#social 2015-11-03
2015-11-03 UTC
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# 
Loqi Rene-peinl made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86635&oldid=86534
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# 
melvster raucao: http://ircanywhere.com/
# 
raucao melvster: we're using the irc npm module from them
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# Loqi Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86641&oldid=86631
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86642&oldid=86641
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# Loqi Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86645&oldid=86642
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# hhalpin waves
# Loqi hhalpin: kevinmarks left you a message on 10/20 at 1:30pm: do you have the slides from https://youtu.be/BOLIuBr_2uM online? http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-10-20/line/1445373024315
# hhalpin Note everyone, the webex password has changed
# hhalpin due to MIT having issues with the password and so WebEx being misued.
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# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/03-social-irc
# Shane_ Made dinner, ready at 1 minute to the hour. That is good timing!
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# azaroth Present+ Rob_Sanderson
# Shane_ present+
# azaroth I think it's Rene
# azaroth cwebber2++
# rene present+
# Shane_ I can scribe
# eprodrom Sorry, is the code still SOCL?
# Shane_ scribeNick: Shane_
# Shane_ Hah
# eprodrom present+ eprodrom
# hhalpin Yep, I put in there just while people we're dialing in - will change it once we get everyone in.
# Shane_ I normally need don't need a password but did this time
# eprodrom Scanning now
# 
ben_thatmustbeme present+ ben_thatmustbeme
# eprodrom +1 looks complete
# 
Arnaud RESOLVED: Approval of Minutes of 2015-10-20 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-20-minutes
# Shane_ Arnaud: Quickly another reminder about face to face meeting, if you haven't done so please indicate your attendance.
# Shane_ ... we will soon start working on logistics for the face to face
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# Shane_ ... Tantek entertained a breakout session at TPAC, about 25 people or so at the session
# Shane_ ...Not much to take away from the working group, but worth reading through the minutes
# Shane_ tantek: The discussion was very lively and had interest for participation in the WG
# Shane_ ...Photo there, you can see lots of people there. You can see Tim Berners-Lee attended, it was very animated
# 
tantek rhiaro's minutes in IRC: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-10-27#t1445996391422
# Shane_ Arnaud: The primary goal was to advertise the WG and any new members so much the better
# Shane_ ... Trying to streamline the discussion on the agenda
# Shane_ ... Evan has voluntered to be a co-editor
# Shane_ ... If anyone is concerned, let us know
# azaroth +1 and Evan++
# hhalpin_ +1
# rene +1
# Shane_ Evan: My only question is if there is any conflict with being a chair and co-editor?
# hhalpin_ Its unusual but three chairs is also unusual.
# Shane_ Arnaud: If you are willing to put in the time it takes, you are very welcome
# eprodrom +1
# eprodrom Thanks everyone
# hhalpin_ I would suggest that if you feel there is a conflict of interest between the two roles, you simply tell the other chairs and editor.
# Shane_ Arnaud: I sent an email about the agenda, there was a lot of different proposals regarding AS 2.0 and it would be time consuming to go through them one by one
# 
jasnell in the batch of "proposed to accept", let's pull [Activity Streams 2.0] Proposal: Remove @context from all examples - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/233 (Ben) out separately.
# azaroth +1 to separating 233, per email
# hhalpin_ present+ hhalpin
# Shane_ ... I took the liberty to bunch together some propsals, proposing to approve all as a batch
# Shane_ ... If you have any concerns with any one proposal, say so. No need to justify now
# Shane_ ... Please speak up, otherwise we will vote on the rest and hopefully agree these are the proposals, then focus on the others on a more systematic approach
# ben_thatmustbeme q+ removal of @context example
# ben_thatmustbeme sigh
# ben_thatmustbeme q- removal of @context example
# Shane_ Arnaud: There are proposals from a few people
# ben_thatmustbeme that one has had a fair number of -1s
# Shane_ Arnaud: Is there any request for removal from that batch?
# azaroth +1
# rene +1
# Shane_ +1
# ben_thatmustbeme wait, that list is missing 223
# ben_thatmustbeme okay
# ben_thatmustbeme wasn't sure the way it was nested
# Shane_ Arnaud: Ben, we can look at that one next
# eprodrom +1
# tantek FYI I edited the minutes from 2 weeks ago to add a few more topic subheadings: https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Socialwg%2F2015-10-20-minutes&diff=86648&oldid=86072
# Arnaud [Activity Streams 2.0] Proposal: `mediaType` on Content objects - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/223#issuecomment-151176900 (James)
# Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86647&oldid=86627
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-10-20-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86648&oldid=86072
# 
kevinmarks present+
# kevinmarks was confused looking for a new dial-in code, when that didn't change
# Shane_ jasnell: This proposal is from Elf, he may be able to explain it better. It is about whether we need object types for Blob, such as image data. We already have Image and Video but that is for describing metadata of the image. The proposal is about the actual data.
