#social 2015-07-08

2015-07-08 UTC
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melvster " I'd -1 the whole user story with the explanation, can postpone from v1, open to reconsideration for a v2 API."
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melvster can someone explain the difference between v1 api and v2 api ... in terms of when they are scheduled?
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melvster elf-pavlik: re http://w3c-social.github.io/social-arch/ identity is not a part of security, it's the other way round
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elf-pavlik !tell tantek could you please explain somewhere what do you mean by api v1 v2 ... ? melvster just asked about it and i also wanted to clarify i already some months ago, thx!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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melvster elf-pavlik: i joined the IG
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elf-pavlik melvster++
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Loqi melvster has 16 karma
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elf-pavlik i'll try to join today's call
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melvster elf-pavlik: what's the overlap in use cases of the IG and the WG? i was trying to find more information and participants but i couldnt seem to find the links
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elf-pavlik i don't know if i can explain it
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elf-pavlik WG sarted working on User Sories to focus API work around them
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elf-pavlik IG should deliver more general use cases and requirements
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elf-pavlik but it all seems very much like almost same work
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melvster elf-pavlik: ok thanks, confusing
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elf-pavlik melvster, bblfish: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/180
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melvster elf-pavlik: did you need something?
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elf-pavlik i noticed you talking a lot about friending, also not sure if you follow all new issues in AS2 repo
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elf-pavlik also relevant regarding need of both, qualified and direct relations https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/135
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elf-pavlik i just thought about using ACL on qualified relation to have similar feature as public/private visibility of membership in github organizations
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elf-pavlik this one may also come relevant "How to handle relationships between agents?" https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-docs/issues/12
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elf-pavlik qualified relations also look helpful for agent - object relationships e.g person - event , person - project etc.
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elf-pavlik ATM i don't find http://blog.schema.org/2014/06/introducing-role.html very convincing ...
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elf-pavlik and one can also create direct relationship out of qualified one...
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melvster elf-pavlik: im interested in social, im very surprised that friending is not considered 'core', imho outside of this group it would be, im interested in the concept of friending in the context of linked data, but now i am unsure if AS2 is even going to be JSON LD or not
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melvster id like to know how to do friend requests
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melvster IMHO following should be a consequence of friending, not the other way round
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melvster id be interested to see friending implementations
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melvster do any exist?
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster: how do you know as2 is event going to be json-ld.... you don't
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melvster why is it in REC track then?
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ben_thatmustbeme it might change
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ben_thatmustbeme its only a WD
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ben_thatmustbeme so anything might change
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melvster how many W3C JSON serializations are their going to be then?
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melvster current libraries that follow standards will only work with JSON LD
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melvster so it's going to be a big problem if something else is created
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melvster for interoperablity at least
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melvster W3C is going to need a very good reason to endorse yet another JOSN serialization as a REC ... as a Note it makes more sense tho
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melvster s/JOSN/JSON
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melvster it already released one in the last year
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: its just hard to plan implementations without knowing these things will be stable
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm just not going to bother repeating the same conversation with you over and over... read the last conversation we had
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ben_thatmustbeme and yes, if json-ld things change, json-ld libs break. but libs that don't use json-ld break if you do use json-ld. i don't care about current libs
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ben_thatmustbeme i care about best spec going forward
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: OK I understand, just let us know when you decide and it's stable
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melvster just be aware that if you introduce breaking changes, you're going to lose some implementations
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melvster elf-pavlik: any idea on friend requests?
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ben_thatmustbeme hello AnnB
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AnnB hey there ben
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melvster hi AnnB: I applied to join the IG
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melvster thanks for sending out the mail
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AnnB melvster, just dial in!
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melvster dont have a mic right now, but I'll follow on IRC ...
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AnnB oh dang
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ben_thatmustbeme AnnB is singing your praises melvster :P
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ben_thatmustbeme s/P/)/
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melvster :)
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AnnB trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-social-irc
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 08 July 2015
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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AnnB I'll sing your praises too, Ben
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AnnB except your screen name is too long for me to type
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AnnB present: Larry Hawes, Ben Roberts, Ann Bassetti
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AnnB discussing objections to user story 2.1 Profile Management
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AnnB Ben trying to explain his understanding of Tantek's objection
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AnnB (we need Tantek)
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AnnB and ... Ben, Kevin, Tantek (?) opinion that the profile management should not be for v1 of API ... but yes, maybe for v2
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ben_thatmustbeme I don't remember the exact conversation tantek mentions via github, but i would interpret it as something that should be internal to the implementation or extension
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ben_thatmustbeme the set of values that would need to be created for this to be implemented would be quite large
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AnnB lehawes: wonders if these are actually 'objections' or if they are "back-burnered"?
