jasnell, jasnell_, bblfish, the_frey, jaywink, the_frey_ and elf-pavlik joined the channel
#melvsteris this correct: in indieweb your outbox is your homepage?
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#ben_thatmustbemeagain, no such thing. in order to send a message there need only be a post somewhere. does not need to be in a feed
#ben_thatmustbemei think all these questions actually bring to point the fact that inbox and outbox are technical details and should not be mentioned at all in user stories
#ShaneHudsonThanks tantek :) I've finally got a nice work/life balance sorted out and graduating on Monday so things are starting to be quite managable again finally haha
#wilkieArnaud: Last week we decided to publish the specification as a regular working draft. it would be good to know where we are. it would be nice to know when the draft WD will happen?
#wilkiejasnell: I presented documents to harry last week and haven't heard back
#wilkiejasnell: sandro I copied you on note and got a failure to deliver. I'll attempt to resend. if harry can't do it, maybe we can work on it
#wilkieArnaud: can we get set up to do publication with a new tool
#wilkiejasnell: I've not had the opportunity. maybe this week
#wilkieArnaud: this would solve this problem. once we have the tool, it will just be a click of a button and the editor will have the control/credentials. worth the investment.
#wilkieArnaud: we'll have to wait for harry to come back
#wilkieArnaud: otherwise, last week, we finished the call discussing a set of issues on github and everyone was meant to come prepared to discuss them.
#wilkieArnaud: I would like us to proceed with this. on github and not on the WG tracker. jasnell: you have the lead on how to discuss this. there's no set order.
#wilkiejasnell: we'll start with 134. "require specific vocab" because of the way json-ld works if things aren't in the context they get silently dropped
#wilkiejasnell: to avoid this, the as context document uses the @vocab to declare the default vocbularity to be "_:"
#wilkiejasnell: doing this any types undeclared are preserved but their meaning is document specific. if two documents have a 'foo' and they are not defined, they both have distinct 'foo' types that aren't comparable.
#wilkiejasnell: so: do we want a common prefix for unknown things? the benefits would be it would give more assumed interoperability for documents with undeclared extensions. however, could lead to a false sense that two similarly named extensions are the same.
#sandroq+ to say we should not have a default @vocab; accidental term collision is bad; bnodes are bad.
#Zakimsees elf-pavlik, sandro on the speaker queue
#tantekdefinitely has difficulty both wrapping my head around this issue, mechanism, and relevance. will keep listening.
#wilkieelf-pavlik: I wanted to clarify that my issue does not propose a common prefix. if somebody uses properties outside of the context that person would have to define their namespace.
#wilkiesandro: common namespace can still conflict. blank nodes aren't a great idea either because they have some issues and strange behavior with RDF systems.
#wilkiesandro: I think silently ignoring them is a nice clear behavior. and people can understand "oh yeah, I'm not supposed to do that. they need to map to a url"
#wilkieArnaud: I see elf-pavlik say that things shouldn't be mapped to a common namespace. I believe your proposal suggests people must define a namespace, but what if they don't? we still need to handle cases where people don't do it.
#wilkiejasnell: the use of blank nodes here (the point that people ignore them is totally valid) just ensure that undeclared pieces make it through the json-ld expansion and letting the application decide what to do with these nodes later.
#wilkiejasnell: if people do RDF processing then yes, some strange behaviors surface
#wilkiejasnell: at least in json-ld expansion it does let the application decide what to do next.
#wilkiejasnell: I do believe that it should suggest that these might be ignored, but we should allow applications to do this if they want to do so
#tantekis really lost on what is the real-world use-case (URL?) that is driving this issue.
#wilkieelf-pavlik: in the case of blank nodes, I think people understand that blank nodes from two documents are not comparable, but how will people understand that two documents have the same extension property with json-ld?
#sandro+1 elf-pavlik how do people NOT using json-ld work with extensions?
#wilkiejasnell: you really need to declare a json-ld context. if multiple implementations are using the same term without declaring it, the spec already says they will have interop issues.
#tanteksandro - well, in microformats2 we use CSS style -vendor- prefixes for extending h-* object names, as well as p-* property names.
#elf-pavlikin plain JSON we also don't have # fragment URI support ...
#tantekwonders if he should go pop an URN of popcorn.
#wilkiesandro: jasnell, you seem to have a use-case for this? in some cases they do want to look at this stuff and know what to do, and in that case we are telling them to use blank nodes, maybe? I don't understand the use-case.
#tantekapplauds wilkie for minuting this challenging discussion.
#wilkiejasnell: it comes down to allowing applications to do what they want to do but providing the guidance. if an application is closed-network then they can do whatever. if they care, the spec provides the guidance to do it well. it's about being prescriptive about what SHOULD be done, not normative about what must be done.
