#social 2015-11-24
2015-11-24 UTC
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# 
Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-11-24]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86878&oldid=86876
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# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-24]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86879&oldid=86878
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# Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-24]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86880&oldid=86879
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# Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-24]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86881&oldid=86880
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# Loqi Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86883&oldid=86882
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# Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86885&oldid=86884
# 
eprodrom Hello, all!
# eprodrom Hello wilkie !
# bengo Must I be part of a w3 member org to telecon?
# Loqi Tantekelik made 5 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86891&oldid=86885
# Loqi Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86888&oldid=86887
# azaroth bengo: You have to be a member of the WG, yes (but you could be an invited expert without a member org)
# azaroth At least that's the regular policy
# eprodrom regrets: I'm going to be out for the first half of the call in another meeting
# bengo Alright. I would happily be that. Until then I will just watch via IRC.
# azaroth bengo: See https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg under How to Participate :)
# bengo azaroth, thx. I left some +-
{0,1} on agenda items last night# Loqi Rsanders made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86892&oldid=86891
# 
ben_thatmustbeme hello
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/24-social-irc
# azaroth Present+ Rob_Sanderson
# ben_thatmustbeme present+
# azaroth Present+ Rob_Sanderson
# ben_thatmustbeme present+
# ben_thatmustbeme there are only 5 people dialed in
# azaroth ScribeNick: azaroth
# ben_thatmustbeme azaroth++
# azaroth Scribe: Rob_Sanderson
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# azaroth Tantek: Approval of minutes. Last week's called cancelled, so the week before.
# azaroth ... +1s?
# bengo present+
# azaroth +1
# azaroth ... Resolved
# ben_thatmustbeme heh yeah, ohh loqi
# azaroth ... Next on the agenda, next week we'll be meeting face to face in San Francisco
# azaroth ... Dec 1,2 at Mozilla San Francisco
# azaroth ... Enter on the first floor and will get a badge and directions
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# azaroth ... Calling out the required reading section. Everyone who's participating is expected to read it
# azaroth ... We'll discuss those docs directly, and will not summarize them
# azaroth ... If there's anything you want to resolve / approve / etc, then please read them first
# azaroth ... We'll be linking them up soon
# azaroth ... (Or anyone else can too)
# azaroth ... Questions?
# azaroth ... Will try to be on IRC, but of course have Thanksgiving Thursday/Friday
# azaroth ... So those two days probably not, so any questions please send them in sooner rather than later
# azaroth Topic: Technical items for discussion
# azaroth Tantek: James sent his regrets, so propose we defer discussion of AS items until the F2F
# azaroth ... If there's specific items that people here think they can make progress on without James, please say?
# azaroth ... Any items we can move forward on?
# azaroth ... tumbleweed ...
# ben_thatmustbeme crickets
# azaroth ... Silence as acceptance to defer
# azaroth ... Please Q+ anything that comes up. Most were in the queue from last time.
# azaroth ... Next area ... aaronpk has added WebMention.
# azaroth aaronpk: We've talked about WebMention in the past. A few of us have been working on cleaning it up to share with the group
# azaroth ... We have a draft that should be sufficient as an ED for the group
# azaroth ... Nothing new from the specification side, but the document is new
# azaroth ... A start towards the federation protocol
# azaroth ... It's not tied to microformats, though most implementations use them at the moment
# azaroth ... should be applicable to other types of documents as well
# azaroth ... Any questions?
# azaroth Tantek: Thanks for getting this into ED state, really appreciate that.
# azaroth ... Lots of time spent on AS as the most mature doc we had coming in. WebMention explicitly mentioned as input in the charter, so good to make progress in multiple areas
# azaroth ... We can just go ahead and accept it as ED, but a spearate step to publish as FPWD
# azaroth ... Want to ask those on the call if there's objections? Or questions?
# azaroth q+
# azaroth azaroth: Where to send feedback on the doc? github issues?
# azaroth aaronpk: Thinking about it :) I like using github for questions, nice threaded view. Will get back to you on that
# azaroth Tantek: Looking at the header at the top, I see a wiki for open issues.
# azaroth ... I share the question, and that gh issues could be considered
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i'd agree, that github usually works well
# azaroth ... I created an issues only gh for post-type discovery draft, that could be something to consider
# 
wilkie there are two places I see mentioned: http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention-brainstorming http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
# azaroth aaronpk: Should I make it in the socialWG account?
# azaroth tantek: Yes, that seems the best
# azaroth ... As an example ^^ the post type discovery spec
# azaroth aaronpk: I'd be happy to do that
# azaroth azaroth: No problem :)
# azaroth tantek: Looks fairly spec like, what do you need to be ready for FPWD? What are you blocked on, or is it ready?