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AnnB .... maybe we start a new status of "put off until v2"
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ben_thatmustbeme thus i can see his argument that profile management should be something handled later
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AnnB AnnB: in enterprise we really need to manage profiles
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ben_thatmustbeme keeps muting to prevent tons of coughing on the call
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AnnB Ben: this story seems to be less about managing one's profile, or federating, and more about the user being able to update their profile from any app
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AnnB AnnB: I like Ben's rewrite of the story .. to get away from the English nits of which exact fields one would add
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AnnB lehawes: what I think I'm hearing is that the actual vocabulary used, which fields, is important for the Profile Federation story, not the "plain" create and update one's profile story
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AnnB ... is the agreement between terms needed for profile terms work that the vocabulary task force would do?
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ben_thatmustbeme http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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AnnB Ben: h-card doesn't specify how the content is formatted
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melvster I just want to note, we implemented this with SoLiD and demoed it at the F2F. We were told implementations make a difference.
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AnnB Ann: knows almost nothing about vocabularies ... asks, is there a mapping between microformat terms and other vocabs for names / addresses / etc?
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AnnB yes, melvster .. I think there is focus on having implementations
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AnnB lehawes and I are just trying to understand the basics of how this works
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AnnB wish to heck you had a mic!
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster: implementations definitely make a difference, but remember, implementations don't decide user stories. implementations are great informatoin on what works and what doesn't
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ben_thatmustbeme s/:/,
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AnnB lehawes: I'd like to see vocabulary task force to make some mappings between the likely vocabs, choose one ..
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AnnB AnnB: but .. if we choose ONE .. aren't we limiting ourselves?
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AnnB lehawes: actually, no mappings yet
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AnnB AnnB: I don't get the part about "choose one"
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AnnB lehawes: choose one as foundation
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AnnB .... think of profile as database with a variety of fields .. name / address / etc
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AnnB ... all profiles have those fields
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AnnB ... we need to choose the basic initial set
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melvster I just looked at the last SoLiD app I wrote. It uses 15 vocabularies. Starting with one might be nice, but it doesnt scale to anything more than very simple user stories. TimBL pointed this out in 2010 in the XG
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AnnB ... for what one needs for basic profile
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AnnB lehawes: good point, melvster
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melvster searches for the quote
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AnnB AnnB: and that echoes my concern as well
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster++
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Loqi melvster has 17 karma
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AnnB ... no worries.. TimBL is all about extensibility
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lehawes melvster: Good point and well-taken. I'm assuming that there must be one vocal that has more/better elements than others. Not perfect, but serviceable as a starting point.
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AnnB ... back this user story .. is this more we need to do to resolve objections on it?
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AnnB ... more to do, or put off until v2?
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AnnB lehawes: yes, put off to v2, but vocab TF should work on, so we're ready to go
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AnnB Ben: yes, this will be important
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melvster what is "v2"
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melvster no one seems to know
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster, the plan is to get an initial version of the API out and working before including additional functionality at a later date (b2)
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ben_thatmustbeme /b2/v2/
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lehawes melvster: we're talking about V2 of the Social API.
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AnnB AnnB: proposal: put off user story Profile Management until API v2, but IG Vocabulary Task Force will work on proposing a basic set of profile attributes vocabulary
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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melvster -1
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lehawes +1
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AnnB why not, melvster?
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melvster it's already implemented, I think it's the only implemented user story
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ben_thatmustbeme no it isn't
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AnnB hmm .. maybe we need to discuss this further when you can actually talk
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ben_thatmustbeme several user stories are implemented in various systems, and were demod a F2F2
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melvster if not the only, one of the very few
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AnnB right
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melvster they were not actually implemented many were just proposed
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melvster this is live and workign
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melvster but that aside
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ben_thatmustbeme also, implementation of a user story does not mean it needs to be done in the API
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AnnB let's not go off on how many implementations we have ..
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melvster the support was very strong, the argument of 'twitter and instagram doesnt do X' I dont think is compelling
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AnnB for right now, I'm going to leave that proposal out there, and we will re-visit it when more people can be on the call
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AnnB OK?
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melvster sure!
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster, do you have a phone? you can have webex call you
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AnnB IOW, a land line or a cell?
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melvster oh cool
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melvster i dont have webex set up tho
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melvster i guess you can strike my -1 as im not on the call ...
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aaronpk here's the way I see it. I likely will never want to use an app to update my profile on my website, I'll just use whatever tools my website provides (for me that happens to be editing html, for others that might be using wordpress admin interface). the point of the social API is to create an ecosystem around social data
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melvster i added it to the issue
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ben_thatmustbeme annB 'ACTION: <name> to <do something> - [due <when>]'
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aaronpk sorry, tuning in late to the conversation via IRC only, can't join the call today
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ben_thatmustbeme http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html
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AnnB melvster .. look at agenda .. scroll down to the webex info .. click the link .. it'll set up .. doesn't take too long
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lehawes Thanks aaronpk; glad you're jumping in and welcome
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AnnB click "Join the meeting" and you'll be presented with audio options
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AnnB hi Aaron!