#wilkiesandro: why tell them about blank nodes, then?
#wilkieelf-pavlik: from my perspective, if you want interoperability, people have to expand these terms.
#sandro+1 elf-pavlik if you want interoperability + extenisibility, you have to use full URIs
#wilkiejasnell: I don't think we need to keep hammering on. I don't think we need changes to the spec, but rather the json-ld context. whether we keep vocab to the blank node or we remove that specific item. the difference is when somebody uses json-ld expansion on a document with an undeclared term without the default vocab, those undeclared terms are dropped and the application WILL NOT SEE THEM. the application
#wilkie will see the blank nodes but does not (can not?) define meaning.
#ArnaudPROPOSED: Keep the spec as is: namespaces SHOULD be declared, unknown terms are ignored but passed onto the application as blank nodes
#tantekis going to put bnodes / blanknodes in the same category of httprange14 - unless you've got a pragmatic use-case that's driving the discussion, it's a waste of time to discuss it.
#wilkieArnaud: let's see if we can close on this. I'll try to summarize.
#wilkieArnaud: I'll wait for elf-pavlik's vote. ok.
#wilkiejasnell: I'll say to elf-pavlik, one of the things we can do is strengthen the language in the spec about why it is important these extensions are declared in the context.
#wilkiejasnell: if people are not doing json-ld processing, it is worth noting it will not help them in any case.
#sandro+1 jasnell strengthen language in the spec about why you should give URLs to extension terms!
#wilkiejasnell: this is about looking at common services and creating examples (fictional, as they don't already use Activity Streams) for how to accomplish their use cases with activity streams
#wilkiejasnell: the proposal would be to add these to the specification in some way
#tantekfrankly, I think all examples should have to be this pragmatic
#wilkieeprodrom: would it be useful to use example.org etc for these instead of specific services and anonymizing the services such as "uploading a photo" etc
#tantekand if any existing examples don't make sense in this kind of context (or in the context of existing approved user stories), then we should drop those examples
#sandro+1 eprodrom use .example not facebook.com, etc
#wilkiejasnell: that seems reasonable. it is just a matter of who will do it. pull requests are welcome.
#wilkietantek: ben_thatmustbeme has been doing a lot of work on improving examples in the spec. maybe file this as a separate issue for the spec and cc ben_thatmustbeme. I'm not volunteering him, but just saying you might find a volunteer here.
#tantekbetter to put requirements on consuming code than publishers
#wilkiejasnell: even though it has a type json-ld uses its own type "application/ld+json" and this issue suggests we add a requirement for servers to provide this type in addition to 'application/activity+json'
#wilkiejasnell: if we see the json-ld type we can't make the same assumptions about what we will see
#tantekpropose rejecting this issue as being bad for publishers, and bad for interop
#wilkiejasnell: therefore it is an important distinction
#wilkiejasnell: the question is here: for the api, do we want to require (aka MUST) supporting the json-ld type
#wilkietantek: I think that the issue is frankly ill-conceived and doesn't understand supporting interoperability
#wilkietantek: two types when you are publishing something makes it worse for consuming applications that have to suddenly support both and mitigating any issues in differences
#wilkietantek: making publishers work where consumers could do that work is bad design
#wilkietantek: the bottleneck is publishers and helping them get their data quality right
#rhiarodisconnected because chrome likes to reload tabs when not in focus, and now webex robot lady is intterrupting herself to thank me for using webex over and over
#rhiaroI sent several messages to different email addresses and twitter for the guy about opens ocial posts, no reply. Spoke to harry a couple of weeks ago, he sort of handwaved about it a bit, wasn't sure who else we could contact
#wilkieArnaud: if there is any action you are assigned to where you have an issue that blocks you, this is the time to speak up and we can try to solve it
#elf-pavliktantek, each action has "Associated with" and a product e.g. AS2
#wilkiejasnell: 52 can likely close, but we don't have harry here
#eprodromI mean, isn't there a good reason that we make those updates?
#elf-pavliki see updates great but 'new message on Social WG mailing list' notification for each tiny edit feels bit much at leas for may way of reading mailing lists
#eprodromI'm going to keep making issues and updates until that happens
#elf-pavlikeprodrom, sure! thanks for all your edits BTW :)
#aaronpkmaybe this is a great way to encourage people to use other channels for communication other than the mailing list :)
#aaronpkalso it's not that hard to just delete those emails elf-pavlik :P
#elf-pavlikaaronpk, i agree not a big deat to delete them, i just find it discuraging me to check that inbox as soon as i see new message in it and have some time for it
#melvstersurely you should return the correct mime type?
#melvsterjasnell: unsure I will (be able to) reuse this work without a standard mime type ... is there any possible to have a version of AS with the json ld mime? if so, how?
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