#social 2015-11-02

2015-11-02 UTC
knagano, bblfish, gm_kou, gm_kou_, wilkie_, JonathanC, tantek, the_frey, ShaneHudson, elf-pavlik, timbl_, timbl, danbri, Shane_, MarkS and cwebber2 joined the channel
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cwebber2 hello!
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pdurbin cwebber2: good morning
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cwebber2 heya pdurbin :)
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cwebber2 has been busy hacking on things for the socialwg!
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pdurbin nice
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Loqi Mcarvalh made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Media type for AS2]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86611&oldid=85263
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Loqi Mcarvalh made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Media type for AS2]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86612&oldid=86611
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Loqi Mcarvalh made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Media type for AS2]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86614&oldid=86612
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melvster raucao: this was trending yesterday : https://drewdevault.com/2015/11/01/Please-stop-using-slack.html
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melvster tl;dr dont used slack as it's proprietary, irc is more open
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Loqi Mcarvalh made 9 edits to [[Socialwg/Media type for AS2]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86623&oldid=86614
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melvster raucao: im also writing some tutorials on how to create client side apps using Solid ... Id be interested to learn how to package them better into app store, if you know about that : https://melvincarvalho.gitbooks.io/solid-tutorials/content/chapter1.html
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Loqi Mcarvalh made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Media type for AS2]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86624&oldid=86623
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Loqi Alehors made 2 edits to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86627&oldid=86409
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86628&oldid=86415
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cwebber2 hey ben_thatmustbeme
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cwebber2 around?
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cwebber2 hey melvster
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cwebber2 melvster: +1 to the don't use slack article :)
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melvster cwebber2: hi! :) ive stopped using slack so much, mainly gitter now ...
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cwebber2 melvster: hm
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melvster i like when URLs get oembedded
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cwebber2 gitter still looks fairly centralized?
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cwebber2 uses IRC and XMPP
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aaronpk why is gitter better?
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melvster fairly yes, but I have a gitter logger
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cwebber2 my XMPP roster has become sad ever since google decommissioned xmpp for a good part of their userbase ;_;
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melvster gitter is more webby imho, expands links etc., browser interfrace
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cwebber2 "you can't trust silos"
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aaronpk that sounds like slack
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aaronpk you do realize Slack is a web app that is wrapped in a native app shell right?
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aaronpk and it's the same when you go to the *.slack.com web page
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melvster slack has its own identity system, gitter uses more decentralized git login via github
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melvster i also have written my own gitter logger
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aaronpk uh, what about github login is decentralized?
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melvster which transfers from gitter to Solid
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melvster and provides privacy
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melvster aaronpk: most github users have PKI
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aaronpk "most" wtf?
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aaronpk gitter.im "sign up for free with github" takes you to github OAuth login
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aaronpk sounds pretty centralized IMO
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melvster yeah pretty centralized, id prefer a free software version
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melvster i agree
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melvster but since I store logs in Solid, Im not tied in to that centralization
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aaronpk if you wanted to, you can write your own chat interface for Slack and use its API to talk to slack chats, and keep your own logs from it too
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aaronpk their API is well documented and their clients are built using it. in typical butterfield fashion
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melvster yeah ive done that
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melvster i prefer gitter tho
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melvster it would be nice if gitter let you log in with your private key, like github does ... one day maybe ... until then we use oauth, which I dont really like that much, but at least it works ... long term it would be nice to have a free software version, just takes time to code a decent chat client
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melvster people need to be trained in using cryptography still
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aaronpk how do you log in to github with your private key?
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melvster ssh
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aaronpk i've never seen that option
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melvster you are doing it every time you do a commit
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aaronpk but...
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aaronpk that's not really logging in. to use the website you still need a password.
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melvster only for some parts ... for actually commits, most people dont use a password, they use their private key over ssh
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aaronpk yeah but you can't really use github effectively without a github identity which requires creating a github password
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aaronpk i wouldn't give github so much credit for using "PKI" as you say
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melvster aaronpk: yeah I agree with you ... much more could be done ... at least it's better than slack imho
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melvster and solid lets you use PKI
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melvster even your github ssh keys
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aaronpk also to log in to gitter, you have to use the non-PKI part of github so...
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melvster oauth
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Loqi Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86629&oldid=86628
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melvster yes that's annoying
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melvster aaronpk: I agree with you, just saying i prefer gitter to slack, neither is perfect, I'd personally like to see full PKI in both cases, like we used in Solid
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aaronpk i'm just saying i don't think the two are very different, regardless of which you prefer
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melvster fair comment
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melvster i just slightly prefer gitter, personal viewpoint only
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aaronpk preferences for UI and such are fine. but gitter deserves no credit for being decentralized
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melvster well slack centralizes identity, gitter uses delegated identity via github, I guess what I can say is I prefer that as a pattern of centralization
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melvster however Solid Is decentralized, and since I store gitter logs in Solid, and can access control them via PKI, it's possible to transition from gitter into a 100% decentralized paradigm, powered by existing keys that people use daily for SSH
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melvster it just requires building a chat UI, which is a fair bit of work ... so im happy in the mean time to compromise to get nice features, if that makes sense ...
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: I am now, whats up?