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lehawes aaronpk: so do you think that a standardized profile vocabulary SHOULD be included in V1 of the Social API?
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aaronpk nope, because I will likely never want to use the API to update my profile
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AnnB hmm, aaronpk ... you've added a new twist
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aaronpk heh
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AnnB Ben: this is essentially what I thought Tantek's objection was
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lehawes OK, so this is really an issue for the Federation API, as I originally suspected.
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AnnB you think the story is around HOW you update your profile, rather than what's in the profile?
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aaronpk this is analogous to the OAuth 2 WG's decision to leave application registration out of the core spec
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AnnB ... which is entirely unrelated to the actual terms used
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AnnB Ben: user story should be about how you get that data ...
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AnnB ... how you fetch the profile
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AnnB lehawes: whole different user story
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melvster looking at webex
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melvster ' Java is not working.'
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AnnB ... maybe we need to break this into several user stories
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AnnB oh nooo, melvster
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aaronpk in OAuth 2, you need to register an application to get a client_id and client_secret. they ended up leaving that out of the core spec saying implementation of client registration is up to the service to decide how to do it.
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AnnB lehawes: not break it, ... rather, add another
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ben_thatmustbeme user story for v1 of federation API needed (fetching a profile across federated sites)
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AnnB melvster, I'll be happy to try and get you going w webex some other time
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AnnB crucial you figure that out
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lehawes We should leave existing Profile user story as is and table it for V2 of the Social API.
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melvster ty (failed in firefox and chrome) will follow on irc for today
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AnnB dang!
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AnnB let me know sometime when you have a mic, and I'll call you
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melvster will do!
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lehawes Vocabulary TF should propose a standardized base profile vocabulary and we should write an additional user story that addresses federation of profile information from one or more systems to another. This would be in support of Federation API v1.
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AnnB Ben: many of these user stories overlap between "social" and "federation"
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aaronpk did anybody mention that there are already standardized base vocabularies?
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AnnB ... hard to break them up
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AnnB yes, aaronpk
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melvster we use FOAF / SIOC
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: many standards, thats the problem
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lehawes Yes, aaronpk. Which one did you have in mind ((if any)?
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AnnB and my question -- because I'm essentially ignorant on this -- is what are we supposed to do?
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melvster vocab != standard
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ben_thatmustbeme https://xkcd.com/927/
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aaronpk vcard
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AnnB we cannot expect the world to use just one
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melvster we use vcard too actually
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lehawes We made an initial list of these potential vocabularies and presented it before the AC a couple of years ago (in Italy?)
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lehawes The list is still accessible on the wiki somewhere.
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lehawes aaronpk: today we have talked about both vcard and chard.
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melvster facebook have a vocab (ogp) as does google (schema.org)
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lehawes hcard
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melvster the idea is to reuse the terms you want and mash them up
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melvster you cant choose a base vocab because if there were 10 stakeholders more than 5 would disagree
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AnnB SUMMARY:
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AnnB .. we propose...
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AnnB ... for Profile Management user story .. https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues/1
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lehawes Hey tantek! Were your ears burning? ;>)
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AnnB ... we suggest leaving the API work until v2
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melvster when is v2?
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AnnB ... and the Vocab Task Force start now to work on a base set of terms for profile
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lehawes AnnB: The profile base vocabulary will also be critical to V1 of the Federation API
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AnnB (dunno melvster)
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster, in the fullness of time
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AnnB ... and / or v1 of 'federated profile'
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melvster ok, could be never then
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AnnB haha, ben
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster, it would be at some point after v1 is done
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AnnB we can discuss more, this is just what the 3 of us have come up with
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ben_thatmustbeme s/done/working
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tantek hey lehawes - not quite - on for the #css wg telcon - and dealing with a dying laptop (drive) :(
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AnnB ... now maybe we'll get some action ... as others get their dander up
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Loqi tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 6 hours, 55 minutes ago: could you please explain somewhere what do you mean by api v1 v2 ... ? melvster just asked about it and i also wanted to clarify i already some months ago, thx! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-07-08/line/1436346256154
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lehawes tantek: Yuk! Good luck with that HD.
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AnnB trackbot, make minutes
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trackbot Sorry, AnnB, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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AnnB trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent I see no action items
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AnnB I really appreciate Larry and Ben dialing in, and Melvin trying to do ... this was a great discussion
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AnnB seems to me the only way we'll actually resolve the objections is to discuss them
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AnnB in this case -- which seemed very simple to me on the surface -- there were all kinds of important subtleties
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: there's a difference between implemented and proposed implementation https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr
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melvster of the 10 that were written up, my impression was that most if not all were not actually live and working, in a complete sense -- the SoLiD implementation of profiles was live and working
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melvster my understanding is that 0/4 of the activity pump have been implemented yet
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melvster and that swat0 wasnt fully implemented by aaronpk (although a heroic effort)
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk and I, between us (as no one person can implement SWAT0, it requires multiple sites to federate), have i think done it
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ben_thatmustbeme or at least are pretty close
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: yes ultimate kudos for that, but Im just saying that that actual running code is relatively limited, SoLiD at least has running code for 2/10 of the stories on that page
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: of those 4 ticks how many are actually live and working with indie web?