# azaroth aaronpk: From my perspective it's functional enough to push forwards, however I'd love to get feedback
# azaroth ... Make sure it's clear enough from an implementation perspective
# azaroth ... Also just more technical clean up to move things around, but mostly just removing / reorienting text
# ben_thatmustbeme would that be after accepting as editor's draft though?
# azaroth tantek: Would like to add to required reading
# azaroth ... it looks like it's been through a lot of iterations, we can approve at the f2f
# azaroth ... objections?
# bengo +1 to required reading
# azaroth cwebber2: No objections, wondering whether it makes sense to do the same for activity pump?
# azaroth tantek: To be clear, which area of the charter do you think activity pump comes in?
# azaroth cwebber2: Under social api and federation api
# azaroth tantek: I think that's something we should add. I see no problem adding. Did you have something ready?
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86893&oldid=86892
# azaroth ... a separate topic
# azaroth ... Adding to agenda.
# azaroth ... Did you have a question about webmention?
# azaroth ... No other questions, move on to next item.
# 
melvster I dont like the idea of source and target variables flying around without namespaces ... id look at semantic pingback : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Pingback#Semantic_Pingback
# azaroth Topic: Social API - micropub
# azaroth tantek: Another one for aaronpk
# 
kevinmarks melvster: it's a defined endpoint; it doesn't need namespaces
# azaroth ... Noting that micropub wasn't in the initial list of docs when we started the WG, so a bit different context, but provide details for why it should be considered
# azaroth aaronpk: Going through a lot of iterations based on feedback from the group
# azaroth ... It's not as mature as webmention, so not ready as ED. Proposal is to consider it as such, knowing that we'll continue to work on it and it'll evolve much more than webmention
# azaroth ... Link ^^
# azaroth ... The text needs work, lots of cleanup needed before anyone should read through it
# bengo Other links that have been mentioned: https://w3c-social.github.io/SocialAPI/socialapi https://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/
# azaroth ... I'll send a note when it's ready to look at
# azaroth ... any questions about it?
# ben_thatmustbeme points out his name dropped from micropub.net accidently :P
# azaroth tantek: What is the specific proposal?
# azaroth ... Want it considered as ED for the group?
# azaroth aaronpk: That's correct
# azaroth ... I think it fulfils the API part of the charter as a self contained building block
# azaroth ... goes along side webmention but not coupled to any particular aspects
# azaroth Arnaud: I'm a bit confused. I don't see how the document compares to what Amy has been putting together?
# azaroth aaronpk: This is mostly just existing micropub, but goal is to reconcile with what Amy has been doing
# 
bigbluehat anyone have a link to "what Amy's been doing"? :) trying to catch-up
# azaroth ... to make it work with what we've been working with collectively
# azaroth Arnaud: But if it was a rec, we wouldn't need Amy's document?
# bengo bigbluehat I think https://w3c-social.github.io/SocialAPI/socialapi
# azaroth aaronpk: Can we combine them into the same proposal?
# bigbluehat bengo: thanks!
# azaroth ... Amy is here?
# azaroth tantek: We had that doc accepted as ED from Amy
# azaroth rhiaro_: What I wrote was an outline of the different pieces
# azaroth ... would like to see them replaced by individual specs
# azaroth ... if there's anything left, then we can spec those later
# kevinmarks Amy's doc refences micropub already
# azaroth ... So if the doc disappeared to be replaced, that would be fine
# kevinmarks Creating content
# azaroth Sandro: Which piece of your doc does this replace?
# azaroth Amy :Creating content
# azaroth sandro: so long as it's one section, that makes sense
# bengo azaroth If SocialAPI is editor's draft, should it be listed here? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Drafts If so, are any other ED missing?
