#social 2015-10-02
2015-10-02 UTC
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# 
elf-pavlik Q: do you think that in *minutes* of our teleconferences, for each line we log here, we have different *agent/actor* who *says* something and different *author* who writes it on IRC
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# elf-pavlik KevinMarks, re: "it limts you to only have one kind of thing on a page" page itself doesn't have type Person, one of the things which this page *describes* can have a type Person or Organization or Even etc.
# elf-pavlik one can use either # URIs with same main part as this page, or compleately different URI to identify those resources in unique way
# elf-pavlik eg. a followers-list page *describes* many things/entities each having it's own URL (h-card of person or organization)
# elf-pavlik in such cases IMO it comes very helpfule to set explicit subject of a statement http://microformats.org/wiki/triples
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# 
KevinMarks elf-pavlik: <meta property="og:type" content="profile" />is one kind of thing per page, as are all the og: meta's
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# KevinMarks in that it's like rel
# elf-pavlik true for this open graph case, but not for pages mared up with RDFa
# elf-pavlik s/pages/all pages/
# elf-pavlik i responded that different entities described on a single page can have different explicit types
# KevinMarks indeed - RDFa has similar characteristics to microformats in that respect
# elf-pavlik just as having a page with h-card and h-feed to my understanding very common in indieweb deployments
# elf-pavlik a page which *describes* a Person and a Feed
# KevinMarks schema now recommending JSONLD islands is a regression to a DRY model like RDFXML
# elf-pavlik if multiple people post to the same feed, it can also have an h-card for each h-entry, so a single page will describe a Person, a Feed with many Postings each having a Person
# KevinMarks indeed, or if an h-entry is written collaboratively it can have multiple p-author h-card
# elf-pavlik IMO it prevents people who work on page layout and styling to break structured data intended for machine consumption
# elf-pavlik KevinMarks, I wonder what do you think about distinction between agent/actor and author which I illustrated with example of minutes we take during telecons here: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/54#issuecomment-144998401
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# KevinMarks that can be a problem, agreed, but empirically having a separate copy in another format is highly likley to go wrong. see http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html#the%20JSON-LD%20is%20a%20separate
# elf-pavlik while agent/actor *says* something using voice, author *writes* it (most of the time summarized as (s)he understood it) to the chat
# elf-pavlik what if people generate HTML using templates like for example http://handlebarsjs.com/ ?
# KevinMarks then generating microformats or RDFa is a small template edit; generating jsonld is a separte process
# elf-pavlik aaronpk, what about JSON responses from web APIs ?
# KevinMarks well, they can be used by client-side tools like browser plugins, but they aren't really part of the web
# elf-pavlik my next deployment will redirect you to HTML page if you request text/html or return JSON(-LD) if you request application/json or application/json-ld
# elf-pavlik if one specifies microformats profile i will redirect to different page on micro. subdomain which will render this data using mf
# elf-pavlik sort of link shortener which pays attention to content type before redirecting
# KevinMarks a return to JAH? http://epeus.blogspot.com/2005/05/jah-ajax-without-xml.html
# elf-pavlik so short url goes into JSON-LD "@id" and page url goes into "url" property
# elf-pavlik if people request text/turtle i will respond with it as well - very easy to automate serializing to JSON-LD or Turtle
