcamp this weekend!
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Tsyesika cwebber2: i essencially don't mind, i can try hacking on something with Go, i mean if it's a language i'm not so famailiar with i'll do less as more of my time will go to learning the language
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cwebber2 aaronpk: +1 to "minimum viable"
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eprodrom Tsyesika, ah, that was entirely not my goal
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/adactio/8168e6b78da7b16a4644
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oshepherd Use whatever you want (and I suspect that a lot of my dislike of Go was that (A) I haven't really learned it yet, and (B) I'm a C++/Rust type person at heart and so a lot of Go philosphy rubs me up the wrong way :-))
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eprodrom When I have a project that's not core to my main work, I like to try new languages to sweeten the task
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eprodrom Like, "I don't like having to do this but at least I get to practice using a new language"
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oshepherd P.S. I love Dart for working on web stuff, client or server side
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cwebber2 I could probably toss together a very quick python scaffold for this that doesn't have a heavy framework behind it, if you want to do the "avoiding temptation to be an implementation we'll use". But then again, even using Django for the mock does mean that it's something that to a wide audience has a level of familiarity
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Tsyesika cwebber2: maybe use flask?
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cwebber2 flask would also work
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cwebber2 I like flask
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Tsyesika flask is not bad, i think it's a nice middle ground between django and writing your own framework from scratch
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cwebber2 nods
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cwebber2 if it *were* a long term approach I think I'd want somethign with an event loop
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oshepherd Have we really just spent 20 minutes bikeshedding languages?
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cwebber2 but again, if this is a mock
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cwebber2 we don't really care
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cwebber2 eprodrom: wdyt?
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cwebber2 sorry
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eprodrom awesome
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eprodrom OK, so, mock server in Python using flask?
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cwebber2 sounds good
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eprodrom Good here
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eprodrom I don't know flask so I'm getting my temptation bundling in here
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cwebber2 :)
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cwebber2 ok, should I throw together that repo plus a README on getting up and running?
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Tsyesika cwebber2: sounds good
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eprodrom http://freakonomics.com/2015/03/13/when-willpower-isnt-enough-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/
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cwebber2 okay, will do.
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eprodrom cwebber2, can you just overwrite the code in the activitypump-server repo?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: ha
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cwebber2 eprodrom: yes I could )
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cwebber2 :)
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eprodrom Since I wrote up a lot of issues
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cwebber2 oh great
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cwebber2 yes let's do that.
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eprodrom And it's not easy to move them over
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cwebber2 I'll start a branch and you can verify that it's not a direction you hate, eprodrom :)
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cwebber2 then we'll merge to master
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eprodrom https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump-server/issues
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eprodrom Awesome
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oshepherd Flask is nice and simple and probably saves you the issue of learning a new language and a new framework at once
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cwebber2 eprodrom: stellar
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eprodrom Just wallop the Go stuff and start the Flask thing
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oshepherd But yeah, if I was doing a "production" implementation I'd want something like Go or Dart or Node with an event loop
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cwebber2 yeah, eventloops++
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cwebber2 eventloops++
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Loqi eventloops has 1 karma
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eprodrom If you can configure it for memory-only storage so I don't have to set up a Riak instance or whatever I'd prefer that
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cwebber2 guess I need to do it without the "yeah"
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cwebber2 eprodrom: so just mutating a big ol' hashmap is fine?
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eprodrom +1 to hashmap
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cwebber2 cool.
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eprodrom I'm happy starting with some fake accounts in that hashmap
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I'll get on this. I might be distracted depending on when Deb sends me the stuff for the 0.8.0 mediagoblin release, but I should have it done by saturday at worst, but I think sooner.
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cwebber2 we're right at the edge of release mode
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eprodrom Right
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cwebber2 is that ok timeline wise?
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eprodrom OK, no rush obvs
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cwebber2 great
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cwebber2 whoo
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eprodrom Maybe wait till after you release
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cwebber2 cool
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cwebber2 okay, sorry for the bikeshed, but I think coordinating was helpful
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eprodrom Absolutely
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cwebber2 thanks eprodrom, Tsyesika (and oshepherd for feedback!)
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eprodrom Do I need to do anything to give you access to that repo?
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cwebber2 eprodrom: I don't think so
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eprodrom Cool
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eprodrom Send an email if it's neede
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eprodrom needed
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cwebber2 great!
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cwebber2 ok typing break, thanks again!
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eprodrom ha ha
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eprodrom all the flask examples are microblogging servers
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oshepherd eprodrom: Is there any web framework where the example isn't one of (wiki, blog, microblog)?
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eprodrom A lot of the front-end ones do TODO lists
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eprodrom It's like the hello-world of Javascript frameworks
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oshepherd Aah yeah, thats a consequence of TodoMVC I think
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oshepherd Server side frameworks its' all one of those three
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tantek is happy to see some specific implementation chatter in #social - keep it up.
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bengo Does anyone know of a background link describing the intention of "as:browserContext" mentioned in here? http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-vocabulary-20150129/#non-normative-ontology-definition
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Loqi bengo: elf-pavlik left you a message on 4/11 at 11:55pm: :+1: http://bengo.is/notes/20150411-reply.html http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-11/line/1428821701531
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bengo !tell elf-pavlik :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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