2015-05-20 UTC
bblfish, harry, tilgovi, shepazu, jasnell, stevenroose, edhelas, the_frey, the_frey_, pfefferle, tantek and jasnell_ joined the channel
# 16:27 melvster question: does the social web imply users and friends? # 16:28 melvster tantek: would love you hear your thoughts particularly on ^^ # 16:32 tantek melvster: common use of "social web" seems to imply both, yet as the same, in that you can friend/follow any user, or if their account is private, request following. # 16:32 tantek as opposed the crazy actor/profile/person distinction nonsense that somehow happened in ActivityStreams historically # 16:33 tantek melvster: that is user = author - someone that can post on a social web silo, and (request) friend/follow other users. # 16:33 tantek "actor" was a mistaken bikeshedding in activity streams # 16:33 tantek then again, now it seems "activity" was a mistaken bikeshedding for "post" # 16:34 tantek too much invention of new terms of no real world good reason # 16:34 tantek only for abstract / theoretical architecture reasons that didn't actually provide any real world use-case benefit # 16:35 melvster i dont particularly like the "actor" term either, but I suppose I can live with it # 16:37 tantek melvster: I see the "actor" problem the other way. I think AS2 (or whatever we call it) can "live with" the term "author" # 16:37 tantek the *existing* term as defined/used in Atom, then re-used in hAtom, h-entry etc. # 16:37 tantek preferring existing term that is (part of microformats methodology, minimize reinvention of such things) AnnB joined the channel
# 16:38 tantek e.g. we use h-card in microformats, based on hCard based on vCard # 16:39 tantek but the context around that can be many things # 16:39 tantek or "location" of an h-event (e.g. a nested h-card venue) # 16:39 tantek all those h-event quoted terms are from iCalendar # 16:39 tantek also not invented by microformats, but rather re-used from iCal # 16:40 AnnB BTW, "friend" seems a bit, um, friendly when considering these technologies in a business context # 16:42 tantek in my experience microformats are much better are re-using such terms from other standards than SemWeb communities, who typically seem to only re-use terms from other SemWebby vocabs/proposals - e.g. the schism of FOAF from vCard. # 16:43 tantek AnnB - sure, hence FB has "Pages" for businesses, who then instruct users to "like" or "follow" them there # 16:44 tantek right, LinkedIn has what - "Add Connection" ? # 16:44 tantek but it's essentially bidirectional "friending" # 16:44 AnnB yes, it is -- although we have both options (one-way and bi-directional) # 16:45 AnnB my point is that most of the other terms are more appropriate for business usage, then "friend" # 16:45 AnnB dang .. needs comma? # 16:45 tantek AnnB - even in the non-business social sense, there's the running cultural joke about "myspace/facebook friends" vs. "real friends" # 16:46 AnnB even more so in enterprise web # 16:46 tantek but we stick with current terms until someone has a solid proposal for something better # 16:47 AnnB since many others are not engaged in big enterprise # 16:47 tantek since big enterprise often waits for v1.1 or v2 before evaluating for internal deployment, I think we have some time ;) the_frey_ joined the channel
# 16:57 AnnB once you determine the vocabulary to be "friend" .. it will be cast in stone # 16:58 AnnB despite our slower deployment, one of the main reasons we participate is to try and educate / influence you vendors as to enterprise perspectives # 17:04 rhiaro because friending (or colleague-ing) is just bi-directional follow # 17:04 rhiaro I am currently of the opinion a one-way relation is all we need to specify tilgovi joined the channel
# 17:11 AnnB I'm in a meeting, so can't think clearly right now ;-) # 17:11 AnnB on the surface, I think "follow" works # 17:12 AnnB we have both "follow" (one-way) and "connect" (2-way), in our internal tool # 17:29 tantek rhiaro: I like your approach of starting with only "follow" # 17:29 tantek we may not need to specify anything like "connect" or "friend" # 17:30 tantek I actually like the asymmetric "allow following of me" as well, for private accounts/data (from Dopplr) stevenroose joined the channel
# 17:35 tantek rhiaro: approval maybe - I'm saying there is a less common but more desirable model as demonstrated by Dopplr # 17:35 aaronpk i plan to do some sort of approval thing to be able to grant access to private content, but totally haven't worked that out yet # 17:36 tantek aaronpk - when I get to private content I will likely