# Shane_ Arnaud: Elf is not on today
# Shane_ jasnell: Defer it until he is here
# Shane_ Arnaud: Unless anyone else wants to speak up?
# Shane_ jasnell: #229 should cover it, but will wait for Elf
# Shane_ Arnaud: There is the @context, do we want to start with that one?
# hhalpin_ kevinmarks, did you get in without a dial-in code?
# kevinmarks just the 9 digit one
# ben_thatmustbeme q+ to say that I'm okay to waiting for this on non-telcon time
# Shane_ Arnaud: Happy to leave it to those who are involved in the discussion, if they would gain from using the teleconference time
# kevinmarks POTS via google
# Shane_ ben_thatmustbeme: I'm ok with not wasting time on it. Sounds like annotations group are going to go other direction on it
# Shane_ tantek: The only thing I was going to add is since we have rob and ben on the phone it may be good to have the chance for them to discuss it
# Shane_ Rob: The annotations group originally left them off to make samples clearer, we reversed it on the grounds of developers being likely to cut and paste and make sure their code produces code that looks like the samples. Which is not what we wanted to end up with
# Shane_ ... We haven't yet published the reversal
# Shane_ Arnaud: Ben, since the discussion is still going do you want to respond?
# Shane_ Ben: I'm ok with leaving them there, there have been several -1s so I would be ok leaving them there
# Shane_ ... James has said context is optional in the past, based on other arguments people say it must be there for JSON-LD
# Shane_ Arnaud: There are people pushing for just JSON. We should not tie this question to the bigger issue
# Shane_ ... We should separate the discussions
# Arnaud PROPOSED: Keep @context from all examples - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/233 (Ben)
# azaroth +1
# rene +1
# ben_thatmustbeme i can live with it
# Shane_ +0 I have no reason not to, not a big fan though
# azaroth q+ to clarify
# Shane_ jasnell: The annotations working group have the option of requring JSON-LD things, in this WG we decided to say JSON as in charter but never required JSON-LD
# Shane_ Oh whoops, it is ben then?
# azaroth that was tantek :)
# Shane_ oops, sorry!
# rene looking at the current drafts it seems a lot like JSON-LD is the primary serialization the WG is looking at
# Shane_ Arnaud: It was approved by the working group
# Shane_ tantek: Then we have a difference between a couple of the chairs, we can discuss later
# Arnaud RESOLVED: Keep @context from all examples - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/233 (Ben)
# kevinmarks at the time we discussed JSON-LD we were told that @context was optional
# Shane_ Arnaud: I can live with a 0 and so will call it resolved
# azaroth q-
# Arnaud Proposal: Remove "hreflang" - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/219
# Shane_ Arnaud: A proposal to remove href lang
# azaroth kevinmarks, cwebber2: +1 to clarifying. 1.2 of AS-core implies it's required, at least to me
# Shane_ cwebber2: The object wasn't designed to have parity, the justification for removing it hasn't been made
# kevinmarks right, cwebber2 - the implied @context was the way to map the JSON to JSON-LD for those who want it
# Shane_ Arnaud: Ok, anyone wants to speak to the flip side?
# azaroth q+ to agree with jasnell that it's useful
# Shane_ Ben: I can't see how it is useful, yes it is in html but so is a lot of things. We should prove useful not what's not useful. You can't prove a negative
# hhalpin_ I think you can prove a 'negative' if its not used by developers in the wild.
# hhalpin_ That's an empirical question, but we're a bit early here.
# hhalpin_ We could see if href was heavily used in Atom though.
# hhalpin_ s/href/hreflang
# Shane_ Ben: I didn't see anything very conclusive, I didn't see anything in the language spec/best practises spec that was published
# azaroth q?
# Shane_ Arnaud: Are you saying you don't buy it as being valid?
# hhalpin_ q+
# Shane_ Ben: Not really
# Shane_ azaroth: We had the same use case with the same outcome, we useful DC language but the result is the same
# Shane_ ... The language are not available by content negotiation
# Shane_ ...The annotation might be the only source of language, you may not know which source to use
# melvster tantek: JSON LD generic processing would require @context -- list of adopters: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Media_type_for_AS2#Iterop_Considerations_-_application.2Fld.2Bjson
# kevinmarks +1 on deleting things not used in practice
# Shane_ hhalpin_: Examples are easy to make. We may be premature in using hreflang, if there are elements that are not used once we go through them then they should be removed from the AS 2.0 spec or the vocab
# Shane_ Arnaud: If there are certain features that no one wants to implement then we will delete them
# hhalpin_ That being said, making the spec as simple as possible in the beginning (rather than as complex as possible, as we get with some specs) helps you get implementers for CR!
