#social 2015-07-28

2015-07-28 UTC
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Loqi Akuckart made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85243&oldid=85241
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Loqi Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85244&oldid=85243
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melvster great news ... an successful open source project (over 2 million users) is thinking about adopting SoLiD or some of sections or the SoLiD spec ...
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melvster still in early talks, but looks promising so far ...
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melvster also : FYI: https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues/39#issuecomment-125329055
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Loqi Mcarvalh made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Media type for AS2]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85245&oldid=85237
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ben_thatmustbeme which project is that?
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: not going to announce it till it's official, but it's not hard to guess ;) not many projects of that size that could use SoLiD
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: did you see there was an issue raised about the microformats example #1 on the AS2 spec?
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melvster "create"
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melvster IMHO we should try and put mf2 under the w3c namespace so there's a stable normative reference
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ben_thatmustbeme we have discussed this before, harry responded to your email
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: what's your opinion?
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melvster i mainly interested in what implementors think
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Loqi Mcarvalh made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85246&oldid=85244
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ben_thatmustbeme on the lack of any "create" syntax? we haven't needed it thus far. if you demonstrate a real need for it the best course of action is to a) start using it as an extension, and find out if its really needed, then if it is very useful and not just something that can be inferred from context, b) propose it as an addition to mf2
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ben_thatmustbeme the default generally is mf2 object is already created, so its a bit redundant for any purposes thus far
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: let's just use AS2 and move MF2 to a note
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ben_thatmustbeme no
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melvster let's vote
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ben_thatmustbeme thats the wrong tactic, the point of those examples is to see where differences lie
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ben_thatmustbeme having those examples in there is actually pretty important
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melvster it's not a tactic ... vocabs need a 1 to 1 semantic correspondence
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ben_thatmustbeme we did a few meetings back
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ben_thatmustbeme way too many objections
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ben_thatmustbeme actually we put them back in because of objections
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melvster if one cant model the other they should not be marked as the same
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melvster lets either choose MF2 or AS2
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melvster i actually dont mind which
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melvster but let's not say they are equivalent if they are ot
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melvster s/ot/not
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ben_thatmustbeme as2 isn't a finished spec yet. agreed, in the end, they should be able to do the same things
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ben_thatmustbeme right now its important for development of mf2 / trimming of as2
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melvster only thing is im unsure we have time
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ben_thatmustbeme instead of "cut out what doesn't fit" find why it doesn't fit, and see which side of the equation needs balancing
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melvster the deliverables are already 10 months late
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melvster let's just take whatever is in best shape and go with that for now ... then leave the door open for alignment
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ben_thatmustbeme if thats the argument just republish existing specs, they are already done
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melvster i can picture using AS2 right now
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melvster i can picture using MF2 with a bit of work
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melvster but we need a timeline on that work
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melvster it's getting close to the point when we will need to choose
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ben_thatmustbeme fact is mf2 is IN USE right now, as2 is not
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melvster tiny use
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ben_thatmustbeme don't care if you "can picture it"
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melvster how many profiles?
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ben_thatmustbeme not getting in to that argument again and your inflated numbers
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melvster ok, let's not go down that route then
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melvster but the point is being is use is just one factor
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melvster it's a plus of course
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melvster but lots of things are in use
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ben_thatmustbeme i may lose signal any time now btw, on the trian
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melvster does not mean they must be used
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melvster we need a standards quality vocab to work with
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melvster as2 is making a great claim
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ben_thatmustbeme no, but by cutting them out you lose real work experience of an entire community
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ben_thatmustbeme s/work/world/
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melvster if mf2 did the same thing, like microdata does, or rdfa, or turtle or json ld, that's fine ... but there are differences, and we need to resolve that relatively quickly
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melvster we have a simple decision
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ben_thatmustbeme exactly, but the same argument could then be made lets just make mf2 the standard and make json-ld a note. don't want that either.