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melvster post a note / post a file / responses
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster: want to pass me a link so i have links in front of me
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melvster https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme certainly post a new, the inbox and following a person user story are not seen as part of indieweb yet, there have been several systems to implement them. (readers that work to aggregate posts by those users you input, but there is no standard for following)
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ben_thatmustbeme posting a "file" in the sense of images, videos, etc, but not of generic doc files as no one has really needed it.
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ben_thatmustbeme responses and i believe aaronpk got private sharing working as well
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ben_thatmustbeme its difficult to say "implemented in indieweb" as someone may have done it themselves, but there are tons of softwares that don't do it
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ben_thatmustbeme all this is beside the point
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ben_thatmustbeme yes its good to note what has been done
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: that makes sense, but for someone relatively new coming to that list, it's hard to know what is actually implemented, and what is a proposal, at this point
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tantek melvster - re: "actual running code" re: user stories - go read minutes from the Social Web WG f2f 2015 March in Cambridge - tons of live indieweb demos with live permalinks (still accessible) that demonstrated numerous user stories.
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ben_thatmustbeme but this isn't a competition to say "XYZ is able to implement every user story". So what? A person could implement every one of these in a silo pretty quickly, the point is to get some sense of what has been implemented, and what is needed. and from there build specs (which may be none of them) that will work for the future
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melvster tantek: why not link them to the github page then?
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ben_thatmustbeme as evan has said, we are not trying to create some mess that is bunch of interop between all the current softwares
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tantek melvster they're linked from the wiki which is the primary source of information, you can start there and follow your nose
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: im not saying it's a competition, but if it's the case that only 3 of the user stories can show evidence of implementation, and that implementations count, then striking one of those 3 at this point, should have some extra weight
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: perhaps for "implement … user story" we should require 2+ implementations doing the interoperating, that is, we need a different term for individual implementations of *parts* of user stories
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aaronpk +1 fo 2+ implementations
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tantek melvster - it's a hybrid approach. the user stories were proposed openly by anyone, then voted on (political, not technical) to narrow down the set to what the group apparently wants to focus on
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ben_thatmustbeme all three could implement a user story and, if its a bad user story, i'd still be in favor of dropping it
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aaronpk one implementation is nice, but doesn't demonstrate any sort of interop
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tantek and now we're looking at implementations and interop
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tantek of that smaller subset
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tantek aaronpk - agreed
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aaronpk and of course 2+ implementations means one has to come first, so definitely having one implementation is notable
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ben_thatmustbeme if multiple implementations (though not necessarily interoperable) work in similar ways, thats where i think the really valuable information is
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aaronpk another benefit of requiring 2+ implementations is it means you have to convince at least one other person the thing you're implementing is a good idea
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tantek and the *way* you're implementing it
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tantek in terms of interop touch points
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aaronpk good point
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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tantek perhaps at the next f2f we should have demos *only* of 2+ implementations doing a user story
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melvster I think the page at https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr should really make clear which are implemented and running code, and which are proposed
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tantek that is, no one gets to demo their own solution by themselves
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aaronpk ooh i like that
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tantek we already did that
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tantek which forces people to actually be *social* and pair/triple up to organize doing the demo, across their own different sites with different implementations
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tantek and if you can't manage that amount of being social, perhaps work on that first before claiming to work on the "social" web?
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melvster yeah well kind of hard when there's only one VGA adaptor
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melvster not that all laptops (including mine) had VGA
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tantek melvster - is that an obstacle for you? then perhaps watch how others do it
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melvster tantek: i think it would be an obstacle for anyone, can you explain why you think two implementations are better than one?
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melvster for a demonstration
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melvster if one demonstrates the user story correctly
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tantek melvster: we already did solo demos as proof of concept. time to raise the bar and focus group time on those that are actually achieving some degree of federation.
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tantek melvster: solo demos of user stories are no longer interesting, as they're no better than silo demos
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melvster tantek: but why does alice need TWO profile managers?
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melvster if one works perfectly well
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aaronpk that was kind of my point earlier... why does alice need profile management in the API at all if she has her own way of updating her profile
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tantek melvster - sure, some user stories might not have the possibility of federation, e.g. if there is only a single "Actor"
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tantek good point aaronpk
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tantek perhaps all user stories that lack a federation component should be dropped
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tantek after all, there's nothing "social" about just using a program by yourself
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aaronpk if it can be demonstrated that there is a need to have multiple implementations update alice's profile, then maybe it's a good user story. if not, probably not a good user story.
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melvster isnt there 2 apis, one social, one for federation?