# Arnaud Proposal: keep "hreflang" - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/219, revisit at CR
# Shane_ Ben: I'm ok waiting till CR
# azaroth q+ to suggest maintaining at-risk list
# azaroth heh
# azaroth q-
# hhalpin_ Marking it 'at risk' makes sense
# rene +0
# Shane_ +1 to at risk
# hhalpin_ +1
# Arnaud PROPOSED: keep "hreflang" - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/219, marking it "AT RISK"
# azaroth +1 to keep, at risk
# Shane_ +1
# Shane_ Arnaud: It allows you to drop things without cycling through the whole discussion again
# Arnaud RESOLVED: keep "hreflang" - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/219, marking it "AT RISK"
# Arnaud Proposal: Object partOf Collection - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/205
# Shane_ Arnaud: We don't have Amy on the call today
# Shane_ jasnell: Previously we had a memberOf property, that was removed as there wasn't any interest at the time. When we revisited the paging model, part of that was indicating the model of the current page.
# Shane_ Arnaud: So it is two-fold, should we have this information back should we piggy back or bring old name back
# kevinmarks how is this different from using categories/tags?
# Shane_ jasnell: There are memberOf in other vocabs, so could use one of those as extension
# azaroth q+
# Shane_ Arnaud: It sounds like she wants the relationship but doesn't care about the name
# Shane_ Rob: It would be valuable, regarding the memberOf and other vocabularies, my understanding is that AS has long since decided to create its own vocabulary regardless of other exisiting. So it shouldn't affect us here.
# Shane_ ...With my annotations WG head on, this would be very useful to us
# kevinmarks in AS1 it was implicit
# eprodrom unfortunately I have to drop off
# kevinmarks as there were many streams
# eprodrom Will read the minutes
# Shane_ Tantek: I was wondering if there is any precedant in AS 1 that could help our decision
# Shane_ jasnell: Nope
# rene if we reject the proposal with the reason that other vocabularies can be used, I would suggest to keep a hint somewhere in the spec how this specific case should be treated with an extension
# azaroth -1 to tagging/categories
# Shane_ jasnell: Folks can do it with tags and categories but this is more about the current properties
# Shane_ Arnaud: There is no backwards compatibility, the question is do we add it or not
# Shane_ ... It can be done as an extension and sounds like the annotations working group will do that
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 to Defer for Amy
# Arnaud Proposal: Type for object of an Offer - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/175 (Evan
# Shane_ Arnaud: I don't want to close it without Amy being here. Let's move on
# Shane_ Arnaud: I missed the fact Evan had dropped off. He has a bunch of issues
# Shane_ Arnaud: Evan and Elf next week
# Arnaud Media type discussions - https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/52
# azaroth q+ to note discussion with IETF last week
# Shane_ jasnell: The short summary is that currently the AS spec defines the slot, the argument is the build upon the JSON-LD type with a profile parametre
# rene There seems no consensus on that we are actually building on JSON-LD
# hhalpin_ +1 jasnell
# Shane_ jasnell: We are not supporting all JSON-LD mechanisms, we are not requiring all implementers to use it. I think using JSON-LD is the correct way to do it. There is a discussion on going
# jasnell I have offered the following compromise: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/52#issuecomment-153404878
# Shane_ Rob: At TPAC we had a discussion, at IETF meeting there has just been a discussion about having media types at the same weight as the regular media types
# Shane_ ... If that was a concern then the annotations group will be pushing them on it, it should be possible
# Shane_ ... We considered that we also have a bunch of restrictions, the profile was sufficent to add in the requirements in a machine processable and normative fashion. You must do JSON-LD and use this frame, can't say that normatively of course.
# Shane_ ... Not to push this group one way or another, but worth considering
# Shane_ cwebber2: I think this ties in partly with what tantek was discussing about requiring @context, we agreed that there would be an implied @context with JSON-LD under the hood.
# Shane_ ... If someone with a scripting language is just hacking away, they will know it will be provided without having to worry about it. Keeping it simple.
# azaroth q+ to ask if *every* schema should register a media type?
# Shane_ ... It seems weird as the core doesn't do much without the core vocab, the way I understood before is that we would deliver it based on having a mime type. If there are other ways to express it, technically it was always possible.