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melvster use AS2 or use MF2 or use both
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ben_thatmustbeme never know
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melvster sure making AS2 a note is also possible
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe start a different spec for mf2 style streams then "its not the worst thing in the world having two specs"
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ben_thatmustbeme ~timbl
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melvster id personally just like to see 1) a stable reference 2) some kind of extensibility system (AS2 has both of those) (if MF2 can do that too I think we are OK)
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ben_thatmustbeme mf2 has extensability
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ben_thatmustbeme and is "stable" enough for w3c and timbl
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ben_thatmustbeme s/extensability/extensibility
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melvster ok well if the group happy with it, then why cant we put it somewhere stable like under the w3c namespace?
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melvster if that exists or will exist very soon, it's a great input ... but id like to see t
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ben_thatmustbeme did I lose you?
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melvster not sure, dont think so
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ben_thatmustbeme test
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melvster u r here
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: also does anyone in the indieweb have 1000s of followers? that is one of the requirements for the inbox user story ... is anyone in IW actually realistically looking at this?
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ben_thatmustbeme network popping in and out
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melvster kk gtg anywya
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ben_thatmustbeme no, i don't think anyone is looking for an actual case of thousands of followers
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ben_thatmustbeme remember user stories are only as guides to functionality
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melvster it's in the use case
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melvster partially completing is fine
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ben_thatmustbeme not that they actually have to be 1000s of followers
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melvster sure they do
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melvster lots of people do
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melvster this is the main thing im looking at
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ben_thatmustbeme i mean to show completion of that user story
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melvster why not?
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ben_thatmustbeme should be able to support it
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melvster im actually implementing it
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ben_thatmustbeme great.
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melvster scalability is really important for SoLiD
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ben_thatmustbeme implementing++
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Loqi implementing has 2 karma
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melvster we want to see we can handle that many users
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melvster we cant handle millions of followers
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melvster but a few 1000 is a reasonable challenge I Think
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melvster and i have profiles with over 1000 followers
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melvster this is really where we look to learn from activity pump
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melvster i think we should have a vote on : AS2 REC / Note / NA ... MF2 REC / Note / NA
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ben_thatmustbeme its going to have multiple objections on both sides
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ben_thatmustbeme will just be a waste of telcon time right now
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ben_thatmustbeme especially since we voted on that a few weeks back
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: but we've not discovered AS2 and MF2 are incompatible (as per the issue raised this week) ... I think that changes things. Right now what I can say I've observed is that AS2 is looking like a REC track deliverable. If MF2 can align it and convince the whole group it's done that, that'll be great. Im just not sure we're there yet.
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melvster s/not/now
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melvster mf2 needs a stable normative reference
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melvster look nature just published a list of vocabs it uses:
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melvster http://www.nature.com/ontologies/docs/namespaces/
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melvster 2.7 million articles and 1.2 million users
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ben_thatmustbeme any serialization could likely be coerced to align with any other. MF2 is in-use and doesn't just add things willy-nilly.
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ben_thatmustbeme nature.com != social
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ben_thatmustbeme get a list of vocabs that G+, Twitter, FB, etc use, now that would be very interesting to review
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melvster well i think we should have reused facebook's work but they are not a member of the WG :(
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melvster however i like AS2
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ben_thatmustbeme have you found a need for "create" that cannot be just assumed by context?
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ben_thatmustbeme and by "found a need" i mean hit an actual implementation limitation
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melvster that wasnt the point raised, the point raised is that the examples are claiming to be equivalent but they are not
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melvster anyway i got drawn into a long irc conversation i wasnt intending to (again!) ... im going to stick to the ML
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melvster let's work out which vocabs are inputs to the deliverables
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melvster while there is still time to deliver something
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melvster if even that's the case
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders why the rush
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ben_thatmustbeme yes we are behind but its not the end of the world
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster: thats exactly the point though, its a work in progress
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ben_thatmustbeme its not a spec yet
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melvster jasnell_: did you get a chance to look at : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Media_type_for_AS2
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Loqi Sandro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85248&oldid=85246
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ben_thatmustbeme sandro++
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Loqi sandro has 20 karma
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melvster ironically I proposed AS 1.0 having its own media type back in 2012
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melvster but the w3c didnt have any RECs in JSON at that time
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aaronpk melvster: URL?