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melvster slack is MUCH harder to do the same thing due to it being an identity silo
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: hey! I had a chat with Manu and I pointed him to your josn-ld context for microformats at https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-Syntax-Brainstorming/wiki/jf2#context
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cwebber2 he thought it looked good
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cwebber2 said there might be some fancy stuff you could add about types but it wasn't necessary, was already good, and people in #json-ld on irc.freenode.net might be happy to look things over if you're interested
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, why not, I figured I'd just get things started, but I ended up just going through all the vocab I could think of being important for the space
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melvster where you thinking of hosting it? w3.org/ns/ ?
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aaronpk i think that's a conversation for another week. one step at a time :)
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ben_thatmustbeme nods
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melvster vocabs dont normally point to wikis, as anyone could edit them ... perhaps making a stable snapshot and read only, could be the way to go, otherwise looks like promising work IMHO
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ben_thatmustbeme longer version hosted in my github linked on there
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/dissolve/socialstream/blob/master/jf2.php
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aaronpk the php comments inline are great
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aaronpk too bad json doesn't support comments
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme: nice! Are you familiar with gh-pages? If you put it in there with a .jsonld extension it can be used and tested with the correct mime types etc.
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aaronpk it's on http://stream.thatmustbe.us/jf2.php right now
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ben_thatmustbeme couldn't figure out how to do comments in a json object without blowing stuff up, it is hosted on my site
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that
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ben_thatmustbeme also .. http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?url=<any mf2 webpage>
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ben_thatmustbeme already publishing that for every page on my site and a rel=alternate, just don't have a mime type for this so its just json right now, but that could easily be fixed
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ben_thatmustbeme s/and a/as a/
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melvster there you go
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melvster http://melvincarvalho.github.io/data/ns/mf.jsonld
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melvster curl -I http://melvincarvalho.github.io/data/ns/mf.jsonld
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melvster HTTP/1.1 200 OK
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melvster Server: GitHub.com
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melvster Content-Type: application/ld+json
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melvster I dont think you can do comments in JSON :( ... you can in turtle tho
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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aaronpk right that's why ben put the comments in PHP and then hosted the doc on his site
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cwebber2 melvster: aaronpk: ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, the lack of comments in json is personally pretty annoying to me
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melvster cwebber2++
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Loqi cwebber2 has 50 karma
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aaronpk the funny thing is Javascript can parse JSON with comments just fine!
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, but lots of others don't... annoyingly
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ben_thatmustbeme i was testing with json-ld.org/playground and it wasn't happy with it at all, but then i found other bugs in there too
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aaronpk actually i bet javascript's JSON.parse doesn't handle it. it only works in javascript because it's a native object.
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cwebber2 yeah and you don't want to parse things via it being a native objedt
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cwebber2 object
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cwebber2 for code execution issues reasons :)
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aaronpk yup
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cwebber2 sometimes when I've complained about lack of comments in json
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cwebber2 I hear back
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cwebber2 "well it's a data serialization format, it's not for humans!"
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cwebber2 so... why does it support whitespace?
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melvster lol
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ben_thatmustbeme want to laugh btw, go to json-ld.org/playground and enter {"@context": [ {"url":"mf:id"}]} then change mf:id to mf:@id
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ben_thatmustbeme cwebber, haha, very true
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elf-pavlik have you tried YAML in cases where you need commens? if you use just a subset of it many tools can converti it to JSON
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melvster ben_thatmustbeme++
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melvster lol
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 115 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme i always seem to find ways to break things
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melvster if you really need comments, you might want to try turtle, that's the main thing that I use
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melvster it's more declarative than php
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melvster and converts 1-1 to JSON LD
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kevinmarks melvster, have you seen the indieweb salck/irc gateway?
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kevinmarks http://slack.indiewebcamp.com/
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kevinmarks aaronpk is being too modest to mention it
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aaronpk :)
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kevinmarks indiewebcamp.com/irc/today?beta#bottom is better than slack in several ways too
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aaronpk it bridges the two rooms so chat from both appears in both, plus everything is available via our web interface which is *also* a chat client
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melvster nice, yeah my client does that too, but importantly to us, you can access control the room
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melvster im not sure I've ever seen a W3C spec point to a wiki page ...
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aaronpk html5 references the microformats 2 wiki for its list of rel values
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ben_thatmustbeme and we've been through this several times and been told its fine for specs to normatively reference microformats wiki
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melvster told by whom?
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aaronpk it's been documented in many meeting minutes by this point
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melvster yes, but who told you this?
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aaronpk i don't remember, i will leave that as an exercise for the reader
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melvster ok, just curious
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ben_thatmustbeme it was confirmed with timbl at F2F i believe
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ben_thatmustbeme F2F at MIT that is
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ben_thatmustbeme harry had also mentioned it several times as i recall
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Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86631&oldid=86629
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: btw, I've come to realize that my Activipy library is more generic than ActivityStreams and just kind of gives a pythonic wrapper with method dispatch for defined vocabularies
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cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: so I'd be interested in trying to providing support in it for an MF2 based vocab
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cwebber2 could be a good way to bridge our worlds
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cwebber2 (in other words, I think the work you're doing on the AS2 vocab is really important, keep it up!)
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cwebber2 (and maybe I can ship support in Activipy as well)
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be cool
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ben_thatmustbeme i am going to play around with going the other way next i think. transforming JSON to mf2 that will parse to equivalent json when run through the mf2 parser
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kevinmarks JSON as in js2?
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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