# elf-pavlik acutally I will still do HTTP 303 unless someone specifies with prefer in a header to not redirect
# elf-pavlik sandro ^
# elf-pavlik more than using url shortener ?
# elf-pavlik in next days i will deploy https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld and if I don't have template for something I will just use URI template to JSON-LD Playground which will redirect text/html requests to render them in http://json-ld.org/playground/
# elf-pavlik template - HTML template
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# elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#pci 4.3. Separation of Content, Presentation, and Interaction
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# elf-pavlik KevinMarks, aaronpk any thoughs on different agent/actor and author in case of minutes we take during teleconferences? https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/54#issuecomment-144998401
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# elf-pavlik eg. agent/actor - tantek & author - aaronpk http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-09-29/line/1443546534702
# elf-pavlik in above aaronpk makes post about tantek saying something - smilar to my example few comments earlier https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/54#issuecomment-91782628
# elf-pavlik so post author:aaronpk talks about an activity action:say with agent/actor: tantek :)
# elf-pavlik real world example right in logs of this channel: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-09-29/line/1443546534702
# elf-pavlik "Aaron posted that Tantek said ... "
# KevinMarks I mark those up as person tags http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-09-23.html
# KevinMarks though I should probably add a p-author h-card to show that it's me summarizing them
# elf-pavlik and publish a spec based on which people can interpret it in this way?
# elf-pavlik or use of microformats already makes it unambigious ?
# KevinMarks I'm using h-cite
# elf-pavlik oh, i see!
# elf-pavlik maybe also worth adding h-cite to mf of this channel logs when someone scribes and someone else speaks
# elf-pavlik i guess no one cares for distinction of we cite what someone else has written on the web (it may have url) or what someone else have said (harder to get url for it ;)
# KevinMarks isn't there a signal that you're about to start scribing? Or have we dropped that
# elf-pavlik we have clear scribe: start and end with "trackbot, end meeting"
# elf-pavlik "scribe: elf-pavlik" or "scribenick: elf-pavlik"
# elf-pavlik his way Loqi could also know who scribes and only add h-cite to lines authored by that person
# elf-pavlik one exception when i would scribe and start with my own nick elf-pavlik:
# KevinMarks another option might be to enable marking a block of posts as scribed afterwards?
# elf-pavlik afterwards-- ;)
# KevinMarks I do self-scribing in that example page I linked (it's hard)
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# elf-pavlik i want to publish read later, watch later, attend later lists any experience in talking about future activities in indie web community ?
# elf-pavlik also visit later for map of my future locations https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Buddyradar_Use_Case
# elf-pavlik sometimes I RSVP yes and than don't go to event, without distinciton of planned / done some RSVP that reach event start day would show as those i participated in unless i make sure to update to 'not going'
# elf-pavlik i would prefer to make sure that i check in which should make planned status change into done
# elf-pavlik this way i don't need to make sure i change RSVP if i missed an event
# elf-pavlik so far multiple types looks most promissing to me "@type": ["Activity", "Planned"] could change to "@type": ["Activity", "Done"]
# elf-pavlik rhiaro, ^ thinking again about you life kanban :)
# KevinMarks isn't that RSVP and checkin respectively?
# elf-pavlik KevinMarks, how do you query all events that someone RSVP yes *end* checked in ?
# elf-pavlik how does one gets list of all events which i actually attended ?
# KevinMarks both should send webmentions so that the event can collate them.
# elf-pavlik well, following nose needs to start from me not event, especially if we don't sign data we publish!
# KevinMarks you could repost an external event with h-event markup on your site, then rsvp and webmention to it
# elf-pavlik let's say we start from my homepage and if possible don't depend on webmentioning anything
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# elf-pavlik in my current approach i would follow property 'attendee' in reverse direction (or use ldp:DirectContainer) indirection https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L38
# KevinMarks foursquare generates an ical formatted calendar for me
# KevinMarks it is now so big google calendar refuses to display it
# elf-pavlik if i use additional type "Planned" & "Done" i can than get the collection of all events which i link myself to as attendee and just filter it
# elf-pavlik currently i use verbs and roles to 'follow my nose' to various collections of interest https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L8-L9
# elf-pavlik it works just as link relations just IMO with clearer semantics
# elf-pavlik i model those collections as explained here https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/wiki/Verbs---owl:Class-vs.-rdf:Property#collections
# elf-pavlik which allows me to reuse same property (~ link relation) no matter if i link to a single resource of collection of resources each with same relation to me
# elf-pavlik it also works with single property (~ link relation) used in both direction, to avoid need for defining inverse and always checking if someone didn't use the other direction)
# elf-pavlik s/the other direction/the other direction variant/
# elf-pavlik but i still need to distinguish past *Done* from the future *Planned*
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# elf-pavlik i'll try getting all posts from http://aaronparecki.com/metrics :)