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aaronpk to the discussion I mean
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cwebber2 hello
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aaronpk good morning
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melvster it's on the google group, issue was raised by sandeep
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cwebber2 hey, I can't be on the meeting for any more than 10 minutes today unfortunately :(
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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melvster https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/activity-streams
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cwebber2 which is enough to where I could explain the matrix thing
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cwebber2 but probably I should just put up regrets
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melvster ugh hash bangs
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melvster i feel like i just polluted the web ...
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aaronpk melvster: that's a link to the list... do you ahve a link to the message?
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ben_thatmustbeme https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/activity-streams/A9g1zBJBI1E
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like there
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't see you proposing it anywhere, sandeep and evan did
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ben_thatmustbeme but i'm just nit-picking
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Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85249&oldid=85248
akuckartz, tantek and ShaneHudson joined the channel
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ShaneHudson I'm in and out of client meetings all evening today but shall try to stay here for most of it
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tantek good morning #social
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tantek today's telcon agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-07-28
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sandro good afternoon @tantek
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tantek present+ tantek
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aaronpk where is zakim?
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aaronpk and rrsagent
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tantek looks like no Zakim in the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-irc
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sandro trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 28 July 2015
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tantek trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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KevinMarks https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-07-28 says no more Zakim
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trackbot RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot Date: 28 July 2015
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jasnell_ present+ jasnell
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aaronpk present+ aaronpk
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sandro We still have the zakimbot for queue management
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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KevinMarks present+ kevinmarks
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sandro fwiw
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Arnaud present+ Arnaud
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sandro present+ Sandro
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tantek present?
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rhiaro_ present+ rhiaro
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ShaneHudson present+ ShaneHudson
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sandro ummm
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aaronpk i thought present+ was just for the logs
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sandro zakim, who is here?
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Zakim sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
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Zakim On IRC I see RRSAgent, tilgovi, ShaneHudson, tantek, akuckartz, KevinMarks, jasnell, melvster, wilkie, shepazu, Arnaud, JakeHart, mattl, bret, tommorris_, dwhly, ElijahLynn,
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Zakim ... tessierashpool_, slvrbckt, bigbluehat, rhiaro_, raucao, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber2, tsyesika, Loqi, sandro, trackbot, aaronpk, oshepherd, wseltzer
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sandro nope.
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ben_thatmustbeme present+ ben_thatmustbeme
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sandro zakim, who is present?
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Zakim I don't understand your question, sandro.
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KevinMarks is muted on my end
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ShaneHudson Yeah I'm muted, can hear you fine
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rhiaro_ is muted, can hear
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aaronpk i can scribe
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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tantek scribe: aaronpk
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rhiaro dropped..
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk i can back you up if you need to talk
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aaronpk tantek: participation is limited to members, so please hang up if you are not a member
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aaronpk TOPIC: approval of minutes
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-07-14-minutes
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aaronpk thanks ben_thatmustbeme
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tsyesika present+ tsyesika
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aaronpk tantek: any objections to the minutes?
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wilkie present+ wilkie
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aaronpk ...or any +1s
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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ben_thatmustbeme sure
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aaronpk +1
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akuckartz +1
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ShaneHudson +1
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wseltzer present+ wseltzer
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wilkie +1
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tantek RESOLVED: 2015-07-14 minutes approved
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aaronpk tantek: i'm going to declare the minutes hve been approved
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-07-28#Activity_Streams_2
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aaronpk TOPIC: Activitystreams 2
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aaronpk tantek: first item is a pull request
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tantek https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/191
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aaronpk ... most likely added by james
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aaronpk jasnell: yeah it was added by me. it's a follow-on to the previous conversation
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aaronpk ... about the purpose of a colection
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aaronpk ... the previous converstaion, rather than adding a type identifier or purpose identifier, the preferred approach would be using a propertly, link-rel aproach
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aaronpk ..that's what this does, to idenity 4 common types of colections
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aaronpk ... inbox, outbox, relationships
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aaronpk ... and store, which is a link to the collection that has all your stuff like albums or posts
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aaronpk ... this is pretty stragithforward, adds 4 properties
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aaronpk ... deprecates replies in favor of inbox
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aaronpk ... rather than having a replies collection you have an inbox
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KevinMarks -1 on inbox over replies
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aaronpk ... i saw some discussion on IRC about this before
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jasnell the WD were published last week btw
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aaronpk tantek: yeah the IRC logs should be recorded, let's assume the IRC logs are there unless someone finds a probelm
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aaronpk tantek: okay i see one -1 from kevinmarks
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aaronpk KevinMarks: my concern here is we came up wth reply in the first place based on existing naming practices across social networks
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aaronpk ..there's a distinction between reply and inbox more than just the name
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aaronpk ... an inbox is directed at an individual, a reply is directed at a post
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aaronpk .. conflating the concepts is confusing implementation detail with a meaningful distinction
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aaronpk tantek: do you have ea counter proposal to james' changes?