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melvster as it happens we did actually demo 2 profile editors
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melvster but one is a cleaner UI so we use that
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tantek no melvster, federation is a protocol in the charter: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#deliverables
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tantek however, given that LDP was originally supposed to be an input to Federation, and instead is now (via SoLiD) being used as input for Social API, the two (social & federation) are clearly overlapping
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tantek it's something some LDP advocates have been claiming for a while, that social & federation can be solved by the same API/protocol
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melvster tantek: so can you give me a number, from https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr can you tell me how many of the user stories are actually implemented, live and running -- as opposed to proposed -- 1 2 or 3?
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tantek melvster - go back and read the minutes I referenced
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tantek you can derive that information yourself
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melvster or 0
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melvster ok so 1
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melvster if post a note isnt done
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tantek no many more were demonstrated
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tantek I'm just saying you can do that work of totalling, and it will help you understand the state of the art better if you read the list of all the demos yourself
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melvster from what ive gathered, responses is done, live and working
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melvster post a file is a maybe
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KevinMarks that reminds me - we shoudl avoid changing all exampels int he spec to use example.com or .example as then it looks like they are all on the example silo
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KevinMarks this was one of my issues with the notifications spec
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tantek melvster: probably more productive for you to focus on implementing the approved user stories that scratch the most personal itches for you
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tantek and then ask for folks to interop with
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melvster tantek: we've done 2 already, working on #3
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tantek KevinMarks: this is why I use kevin.example.com :)
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melvster we meaning SoLiD
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melvster seems that's the most so far
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KevinMarks reading scrollbakc - annb: h-card is based on vcard, and has well defined ways to map back and forth
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melvster KevinMarks: I find it really sad that links in specs dont really demonstrate examples
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tantek melvster - then we should be able to see demos of that across multiple sites & implementations at the next f2f - work it out how to do so.
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KevinMarks right, but kevin.example.com is a silo subdomain. I use eg known.kevinmarks.com
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tantek KevinMarks: it's the best we can do with use of example.com, certainly better than URN nonsense or paths
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aaronpk is there another reserved domain?
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aaronpk example.org?
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melvster tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 211 karma
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melvster or acct:
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KevinMarks mind you, when I used kevinmarks.com in the Google Social Graph API docs, I got lots of spurious inbound rel="me" links
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aaronpk alice.example.com bob.example.org
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tantek aaronpk: yes, that too
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tantek aaronpk, yes! in fact example.net and example.edu too :)
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tantek aaronpk - that's a great proposal - perhaps file it as a GH issue on AS2? that examples should use different TLDs for each "actor" in an example?
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aaronpk will do
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tantek since we can use .com .org .net .edu
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melvster kevinmarks: i dont see why dummy examples cant be set up for people to see actually what to expect, and how to code stuff
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KevinMarks the microformats tradition is to link to "examples in the wild"
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melvster tantek: actually inboxes are a pre requisite of responses
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KevinMarks melvster: I think you're confusing the map with the territory again
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melvster KevinMarks: probably :)
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melvster im terrible with directions
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aaronpk hm .edu is not in this list http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2606#section-3
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melvster there's a bit difference between *user story is proposed* , *user story is almost working* and *user story is implemented*
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melvster s/bit/big
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melvster in the first category there's 10 on that page, but in the last category there is at most 5, and could be as few as 2
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85000&oldid=84925
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tantek melvster LOL re: inboxes are a pre requisite of responses - unless by inbox you mean "something that can receive an HTTP request, e.g. webmention", then no, as disproven by all indieweb implementations of all kinds of responses (replies, likes, resposts, RSVPs) etc.
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melvster tantek: 'First public working draft: Aug 2015 (unlikely)' -- can you tell us any more?
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tantek melvster: when no one is working on something, it's unlikely that a FPWD will appear a month later.
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AnnB thanks, kevinmarks, for explanation
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tantek but since the date is in the future, I held off on changing it to ???
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tantek we should just drop the dates table from the Charter - which references the wiki for the latest info anyway
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AnnB my question is what the normal way of handling the relationship between various vocabs ... I presume microformats, FOAF, SIOC, and many others overlap
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AnnB (on these types of profile terms)
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AnnB tantek, I understand you saying we should go off and make our own tally of what's been implemented
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tantek AnnB - no, for melvster in particular, since he didn't attend the f2f, he should read the minutes from it
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AnnB BUT .. so far I can't find the link to where the implementations were documented
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AnnB I see that
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tantek AnnB - you saw them, as demos, and they were minuted
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AnnB I guess I, too, can go to those minutes
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tantek each demo was listed, and which user stories it demonstrated (at least part of)
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AnnB of course I saw them .. I was trying to find the links
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AnnB right
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#Social_Web_WG_Face_to_Face_Meeting_at_MIT_.28F2F2.29
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AnnB I was thinking of the demos in Paris
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tantek AnnB - I too need to often reference past minutes/logs to recall more thorough / precise aspects of what happend
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AnnB Day 1: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04-minutes
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AnnB Day 2: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-05-minutes
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AnnB but you're right .. I guess the demos actually started at the MIT meeting
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tantek AnnB - not being at the Paris f2f, I can't claim that any demos happened, nor if they did if they got minuted
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KevinMarks the best way to map is to do a detailed vocabulary comparison
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KevinMarks activity streams aspired to this http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/page/24632647/Mappings but never filled int he details
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tantek perhaps that failure to fill in details is a criticism of the methodology of "do a detailed vocabulary comparison" ?