# Shane_ ...I think it is useful to have some way to say to teh users that there is a simple document, it is technically JSON-LD but no need to overcomplicate it
# Shane_ jasnell: A valid AS 2.0 document is not a valid JSON-LD, it allows things to be used that are not valid. It does say there is additional processing required for some features
# Shane_ ... Advertising that as a JSON-LD document is a bit of a lie, because it is not
# Shane_ ... There is enough differences between the two that warrants AS having its own media type
# Shane_ ... Okay we can address it with a profile but that is optional for implementors to support
# Shane_ ... The JSON-LD spec only says what a implementation SHOULD do
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# hhalpin_ Also, rss and atom had their own media-types, so there is precedent
# rene if it is true that a valid AS 2.0 document doesn't have to be a valid JSON-LD document, than the profile is no solution
# Shane_ Arnaud: The JSON-LD portion appears to be controversal, some people want more linked data. This is loosing sight of the fact that the spec was written for two possible views of the world, not force one view on everybody
# Shane_ ... The pressure I see on both sides are pushing for one view or another, the current draft is trying to carve a compromise
# Shane_ ... It would be wise to bring up things if they are required to be tuned, try not to get into religious debate about linked data or not
# rene I wonder whether it is necessary to allow AS 2.0 documents that look like JSON-LD but are not valid due to subtle differences
# Shane_ Rob: Given was James' said, it seems justified that a different media type be used, but I would propose that any features that are not JSON-LD compatible will be called out so that people know what would be lost
# rene +1 to rob
# azaroth +1 to jasnell suggestion of equivalent profile
# Shane_ jasnell: For leaving in the application activity + json activity type, but should treat with profile as being equivalent. If they don't care then it is fine.
# azaroth Propose that profile doc might be good place for listing non-round-trippable content?
# Shane_ Arnaud: We will not close this issue yet, hoping we are starting to see the light
# ben_thatmustbeme perhaps a note of how to convert AS2 to JSON-LD ?
# Shane_ ... There are two more items on the agenda, will use the last minute to let cwebber2 make an announcement
# rene if there are two worlds, why not express that in using different media types?
# tantek q+ to remind folks about IndieWebCamp MIT Nov 7-8! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT please sign-up on the Guest List if you want to come (no charge, no need to be member of WG) https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT/Guest_List
# Shane_ cwebber2: I have a very short announcement which is I just posted to the list an implementation of AS 2.0 that tries to implement as simplified so that it uses JSON-LD behind the hood
# 
Zakim tantek, you wanted to remind folks about IndieWebCamp MIT Nov 7-8! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT please sign-up on the Guest List if you want to come (no charge, no need to be
# Zakim ... member of WG) https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT/Guest_List
# Shane_ tantek: Just a quick announcement, this week coming up is IWC MIT 7th 8th all day, posted a URL into IRC. Can sign up by adding to wiki page, no charge. Welcome to bring any friends, don't need to be a member of WG
# Shane_ Arnaud: Let's close on this, thank you all for joining
# azaroth Thanks all!
# Shane_ Arnaud: Evan should be chairing on Nov 10th
# ben_thatmustbeme Shane++
# Shane_ Sorry about the slight name mismatches heh
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/03-social-minutes.html trackbot
# azaroth Did you consider GeoJSON-LD ? https://github.com/geojson/geojson-ld
# Shane_ Hah
# 
aaronpk oh there's a whole giant thread about it https://github.com/geojson/geojson-ld/issues/32
# Shane_ Took me long enough to write a JSON parser
# azaroth cwebber2: hehe
# Shane_ Are these minutes alright? Not done it in a while, so the process has changed a bit. https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-11-03-minutes
# azaroth Yeah it's a -ld mapping, though I'm not sure how sgillies handled the list of lists issue
# azaroth (sorry, was moving to my next meeting)
# Shane_ *GEOJSON parser, not JSON!
# rene I always thought using WKT would be a reasonable way to represent it in any data format
# Loqi Shudson made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86649&oldid=0
# Shane_ cwebber2: I really like it at a brief glance. So much easier to visualise with code than just data structures, though that might just be me!
# 
cwebber2 tantek: btw, http://activipy.readthedocs.org/en/latest/about.html kind of speaks to the thing being said today on the call I THINK
# cwebber2 > And simple is good, because let’s face it, most users of most web application APIs are like poor Billy Scripter, a kid who has some scripting language like Ruby or Python or Javascript and some JSON parser in a toolbox and that’s about it. Billy Scripter knows how to parse JSON pulled down from some endpoint, and that’s about all he knows how to do. Poor Billy Scripter! But it’s okay, because ActivityStreams is simple enough that
# Loqi Shudson made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-03-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86650&oldid=86649
# kevinmarks wilkie: indiewebcamp MIT is a weekend of hacking, you can remote attend
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# tantek wilkie add yourself! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT/Guest_List#Remote_Participants
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# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: right now it IS mf2 vocabular with a few minor changes since it literally just grabs the MF2 and converts it to a trimmed down JSON format, the @context i made just points to appropriate wiki pages for those values
# tantek nice - definitely add yourself! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT/Guest_List#Remote_Participants
# jasnell Updated working drafts based on today's decisions: http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-core/ and http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-vocabulary/
# ben_thatmustbeme that was fast
# ben_thatmustbeme jasnell++
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# Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86652&oldid=0
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# Loqi Mcarvalh made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Media type for AS2]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86653&oldid=86624
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