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i'm not sure why he's deleting replies as well as adding inbox
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aaronpk ... i don't think you can subsume replies with inbox without losing that distinction
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aaronpk ... i woudl say keep replies as well
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aaronpk jasnell: we have the existing in reply to property
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aaronpk ... if something is posted to the inbox with the in-reply0to property you can infer it's a reply
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wilkie I think the idea is to do filtering of inbox items into whatever you want?
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aaronpk .. so we have the ability to maintain the distinction without having a separate collection
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aaronpk ... inbox becomes more generalized
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aaronpk KevinMarks: so yhow would you express a collection of in-reply-tos
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aaronpk jasnell: you could do it as an extension, or find a way in the api to dfilter by that
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aaronpk sorry for all the typos lol
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i'm not finding that convincing
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aaronpk ... when you build something very large like twitter, you end up constructing an inbox/outbox model which is howyou do caching
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aaronpk .. but that is not structural
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aaronpk tantek: james what was the motivation for this change?
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aaronpk jasnell: it's going through and pointing to the different collection types for discoverabiilty
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aaronpk ... the api is working with different collection types
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KevinMarks http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/replies/1.0/
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aaronpk ... the pumpio API is an example, they have differnet ideas of your inbox and outbox
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aaronpk tantek: so this is an attempt to normalize AS2 with pump?
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aaronpk jasnell: yeah
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KevinMarks "replies Used to provide information about the thread of discussion associated with a given object. Typically, the objects contained will have an implied inReplyTo property value equal to the object containing the replies property."
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aaronpk ... normalize how we discover these separate types of collections
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aaronpk tantek: we don't have formal API requirements yet, we just have approved user stories
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aaronpk ... although someone could take the approved user storeis and write up API requirements
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melvster SoLiD developers are also discovering that we need inbox ...
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aaronpk ... and for each requirement, cite the user story that provides that requirement
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aaronpk ... but i haven't heard anyone step up to do this
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ben_thatmustbeme I see it as moving to a more generalized "inbox", something like "webmention endpoint" in the indieweb side of things
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aaronpk ..bbut if that did exist, you could cite it as an api requirement
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aaronpk jasnell: if we need to hold off and wait til the api matures more that's fine
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aaronpk tantek: we also have another agenda item to rename the inbox user story
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aaronpk .. maybe that will help inform this
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aaronpk .. so unless we can come to a quick resolution i don't think we can come to consensus on this call
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KevinMarks I'm looking for definition of inbox that is as clear as the 1.0 one for replies
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aaronpk jasnell: the PR describes where i'm at
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i' see that we have existing AS 1.0 replies thing which is very detailed, i don't see an equivalent in defining inbox in that way
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aaronpk jasnell: inbox is intentionally defined as a generalized loosely defined concept
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aaronpk .. that can contain replies as well as other things
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aaronpk KevinMarks: it sounds less loose to me
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aaronpk ...part of this is inbox implies a receiving end. a reply can happen anywhere, but an inbox is a queue of things that have come from outside thaty ou have to dela with
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ben_thatmustbeme naming issues with "inbox"
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aaronpk ... in distributed stuff, replies can exist anywhere on the web, but inbox is a queue of things locally
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aaronpk jasnell: i don't see those as being different things
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aaronpk ... a reply you're going to receive, so they're conceputlaly identical
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aaronpk tantek: let me see if i can find a way to move forward
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aaronpk ... kevin can you come up with a counter proposal or a proposal in addition to james' changes ijn the next 2 weeks/
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i'll have to read it in more detail
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aaronpk .. i appreciate it sounds like i'm arguing about the names of things, but i am arguing they are structurally different
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rhiaro Can you have a Replies collection for a particular post, but not an Inbox collection for a post, Inbox just for a person?