design/implement a "allow follow" model instead # 17:36 tantek where I specifically grant people the option of viewing / subscribing to my private / limited ACL posts # 17:36 tantek I kinda don't want to deal with an inbox of "request follow" # 17:41 tantek melvster: I'm sorry :) I really think the email metaphor is dated and regressive. # 17:44 tantek melvster - problem is that sometimes naming things affects them actually working for users # 17:45 tantek the selfdogfood methodology helps shortcircuit this to some extent, forcing the "get things working" person to also personally feel the "actually working for users" pain or pleasure and thus adjust accordingly in a tighter loop # 17:46 melvster my inbox was specifically for payments, but SoLiD doesnt distinguish between financial data and social data # 17:46 melvster just wanted to get a working system as soon as I could # 17:47 melvster but i needed some place to send messages to another user # 17:49 tantek I dislike it because of the framing that there is an actual container where things accumulate from (potential / likely randoms) for the user # 17:49 tantek OTOH contrast with the framing of 'webmention' which basically is just an ephemeral notification that there is something on the web that mentions you, and then it is up to you whether you want to go get that or not. # 17:50 tantek it's not just changing the name but the model that requires a notion of it # 17:51 tantek even for payments, it's not clear you want to automatically accept (what inbox implies) payments from randoms # 17:53 melvster the client will later get a notification that the payment was successful bblfish joined the channel
# 17:57 tantek steps back from the block chain discussion. ;) jaywink joined the channel
# 18:32 AnnB just FYI, from a novice point of view (namely me) # 18:32 AnnB "webmention" is not intuitive, whereas "inbox" is # 18:32 AnnB in fact, I still don't really understand what "webmention" means # 18:33 AnnB need to consider a much broader audience than just hip geeks # 18:33 tantek AnnB - right, because we are disrupting the inbox model because it is broken, even if understood # 18:34 AnnB while I appreciate your goals of improved processes .. I am not convinced the inbox model is broken # 18:34 tantek we have no desire to reinvent RFC822 with W3C specs titled "social" something instead of "mail" something # 18:34 tantek AnnB - I think when you end up using/deploying this stuff on your own site, you find that the "inbox" model is broken. # 18:35 tantek Obviously internally at big enterprises, they have no problems with the "inbox" model. # 18:36 AnnB I agree there are other models; I do not agree there is no need for inboxes # 18:36 AnnB <now getting lunch> # 18:36 aaronpk would like to point out he also works at a relatively large enterprise company # 18:40 tantek cynical observation, enterprises like inboxes because they like the sender-power-bias of the CEO being able to forcibly deliver something to all employees' inboxes, as opposed to the indieweb receiver-power-bias of only optionally retrieving something that they've been notified about. # 18:41 aaronpk we've been trying to move more of our communication to github, where it's more about tagging people on threads that are relevant to them rather than sending anything to their inbox # 18:44 tantek aaronpk, right, "tagging people on threads" = mentions, rather than sending anything to inboxes. # 18:46 AnnB good joke about box lunch! # 18:46 AnnB I understand the cynicism .. but don't think it's that # 18:46 AnnB and I am NO apologist for CEOs # 18:47 tantek AnnB, the CEO characterization is merely the tip of the hiearchical culture trap that enterprises reinforce. # 18:47 AnnB I do not find that mentions / tagging works for many # 18:47 tantek AnnB - only because it's new and in development as a culture # 18:47 AnnB regardless, there is a value to the inbox model, for many purposes ... IMO # 18:48 AnnB as there is value to tagging / mentions # 18:48 AnnB I do not think one negates the other # 18:48 tantek AnnB - I disagree - the inbox model merely is a reinforcement of undesirable power imbalances # 18:48 AnnB yeah, well ... that would be your opinion .. IYO (?) # 18:49 tantek no - it is demonstrated by the above examples - not just an "opinion" # 18:49 tantek that was just a summary statement for presented examples # 18:49 tantek whereas "is value … for many purposes" without providing specifics, is an opinion # 18:49 AnnB it's very hard to discuss things with you # 18:50 tantek AnnB - I'm rejecting your