# azaroth rhiaro_: micropub is creating content, webmention is mentioning
# azaroth tantek: Amy's doc on the required reading list
# azaroth ... also an ED for the WG. My preference would be to see both docs move forwards. Premature to say one could replace the other
# azaroth ... Trust that the editors of the docs will work together to explain the relationships
# azaroth ... an action on both?
# azaroth ... That something that rhiaro_ and aaronpk can take on?
# azaroth Both: Yes happy to do that
# azaroth tantek: Lets make an action then
# kevinmarks Amy's draft already does mention it
# azaroth ACTION rhiaro_ to explain relationship to aaronpk's document
# 
trackbot Error finding 'rhiaro_'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
# azaroth ACTION rhiaro to explain relationship to aaronpk's document
# azaroth ACTION aaronpk to explain relationship to rhiaro's document
# azaroth tantek: Not seeing any questions ....
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-11-24]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86894&oldid=86881
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86895&oldid=86893
# azaroth Arnaud: I think it's premature before we understand how they relate
# azaroth ... I'd like the decision to be deferred
# azaroth tantek: I think Amy and aaronpk answered that?
# azaroth aaronpk: We accepted we'd clarify, but it hasn't yet been clarified
# azaroth Arnaud: Exactly :)
# kevinmarks it's already clear in Amy's draft, just needs backref in micropub
# azaroth tantek: Your preference is to wait for that
# bigbluehat +1 to clarity
# azaroth Arnaud: Indeed
# azaroth tantek: aaronpk are you okay with that?
# azaroth +1 to clarify first
# azaroth tantek: Amy?
# azaroth rhiaro: A process question, can someone point me to ED definition?
# azaroth ... not even a commitment to publishing
# azaroth tantek: Your understanding is correct
# azaroth ... a new doc that has not been mentioned in the charter, so we need to explicitly accept it or not
# azaroth ... my understanding from Arnaud is that before deciding he would need to know the relationship. I think that's a reasonable request
# bengo rhiaro "Working Groups and Interest Groups may make available "Editor's drafts". Editor's drafts have no official standing whatsoever, and do not necessarily imply consensus of a Working Group or Interest Group, nor are their contents endorsed in any way by W3C." http://www.w3.org/2015/Process-20150901/
# azaroth ... so no argument regarding next steps
# azaroth Arnaud: For the record, I don't vote in WGs that I chair, so feel free to ignore if you want. I'd answer Amy's question a little differently, when we accept it as ED it's the first step on putting it in REC track
# azaroth ... no guarantee that any document gets there, but it's an important first step
# azaroth sandro: I think it makes sense for aaron to write a proposal in the syntax and style of a draft for what could go in creating content section
# azaroth ... if the WG accepts the proposal, then that could go in to be a spec, but we haven't started looking at it at all
# azaroth ... labeling it as ED would communicate that we had decided to go in that direction
# azaroth ... so better to call it a proposal
# azaroth ... no decision here, just communication issues
# azaroth tantek: I didn't hear from aaron or anyone an assertion of direction. Can raise for the WG?
# azaroth sandro: Could be okay with ED if it's clearly labeled as not necessarily the direction of WG
# azaroth arnaud: what gain?
# azaroth tantek: WG is working on it
# azaroth ... I think the direction concern is valid
# azaroth sandro: Important part is feedback from the group that we would like a solid proposal
# bengo Might as well wait until after F2F to dub new EDs
# azaroth ... no pun intended :)
# azaroth refuses to scribe :P
# ben_thatmustbeme groans at sandro's puns
# kevinmarks micropun
# bigbluehat micropun++
# azaroth tantek: Aaron you have a request for next steps. Arnaud's request reasonable. Clarity of direction from Sandro
# azaroth aaronpk: Should I label the page as a proposal?
# azaroth tantek: Its your draft, so long as you don't claim it from the WG.
# azaroth aaronpk: Can we clarify sandro's request?
# azaroth tantek: that the draft explicitly state it's not implying a direction, it's one approach but not claiming a specific direction