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aaronpk tantek: the burden is now on you to come up with a propsoal for how the spec should change to indicate they are different concepts
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aaronpk ... and we can look at that as agroup
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro, thats a good point
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i'll look at the change in more detail
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aaronpk ACTION: KevinMarks to provide counter proposal or proposal in addition to James' PR https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/191
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 1
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trackbot Error finding 'KevinMarks'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
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tantek item: AS2: Status of publication of editor's draft?
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aaronpk TOPIC: status of publication of editor's draft
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jasnell they were published last week
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aaronpk jasnell: i would like to start a regular candence of once a month publishing a new draft
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jasnell http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core
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jasnell http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary
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aaronpk tantek: congrats for another working draft, appreciate your work on that
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jasnell http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-core-20150722/
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Arnaud it's in the agenda: Published: http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-core-20150722/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-vocabulary-20150722/
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akuckartz jasnell++
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Loqi jasnell has 28 karma
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jasnell http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-vocabulary-20150722/
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aaronpk tantek: okay good, i agree once a month is a good thing
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tantek item: AS2: Proposal to replace media type "application/activity+json" by "application/ld+json" plus profile
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aaronpk TOPIC: re-open proposal to replace media type "application/activity+json" by "application/ld+json" plus profile
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aaronpk tantek: raised by andreas
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melvster https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Media_type_for_AS2
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KevinMarks is not sure how to edit that nicknames page to add myseld
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aaronpk ..i pointed out we don't have any new information, but then andreas documented the new information
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aaronpk ... i'll let andreas present this
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aaronpk akuckartz: i'll try to keep this short
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aaronpk ... this one issue was created a while ago
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akuckartz https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/52
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aaronpk ... which was closed because there was no further discussion or actions
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aaronpk ... not based on the content of the discussion
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aaronpk ... i raised this issue of the media type in the SoLiD community and there were several people who agreed it would be better for the linked data community to have the jsonld media type
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aaronpk ... what i'm interested in is it would be good to have more arguments in favor of having the special AS media type
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aaronpk ... the main issue that was put forwrad in this issue was the problem of two information models
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jasnell I'm -1 on removing application/activity+json, but +0 on adding the application/json+ld+profile.
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aaronpk ... but we alreadya have multiple communities with information models and jsonld is the way to combine the communities
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aaronpk ... my proposal is to reopen the discusison and collect more information
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jasnell the impact is specifically on the API
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jasnell essentially, it would mean allowing the API to accept: application/json+api;profile=<http://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams> as an alternative to application/activity+json
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aaronpk tantek: okay, sanyone have anything else to add?
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aaronpk ... if not, we can leave the wiki page open to continue to collect the different options
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melvster just the wiki page I posted earlier: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Media_type_for_AS2
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aaronpk ... and advantages and disadvantagses of each
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aaronpk ... doesn't sound like we have a consensus yet
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aaronpk jasnell: i'm definitely -1 on removing activity+json media type, but allowing json+ld+profile we can do that also if that makes it easier for the json ld folks
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aaronpk ... all it takes is adding a section to the spec about the profile parameter and what it means
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aaronpk tantek: you're requeting we ge tsome additional spec test provided as part of a proposal?
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aaronpk jasnell: yes
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tantek s/spec test/spec text
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aaronpk tantek: does that sound reasonable?
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aaronpk akuckartz: sure
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KevinMarks I thought the point of using a specific type was that implied a profile, without having to include it?
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aaronpk tantek: why don't we leave the wiki page open for contributions for two weeks and re-evalutate it then
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KevinMarks may be remembering wrong
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aaronpk ... is that a reasonable step forward?
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aaronpk akuckartz: perfect for me
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aaronpk jasnell: yes and i'll re-open the issue on github
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aaronpk tantek: thank you both
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aaronpk TOPIC: Social API
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-07-28#Social_API
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aaronpk tantek: any update on the brainstorming document?