characterization of "opinion" by presentation of concrete examples # 18:50 tantek you don't like that rejection, hence you consider the discussion hard # 18:50 tantek however, that doesn't invalidate the rejection # 18:50 AnnB and I'm giving feedback on that mode of discussion .. which you reject # 18:50 AnnB <now goes to stir her beans> # 18:51 tantek AnnB, how do you prefer to discuss and evaluate the difference between statements being opinion vs. based in examples, vs. based in evidence vs. based in facts? jasnell joined the channel
# 18:52 tantek because you obviously implicitly value those differences, since your statement "that would be your opinion" seems to read to me an attempt to undermine or diminish my statement # 19:05 AnnB not trying to undermine nor diminish your statement(s), tantek, ... which actually I value quite a lot # 19:05 AnnB but I do think they are your opinions, just as mine are mine ... # 19:06 AnnB and that it's possible for many possibilities to exist, rather than only 1 truth # 19:08 KevinMarks my discussion of twitters problem with abuse is that turned @ mentions into an inbox # 19:08 tantek AnnB - and that's where I disagree, given the spectrum provided above, they are not just my "opinions" # 19:08 tantek AnnB - we use examples, and evidence to narrow down the many possibilities, sometimes down to one possibility # 19:09 tantek KevinMarks: great example. the "inbox" metaphor that Twitter implemented in their UI was directly harmful to underrepresented and at-risk populations # 19:10 tantek AnnB - real world example with citation = not just anyone's "opinion" # 19:10 AnnB OK, leaving aside my usage of the word / concept "opinion" .. it feels to me that you accept YOUR truth, and no others # 19:11 AnnB or maybe only those of others in your same mode # 19:11 tantek AnnB - no I tend to look at the position that has the most supporting examples / evidence, which can change with new data. That's scientific method 101 # 19:11 tantek if you don't like a position, providing counter-examples, counter-evidence, or an alternative position with *more* evidence # 19:11 tantek asserting an opinion in contrast to positions with evidence is not very helpful # 19:12 KevinMarks iOS's red numbers on apps is another antipattern - it makes every app an inbox # 19:13 AnnB feeling adequately shut down .. going off to do other work ... # 19:13 aaronpk want to use my home screen as a reference? there are little red numbers on almost every app because i've completely given up on clearing them out # 19:15 tantek AnnB, assuming you read logs, the point and intent is to question, challenge, and debunk (or "shutdown" as you say) *statements*, not people. # 19:15 tantek aaronpk - you can turn them off in Preferences > Notifications > disable Badges on all those apps # 19:20 Loqi @t :: #OCD focus tip via @helloerica: iOS home > Settings > Notifications > click each app, turn off Sounds+Badges. (ttk.me/t4D44) cwebber2 joined the channel
# 19:21 aaronpk heh i haven't really looked at the full list of apps on my phone in a while...i can probably delete a bunch of these LCyrin joined the channel
# 19:26 KevinMarks re the 'how did activity streams end up with these distinctions' thing form earlier # 19:27 KevinMarks it was modelling the 'news feed' idea - which is in effect a log of state changes # 19:27 KevinMarks with the assumption that filtered subsets of these would be useful # 19:32 tantek it was never actually a log of state changes - so that was where a logical deduction error occured # 19:33 tantek nevermind the assumption without use-case and prototype (selfdogfood) jasnell, jasnell_, jasnell__, bblfish and almereyda joined the channel
# 22:39 aaronpk tantek: thanks for the recommendation on disabling all the badge icons :) my phone is much cleaner looking now # 22:40 aaronpk the only one i can't disable is the Settings app, but that realy just means i should install this iOS update # 22:41 aaronpk it's going to take a few days to readjust to the lack of badges, my phone sreen looks out of balance now since i've been weirdly mentally compensating for the badge icons before # 22:42 aaronpk i left badges enabled for Messages, since those are high priority since they are private and direct communications jasnell, KevinMarks and bblfish joined the channel
AnnB BTW, "friend" seems a bit, um, friendly when considering these technologies in a business context
KevinMarks my discussion of twitters problem with abuse is that turned @ mentions into an inbox
tantek see also: http://powazek.com/posts/3368 "The Argument Machine"