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AnnB that was our conclusion from our discussion this morning .. that the vocab task force should start now, trying to map the basic set
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melvster AnnB: schema.org uses the "sameAs" property to indicates it's the same as a term in another vocab, but in generally most terms dont overlap
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AnnB so there'd be a foundation when people are ready to work on profile in the theoretical v2 API
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AnnB thanks melvster, although I'm fascinated in a general sense by language and vocabs ... I am truly ignorant on the geek details
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KevinMarks http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Document_Current_Behavior is a good idea
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melvster AnnB: A lot of the vocabulary on schema.org was inspired by earlier work like Microformats, FOAF, OpenCyc, etc. Many terms in schema.org came through collaborations, and we acknowledge these on the schema.org site rather than by making our markup more complex
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AnnB I'll leave it to those who know more
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melvster that's from the website ^^
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melvster schema.org in a way was inspired by microformats
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AnnB and, I gather there is a lot of controversy and emotion around schema.org
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KevinMarks (that process page is trying to explain how to approach this work sysetematically and reproducibly
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AnnB thanks KevinMarks
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tantek AnnB - as there is from any effort effectively controlled by one company (person?) in practice, with claims of being a set of companies, and further open-washing using a w3c mailing list
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KevinMarks schema.org was not so much inspired by microformats as defined i opposition to it - they wanted a fiat process rather than a reproducible one
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AnnB it's very interesting to try and distinguish between actual current behavior, versus what we think people do, or what they should do, or some such
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tantek AnnB now that I agree with
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tantek e.g. schema has craziness like /Volcano that has a faxNumber
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melvster btw google and schema.org have also adopted json ld (which many of us hope activity streams will be finalized on) https://developers.google.com/schemas/formats/json-ld?hl=cs
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tantek which is none of the above: "actual current behavior, versus what we think people do, or what they should do"
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tantek I guess that leaves "or some such"
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AnnB I'm not gonna go down the schema discussion path
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KevinMarks with OpenSocial Person, we gathered examples from many social websites, then came up wiht a merged vocabulary. The big problme was thatw e did this in private, not in public
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KevinMarks so there was no evidence documented of it
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tantek AnnB - you raised the vague point about controversy - I wanted to provide a concrete example
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AnnB yes, I know
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AnnB I was mostly trying to warn melvster he was stepping into deep mud
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melvster lol
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tantek melvster - indeed, Google's reinvention of Microsoft's XML Data Islands and JSONLD data islands is a hilarious repeat of history
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AnnB the actual behavior I need to do is get in my car and drive to my office
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AnnB <sigh>
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melvster i presume you mean hilarious in a good way :)
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AnnB too bad you guys aren't in Seattle .. fantastic day to jump off our houseboat into the lake!
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tantek hilarious in a "doomed to repeat" way
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AnnB we'd get these use case objections wrapped up quickly if we were sitting around in swim suits
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AnnB haha
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aaronpk has it been hot in seattle too? it's been like 95 in portland every day for the past 3 weeks. it's getting unbearable.
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tantek XML Data Islands died, despite Microsoft's big push for them. I see no reason for JSONLD data islands to fare any better.
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AnnB totally, aaronpk .. weirdest weather for us, eh?
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tantek despite Google's big push for them.
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AnnB def let me know if you come to Seattle
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melvster tantek: google use it in gmail
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AnnB hmm ... I didn't realize there is controversy around JSONLD
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AnnB sheeshe
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AnnB sheesh
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tantek melvster - and so did Microsoft with XML Data Islands, in numerous applications of theirs. didn't matter in the long run.
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aaronpk AnnB, will do! I seem to make it to seattle surprisingly little for how close it is
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AnnB ditto me, with Portland
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tantek AnnB - not controversy about JSONLD per se, more like many that just go "huh?" YAGNI.
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aaronpk oh wow https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms766512(v=vs.85).aspx
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aaronpk did not know about that
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tantek AnnB is it really controversy when you have one set of folks who are excited about something, and another set are meh?
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aaronpk followed by https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh801224(v=vs.85).aspx
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tantek aaronpk - yup
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AnnB I guess it depends how animated the folks going "meh" are
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aaronpk "Support for XML data islands has been removed in Internet Explorer 10 standards and quirks modes for improved interoperability and compliance with HTML5."