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rhiaro q+
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Zakim sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... i thought i saw all 3 ofyou on the call
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees rhiaro on the speaker queue
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tantek ack rhiaro
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk rhiaro: there's nothing in particular to update, there's been some requests to add solid stuff into the api outline document
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Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85250&oldid=85249
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aaronpk ... but nobody has offered to do that
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ben_thatmustbeme prepped to take over if needed
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aaronpk doesn't have anything else to add either
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tsyesika nor do i
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aaronpk tantek: thanks, any questions about the brainstorming docs or specific requests?
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KevinMarks reads it
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aaronpk ... okay next item
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melvster FYI: apache who were doing some work on the SoLiD documentation in the API have left the WG
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aaronpk TOPIC: Rename inbox user story
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aaronpk tantek: i added this agenda item
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aaronpk ... to Rename Inbox user story to what it actually is: "Read Social Streams" (or "Social Streams Reader")
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aaronpk ..b based on some of the comments from the original voting
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aaronpk ... it seems like the term inbox is causing misunderstanding about what this user story is about
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tantek item: Social API: Rename Inbox user story to what it actually is: "Read Social Streams" (or "Social Streams Reader")
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aaronpk ... and assumptions beyond what is in the user story
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aaronpk ... let's open up the floor for discussion
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aaronpk ... go ahead and q+ to provide feedback in any way
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme q+
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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melvster multi tasking ... but left some comments on the agenda ... ie already implementing inbox and have used the term inbox
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: i had brought this up wa while ago. if it's just the name of the user story and doesn't affect teh functionality, i don' tsee any problem
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ShaneHudson +1 to changing just the name
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aaronpk tantek: i think in general, because the contents and steps were voted on and approved, it's out of scope to alter that
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aaronpk .. if there's an alternative user story there's the other page for that
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akuckartz has not yet formed a real opinion
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tantek q?
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Zakim sees ben_thatmustbeme on the speaker queue
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aaronpk .. this proposal is just about changing the name, keeping the steps as writtne
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tantek ack ben_thatmustbeme
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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rhiaro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick:ben_thatmustbeme
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tantek ack aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i just wanted to add my +1 to this, because the framing of "inbox" comes with this baggaghe of email-like which is not in the intent of the story
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KevinMarks Q+
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Zakim sees KevinMarks on the speaker queue
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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tantek ack KevinMarks
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk KevinMarks: folowing what i was talking abotu earlier, the nuance is the sense of direction
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aaronpk ... sergey desribed twitter as email wihtout a "to" address
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aaronpk ... but there is a mechanism to read it
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aaronpk ... even tho it's not directed to you
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aaronpk ... the power of this model is that they don't behave in the way of having an "unread" count
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aaronpk ... you could do that, but it's underminig the more subtle distinction which is that we hve a web of things people say
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aaronpk ... and some of them are in response to each other,
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aaronpk ...but taht shouldn't create a burden on the person to respond to it
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aaronpk ... calling it inbox brings back that email-centric framing that the web and social web transcends
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ShaneHudson Agreed about the email mindset being awful
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akuckartz melvster stated that discussion was initiated on the mailing list.
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aaronpk tantek: given the input so far let's put this to a straw poll
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melvster -1 already implementing using the term 'inbox', I did not expect user stories to change at this point, any change would be more work, is the current naming a show stopper for any other implementers?
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aaronpk PROPSED: rename Inbox story to "Read Social Streams"
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ShaneHudson +1
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KevinMarks +1
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melvster https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Media_type_for_AS2
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aaronpk PROPOSED: rename Inbox story to "Read Social Streams"
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melvster oops
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aaronpk +1
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ben_thatmustbeme +1
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rhiaro +1
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melvster -1 already implementing using the term 'inbox', I did not expect user stories to change at this point, any change would be more work, is the current naming a show stopper for any other implementers?