# azaroth sandro: So long as it doesn't go on WG list of EDs
# azaroth tantek: But to get it on the list, it shouldn't imply direction
# azaroth Arnaud: On the wiki page, we should have a section for proposals, not items the WG is working on
# azaroth tantek: We have a list of things the group is working on
# azaroth ... will add that section to the home page
# azaroth +1 to list of proposals
# azaroth Tantek: By that request, you're saying we should list micropub as a proposal
# azaroth Arnaud: I think that's reasonable to do
# azaroth ... that seems the case, there's a proposal that we can acknowledge
# azaroth tantek: Sandro?
# azaroth sandro: Yep
# azaroth tantek: Okay, great.
# azaroth ACTION tantek to add proposal section to social web WG page, with micropub as first entry
# ben_thatmustbeme micropub.net
# azaroth Tantek: Can you put the URL? micropub.net?
# azaroth ... Thank you
# azaroth ... No one on the queue ... any other questions?
# azaroth ... We agreed to list as a proposal. Aaron, do you intend to discuss at the F2F?
# azaroth aaronpk: That'd be great if we have time for that
# azaroth tantek: Objections to adding micropub to required readings?
# azaroth sandro: How long to read?
# azaroth aaronpk: I don't know 15 minutes? The syntax part is the important part
# azaroth sandro: Can we say that on the reading list?
# kevinmarks can we read AS2 in 15 minutes?
# azaroth tantek: Other questions?
# azaroth ACTION tantek to add micropub to required reading list
# bengo +1 to reading
# kevinmarks the reason micropub is so long is that it has a list of implemntations in it
# azaroth tantek: No other questions, moving on
# bigbluehat aaronpk: kevinmarks: maybe the list of implementations could be moved to an appendix?
# azaroth Topic: Activity Pump for consideration at F2F
# azaroth cwebber: Didn't mean to interupt earlier. Would like people to read the Acitivty Pump spec for the F2F
# azaroth ... some areas that could do with review, but areas that we haven't come to consensus on
# azaroth ... Structure is pretty well understood
# azaroth ... Prior version has multiple implementations, could fulfil social and federation APIs
# kevinmarks the wiki version has a toc and numbers http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
# azaroth ... So would like consideration towards both of those areas
# azaroth ... Amy has been helping to reshape the docs to make them clearer
# azaroth ... As is, I think it's readable enough for the F2F
# kevinmarks so that is easier to read that the moment, arnaud
# azaroth tantek: Link please?
# azaroth sandro: How long?
# azaroth cwebber: I don;t think it'll take that long. 15-20 minutes probably?
# kevinmarks if you start here http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Methodology
# azaroth tantek: Thank you Chris. Proposal is to discuss at F2F. And thus add to required reading.
# azaroth cwebber2: Yes adding to required. Would like to have it move forwards in the same way as micropub etc
# azaroth tantek: Not one of the documents in the charter, so would take the same route. Need to agree as a group to take it on as ED as the next step, after people have read and discussed
# azaroth ... soonest would be at teh F2F.
# azaroth cwebber2: That sounds good
# azaroth tantek: WebMention is a bit different, as it's in the charter
# azaroth ... F2F can hopefully discuss whether to publish as FPWD
# azaroth tantek: Propose to accept Pump as required reading?
# azaroth ... Objections?
# azaroth +1
# azaroth ACTION tantek to add Activity Pump to the list of required reading for F2F
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86896&oldid=86858
# Loqi Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86899&oldid=86897
# Loqi Kmarks2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86897&oldid=86895
# azaroth tantek: Should add it to the proposals section too
# azaroth ACTION tantek to add activity pump to proposals section of the home page
# ben_thatmustbeme waves to sandro
# azaroth tantek: Okay, that brings us to open issues catch all section
# azaroth ... Looking at the tracker ... separation of concerns issue?
# azaroth ... Raised by Elf, are you on the call?
# azaroth ... Not on the call, so moving on.
# azaroth ... Next is pending review, #40
# azaroth ... Item we think is completed. WG to accept that it has been completed. Raised by james
# azaroth ... Don't think he needs to be here
# azaroth ... Already resolved it. Any objections to closing?
# azaroth ... Chris?
# azaroth ... Closing. Pending review actions, we have none. So end of the tracking issues section.
# azaroth Topic: Next Telco
# azaroth Tantek: Next telco is the 8th, with Arnaud as the chair
# azaroth ... Next meeting is next week, the F2F.
# azaroth ... Everyone remember to do your required reading, which we added a bunch of things to
# azaroth ... See you all next week
# bigbluehat waves
# azaroth Topic: Adjourned
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/24-social-minutes.html trackbot
# azaroth No problem
# azaroth never minutes in Annos (obviously) so happy to do so elsewhere
# ben_thatmustbeme azaroth++
# melvster kevinmarks: not sure I understand your point, try having a look at axiom 0 here : http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Axioms.html
# bengo azaroth++ Yes great minutes
# kevinmarks the point is that webmention has 3 properties. They don't need disambiguation
# bengo melvster I dont even know how you could add a namespace to the x-www-form-urlencoded. Propose something to illustrate it.