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tantek Google just copying Microsoft, 15 years later ;)
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aaronpk hehe I like the idea of a vehement "meh"
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tantek though Google does seem to drop failed things sooner, so they're likely to drop JSONLD in more like say 5 years, faster than the 15 years it took for Microsoft to drop XML Data Islands
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AnnB this is also where typed words lose context .. I was interpreting much more "animus" in tantek's words above .. and he says it's just a "meh"
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aaronpk !meme meh [http://meme.loqi.me/img/sparta.jpg]
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4c4_c84A.jpg
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aaronpk or better...
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aaronpk !meme JSON-LD | meh [http://meme.loqi.me/img/sparta.jpg]
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/4c4Z29D4.jpg
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tantek AnnB, meh is the response to something when people are able to be productive by ignoring that something
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tantek which is why there isn't much (any that I know of?) objection to *optional* use of JSONLD, but why there is strong objection to any *required* use/knowledge of JSONLD
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tantek it's like, hey, if that extra stuff does something for you, great, go have fun with it.
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KevinMarks JSON-LD bears as much relation to actual usage on the web as lojban does to English
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tantek KevinMarks: does Google Translate support lojban?
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KevinMarks no, but it does support latin
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melvster tantek: would you be willing to clarify who is strongly objecting to JSON LD?
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melvster (being required)
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tantek melvster: everyone who doesn't need it
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tantek which would be all indieweb implementers, and pump implementers etc.
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tantek because why would you want something required that you've proven is unnecessary?
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melvster i was wondering
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tantek JSONLD advocacy borders on religious zealotry
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tantek so it's more productive to just ship stuff that doesn't need it
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tantek than to engage in theoretical arguments about it
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melvster tantek: i dont believe your comments are accurate
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tantek belief doesn't matter when you've got shipping implementations
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melvster tantek: i dont think you speak for all indieweb implementors
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tantek I speak from the evidence of productivity without JSONLD, and that people prefer to stay productive rather than even think about useless things
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KevinMarks of course he doesn't, that's the point of indieweb
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tantek that's sufficient to declare it meh and move on
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KevinMarks empirically, who has implemented json-ld in indieweb?
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melvster tantek: nor do i see evidence that indieweb has actually implemented *any* of the approved use cases ... ive raised an issue asking to add links to the wiki page, imho indieweb is *almost there* with many things like swat0, which is great, but has not proven it's able to interop with anything other than itself, making it imho yet another silo, all be it a distributed one, however I do see members of the indieweb community trying to break out of that silo
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melvster , and welcome that!
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tantek KevinMarks: the other thing is that it's a plumbing rathole
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tantek melvster - nah, your use of silo is incorrect per indiewebcamp.com/silo
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aaronpk melvster: you keep saying "indieweb" as if it is a single implementation. the whole point is that it's not
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tantek aaronpk - it's a common mistake
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tantek melvster - there's nothing to break out of - indieweb just uses … the web
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melvster well that's a fair point, different people will have different definitions of sllo, so we can agree to disagree
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tantek and if you want to talk non-web uses, then well, that sounds offtopic for Social Web WG
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tantek melvster you may be confusing silo with monoculture, which, as aaronpk pointed, is not indieweb either: indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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melvster but what would be great is evidence gathered in a single place of actual working implementations, rather than laving to pick thru minutes and in the end find somethign that was *almost working*
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tantek melvster yup - that evidence is all on indiewebcamp.com
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tantek pick a feature, check out the page for it, and "IndieWeb Examples" list sites, people, permalinks
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tantek melvster AFAIK no similar resource exists for any non-web approaches
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melvster tantek: well ill be the first to congratulate you when those links are transferred to the social web wg github area
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tantek melvster - nah, no need. they're already more open on indiewebcamp.com
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tantek which is a commons per indiewebcamp.com/commons, whereas github is a silo indiewebcamp.com/github
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tantek transferring to github would be a step backwards
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melvster tantek: ok :)
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tantek melvster, I think you are grossly underestimating how much farther advanced indieweb is compared to W3C efforts (including social web WG)
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melvster tantek: no, i dont think I am
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tantek (as demonstrated by how many citations I've trivially provide for you in my statements above, compared to nearly none from you)
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tantek melvster - that's ok, you're encouraged to keep making progress building stuff you want for your own site - as we'd say: indiewebcamp.com/principles
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melvster tantek: in the last week ive built a boilerplate app, a clipboard app, a video sharing app, a chess game, a linked data explorer -- all from scratch -- ive been trying to look at doing the third use case , but it's very hard to understand ... id be delighted to see evidence of work done, if it's really there perhaps someone from indieweb an help collate it with the other projects
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tantek melvster - have you documented all those on your own site?
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tantek with posts and citable permalinks that anyone can read?
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melvster tantek: yup it's all documented and linked from my home page
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tantek Not found: video, chess, explorer - nope, can't see it sorry
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tantek on your home page as you added to irc-people: http://melvincarvalho.com/
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tantek melvster: perhaps report back with permalink URLs when you have posts for each of those discussing them?