# elf-pavlik so currently it works pretty much as 'rewind the tape' and than search for what you want?
# elf-pavlik no way to have more direct access to what i may care about?
# elf-pavlik ATM i start supporting 'follow you nose' via properties (eg. roles and verbs) which worsk like link relations https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L32-L54
# elf-pavlik this way one can go to very precise section of my dataset
# elf-pavlik rhiaro_, what do you think about 'following your nose' which i draft in https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L32-L54
# elf-pavlik same works for actions on certain resource with counters https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L365-L376
# elf-pavlik well you can discover all the collections from 'my homepage' as shown in the json-ld data i linked to
# elf-pavlik same with discovery of various relevant collections from 'event homepage' or 'book homepage' or 'movie homepage' etc.
# elf-pavlik basicly 'follow your nose' and pick edges you care about
# elf-pavlik also often we care about direct relation Person <-> Person not needing details in qualified version Person <- Posting/Activity -> Person
# elf-pavlik i use ~ rel=collection and reuse already existing and well defined ldp:membershipResource property in reverse direction https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L15
# elf-pavlik one can just add someone to list people one follows without posting about it...
# elf-pavlik doesn't always need to have qualified version (or n-ary version - activity) https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/wiki/Verbs---owl:Class-vs.-rdf:Property#proposed-alternative
# elf-pavlik yes but you can still do that without forcing everyone to announce in their 'main feed' that they followed someone
# elf-pavlik how to discover them?
# elf-pavlik if i have edge to people i follow, i can announce it but don't have to, and someone can find all the people i follow without scanning all the history of my activities
# elf-pavlik same for books i've read (want to read), events i attended (or plan to attend), places i visited (or plan to visit) etc
# elf-pavlik pattern i propose in that wiki page reuses same properties (~link relations) for following nose to collections, setting type of activity and providing way to make qualified relations (following reification pattern)
# elf-pavlik aaronpk, if someone wants to find list of books i've read or want to read it makes sense to me to follow 'verb:read' relation
# elf-pavlik what i talk about doesn't exclude what you talk about
# elf-pavlik i don't talke much about type here, i can read a book or email or spec
# elf-pavlik but i have *relation* with that entity based on me READING it
# elf-pavlik or me LIKING it
# elf-pavlik or me WATCHING it
# elf-pavlik etc.
# elf-pavlik or both if one wants to - they don't exclude each other
# elf-pavlik but to see how many unique places i visited i need to read all of them and deduplicate
# elf-pavlik yes first diagram vs. second https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/wiki/Verbs---owl:Class-vs.-rdf:Property#proposed-alternative
# elf-pavlik but it uses the same term verb:follow
# elf-pavlik third comes handy for relation between me and a place which i visit many times https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/wiki/Verbs---owl:Class-vs.-rdf:Property#proposed-alternative
# elf-pavlik do you see *verb:follow* reused in all diagrams?
# elf-pavlik it works as sort of gramar which doesn't require a new word (term) just to use it in little different way
# elf-pavlik if i use *verb:visit* (checkin) or *verb:read* difference in activity and qualified relation make more sense
# elf-pavlik i can visit a place or read a book or article multiple times
# elf-pavlik i also use same *verb:follow* in both directions, which doesn't require definging inverse variants for all verbs
# elf-pavlik highlighted in red on diagrams
# elf-pavlik :)
# elf-pavlik list of events which i attended https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L67-L77
# elf-pavlik list of people who attended one of those events https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-test-data/blob/master/w3c-social.jsonld#L67-L77
# elf-pavlik both use *role:attendee* edge which one can follow from either direction (starting from event, starting from person)
# elf-pavlik based on some particular type or relation to some entities one can find all of them from either direction
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