# kevinmarks I'm counting vouch
# azaroth +1 to proposals that illustrate solutions
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86900&oldid=86896
# bengo Now... supporting JSON-LD in addition to x-www-form-urlencoded for more complicated use cases. That's interesting
# kevinmarks That Axioms page does not mention namespaces.
# kevinmarks melvster: I suggest you read http://microformats.org/wiki/namespace
# bengo Oh the irony of reading "Namespaced content on the Web has failed." in an http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml:p tag
# bengo It's all good. You can succeed even after you've failed
# kevinmarks I'm all in favour of namespace fans prepending invisible implied ones to make themselves happy, where I object is when they expect us to put them in our documents for their benefit
# kevinmarks FTR, I din't write http://microformats.org/wiki/namespace
# kevinmarks I wrote http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag which uses URLs as namespaces
# kevinmarks and the web axioms don't mention namespaces
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# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86902&oldid=86900
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# bengo Added: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Examples#Livefyre . Should that page be in under Socialwg?
# kevinmarks as I said, I wrote the rel-tag spec that used URLs for tag namespaces http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag#Tag_Spaces
# kevinmarks however in practice that ahs been superseded by the use of # alone to indicate tags pretty universally
# bengo How about a page under https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax for stuff relevant to http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/, including relevant libraries or implementations or mappings?
# bengo Seems like each Working Draft should have a wiki page
# 
tantek bengo - or even flatter, just under https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/
# bengo k
# bengo well. I feel weird putting a company name and product on the main page
# bengo ah ok
# bengo I don't think I can make a new page
# bengo oh wait
# bengo I forgot how wikis work
# kevinmarks melvster: I think you must have very poor reading comprehension
# kevinmarks yes, they are query strings. perhaps you should learn how URLs work https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.4
# ben_thatmustbeme melvster: its a spec... when fetching something over http, do you need a namespace for "User-Agent"?
# ben_thatmustbeme its on a specific endpoint
# ben_thatmustbeme me neither
# ben_thatmustbeme wat?
# kevinmarks melvster: do you have a private namespace that redefines words like 'scale' to mean something different from everyone else?
# bengo melvster you can create pull requests to illustrate considerate namespacing https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io
# bengo Also this now exists https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Activity_Vocbulary
# kevinmarks typo in the name there bengo
# bengo Thanks
# ben_thatmustbeme well now we need a namespace for 'http' crap, we need urls for our urls :P
# bengo Oh and I didn't notice the move button until I created the proper one. If anyone can delete the old one... please do
# Loqi Bgoering made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Activity Vocbulary]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86907&oldid=0
# Loqi Bgoering made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Activity Vocabulary]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86908&oldid=0
# kevinmarks not sure what rfc5988bis has to do with html relation types http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#linkTypes
# kevinmarks yo dawg, I heard you like namespaces, so I put a namespace in your namespace so you can have URLs in your URLs
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# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-12-01]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=86909&oldid=86901
# kevinmarks csarven: I've been trying out microformats based previews, eg http://www.unmung.com/storycard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcsarven.ca%2Farchives%2Farticles
# bengo kevinmarks Looks like some updated styling since last HWC? or no
# kevinmarks the storycards are trying something different from the user hovercards
# bengo ah i see
# bengo Ostensibly a user's hovercard could show a storycard for their latest post?
# kevinmarks yes, in fact I do that too
# bengo Just grokking. Cool
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# kevinmarks though I don't put the featured images in there
# kevinmarks I do the name/summary display
# kevinmarks though I need to work out hwo to handle tentek
# kevinmarks as he has post names that can be entire essays
# bengo I think you want to add:
# bengo (or something similar)
# kevinmarks lets see fi that helps; I may just need to truncate the name in the source text
# bengo Its nice because the text-overflow: ellipsis will tell teh browser to do that for you, regardless of font-family, size, and container width. Text truncation by character count will usually only be optimal for certain assumptions.
# kevinmarks except I'm relying on flexbox to grow them, and they grow as big as the screen