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melvster tantek: im afraid it's more a function of your searching ability
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tantek nah, if the labels you claim here in IRC aren't trivially text findable on your homepage, then that's your inconsistency
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aaronpk curl http://melvincarvalho.com | grep -i chess
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aaronpk (empty)
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melvster all my projects are open source under MIT license and easily findable from my homepage because i put my source code in github, like most web developers
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melvster aaronpk: "when all you have is a hammer"
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aaronpk oh, you meant linked from your github profile. now I see them
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melvster also for those that read email they are announced and published
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tantek melvster - is your use of "hammer" referring to your use of github?
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tantek aaronpk: I'm going back to: https://twitter.com/t/status/590273371180400640
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Loqi @t :: New rule: reject claims by "Linked Data" advocate(s) until they provide *links* (URLs) to actual *data*. #extwebsummit (ttk.me t4ak1)
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melvster slvrbckt: can vouch for the chess, we had quite a good game
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tantek melvster the only context I know of where a vouch is a link is indiewebcamp.com/vouch use of links
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melvster yeah another system *almost working*
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melvster im looking forward to all this work being completed and easily findable from a common area for the working group
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tantek nope, demonstrated at IWC Cambridge 2014
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tantek links to people/sites/implementations are on that page, as noted before, in the "IndieWeb Examples" section
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melvster ok, i stand corrected, thats great to hear
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melvster then hopefully you can take that success and apply it to the user stories
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melvster so that we can all easily compare each others solutions of running code
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tantek depends on how much the user stories intersect with the distributed set of personal itches everyone has for getting stuff working on their own site
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AnnB reading back, from approx 10:20 gets my hackles up ...
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AnnB just saying I think there could be less testosterone and more effort to understand others POVs
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AnnB what's obvious to one isn't to another
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AnnB BTW, one problem with using this channel for the IG meetings, is that the minutes are labelled as "Social Web WG"
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AnnB not sure how to correct that
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AnnB or if it matters ... might be important for the historical record
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melvster tantek: i dont think monoculture should be limited to software, it should include protocols too
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melvster annb: sorry for the slightly heated debate, just trying to establish what common work there has been completed in the wg, in a communal area
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melvster as related to the user stories and implementations -- it's a goal to learn from what others do, so pointers are helpful
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melvster maybe you have another term for the antipattern of creating a protocol that interoperates with itself but nothing else
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melvster indieweb itself is more than just a philosophy, it's a protocol too
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melvster the indieweb philosophy i think is something i am well behind
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melvster but i think the protocol is broken
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melvster broken in this case meaning it struggles to interoperate with anything other than itself
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster: i think brid.gy is a pretty good example of that not being true
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ben_thatmustbeme also twitter now including microformats in profiles
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ben_thatmustbeme any protocol will require support. its about getting that barrier as low as possible. Microformats are pretty easy to add
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: i dont think they're easy, i think it's personal preference ... all i am saying is that if there is evidence of interop then presenting that in a communal area will help everyone learn, if there's no links, it's hard to take someone's word for it, because so many solutions are *almost finished* but not quite complete
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ben_thatmustbeme indiewebcamp wiki has links to everything we do. what do you want an example of?
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ben_thatmustbeme brb
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: user stories ... this isnt an indieweb group, it's a social web group ... it's great you have links in your wiki, but we have 10 user stories that people have focussed on, activity pump has started 4, indieweb has started 4, SoLiD has started 2 BUT completed 2 ...
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melvster im just saying that if indieweb has completed this work, it should be clearer, and it should be open for examination too, because it's easy to say something is done, when it's only 80% there
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melvster raucao: https://sdelements.github.io/lets-chat/
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raucao melvster: great, we can add that to kosmos. also planning slack integration. we're done with the format and rs logging/storing btw. should show you that sooon
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raucao would be nice if more people would use that format for their logs
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raucao we'll use it for public logs so you can diff your own log against those and get logs from before you joined channels in kosmos
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raucao as well as your own of course
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melvster raucao: im doing a mini rewrite of webid.im ... you were soooooo right about polymer ... it's incredibly slow to do anything even vaguely complex ... but my new tests are using indexeddb caching and lightning fast ... just going to code the decentralized wallet first
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raucao :)
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melvster raucao: here's my list of FLOSS messengers : https://github.com/melvincarvalho/webid.im/wiki/FLOSS-Messengers
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melvster feel free to any any you've come accross
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raucao hmm, that's a mix of im and chat programs
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melvster yes, im focusing on IM
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raucao then remove the chat ones :)
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melvster but chat as a side effect
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raucao l
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melvster well my system does boht
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raucao uh, k
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melvster just doing a big performance upgrade to enable that
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raucao i mean chat as in public room vs im as in private groups
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melvster raucao: SoLiD doesnt care about private vs public any more than UNIX does, it's just a chmod or acl
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melvster so the same code runs both
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