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tantek +1
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rhiaro melvster: the story isn't changing... the contents of the story are the same
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ben_thatmustbeme JUST THE NAME
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aaronpk tantek: i want to clarify, the user story itsefl is not changing
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wilkie +1
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tsyesika 0
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aaronpk ...so anyone implementing the steps in the user stlory will not need to change their work
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aaronpk ... but this is about the WG as a whol ebeing better about communicating what we're working on
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akuckartz -0.5 lets see what happens in the the mailing list discussion
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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KevinMarks can you link to maling list discussion akuckartz ?
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ben_thatmustbeme scribenick:ben_thatmustbeme
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melvster would love to see the terms fully defined in consensus with activity pump
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i just want to point out that the mailing list dicussion that is being brought up on irc is not really a discussion, it is a single email by melvster
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aaronpk scribenick: aaronpk
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aaronpk tantek: melvster are you on the phone?
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melvster multi tasking sorry ... following on irc ...
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aaronpk ... anyone else understand melvin's objection?
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aaronpk ... the user stories aren't actually changing
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aaronpk ... wanted to see if there was any other aspect to his objection that we're not taking care of
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aaronpk ... andreas you wanted to see what happens in the amiling list discussion
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aaronpk ... aaron pointed out that the discussion has occured on IRC and this phone call
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aaronpk ... do you have a specific objection to make that we should record?
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rhiaro ^ and the wiki
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aaronpk akuckartz: there isn't that much discussion on the amiling list as a whole as far as i see it
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aaronpk ... my point is we should perhaps not decide on what to do today but keep it open for two weeks and then decide
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aaronpk tantek: if we had new information i would tend to agree
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tsyesika well people can -1 when approving the minutes for next meeting?
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KevinMarks the email says inbox is poorly defined https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Jul/0034.html
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aaronpk ... but i feel like we have enough consensus to declare today
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tsyesika if they've missed this because of holiday
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aaronpk ... absense of discussion is not usually a readson to hold things up
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aaronpk ... is that reasonable?
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KevinMarks whereas the social stream story is clear
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aaronpk akuckartz: that's okay for me
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aaronpk tantek: alright let's go ahead and declare that reslved then
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aaronpk ... if someone does come up with new information deserving to reopen it, we can do that
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aaronpk RESOLVED: rename Inbox user story to "Read Social Streams"
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aaronpk tantek: we can implement that witha change ont he wiki
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melvster wait; which of the two suggestions are we renaming it to?
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aaronpk ... let's keep the fragment IDs so existing links don't break
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aaronpk ... i can take care of that
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aaronpk .. we just took the first suggestion
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aaronpk ... and gives a "nod" to the history of RSS, the coincidence of acronyms
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aaronpk ... any volunteers to edit the wiki accordingly?
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melvster well my -1 stands ... no one answered if anyone is implementing this user story
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ben_thatmustbeme I'll take care of it
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aaronpk ... thanks ben
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aaronpk ... just for the minutes, melvin is stil indicating he has a -1 and the reason I chose to override that as chair is my understanding of what he wrote in IRC is his understanding is the user story is changing and that is not true, it's just the name
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aaronpk ... melvin perhaps you can join the next call if you have new information t o add so we can reconsider that
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster: how could what is basically a rename of a URL possibly EVER effect your implementation / code ?
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melvster how could it not?
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tantek item: Social API: Complete: moved approved user stories to the "approved" section on the wiki
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aaronpk TOPIC: Complete: moved approved user stories to the "approved" section on the wiki
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melvster naming is a large part of what standards is about
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aaronpk q+
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Zakim sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Approved_user_stories
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: its just what it sounds like. I didn't see anyone had done it yet even though approved, so i just went ahead and corrected the wiki with the 8 approved stories
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ben_thatmustbeme forgot to scribenick for that
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aaronpk tantek: great okay
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aaronpk TOPIC: Charter license update
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tantek https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-07-28#Charter_License_Update
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aaronpk sandro: i've done my part, it's in the hands of w3c management
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aaronpk ... i expect it will go to the AC later this week
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aaronpk tantek: great
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aaronpk .. do you know how long we might expect that to take for the AC to look at and approve/reject?
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KevinMarks I think reader.kylewm.com counts as an implementation of Reading Social Streams
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aaronpk sandro: i believe it's 4 weeks
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aaronpk tantek: whatever we can do to minimze the time, if there's something we can request..
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aaronpk sandro: feel free to talk to the AB to say we don't need an AC review
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aaronpk tantek: this is a good test case to suggest process improvements
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aaronpk .. let's see how this goes and document it and se how we can make it go more smoothly in the future
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aaronpk .. we expect it to go to the AC this week, they'll have 4 weeks to look at it and vote on it, and at the end of that, it will take nother couple weeks to turn the crank and update the charter
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Arnaud +q
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Zakim sees aaronpk, Arnaud on the speaker queue
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aaronpk ... if there are any objections before hand we can relate that to the WG
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tantek ack aaronpk
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Zakim sees Arnaud on the speaker queue
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aaronpk that was from before
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tantek ack Arnaud
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Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk Arnaud: i was wondering, i didn't see the final decision on what we put before the AC
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aaronpk ... is it just the license?
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aaronpk tantek: jsut the license
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KevinMarks woodwind implements all of that, though 5 would only be security by obscurity for now
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aaronpk sandro: did you revise the wiki page with the schedule?
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aaronpk tantek: if there's an action for me let's record that
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sandro action: tantek to update http://www.w3.org/Social/WG/Overview.html#sched
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trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
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RRSAgent records action 2
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trackbot Created ACTION-72 - Update http://www.w3.org/social/wg/overview.html#sched [on Tantek Çelik - due 2015-08-04].
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tantek http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised
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aaronpk TOPIC: tracking actions / issues
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tantek http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/pendingreview
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aaronpk tantek: no pending
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aaronpk ... no actions pending review
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85252&oldid=85220
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tantek http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview
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aaronpk .. anyone want to declare victory on open actions / issues?
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aaronpk ... alrigh we've got 9 minutes left
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aaronpk ... i'll confirm the next telcon is August 11, and Arnaud wil be chairing
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aaronpk ... so no telconference next week
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aaronpk ... any other business to bring up? or we can close the call and end early
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ShaneHudson I have to leave now anyway. Thank you tantek
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aaronpk tantek: okay not hearing anything, so i'd like to thank everyone who joined the tel conference
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aaronpk .. there's only so much discussion we can do on email and irc, so your participation on the conference helps us make progress
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aaronpk .. i appreciate you taking time out of your day to join the call
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akuckartz bye!
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aaronpk ..have a producte two weeks and we'll talk to you on august 11th!
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tsyesika bye :)
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wilkie thanks :) bye
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wilkie aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 912 karma
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tantek aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 913 karma
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 106 karma
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tsyesika aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 914 karma
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aaronpk trackbot: end meeting
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
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tantek trackbot, end meeting
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
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RRSAgent I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-actions.rdf :
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RRSAgent ACTION: KevinMarks to provide counter proposal or proposal in addition to James' PR https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/191 [1]
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RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-irc#T17-19-57
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RRSAgent ACTION: tantek to update http://www.w3.org/Social/WG/Overview.html#sched [2]
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trackbot RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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trackbot RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-irc#T17-49-13
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RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-minutes.html trackbot
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RRSAgent I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-actions.rdf :
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RRSAgent ACTION: KevinMarks to provide counter proposal or proposal in addition to James' PR https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/191 [1]
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RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-irc#T17-19-57
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aaronpk trackbot, make minutes public
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trackbot Sorry, aaronpk, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes public'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
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RRSAgent ACTION: tantek to update http://www.w3.org/Social/WG/Overview.html#sched [2]
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RRSAgent recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/28-social-irc#T17-49-13
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tantek did we record an official ACTION for ben_thatmustbeme to implement the RESOLVED for the inbox -> read social streams naming change?
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aaronpk it's already done!
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aaronpk will upload wiki minutes shortly
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tantek thanks aaronpk
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tantek and looks like the #Inbox links still work too - thank you
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Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/Sorting user stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85253&oldid=84326
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ben_thatmustbeme i updated the wiki while the call was still on
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85254&oldid=85250
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85255&oldid=0
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Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-07-28-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=85256&oldid=85255
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ben_thatmustbeme melvster (~
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ben_thatmustbeme woops
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Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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ben_thatmustbeme waves to Zakim
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